pics of lou lou's feet

[noodle]

I have to be very careful so the pics were taken quickly, with most of the bedding brushed off. pics of front feet
Any thoughts on them please, the sole at the front of the foot is slightly lower than the rim, the farrier{not mine she was trimmed the day b4 i got her} has even filled some of the sole off too, is this normal, and her frog has lost alot of shape. do thse pics look like founder lami, the vets said to put shoes on her, which I am happy to do but farrier is coming in 9 days time, will 9 days time be ok to have them put on.
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a228/noodledoodle1974/DSC02624.jpg

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a228/noodledoodle1974/DSC02621.jpg

[Yann]

It's quite hard to tell too much from the pics, but if there is a bulge under the area between the tip of the frog and the toe it could well be that some rotation has taken place. If there's a dip in the wall just below the coronet band this is another sign that some rotation has taken place. You can't really tell anything for sure without x rays and your farrier ought to be asking for them so he knows what he's working with.

The feet don't look to be in great shape, the heels are very long and there's a lot of retained sole, the frog is sitting in a valley from the look of it which will tend to weaken it. I'm guessing from the shape that the quarters are quite flared as well.

I'm not any kind of expert on this but my understanding is that the foot should be trimmed to bring the heels down and any toe flare trimmed back as far as possible. This will start to normalise the position of the pedal bone in the hoof capsule. The sole under the tip of the pedal bone shouldn't normally be trimmed at all as it's the weakest point.

[Debbi G]

There is definately something going on there. Can you give me more info.

[Debbi G]

She needs bloodflow to her feet and with bute it stops this happening. Checkout www.equinescience.co.uk click on Nitroxide and with the Nitric oxide created in the body this will open all blood streams and get the product and blood to the foot.This wrks really quickly!

[noodle]

Can give you all the info you want.
We are devesated, we went to see Lou-lou as she had been turned out on field for 18 months at riding school.
She had VERY long feet, and to be honest ignored the feet due to living out.
Asked owner, the first thing I asked was has she had lami? twice I asked this, the answer was NO.
Waited a week for my daughter to ride her, due to timing ect, rode her fine ect.
Made an offer and agreed to collect her the following week, 7 days latter, but asked if they could have her feet trimmed because my farrier had just been.
picked her up next saturday. turned her out in very bare paddock, cos we have good grazing, brought her in during the day along with my cob, wednesday she seemed 'footy' when I did 5 mins on a lunge rien just to gauge what she knew, left her out that night, brought her in thursday morning, she was very very slow , came back late afternoon and she couldnt walk.
Rang vet ASAP, he arrived withing 30 mins WOW and said yes she has lami, she hs DEF had amli in past due to liners in hooves which had been partialy filled away and that her soles were touching the floor, gave her a jab, bute and more tabs, told me to box rest for a week then only 1 hr turnout a day.
My daughter is devastated as I am too, we can handle bringing her back itno work and making her better but our insurance dosnt cover lami withing the first 14 days, love her to bits but dont want to spending silly money and cant afford to spend silly money on her.

These pics are taken when she was ridden a week before.

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a228/noodledoodle1974/loufeet.jpg

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a228/noodledoodle1974/loufeet2.jpg

She is a very very loving pony, which makes this very hard and really dont know what to do.
Thewre is no point contacting the old owner because I signed a receipt to say sold as seen and ridden.
grrrrrrrrrrr.
Definatlyt made a right PRAT of myself and let my heart rule my head because My daughter has been part loaning a cremello 12 mare and when she saw lou-lou she fell in love.
If lou can live a good life, and ridden, just hacking but with very careful turnout/grazing muzzle, with us, we can handle that, but anything less wouldnt be fair on both lou-lou and my daughter

[Debbi G]

Really feel for you! Your pony probably was on bute when you first saw her, there are so many people out there that dont tell the truth and just dont care! as i mentioned in my previous note Nitroxide gives the foot bloodflow which is what your pony is lacking. Bute stops the pain but stops the bloodflow!! I work along side a scientist that is based in California and he is saving horses lives and I am so proud to know and work with him. Do check out the website and contact number is there for you to learn more. We have had such wonderful testimonials only last week. Lady had pony that cdnt walk in the end, 2wks on Nitroxide, she cant believe waht she sees. Hes galloping around and has shoes on for the first time in over a year!

