4 yr old & jumping??

[Thomas_Megan]

I have a very strong 4 yr old he is 16hh plus and generaly has a mind of his own! he is so lais back when you tell himof he really doesnt care! im teaching him to jump and it is goign well but he has a tendancy to buck after every jump, i think it is out of excitement but he does very big, high ones that always unseat me and i nearly come off everytime!

does any one have a suggestion to help with this iccle issue! ???


Meg x

[Skint]

Our 4 yo tb mare is a bit of a bucker! It's not malicious just excitable.

My daughter's RI told her to bridge her reins and sort of lightly rise out of the saddle (a light seat?) so that the horse could be creating merry hell underneath her but she would remain balanced throughout. From what the RI was saying sounds like you have to just ride through it and get them calm and going forward nicely.

She's still working on her flat schooling so she doesn't do much jumping so can't help with that.

[Thomas_Megan]

Thank you! that makes sense lol!
i shall try a light seat tomoz and see what happens with him, I still work on my flat with him and he is very well schooled for his age but he is just excitebale and when he gets excitable he gets very strong, i bridge my reins sometiem sout hacking i shall try it jumping!
thank you very much
Meg x

[shandy84]

What flatwork training has your horse had?

[Flash Harry]

Our 4 yo tb mare is a bit of a bucker! It's not malicious just excitable.

My daughter's RI told her to bridge her reins and sort of lightly rise out of the saddle (a light seat?) so that the horse could be creating merry hell underneath her but she would remain balanced throughout. From what the RI was saying sounds like you have to just ride through it and get them calm and going forward nicely.

She's still working on her flat schooling so she doesn't do much jumping so can't help with that.

Totaly agree with skint,4 is still fairly young,i think trotting poles / cavelletis are also great, keeping youngsters interested and varied (bit like a toddler) has always worked for me. Good luck :)

[inhs]

he's still pretty young, maybe slow it down and work on going over smaller fences better - without the buck. He might not be 100% balanced either. Try this, and go back to smaller fences, and dont do too much! :) When trainging a youngster to jump, its much more valuable long term to have them jumping with good balance and rhythm and confidence, rather than jumping big stuff badly.

http://irishnhsociety.proboards41.com/index.cgi?board=usefulinformation&action=display&thread=328

good luck.

[Thomas_Megan]

Thank you for all yoru comments and suggestions.

my horse has a lesson once a week with a highly qualified instructor for flat and she will ride him now and again as well. He has a very good trot and canter and is very balanced naturally. he was broke in at an early age as he had such bad behaviour and was so aggressive there was nothing else we could for him. He is very confident any way and can be over confident sometimes. he is a typical male horse.
I will try some cavaletties as i have not tried them yet.

i will let you all know how it goes tonight when i jump him!

thank you all very much x

[shandy84]

How early is early, 1, 2 ,3?

[Thomas_Megan]

1 & half! and when he hit 3 he was turned away for 3 months!
when he was broken in i rode maybe once a week on him doing really light really light work!!

& i know i am going to get penilised for backing him that early but when you have a very aggressive youngster and very big there is nothing else you can physically do!

so people say what you want!!
each to their ownn!!

x

[Cupcake]

Each to their own indeed. I think being backed that young and ridden for that long, until 3, is going to bite you in the butt.

But if you had no choice, then you had no choice.

Any pics?

[shandy84]

1 & half! and when he hit 3 he was turned away for 3 months!
when he was broken in i rode maybe once a week on him doing really light really light work!!

& i know i am going to get penilised for backing him that early but when you have a very aggressive youngster and very big there is nothing else you can physically do!

so people say what you want!!
each to their ownn!!

x

That is gonna be a major problem longterm to his skeleton. Well done.

I have had an agressive youngster, the thing is you don't just sit on them to make it go away you do you job as the owner and train it!!!

BTW have you had hios back checked riding him so young could well have damaged it which is what is causing ti to pull as he jumps!

[sancho]

Broken at 1 1/2 years? Oh dear, this is going to turn into one of 'those' threads.

[shandy84]

Broken at 1 1/2 years? Oh dear, this is going to turn into one of 'those' threads.

Wouldn't it be nice if they didn't happen, but so many people are inexperienced with young horses they back them far too early, if they had looked into it with a little knowledge they wouldn't do it and no threads would deteriorate because of it

[sancho]

Agree 100& Shandy84!

