more savvy, less speed

[cvb]

was on a real high after loose jumping on Saturday. She was a bit crazy but was just clearing fences like a pro. We took it up to 1m before she started slowing up and thinking about it a bit more. I called a halt at that because its only the 4th time she's jumped.

But then I got over confident and found out the hard way what happens when you put too much pressure on and don't release it at the right moment.:(

I was doing some ground work in our indoor school and we were doing fine. Doing a little sideways work in walk, which we've done before. And I decided to up the stakes by asking for a little work in trot.

Fine going to the right, but more difficult to the left. Just asking for one final repetition before calling it quits, put a little pressure on to the left, got a tossed head, kept the pressure there and suddenly WHAM she kicks out at me. I turned away as I saw it coming and got kicked on my back. Then she tears round the school, rope trailing, doing a panic.

I know it was really my fault - for putting too much pressure on too soon. And not backing off when I saw she was uncomfortable. But boy - I am not going forget that lesson quickly !

I guess one thing I still find confusing is when to be assertive and when to back off. When am I being a predator, and when a leader ? Guess I need more practise to work that one out....

[mikka]

Ouch! Hope you're not in terrible pain.

[cvb]

I have part of a hoof mark on the left side of my back ! And of course this time of the year they have studs in their shoes too :(
So it was pretty difficult to find any comfy place to lay and sleep last night.

Now I'm still pondering.

Yes - the lashing out was telling me she was not comfortable and that I had not listened to the early signs.

But the reaction was a bit of a temper tantrum, not just a 'no' from her.

So I'm having trouble working out the difference between being an assertive alpha and a pushy predator ? Obviously I was not particularly succesful at being a assertive alpha, cos I got kicked !

I still think I was in the wrong, because I should have worked on getting the basics better and more accurate before taking it up a notch. But I don't think that means I would back off applying any pressure at all.

I guess I'll understand this better with time.

[mikka]

Hi cvb, please refresh my memory, how old is your mare? What kind of work have you done with her?

On the weekend I watched a young horse being worked on the lunge. She went beautifully for about half and hour then started tossing her head about in objection. Eventually, she totally decompsensated and threw a huge tantrum. The trainer said something similar to what you say - that she should have stopped on a good note. Her assessment was that, being young, the mare could only sustain short bursts of work and, while willing, didn't have the maturity to hold it together for longer periods.

Don't know if it's related....

(Hope that ouchie heals quickly)

[Rakeli]

What's she like normally? Ther's a horse I know that will kick whenever she wants too, but if my pony kicked it would either be me pushing him or he was in pain.
If she's normally gentle, it was probably her suddenly seeing you as a predator, after she'd accepted you as not one! A bit of a shock for her!
How long did you work her for?

R

( glad your not just blaming it on her )

[Kerry's Partner]

Horses. They teach us more than we ever realise I believe!!

I'm not being obtuse or deliberately difficult and it's clear that the terms you use belong to some form of natural horsemanship BUT I need to ask a question.

What is a pushy predator? Predators kill and eat their prey - that is my understanding anyway. SO I don't understand why you want to balance being like that with being like an alpha mare (in relation to which I'm also sorry to say I have my doubts about [the concept that is]).

[ros]

Hey Sandra - my feelings precisely!

Horses run away from predators because they're scared of them. Horses also get out of the way of their alpha peers because they're - well, dang it yes, they're scared of them too! I want my horse to respect me, but I certainly don't want him to be scared of me. You don't often like someone you're scared of, do you?

Horses can make friends with animals of other species. They know the difference - they're not that stupid - but they can still form relationships. They know a human being isn't a horse, but they can have pretty good relationships with us. If they have the intelligence and the inclination to try to communicate with us, while knowing we're NOT horses, isn't it rather patronising of us to try to act like other horses? Who do we think we're fooling, for goodness' sake!

I don't say we shouldn't make the effort to show the horse that we're trying to understand some of his language, but I'm darn sure he doesn't expect us to understand every signal he gives any more than we expect him to be able to read Dostoievsky. That's probably why horses are so patient with us - they've twigged that most humans are at least three sandwiches short of a picnic!

