Too much kit?

[molly34]

As a follow on from the 'what' bit thread and previous discussions about Rollkur, draw reins etc, I was just wondering at what point people think all the different gadgets and kit are too much?

If a horse 'needs' tying down with draw reins to acheive an outline, or 2 different bits and a martingale to get round a Grand Prix showjumping course, or to be Rollkur-ed and/or slapped in a bit that makes its mouth bleed to perform a PSG dressage test..... shouldn't those riders be thinking about finding a different horse rather than finding a different gadget to make this one go better?

Discuss!

[xloopylozzax]

draw reins are not meant to create and hold an outline- they should be used for remedial schooling, short periods on older horses who are set in their ways and have built up muscle on the underside of their neck, making it difficult to get the head down, not for breaking youngsters or to achieve the 'outline' look.

martingales are neither here or there fitted properly they should only affect the horse when they enter nosebreaking teritory not to strap them down.

2 bits (in the dressage sense anyway!) are for refinement and clarity of aids not for bigger brakes. cant say anything about showjumping as i dont jump so it would be speculation and guesswork from me.

no bit should make a horses mouth bleed, that is rider error not the bit.

rollkur (from what i have read, not including youtube :rolleyes:) is the practise of overbending that a german (i think, cant quite remember its too early) rider used for short periods (seconds to minutes) during warming up only.
it was then copied after pictures were bounced around the internet and used for long periods during training or what they were aiming to achive anyway (overbending basically not in any form of true outline) it was used to aid the horse and rider at first when the person who thought it up understood what they were doing, the damage it could cause (which is why it was only used on PSG horses not youngsters who werent mature or developed) and why they were doing it, what they aimed to achive- which was making the horse realise it was easier and 'free-er' to just go into the normal outline perpendicular to the ground. it wasnt to make them look nice.

all top horses have quirks, if sticking a different bit in its mouth makes it perform well then so be it. not all horses like snaffle (in fact many dont) just as they dont all like jointed/french link/straight bar/mullen mouth/curb/poll pressure- the list is endless, you have to find what your horse likes that can be used in your discipline.
why should they go out and buy a different horse?

do you mind me asking what yours is ridden in? (not looking for an arguement far from it rather discussion) i dont mind saying that ours are first mouthed in a bit with keys, then are backed and broken in a snaffle (plain jointed eggbutt snaffle) tehy are then ridden in this bit for a year then they move up into a mullen mouth pelham (2 reins not roundings) they change bits because of what is required in showing, otherwise they would still be wearing snaffles. i have recently changed my gelding from a pelham to a double bridle because he likes small refined aids, not because he needs brakes.

[molly34]

draw reins are not meant to create and hold an outline- they should be used for remedial schooling, short periods on older horses who are set in their ways and have built up muscle on the underside of their neck, making it difficult to get the head down, not for breaking youngsters or to achieve the 'outline' look.
I know all that - but also know from several posts here and on other fora, and from observation, that sometimes they are (imo) 'mis'-used.
2 bits (in the dressage sense anyway!) are for refinement and clarity of aids not for bigger brakes. cant say anything about showjumping as i dont jump so it would be speculation and guesswork from me.
I was specifically thinking of 2 different bits rather than a double-bridle arrangement, or combining bits with hackamores, as appears to be happening more and more in showjumping (either that or I'm just getting more observant). I haven't got any issue with Pelhams, Weymouths etc used correctly.
rollkur (from what i have read, not including youtube :rolleyes:) is the practise of overbending that a german (i think, cant quite remember its too early) rider used for short periods (seconds to minutes) during warming up only.
The (in)famous riders are Anky Van Gryssen and isabella Werth, but there are a lot more less publicised people using it too. Again, what 'should' happen and what actually does seem to be 2 different things - eg there are documented cases of famous names using it for a lot longer than a few minutes. The more I looked into Rollkur, the more I learnt that the origin was all about control and aesthetics, and if you dig deep enough you'll find a lot of people 'defending' it as the best way for them to control their big strong horses and get them into a shape and obedient/submissive frame of mind. My argument would be, if you can't work with your horse effectively without resorting to Rollkur, then maybe its the wrong horse for you.

I don't really want to turn this thread into a Rollkur debate, there's plenty on here already.
do you mind me asking what yours is ridden in? (not looking for an arguement far from it rather discussion)
Not at all. :) She's in a snaffle.

[chickyd444]

very interesting :)

[xloopylozzax]

i dont have a problem with rollkur when it is used by people who know what they are doing, that damage it can cause and they arent just copying someone famous who does it (same can be said for parelli etc its all damaging if not done right)
its usually the persons choice to use rollkur, not something they read about and decide it might fix their horse, so i dont see why it is the wrong horse for them, if they are going to use rollkur anyway.

it is getting more common for people to combine bitted and bitless because IMO people want to buy into the whole bitless thing, its all about image when you ride professionally.
its fine them combining hackamores etc as long as the person understands the action of each bit and how they affect each other.

everything to do with horses is just understanding.
if you dont understand why or how to do something, then dont do it or get help from someone reliable until you both do.