[Jay_Horse]

1 and a half!! :eek::eek:
I thought they were backed at 3-4, depending on their breed?
I wouldn't jump him, just trotting poles and working on trancitions to get his balance and rythm good will make him a better jumper in the future.
Agree with Shandy84

[casey]

I have no problem with jumping 4 year olds, although I haven't for many years, I have competed in age classes for 4/5/6 year olds. However, there are may precautions I took into consideration ie ground conditions, ensuring the appropriate flatwork was established and the horse was mentally strong and physically able to do the job required. But I suspect the difference is, I produced horses for the competition circuit, and therefore although not ideal, is a necessary evil.

I cannot agree under ANY circustances where a horse should be backed at 1.5 years old. I know people sit on very bold stallions at 2.5, but this is not a given.

For your horse, and I, given his history would get him checked out for a back problem before attempting to jump him.

[Skint]

i don't think early "breaking" or whatever you want to call it, does a horse any favours but it happens for a variety of reasons and you can only make the best of what's gone before.

Our TB is an ex racer, her last race was over fences, when we viewed her the dealer was jumping 3ft on her, when he told us her actual age, (3.5) we were shocked to see her jumping so high (or at all!)

On making the decision to take this horse on, there were two things we wanted to give her, time and a slow, thorough education.

It sounds like you're trying to do this in your own way, and I wish you luck, if yours is like ours, you'll need it! ;)

[shandy84]

It sounds like you're trying to do this in your own way, and I wish you luck, if yours is like ours, you'll need it! ;)

Seeing as she's had a number of ridden issues I really think that the early backing has been completly detramental and considering she backed him herself there is no way she's trying to take it slow!!!!

Get a back person out to check him, then take him back to basics, he is still only a baby even now.

[ameliet1971]

he was broke in at an early age as he had such bad behaviour and was so aggressive there was nothing else we could for him.
Have you ever taken a step back and wondered why your horse is aggressive and has bad manners? It would be interested to hear how your horse was handled from a foal and what procedures the handler used to teach him good 'manners'.

This isn't intended as a criticism Thomas_Megan, but by breaking down the training programme, you will probably find the cause of your horses bad behaviour and aggressiveness. Once you've found the cause, you can then work on helping him overcome the problem.

For now though, I would suggest concentrating more on building trust and respect from the ground before attempting teaching you horse to jump.

Good luck. :)

[Thomas_Megan]

Haaha!
those thread yes it is!

i asked for advice not to be slated !

its not down to inexprience, i actually know what i was doing!
yes his back has been checked and it is fine.

he was bvacked that early becuase of how he was and thank you for the people and their advice.

it is okay for racers to back their young at 9/10 months old but for a normal horse to be backed and rode waht 1 or twice a week it isnt okay!

Ye complications when he is older may occur but he is being retired early and i have never competed him!
he isnt ridden hard and i really dnt see the problem i asked for adivce!

His spine and his skeleton are fine, he has had the vet out for a checkup and he is very healthy!

Please do not slate any thread if you dont know all the facts!

[shandy84]

http://www.equinestudies.org/knowledge_base/ranger.html

I'm afraid you are uneducated in growth of the horse, try reading this and learning. And no it's not okay for racehorses to be backed so early and 90% are crippled aged 6!

[Thomas_Megan]

Peoples preception of backing and or breaking in is very different!

if you are all thinkin fully broken in or backed then no, he had his briddle and saddle put on and got use to this, this did take the aggresion away as he was learning and it was something new and then was worked on once or twice a week.

i do not mean he was ridden every day for hours, him being backed so young was reccomended to us as it had worked for this person and at that momment we had nothing to loose apart from limbs!

please do not cause arguments and judge me, it was a question for peoples view.

[shandy84]

can you actually not see the fact you overfaced himby backing him as a youngster could be causing his bucking and refusal to turn now?!

If it was recommended to me I would still see him as a baby needing ground manners no weight should have ever been on his back

[chickyd444]

Ye complications when he is older may occur but he is being retired early


why is he being retired early ? :confused:

[Gruntfuttock]

Its a bit late now to argue over whether he should have been backed and broken so early - the fact is that he has, so any further agument aobut whether its right or wrong is a bit moot. To say that there is no other way of handling a very large aggressive youngster is not true, but again, arguing over that is not going to help the current situation.