As far as schooling is concerned, I want my horse to enjoy it. I want it to be a partnership where he does what I ask him because he enjoys pleasing me, and also because it makes him feel good about himself. I believe Merlin and I have that sort of relationship - obviously things don't always go according to plan, but we don't have a nervous breakdown if we get it wrong occasionally, and he's allowed to have his say when he feels he needs to.

I don't ever think of myself as a predator, and I only think of myself as a leader if Merlin isn't sure about something, like walking through a puddle (wuss :p ). The rest of the time I consider us two friends doing something together - works for me.

[Shiny McShine]

If you want to train the horse he has to understand what you are asking of him. Horses don't understand english, they can't read a book... so obviously we have to communicate our messages in their language.

If your horse has kicked you then it seems the difference is not between alpha and predator, but between alpha and beta ( or whatever the lower rank is). Horses do not stand and face predators, they run away. This is because predators act swiftly.

You were annoying your horse and she acted as the 'alpha' by saying "take that". The head toss as a sign that she wanted to take control of the situation.

[cvb]

OK. She's 7. Quarter horse type and mature physically. One problem she has, confirmed with a chiropractor, is that her right hip is slightly out. This affects canter transition and lateral work in one direction.

Its not bad - just that I know what is causing a slight one-sided-ness. And it is being worked on.

She is a character with a bit of a temper at times. She is not dominant in the field with other horses - she was bottom of a group of 6. But also had a real "I'm not giving in" thing when we tried to introduce her to a new field mate who is young too. Neither would give way.

Normally her attitude is great - she loves work and really likes being praised. But a bit like the little girl with the curl in the middle of her forehead, every so often she can throw her toys out the pram. Its not cyclical at all. And normally we can work through it.

The only other time she has kicked out like this was when I was on board asking for canter and she objected by kicking out with the right hind at the walls. If you are not near the walls, she does not do it. Its like the whole thing becomes too much mentally and she just blows a fuse. Kicking the walls appears to be like her stomping her feet (to anthropomorphise). Give her a bit of time, come back to, and its normally ok.

In this situation I was asking her to do lateral work on her tough side. Did not realise she was about to blow her fuse. Once she floored me, she then freaked out and ran around the edge of the school, with the rope trailing her. She was coming for where I was (against the wall) and redirected when I called out so she missed me. Then stopped and stood still. She did not want to move because of the the trailing rope. So I went over to her, and we did a little circling work just to calm things down. She is not a mean horse and this was not a 'mean' kick. I don't think she expected to make contact with me, I suspect she was aiming for the boards.

"Pushy predator" - maybe this is just my label for a particular type of behaviour, but predators apply and release pressure in a different way to prey. Mainly because predators are trying to catch something to eat - losing it means they go hungry. Prey are trying to escape, not escaping means they die !

As humans we are a bit of a mix of both... But in this case my confusion is that both 'roles' apply pressure. So actually I was not wrong in applying pressure, but probably wrong in how, when, where and also in not releasing the pressure correctly. (My initial reaction was that I should not have been applying pressure at all - it was only on reflection that I realised this was an over reaction). It is not so much that I want to be one or the other, just that I want to have a good relationship with my horse and not get kicked ! (and not put her in situation where she feels she has to kick me to get the message through).

Whether I was wrong in that I was trying to be alpha but am not recognised by Fifi as such. Or wrong because I was applying it too strong and too soon... Thats what I need to work out to try and avoid the pain of getting it wrong !:eek:

[ros]

I do think there's a subtle but clear difference between applying pressure and giving encouragement. The difference is one of attitude and timing, and I'm quite sure horses pick up on it. That's partly why I prefer to THINK of myself as encouraging rather than pressurising - it makes that little bit of difference to how I actually execute something. If I'm THINKING predator or alpha or whatever you like to call it, my actions are subconsciously affected.

But I'm not convinced, cvb, that what happened to you here was actually anything to do with the alpha/predator thing: I suspect you hit the nail on the head when you said you just hadn't twigged that your mare was about to blow, and you pushed her over the edge! Simple as that. I reckon sometimes we try to over-analyse things, and the more intelligent we are the more we do it (that's why I tend not to :p ).

[Dizzy]

With the experience's I had with my mare, who is a boundary pusher, but can and normally does have exemplary manners. I have to divide how I treat her. When she's testing her feet, I use bossy, assertive, body language, but only then.

When I'm schooling her, I invite her to respond. If I can't get my message across, I back off, do something I know she's good at, and praise, and find an alternative way to introduce what I want, using praise, not bossy body language.