[Debbi G]

Feel for you! There are some dishonest people out there, she was probably on bute when you saw her! As per my previous message, Nitroxide gets bloodflow to the foot, bute stops this from happening, it might stop the pain but wont resolve the problem just masks the problem and makes it worse! I work along side a wonderful scientist in California and he has saved so many horses lives especially with laminitis. Check the website and get the contact tel number, to find out more.

[Debbi G]

Apologies for my similar message to you, the first one wdnt post, so sent another one!

[MelanieD]

The growth rings are further apart at the heels, it does look like she's had laminitis. But the right diet and good trimming can do amazing things and worse feet than that have been sorted out.

You don't neccessarily need to shoe, if you have someone who is good at dealing with laminitic feet without shoes in your area then it can often sort the feet out better than shoeing does but shoeing can work to. It really depends on whether there's a really good farrier or good trimmer in your area.

[Yann]

Those feet look laminitic to me. Did you not have her vetted? :(

There is no reason with careful management that she couldn't be the pony you hoped you'd bought, it's a case of getting as clued up as possible. So long as you can get a good farrier or trimmer on board and control her diet she will be fine. My daughter had 18 brilliant months loaning a laminitic pony we managed to keep her healthy and got her super fit and only gave her up because she totally outgrew her, or we'd still have her.

Find out as much as you can on the subject:)

[jaydevon]

noodle, my 1st thoughts were bute/vettings, heres the options, ring last owner and send her back, your daughters clearly not silly or to young to understand why,
2nd option, pay a fortune, and you may one day ride the pony for a short time, but you will always have a battle against lami and your daughter will never progress,.

i want to be harsh and say yes your a prat, but i cant, having bought a horse with copd, i know i have the rest of hes life ahead with vets bills, and a condition that may get worse/end hes life, hes my boy and i dont regret it, if i nver jump or gallop him so beit,.,,,, i kind of know how your thinking, especially with your daughter, but i think you need to think long and hard, and act quickley. goodluck, and dont beat yourself up to much.

[shandy84]

Having got a pony who is prone to lami all I can say is it is manageable just a pain that you can't just throw them out and forget about them.

I really would persevere so long as she comes right cost wise it shouldn't be unreasonable after she's well a bare patch for her ;) speak to laceyfreckle she's had a month or so of lami with Lacey who turned out to have it before which she didn't know when she bought her.

also you don't know but stress could well have brought on the attack, give her some time.

[carthorse]

The first thing I'd do is get x-rays done so you know what you're dealing with. If your vet has a portable x-ray machine these shouldn't be incredibly expensive (I've just had some done & they cost less than £100) & they'll be very useful for your farrier to trim & shoe to. Possibly more importantly by letting you know the extent of the problem you'll have a much better idea of the final outcom, how long recovery will take & whether it's worth carrying on. It may be that the problem isn't as bad as you think, in which case think how much better you'll feel!

Laminitis is manageable as long as you're awar of the problem & prepared to put some work & thought into her management. Laminitics needn't be any more expensive to keep than any other pony, in fact they can be cheaper as you have every reason to avoid overfeeding ;)

My advice would be to speak to your vet & farrier, get them to talk to each other & work with them. If she was on the point of foundering she'd almost certainly be laying down a lot to try & take the weight off her feet & your vet would have been insisting you got a farrier immediately to get support on her feet. So don't panic, find out all you can & don't leap to any decisions.

Good luck.

[Yann]

2nd option, pay a fortune, and you may one day ride the pony for a short time, but you will always have a battle against lami and your daughter will never progress,.

That makes an awful lot of assumptions about the situation, many if not all of which may not be correct. It's perfectly possible that the pony was indeed sound as a bell when she was tried out, the stress of moving and possibly the different grazing may have tipped her over the edge. Either way, it doesn't sounds like the OP has much of a leg to stand on legally in respect of returning this pony to the seller.

It's perfectly possible for a horse to go dog lame without any significant damage taking place, the most positive outcome is that she'll come sound and just need her grazing restricted. The white line looks intact for a start. Keeping the pony barefoot and using hoof boots and pads initially for turnout and then hopefully just for exercise would be my choice in this situation.

[laceyfreckle]

Having got a pony who is prone to lami all I can say is it is manageable just a pain that you can't just throw them out and forget about them.