However, I would have to agree that the problems you are facing now could well be related to him being over-faced and mentally over-loaded at such a young age. I know you said he'd been turned away for 3 months last year. but I wonder if his little brain is just full right now. Can you lay off the jumping, and just hack him for a while, and let him de-stress?

We have a very similar-sounding horse on the yard. He turns 5 this year, but he's done very little really; a couple of quiet clear-round shows, he's been hunting twice...and that's it. The jumping stopped after his previous owner, who bought him as a potential SJer, discovered that he was really too laid-back to jump ! He belongs to some people who hack him out quietly at the moment and have lessons on him, and its really doing him the world of good.

[Skyhuntress]

http://www.equinestudies.org/knowledge_base/ranger.html

I'm afraid you are uneducated in growth of the horse, try reading this and learning. And no it's not okay for racehorses to be backed so early and 90% are crippled aged 6!

statistically, that's not actually true about racehorses, just so you know ;)

I personally do not agree with backing a horse who is younger than 3, but i wouldn't want to wait much beyond 3.5-4 years unless under extreme cases.

now, I'll tell you what's the problem with the site that you just posted. the article doesn't take into account that a horse does not physically need to be completely mature before starting light work. its along the lines of saying that because a child's growth plates have not closed, they should not be allowed to play sports.

like children, physical activity helps structure and strengthen their bones and cartiledge.

what I do think the article is trying to say is to be careful, which is one hundred percent right. you wouldn't expect your 10 year old child to be playing professional baseball 6 days a week, nor should you be expecting your three year old horse to be working hard every day.
but exercise and a variety of things that will stimulate their mind and muscles is good for them

[shandy84]

sykyhuntress I agree I was trying to emphasise a point and there are tonnes of racehorses that are unsound after work you only need to look at the companion only ads to see them filled with them.

I personally back mine at 3-4 not for any reason other than physically they are capable as you say of light work, not jumping, but hacking, little bit of light schooling etc. I would have thought that anyone in their right mind would realise 1 1/2 is unacceptable!

Gruntfolk, you are right but what i'm trying to explain to the owner is the bucking could be something inherant from the earlier "training" not the horse being "naughty" I would love to know what he's like to free school over jumps as that would help give a proper answer.

[AengusOg]

Haaha!
those thread yes it is!

i asked for advice not to be slated !

its not down to inexprience, i actually know what i was doing!
yes his back has been checked and it is fine.

he was bvacked that early becuase of how he was and thank you for the people and their advice.

it is okay for racers to back their young at 9/10 months old but for a normal horse to be backed and rode waht 1 or twice a week it isnt okay!

Ye complications when he is older may occur but he is being retired early and i have never competed him!
he isnt ridden hard and i really dnt see the problem i asked for adivce!

His spine and his skeleton are fine, he has had the vet out for a checkup and he is very healthy!

Please do not slate any thread if you dont know all the facts!

You said you backed him early because he was aggressive, and you said there was nothing else you could do...............that may have been because you were in his face, trying to get him to be something he wasn't at such a tender age.

You wanted advice...........here's mine..........there are many other things you could have done with a young horse to help him to be mentally balanced and easy to work with............find out what they are, and put them into practice before you ruin this horse altogether. :(

[Gruntfuttock]

Thomas_Megan, could you just explain why this lad is to be retired early? He's only just at the start of his ridden career and as you say, has barely done anything, so how come you are already planning his retirement?

[mody-chestnut]

i think tha megan has done nothing wrong!
yes she broke her horse in too early! but she had no other choice they did try everything els before this! and nothing worked so it was either break him in or sell him!

and anyway as she has said he was broken in but not ridden a huge amount! if he was ridden once a week for 30mins then that was alot of work!
the problems come wen u over work a youngster!
bu he has def not been over worked!
only now that he is 4 is she starting too work him more!

his ground manners now are perfect an he respects u and others!


elinor xx

[xloopylozzax]

well then you are just as mis-informed as the OP.