Though I do want to be the leader, I don't want to be the enforcer, I want her to want to do what I ask. I think once you've established that you are leader, you should be teaching aids, not that you are the alpha person. You want the horse to understand and respond to your aids, as a willing partner. I think we should always remember, we are not horses, and horses are not human, we need to find common ground and work from there.

I'm by no means bad mouthing body language whilst schooling, but I think you should only use enough to remain in charge, so that you are inviting the horse to respond, if it doesn't work, you've lost nothing, take a step back ,and try a different tac. But if they do respond, praise, praise, praise.

Education isn't about domination, but about being a sympathetic teacher and developing understanding relationship and from there creating a trusting partnership.

Lesley

[chapsi]

cvb,

"flight or fight", the nature's law on handling stressful situations. Animals respond to stress in either way.
When my horse first attacked, he was being pushed a bit too much with lungeing by a friend of mine, and he reacted fast and sharp like lightening.
He pushed me to the ground, trod over my body to charge at my friend with bare teeth and flat ears. He bit him so hard on his should, that even today, 5 months past my friend still bares the marks.
At the same time, the yard's owner used to lunge him as well, but lightly, without asking too much off him in the beginning. My horse respects that man in a way, that when I lunge him and he misbehaves, just the sight of that gentleman makes him go like an angel, smooth and keen!

[chapsi]

Leslie, I agree with your points of view.
However, just a little thought, perhaps you can shed some light. My horse is a cunning, lazy, testing little sod. With him, I find that he responds well to voice encouragement a bit on the rough side, but if I praise him nicely "well done", "good boy", that sort of thing, immediately either he misbehaves or stops doing what he was asked, as if he thought: "oh, good, mum is being too nice again, I can do as I want now".
He reminds me of disturbed behaviour' children, who find it hard to handle positive things or praise. I used to work in children's homes and I saw this pattern over and over again.

[ros]

That's a very interesting comparison. Do you know your horse's history, Chapsi?

I wonder if clicker training might help here? I dare say a lot of people would decry the use of treats with a horse that might on the face of it seem the kind that would find it easy to take advantage: however, perhaps food for him would be a more tangible reward, and given at the right moment, along with a click to tell him exactly what he did to earn his treat, might make him view pleasing you as something positive to work for.

Just a thought.

[chapsi]

Ros,

I have thought about clicker training, although I don't know much about it, except the principles behind it. However, as my horse is a real BITER, I had to overule that solution. Two horse trainers (Kelly Marks and Leslie Desmond) both recommended that under no circunstance he should receive treats/food by hand.
As regards his past, he was sold to me as a sweet angel, and looked like one too. He was "skin and bone", in such a state that he was like a charming puppy, licking, following us, appealing to us with great big eyes.
He tests all the time, and I feel clearly that when he does what I ask is because he wants to! With men (riders he perceives as potentially aggressive) he tries it on a little bit, but a harsh word is enough to make him stop. Yes, in a way he is like a disturbed teenager, who bullies those he feels safe with.

[cvb]

Hi Chapsi

This was not a flight ot fight situation. Once she connected with me and then had the rope 'chasing her' - then she did a bit of flight. But up til then it was just something she was finding a bit tough.

So she 'expressed' herself. My mistake was being in the wrong place at the wrong time. She was actually just kicking out, rather than kicking me.

The kicking out is more likely to be her right leg - and it is her right hip which is very slightly 'out'. So hopefully this will resolve as we get the hip sorted and things get a bit easier for her.

When something like this happens, there is a small part of you that takes it personally - but then I worked out there was nothing personal about it. And my next task is work out how to know how much I can challenge her to do more and when to stop.

Ironically, normally I back off too much. I've been taking canter transitions really carefully as right canter is tougher for her. But then had a whole 40 min lesson on nothing else last weekend and she was great and really improved. She can actually do more then I tend to ask.

She definitely has a temper, but is not mean at all. Serves me right for preferring horses with a lot of character ! You makes your choices.....:D

[Mossy]

A horse who is a friend and partner ---
The rider asks them to do something [ Go on the bit. do a shoulder in, or whatever] The horse co-operates, or not and depending on why the rider assesses the situation and asks again from a different direction.
A horse who is a subordinate in the same situation --
is "made" to do the same thing and the reason for the objection, lack of understanding, pain etc is totally over ruled.
I rest my case but the partner ship is much more forgiving and respectful when either half has an understanding glitch.