I really would persevere so long as she comes right cost wise it shouldn't be unreasonable after she's well a bare patch for her ;) speak to laceyfreckle she's had a month or so of lami with Lacey who turned out to have it before which she didn't know when she bought her.

also you don't know but stress could well have brought on the attack, give her some time.

Looking at Lou Lou's feet i would say she is/has been a chronic laminitic especially in the past few years. I have a feeling she probably had lami mildly but frequently and unnoticed while being out at grass at the RS.

I would also phone up the RS's local council and ask them to check the other horses in terms of condition of feet/care etc as it seems that Lou lou wasn't being looked after properly by them so i can guarantee they probably have some others that arn't either. (long feet like i imagine her's were = neglect on their part)

I agree with Shandy84 that having a laminitic does make things not as easy ie lacey cannot live out 24/7/365 now. I found out from her previous owner that before i had her Lacey had been a chronic laminitic and that stress was a factor in her laminitis. admittedly this last attack was laceys first since i had her though (nearly 2yrs) Lacey is now 100% sound now but i do have to check her pulses daily. she is barefoot behind and has heartbars on the fronts although you could have temporary stick on plastic shoes put on lou lou to support the frog if you don't want her permanently shod and go back to barefoot once her lami attack is over and she is sound.

I think in lou lou's case you would be wise to have the x rays done to see if there is any rotation etc ...choose a vet with a portable x ray machine and it shouldn't cost that much £175 at the most i reckon. (don't use paton & lee though;)) and at least you will know where you are. The bottom of lacey's feet look a bit like lou lou's at the sole but she didn't have rotation in the end.

I check lacey's pulses every day now and if they are higher then normal then she comes in for the day.

I plan to bring her in during the day in the spring and autumn months when there is most risk and to let her live out if pulses are ok 24/7 in winter and hot dry summer (if we have one!) Alternatively you might find (once she's better) bringing her in each night might be enough to limit her grazing intake enough as a preventitive.

I have found feeding Cal-Mag (or Mag Ox) (very very cheap) does seem to help as well. when lacey was on box rest she had acp as well as bute. Lacey is also having keratex put on her feet at the moment to help strengthen them as they have weakened since the laminitis.

I think you should persevere with her a little but i would also contact her previous owner and say to her that your vet (lie a bit) has said she has definitely had laminitis before so you would like to know why it wasn't declared when you asked. The sold as seen and ridden only works if you hadn't have asked about the laminitis but you would need to prove (witness) that you had asked. Rather then giving Lou lou back as she seems great in every other way for your daughter i would be asking for x amount back from her purchase price towards your vet costs although you will probably have to go through the small claims court to get it. I would intially put it in writing to her and send it recorded post (keep a copy) if over the period of a month you send three letters and she doesn't respond to any satisfactorily plus you can prove that the laminitis was asked about directly you may have a case for a small claims court. you must put in your last letter though that you will be taking the matter to the courts if a adequete response isn't given.

[eventerbabe]

those rings are characteristic of disturbed growth as a result of laminitis. Your definative answer to has she foundered is (a) get x-rays! and (b) feel the coronary band. start in the middle. if you feel any dperession THAT is an indication of founder. the broader the dent the worse the foundering. i can't comment on barefoot recovery of laminitics as we did not go down that route, the pain would have killed my pony. We went for heart bars and 2-3 weekly visits from the farrier. once we'd got rid of the poor hoof growth and got her feet stabilised thanks to the heart bars, we were contemplating 'normal' shoes or even barefoot but she sucumbed to grass sickness.

What meds is she on? i'm assuming it's bute combined with ACP (acepromazine)? the ACP will help aid blood flow to the feet.

[Yann]

the pain would have killed my pony

Very much depends on the details of the case but booting and padding, with pads customised to suit, can provide just as much if not more comfort than shoeing in the early stages of rehab.

[eventerbabe]

you said it yourself, you don't know anything about my horse nor her case history. as i said, we CHOSE the shod route (imprints then metal heart bars). worked for us as we had a sound pony with stable feet at the end of it. i never said i dismissed barefoot. i took advice from professionals who strongly advised against it due to the degree of pain she was in, the founder/rotation that had occurred and several other factors...