1 1/2 years is no age to start breaking/backing (whatever you refer to it as) a horse no matter what reason.
the problems they had on ground will be multiplied when ridden and will fester and turn into something much worse (like bolting, rearing, bucking etc)

all yearlings try it on and test their owners, its part of been a young horse. they learn boundaries and manners at this age in a herd situation with more dominant members (usually the owners) and their body develops and matures along with their mind.

try asking a toddler to solve a maths equation and see the strop they throw- this horse is no different.

i would be very surprised if this horse isnt already permanently damaged, i would chuck it out let it become a horse again and clear its mind then start again as a 5 or 6year old from the basics going very slowly once the underlying issues have been adressed.

some people :rolleyes:

[mody-chestnut]

can i just say that people on here dont know the full story!
they dont know wa situation they wer in!
so it isnt ** place 2 criticise!
cos u might not have been in that situation to know wat u would have done!

and anyway it has been done any damage the would have been done has been done an there is nothing ** bitching can do about it now!

so why dont you just give advise in what 2 do next instead of saying what she should have done!

elinor xx

[xloopylozzax]

so what is the full story and what was the situation.

IMO there is no situation to excuse the fact they broke in a yearling.

i am genuinely interested to see the whole problem and what they think is so bad to give them a reason to break it in!

[shandy84]

MC I am onto backing my fourth horse of my own (have done others for other people), I have been confronted with numerous issues with temperament and training, I CAN tell you that 1 1/2 IS THE COMPLETLY WRONG age to back a horse at. If it is misbehaving there is no way you back it that gives you all the more reason to improve groundwork first.

My 3yr old barges, bites and squashes do you think because of that I should back her asap? If you do you're wrong, the ideal in this kind of situation is to increase their manners on the ground and only when they are very very good on the ground do you venture onto backing them.

Unless you hadn't noticed most people did tell your friend what to do next, some suggested getting someone professional out to check his back, some suggested turning him out for a while and restarting with the basics, many suggested your friend try and learn more about the significance of an early backing as it is and could present many complicated problems for her along the way and her best bet is to be as well informed as possible as to what could arise in her situation.

My own personal opinion, take things back to basics, longrein him, walk him out in hand and take him on walk and trot gentle hacks, as well as getting a professional to check his back and teeth, then next year springtime, slowly increase his workload so that he is in light schooling and jumping as well as the other activities I mentioned above.

[mody-chestnut]

i know that 1 1/2 is not a good age 2 back a horse, but like i said befor it was last resort! that or selling him 2 the meat man!

shandy84 thank you! im sure that thomas_megan is taking on board what some members are suggesting!
but wat i am saying is that for those that are saying that she shouldnt have done it, is that its a bit too late now it has been done an nothing u can do about it now!

i think we should just suggest on what 2 do next an help her and the horse now!

[shandy84]

In that case she needs to realise people are trying to help and are explaining to her how his past is possibly affecting his future. I don't understand her comment about retiring him I will admit, personally I would have given him away to someone who could deal with his problems if I couldn't saying it was the meat man or nothing is wrong there are plenty of other options which could have been explored, as you say all in the past, but she does need to realise she was wrong and take responsibility for it rather than saying she had no choice :)

[kestrel]

Hi
Yes that is early but at the end of the day it doesn't appear to have harmed the horse physically. He sounds like he was a strapping lad, most likely stronger than a tb at that age.
Groundwork would probably help as it does appear that he does have some kind of an issue jumping. Maybe he needs a stronger bond with you, these big horses do take a long time to mentally mature in my experience.
I can recommend a good book "The ABC of Breaking & Training Horses" by Josephine Knowles.
I have used it to help back my youngster (he's 3) recently.
The author does go into backing 2 year olds (providing they are strong enough mind) bareback. Naturally a very strong trusting bond must be built upon before attempting this.
I sat on my youngster for very brief periods just before he turned 3 with no saddle (he's a strong welsh cross). I have only started to lightly ride him round school for about 10 mins 3 times a week in a light racing type saddle. He bears my weight easily but i am constantly watching for any signs of discomfort or distress. He feels wonderfully balanced. I do weigh less than 9 stone so he probably hardly notices me.:rolleyes:
As thomas-megan has already started their horse at a younger than usual age, it wasn't hard work at least, so no amount of ranting will change the situation. Everybody has their own opinion and indeed circumstances. OK not everybody is perfect.
It's a shame to see so much negativity on this forum.
Maybe we can move on to more positive discussions. I am not condoning breaking in horses very young just to clarify.