[Kerry's Partner]

Well said Mossy.

[Dizzy]

Oh! Chapsi, you have got your work cut out for you. I'm no expert, I've had my fair share of problems.

One thing that catches my attention is that you say say he responds well to voice encouragement - but a bit on the rough side, then misbehaves or stops with praise.

Obviously I don't know the situation, I don't know what additional aids he's getting along with your voice. But if by rough voice encouragement you mean your voice is raised, and tone sharp, he will read it as 'pressure on' and view you as 'she who must be obeyed' and thats not a wholly bad thing for strong minded souls. But that means when your tone softens, he'll read that as 'pressure off' and if his manners aren't great and boundaries are grey he'll break them.

I would work him inhand and close, keep my voice polite, but firm. When he over steps the boundary, give a sharp 'no' and either back him up or circle and then ask again. Don't lose your rag, be the epitomy of patience, work him using a long line, so that if he throws a strop, you can eek out the line, and either use the remainder of the line or a lunge whip to send him forward. Don't try to stop forward motion or reprimand it, a good temper tantrum can be awesome to watch, don't let it change your intent, let his tantrum run its course,but keep him going forward and keep giving a tug to keep him on the circle. Don't let him turn in on you, with each tug say 'whoa', eventually he will llsten - its incredibly tiring charging round on a circle, as he slows eek the line back in until you're back at his side, and then give praise if it happens again, let it, go through it all again. But don't react, if he's strong get a friend to help you to anchor. Just keep saying 'whoa' in the same tone, and when you've worked your way back up close, praise. Make bad behaviour his descision. Always end on a good note, regardless of how little it is. Its surprizing how tiny improvements mount up.

Also don't label him with being a lazy, cunning little sod. He may well be, but that gives you an excuse to accept the unacceptable if you know what I mean. Begin with small goals, don't put a time factor on them, but don't move on until the simplest things are easily achievable.

With the biting, thats a dreadful thing to deal with, pad yourself up well, a couple of thick coats, gloves and a hard hat. I've never had to deal with it thankfully, but with nippers, I bump them with whichever part of me is closest, normally elbow or bum. A couple of good elbows on the nose end convinces them its a no go area.

Whether my comments help or not, all the best with your horse.

Lesley

[Kerry's Partner]

Biting and nipping. I was shown just last week to move closer (with kindness and gentleness) I did this and it worked. This week there is no biting or nipping. MY HORSE WAS HURTING and that's what she was trying to tell me. I was taught both how to deal with the "symptoms" - with kindness and the causes. Put things right and now no biting or nipping and my horse wasn't hit by me throughout the entire time.

[Dizzy]

Kerry's Partner, I'm really glad that you have found an answer to your horse's bitting problem.

I do feel that your post implied that my way of dealing with nipping (as I'd said I've never had to cope with a confirmed biter) was harsh. I have never hit a horse in my life.

I said I bump them, but I only bump then when they are in my space. To nip or bite, they invade my space. The bump consists of moving the part they have targeted to nip, sharply back towards them, making it unpleasant for them, and less painful for me. I also give no reaction other than the bump, as nippers thrive on reaction, they do it attract a response.

Its very common in young horses, who are teething, and do by nature test the boundaries. Bumping is a non aggressive way of gaining respect for your personal space. For me to have a trusting relationship with a horse, it must respect me and my personal space - I always respect them. I only defend my space, when its invaded, and I do it in quickest, most obvious, non agressive way possible, nipping it in the bud as soon as possible.

I'd love to hear more about your horse,

Lesley

[Kerry's Partner]

Hi Lesley,

I'm sorry I thought you did suggest that Chapsi gave her horse a couple of good bumps on the nose with her elbow. Kerry would definitely think I'd hit her if I did that.