[martini55]

I think most people have answered what you were asking but I just wanted to add a couple of things. If the inflammation has gone then it should not cause your horse any problems to be shod. My horse was shod 8 days after she foundered. She didn't so much as flinch and was perfectly happy to be shod and was fine afterwards too. If your farrier is in agreement with your vet then go for shoes. But, if your farrier is happy for your horse to stay barefoot and that is what you want then stay barefoot. It's all good and well to say the horse will do well barefoot but without the right professionals you won't get anywhere. If you trust your farrier and he wants to shoe then go with that. It can be done in shoes, my horse is living proof of that. But barefoot can work for some horses- boots and pads would be a must in those cases though.

[Yann]

you said it yourself, you don't know anything about my horse nor her case history

I wasn't talking about your pony, I was talking generally. There's sometimes an assumption that not shoeing implies additional suffering, which shouldn't be the case. As has been pointed out you have to trust to the professionals you have available to you, whichever route they deem most suitable.

[eventerbabe]

There's sometimes an assumption that not shoeing implies additional suffering, which shouldn't be the case. As has been pointed out you have to trust to the professionals you have available to you, whichever route they deem most suitable.

i haven't seen that implied on this thread? i'm assuming the OP's vet/farrier etc. are experienced enough and have reason for suggesting her pony is shod. i'm assuming (from the pics posted) that the pony is currently barefoot? in such cases, yes, i think keeping barefoot (provided x-rays show that it's a viable option) might be in the best interests. But the vets must have reason to want to shoe?

to the op, yes, 9 days should be fine but definately get x-rays. no good remedial farrier will shoe without x-rays to guide them.

[noodle]

Oh dear I hope I havnt caused friction on here!
The vet didnt tell me to put any boots or padding on lou lous feet just keep her totally in her stable, she has wall to wall thick bedding and a plinth up in front of stable door to stop bedding coming out.
The dropped sole was already there and had been slightly shaved/rasped by their farrier, so this attack was fingers crossed mild.
She didnt lay down in pain at any time and was only lame when she came out the stable.Her feet were not hot but they we warmer than usual and she kept picking her feet, had slight upset tummy, hence I called vet out straight away, Lou isnt a chunky sec A and certainly isnt overweight in any way and a really fussy eater, nothing like the other sec A we looked after.The heat in her feet went away in 24 hrs
The vet gave her an injection, powdered bute, and said the best thing to give her was pernamax, but that it was expensive, I said yes give them to her because the quicker she had the right treatment the better for her.
Wasnt given any acp, told she has DEFINATLY had lami in the past. she has to be box rested for a week, then allowed out for an hr at a time on BARE grass, that she will aslo benefit from shoes to raise the soles off the floor.
I wanted to keep her barefoot, however I have considered that she is a childs pony and although my daughter understands about her condition, it would be safer and kinder for Lou lou to have shoes,just incase she is ridden on hard ground or my daughter accidently trots her on hard ground ect, plus being on a working farm the farm roads are very stony.
All this advice from everyone is fantastic, and I totally respect everyones different ideas.It will end up that I will be keeping my horse and pony in 2 totally different ways.
I have been keeping her busy in her stable with a football, a cauliflower hanging from wall and a suede, yesturday she started prancing around in her stable when she saw other horses being brought in.
I have got to go and sort out a suitable area to try and fence off then get Rosie to grass the bare bones off it for a few days.
The one last decission I have got to make{when she is better} is weather to put a grazing muzzle on her and allow turnout with others or do I keep her totally seperate in tiny well grazed area

[shandy84]

If it's a choice between company or muzzle I would muzzle her mine was and was far happier than kept alone, now we have the ideal situation in a lami paddock with my other mare, does mean I give Kira a good amount of hay at night but overall works well for us.

[laceyfreckle]

Lacey hates her muzzle so she is kept out with her friend and she comes in either during the day or night when the weather is like it is (rain and sun = high risk) i am hoping winter and high summer she can live out safely 24/7. just to add Lacey wasn't overweight when she got lami (if anything underweight) but it was stress induced so weight isn't always a indicator (especially as lacey showed no signs of lami last year when she WAS fat and living out 24/7. Checking pulses is a good way of seeing how much grass they can tolerate.