[shandy84]

When cruelty and risk of harm are involved nobody is going to praise for that.

A horse is not strong at 2, it could be a shettie or a shire they are all the same and I don't understand how some people miss that concept. As already stated she has been advised what to do with the horse.

[kestrel]

i do agree that they're not usually strong enough at 2. When i sat on my youngster he was almost 3 years & i only did that once a week.
In the book i had mentioned the woman was explaining that just lying across the horse's back, then when that's accepted sitting briefly then leaving it until the horse is 3 before re-backing.
That's really what Thomas-megan should have done.

[AengusOg]

i know that 1 1/2 is not a good age 2 back a horse, but like i said befor it was last resort! that or selling him 2 the meat man!

i think we should just suggest on what 2 do next an help her and the horse now!

Poor horse!

Bought by an inexperienced person who had no back-up support.........acts like a horse (naturally enough)..........becomes too much for owner.........nearly sold to meat man.

May even still be sold to meat man, by the sound of things.

The best thing she could do for the horse is sell him to someone who knows what they're doing.

[little lauz]

alot of people on here have the tendancy to deviate from what the person has asked in the thread, she did not ask about comments and opinions on backing and breaking at a young age but for help with a small issue during training!!!

shall we not stay on that subject.???

I empahise with thomas-megan for getting slated for backing early on i have a mare that was broken as a yearling for racing , But small amounts of work will not harm and to a degree will help development. Neadless to say my mare has not gone into training for racing .She is now 3 and looks way stronger and mature than most 3yo's.

Please to no slate people .. i agree each to ther own . Everyone is entitled to ther opinions but if you are going to express yourself a little more tact could be used.

What works for one may not work for another!

keep it up thomas-megan im sure the bucking issue will pass and he will grow out of it , id try the light seat If there no physical problem im sure he will grow out of it . Children a?
xx

[shandy84]

Someone irresposibly risked damaging their pony which could well be contributing to the behaviour of bucking therefore it is relevant to the post. Simple nothing childish about it.

[sancho]

With all due respect LL, the replies have been based upon the fact that as he was broken in so early the problems with him jumping and bucking etc are more than likely linked.

There is some great advice on here for the OP, like turning him away and letting him mature properly.

I dont think people have been unkind actually given previous threads!

Knowing that a horse has been broken in at 1 1/2 years old is likely to cause a lot of people on this board to be very concerned and sad.

[little lauz]

i agree ther has been some good advice............
but IMO if ther is no physical problem with the horse than why turn away ??again IMO id just crack on and work through it .Fine if there was a physical problem , i would turn away.

I havnt said that i think backing at 1yo is right ideally i think backing should be started at 3, My mare was was backed when i had her i had no say in it . As long as the horse healthy i have no problem. As i said what works for one may not work for another.

at the end of the day everyone feels differently .

From what i have read i dont think the horse is a welfare case as some people are more or less saying.

[Thomas_Megan]

Okay people!

This has to stop!

LL is right some people are making out this is a welfare horse and case. it is not.

everybodys opinion is taken in and yes i know everyone has different opinions and views okay and i know alot of you dont agree with this but i did what i thought was best and i know you lot well some of you dont agree.

People have different ways of doing things and im fed up of people only saying there is one way to do things. I have given you a vague issue nothing to do with what you are all slating me on. You are judging riders you know nothing about nor there horses history either.

Im sorry if this has offended alot of people okay but i am not going to take any of your comments to heart. i do agree with LL on sum things i mean the way people go about saying their opinions could be better put. People just remeber there is more than one way of doing things and just becuase you dont agree or you do not do it then it does not mean it is wrong or any more cruel okay! people have different reasons for doing things..
just accpet it!

ye if you think i have ruined my horse... your own opinion!
if you think he has back issues caz of me.. your own opinion

This is the last post from me for this thread so either accept the fact things liek this happen or please go about your business nicely!!

thank you
Megan

[shandy84]

I'm sorry you feel that way. There is only one steadfast rule with horses being backed that aren't racehorses and that is not under three. I'm sorry you don't seem to realise this no-one is being nasty just pointing out scientific fact. You asked why he could be bucking, there is a large chance it's due to his early backing. That's not nasty it's true it could be. I see you've avoided the retirement question, it is a shame really as the pics on your profile show him as a handsome horse, just try and listen if you post that's the point of posting