[chapsi]

Leslie,
please explain to me, how can I successfully and effectively "bump" my horse, when I am so small/short and he is so big/strong. The first attempt I tried to use what was suggested by Kelly Marks (push him away from your space) concerning biting, I couldn't get him to bugge, and I feel he laughs at me, at my ridicilous attempts of looking big and dangerous.
It's really frustrating. He knows well I am a small person.
By the way, this week he bit the new groom (nothing serious). He sussed that this young man was small, shy and gentled mannered. It was a way of warning him: "watch out for me, I am in charge". Whenever he is dealt by someone the first time he tries his intimidatory repertoire. "Pegasus strikes back"

[cvb]

Chapsi,

don't know if this helps. But one of the level 1 (basic) Parelli blocks is like doing the funky chicken ! Bend you arms and make like a chicken :D

Then I think the kind of block Lesley/Dizzy has suggested is like half a funky chicken. ?!

[Sue Carnell]

Trouble with the Kelly Marks advice was it's all very well pushing your horse out of the way, but, horses are into pressure creatures, so we have to teach them to move first, or pushing them just makes them push back and not think at all.

Especially with horses who have been hit, or a handler has acted aggressively, a more passive, but confident method can be useful.

I believe my mare is a natural alpha. This means that she's excellent with teaching unsocialised horses how to behave. She's had to do this a few times now, one of the disadvantages of keeping a horse at livery, though it's actually very funny and very little effort involved on her part. She might play with the horse first, on her terms of course. Then when she's fed up with playing, if they still persist in harrassing her (and more often than not they don't anyway), far from attacking them, she simply turns her back on them and backs up towards them in a determined way, but it's quite funny, she looks almost resigned. Here we go again, another one with no manners. She pushes her ample backside into their face. She then carries on and pushes into them, making them back up, or almost fall over. If they move around, but not away, she'll back into their side, or their rump. Of course, although not a large mare she's still a lot bigger than us! She then tilts her head and looks back at them, as though to say, "Yeah, And, what are you going to do about it then?" If she had an obvious eyebrow, it would be raised. I've not yet seen another horse do anything other than suddenly find an interest in the grass a bit further away from her. She uses the same method to keep everyone away from the gate, when she decides she ought to come in first. The rest of the herd don't even attempt to argue if she looks as though she might take a step backwards, she just has to look at them. I'm very lucky she currently seems to agree that I'm at a level on a par with hers!

She isn't shod though and any horse turned out with her to learn their lesson in herd behaviour and socialisation has shoes off and introductions over the fence that kind of thing first too. Any horse who might seem really dangerous wouldn't get to go out with her. She has never been marked, or kicked, or bitten.

Anyway. I teach biting horses how to move first. So, I'll teach them to yield to pressure. Then, wearing enough clothing that it doesn't matter if we get it wrong, I allow them to make the mistake. When they do, I don't jump away and/or flap, I step calmly into them, then put my hand at their girth and behind their jaw and move them sideways, or back and away. Making sure to move their feet, at least their front feet and be very blase and uninterested about it. Usually takes a couple of goes at most, if it's going to work.

This may have been what Kelly Marks was thinking of Chapsi, but you'd need to teach the horse to move away rather than into pressure first, as we aren't as big and strong as even my little mare. You can also use the handle of a whip, or something like that, to help your reach. Not aggressively, just as an extension of your arm. You'd have to accustom him to it first, so he's not afraid of, or reactive to the whip.

A horse can only really learn too, if he's in learning mode. Not feeling angry and frustrated about something, or ready to explode for some reason, perhaps if he's been stood in for a couple of days and is anxious about that. That kind of thing. This would need to be dealt with first. Of course, he shouldn't bite anyway, but if a person wants to teach a horse that it isn't acceptable behaviour, then it's best if he's in the learning frame of mind.

Sue
sue@eclipse.co.uk

[Dizzy]

Kerry's Partner, I do see where your coming from, but put the shoe on the other foot. Imagine, you are a young horse, and you being led by a person, who respects you, doesn't pull or jab, who gives you clear aids, who is patient, consistant, but firm, who also makes allowances and consistantly gives clear explanations for your misunderstandings, but because you are young, easily distracted and full of yourself, and your gums are playing you up, you think you'll gain relief, or relieve your frustration, or it might be just fun to give your human a playful nip.

As you home in for a nip, your person either draws thier elbow back to meet your mouth, or steps back towards you so that your attack is hampered, but your nose is bumped, making your naughty reaction uncomfortable for you. But because your person hasn't physically or verbally reprimanded you, you are left with the conclusion that nipping folk is uncomfortable for you. If your horse regards this as being hit, then simple good manners and respect are at issue, as it wouldn't have happened if they hadn't nipped in the first place.