[Yann]

I muzzle mine when they're showing mild LGL symptoms, if you can find the right muzzle then they'll generally be a lot happier out with their mates than stuck immobile in a small paddock, the extra movement is good for them too once they're past the critical phase.

it would be safer and kinder for Lou lou to have shoes,just incase she is ridden on hard ground or my daughter accidently trots her on hard ground ect, plus being on a working farm the farm roads are very stony.

I totally respect your thoughts on this, I did the same with our loan pony for exactly the same reasons, but with hindsight I would have tried going with hoof boots and pads for working instead. Her heels grew very quickly in shoes and unbalanced her feet and they don't provide as much protection against concussion or protect the sole from sharp objects. Interestingly we took her shoes off one winter with the farrier's blessing and she never missed a step once the grass had died back, you might find that's the case with yours too. Good luck :)

[noodle]

Any suggestions please for a muzzle to fit a tiny sec A.
Pony size will DEF be too big

[martini55]

Have a look at the dinky rugs muzzles.

[shandy84]

another vote for dinky as my youngsters used to have them, they used to be fleece lined too so nice and comfy :D

[laceyfreckle]

the best friends muzzle is what lacey has. she's 12.3hh sec B

[MelanieD]

Shires muzzles come up small, my coblet is in a full size when she's a cob size in everything else, the cob size was much too small.

[eventerbabe]

pernamax is a new one on me. i know my mum has used the human form (a gel she applied to a dislocated finger!) but have never seen it prescribed for laminitis. I'm suprised you haven't been given the old bute/acp/asprin combo. bute to dull the pain, acp to increase blood flow and asprin to thin the blood and also aid blood flow. are you going to get any x-rays done?

Be very, very careful putting a laminitic on a bare paddock. sparse grass = stressed grass and could cause you more problems. the stressed grass will have a high fructan content, making it dangerous for laminitics to consume. She'd be far safer muzzled and out on regular grazing.

[noodle]

Rang the vet to have a chat about lou, he isnt worried about xrays for now , especially due to the fact that she isnt covered by insurance, and is happy to contact my farrier if needed.He is coming a week tommorow.
He wants me to have her feed shod/balanced using shoes with the smallest clenchers, he then said to allow a week and then very slowly bring her back into work.
Turning her out muzzled with the others would be far easier for everyone.
Now the vets said to start turning her out tommorow for an hr, no muzzle but on well grazed down grass.
If she is muzzled, what sort of time scale is she allowed to be turned out for?
I measured her and she is 19inches so is bewteeen sizes on the dinky muzzles.

[Yann]

Sounds like it was a pretty mild episode from that :) I'd be rather wary of the advice about turning out without a muzzle and would watch her like a hawk while the weather is wet like this. It's not normally advisable to leave a horse out muzzled 24 hours a day but you could reasonably work up to 12 hours I would have thought and see how it goes.

[shandy84]

Mine I used to leave out muzzled and bring in at night, if you want her to live out she could have the muzzle on 24/7 but you'll have to make sure she isn't getting rubbed etc

[Dizzy]

If they've had lami once, I wouldn't consider anything after as mild, I'd just regard it as you've caught it early and have a chance to remove them from grass and reduce the damage to thier feet.

My vet advised introducing grass back into the diet at 20 minutes a day, my farrier advised no grass at all!

My pony got it very early in May, she was given an injection of strong pain killers and anti-iflamm, plus sachets of Danilon, I had my Smithy out who trimmed her heels back as far as he could, and shod her with frog supports, her feet grew so quickly I got him back 3 weeks later, and he again pared her foot off to the living sole, which gave him a line to cut her heels back as far as could.

I don't have a stable, so she was fenced off in tiny square of my field, and I foddred hay, plus bucket feeds of speedi beet, good doer alpha and epsom salts, with lots of water available. After her 2nd shoeing, she was skipping round the pen.

My Smithy came last Wednesday and was over the moon with her feet, there was very little to take off her fronts, the rate of growth has slowed back to normal, and her hooves showed only healthy growth. It will take another 2 or 3 trims before the direction of her hoof growth returns to normal, her toes are still sheared off so that her foot is in balance.

I have started to give Hiedi grass, by moving her leccy fence approx 6 inches onto long grass after 6 pm. Every morning my heart has been in the pit of stomach - but so far she's been fine:D

I would ask for your xrays so that your smithy can see them when he comes, but also ring now him and ask his advise. He deals with lami cases probably every day.