[molly34]

if you dont understand why or how to do something, then dont do it or get help from someone reliable until you both do.
Couldn't agree more..... and I always make sure I understand something as much as possible before I choose to either use it or criticise it. That's not what this thread was intended to be about - It was prompted by the discussions of what professionals were doing at Hickstead, and one would certainly hope they do know how and why to use the kit they choose!

TBH I think we're coming at this from 2 different angles, and I really don't want this to turn into another Rollkur thread so I think we'd best agree to disagree and leave it at that ;)

[xloopylozzax]

i am approaching it from, if the kit is needed and used properly then there is never too much kit.

[Joyscarer]

To me too much kit isn't just abou the amount of kit, it is also about unecessary kit.

I once had Joy in a harbridge. I don't see a problem with that having gone through the usual physical checks and not found and answer. It did in 2 weeks what my hands at that time just weren't able to acheive.

The point is that once the problem had been counteracted I experimented very quickly with taking it back off again.

That one piece of tack would have been too much kit if I had left it on for longer than needed or incorrectly adjusted to force the head down rather than creating pressure only once the head was raised.

[chickyd444]

tbh i have tended to stear away from gadgets and kit, only because knowing me i would either over-use it, use it the wrong way or cause damage, so i have set my self the task of acheving an outline without the use of gadgets - it has taken nearly a year starting from square one and lots of schooling and dressage instructions etc but we are getting there, can now hold an outline for a few mins at a time:)

i have to agree that if used correctly they are fine, but i have watched the miss use of certain aids like a degouge and i have to say horse didnt look to comfortable:( he rides in this particular gadget everytime he schools. and always lunges in tight side reigns.

just something i prefer to stay away from, but i havent got any worries about others using gadgets if used properly.:)

[molly34]

i am approaching it from, if the kit is needed and used properly then there is never too much kit.
Fair enough.
Maybe I'm just being too fluffy, but I persoanlly don't like seeing a lot of tack and gadgets used, so I guess my point is that if a lot of kit really is needed to acheive the desired results, then maybe something in the horse/rider/competition combination needs rethinking instead?

I'm all for the right kit in the right hands, but I'm also for trying to do whats right for the horse, and sometimes - particulary with professional competitive riders - I'm not convinced that's very high up the priority list.

[molly34]

To me too much kit isn't just about the amount of kit, it is also about unecessary kit.
Absolutely! I'm thinking I should have said that in my op :)

[newforest]

i don't use anything, i ride in a bitless and just have bridle and saddle and schooling whip.

[learningcurve]

I had a twenty year break away horses and feel that there is now way too much kit.

Twenty years ago most people had never heard of the term outline and alot of horses today would be better off if it had far less importance.

I see so many horses even 4yos strapped down with too much kit to create a false outline.

My daughter has lessons on her young pony from a very good RI who is educating us both about how an outline is achieved from the back end, not the head.

Someone on our yard rides their pony in gag second hole,single rein, flash, and running martingale,she thinks his head carriage looks lovely,I think he looks tortured.

In expert hands alot of this kit maybe of benefit but too often it is used incorrectly for the wrong reasons.

[gordysgirl]

To me too much kit isn't just abou the amount of kit, it is also about unecessary kit.

I once had Joy in a harbridge. I don't see a problem with that having gone through the usual physical checks and not found and answer. It did in 2 weeks what my hands at that time just weren't able to acheive.

The point is that once the problem had been counteracted I experimented very quickly with taking it back off again.

That one piece of tack would have been too much kit if I had left it on for longer than needed or incorrectly adjusted to force the head down rather than creating pressure only once the head was raised.


Totally agree. Last year my TB was hacked in a 3 ring gag, with flash noseband & martingale! To me that was more kit that I would have liked, but at the time was necessary in order to stay in control & safe.
he had a couple of months off & when he came back into work he was in his french link snaffle with no flash & no martingale. There was no point in adding the rest until I knew whether they were needed. He has now become a little fitter & fresher & I am now asking more of him. He has been swapped into a hanging cheek snaffle. Although he had a flash on over the weekend, he has responded so well to it that I will remove the flash this evening & see how he goes. I think gadgets, extras, bits of tack etc should be thought about before using autmatically. For example I would like to think I wouldn't plonk a grackle noseband on just because i thought it would look good.

[ForestGump]

Forest is in a 3 ring dutch gag (rotary mouth piece) on the snaffle ring, grackle and running martingale.
In an ideal world I wouldn't have this on him, I'd be quite happy to have him in a snaffle and cavesson with no martingale but he is uncontrolable like that.
He wears the tack that I need to control him. In no way does that make me unable to deal with him but safety wise its whats needed.
Hes known to rear and the martingale just stops him getting his head up above the contact. All the tack I use is justified.

However, a martingale should only come into effect when the horse throws its head up so I can't see the problem with using one for looks. If the martingale isn't needed then it shouldn't effect the horse in any way if fitted correctly. Others may disagree with me though, but then thats the equine world for you! :D