Chapsi, I have recently been reading Kelly Marks's book and she does have a basic training procedure, which involves being able to touch your horse anywhere, teaching it to respond to pressure, and teaching the horse to move in any direction.

As Sue Carnell said pushing a horse that has not been taught to move away from pressure, especially when they are being naughty, will infact cause them to lean on you and invade your space, and then they can easily take the upper hand.

You need to go back to the absolute beginning, age has no relation to how they should behave, nor does how they behaved previously. If thier behavior isn't pain related, you need to establish a relationship where you respect and listen to each other.

One important point to bear in mind is that your body language and aids should move the horse, not the other way round - don't let him push, pull or drag you. If you feel you're struggling, get some professional help, don't risk your health or your confidence.

All the best,

Lesley

[Sue Carnell]

I think there's a difference between stepping into your horse and their meeting something, an elbow, a brush whatever, when they go to nip, from the idea of deliberately bumping them with your elbow. Deliberately bumping them with your elbow would be the same as hitting them, kicking them or various other things, your elbow and hand a foot, same thing. If they bump into an elbow, a hand a foot, then fine, they did it to themselves and you haven't physically reprimanded them, a part of you just happened to get in the way. I think that there are cross purposes here. Deliberately elbowing your horse I believe is a waste of effort. Their happening to run into your elbow and your then moving their feet is something entirely different. May sound like semantics, but I don't think it is and I don't think the horses would see it that way either. Thanks for clarifying what you meant Lesley.

These things are more easily taught and learned through example than the written word though and I agree that Chapsi should seek professional help, if she can find the right sort where she is, if she's struggling.

Sue
sue@eclipse.co.uk

[Peace]

Originally posted by Dizzy:
I also give no reaction other than the bump, as nippers thrive on reaction, they do it attract a response.

I have been suspecting the same thing, but everyone at my barn thinks I'm nuts! I'm so glad you said that!

My pony, Quanah, is only three and a half and is kind of puppyish. Pushing him away, or, as my instructor does, giving him a little slap on the muzzle, just seems to make him re-double his efforts. He's not being mean, I don't think (we're definitely talking "nip" here, not "bite"), he just seems to think the reaction makes the game more fun. So far, standing very still and looking him in the eye works fairly well for me. He'll wind up just touching me with his nose instead of nipping, and then he'll dip his head for me to scratch his neck.

But he has no idea how to move away from pressure! I can see where this would be an extremely useful thing for him to know ;) Can y'all recommend any good books?

[Steve.R]

Almost all my Shetlands have been through 'nippy' (not nasty just experimenting) phases when they were young.
I have one that will still grab my jacket or run off with anything I leave near him (like buckets/brushes etc) just to get attention. I have taught him to 'drop' on command like a dog. When he grabs my jacket I put my finger into the gap between his teeth like you would to open the mouth for the bit. I open his mouth while saying 'drop it!' in a firm tone. Now I just have to say 'drop it' and he drops whatever he is stealing and comes back!

However I must stress - I am NOT suggesting you do this with a horse that is being agressive or bullying! Gallie just does it to seek attention and I have owned him since 6 months old so I know him very well!

With horses that are getting really stroppy I have found that instead of touching them you can use your voice. If you know that the horse has overstepped the mark and is being dominant/aggressive rather than frightened/in pain etc then you can chastise them by voice.

I did this with Pablo when he had thrown Stephen and was rearing over my head (he is 16.2 Irish Draught I am just under 5ft!) - I looked him in the eye, squared up to him and yelled at him! I lowered my voice until it was a growl and shouted, just a couple of words, but I really meant it and acted furious. In this situation I feel it was justified as I was actively in danger as was Stephen as he was on the ground so I needed to regain control fast. Anyway it worked, he come back down, and was like a lamb after that and in the following year I have never had to repeat it!

Esther

[Steve.R]

Doesn't this remind you of the debate over whether or not to smack children! ;)

I think that horses should not be physically hit as a rule but I am not beyond a reprimand when appropriate for something that is an obvious dismeanour (especially with the Shetlands - some of their behaviour is honestly just trying their luck to see how far they can push you). If you let them get away with everything they just get unbearable for everyone.

Esther