How are criollos broken in?

[criollocrazy]

I know that the culture in Argentina is very different from here and that the horses are not treated quite as gently as we would treat them but my farrier has told me in graphic detail how they break in their horses and it was quite horrific...I won't go into the details! Can anyone tell me if it is really as brutal as he made out??? My poor Pepi!!

[Jen_e_Jen]

Did you get him in from Argentina or a breeder near you?
I wouldn't doubt that they have some practices that we would consider questionable, but remember that stories grow w/each telling and it's probably not AS severe as you were told.

[Great Auntie]

One thing we have always said, is that if a Criollo was broken really harshly, they would have issues with humans, all the Criollos I have met don't seem to have issues at all. They are very laid back & in general very relaxed & calm.:)

[Island_Girl]

my mare Portenia who, in her late twenties, when I lost her last winter was very head shy and wary of humans. She had been a Polo pony until I had her 8 - 9 years previously. She had huge unsightly scars on her near hind and I had been led to believe that it had been caused when she was broken in in Argentina as a youngster. Apparently they tie a hind leg to the head collar and then beat them until they submit. This is only what I have been told and may not be true, although I have been told this by two separate people. Although she was nervous with strangers, she was fantastic to ride, calm and always willing to please.

[criollocrazy]

Both Pepi and Soli came from Argentina...they are both head shy although Soli not so bad and Pepi is VERY wary of men...just makes me wonder.. One of my sisters' criollos also has issues with men BUT they are all so eager to please and take being messed around by small children completely in their strides...such gentle creatures in spite of whatever they might have been through!

[Chilli]

Traditional Gaucho breaking involves tieing an unbroken\wild horse to a post and hitting it until it no longer reacts to the hits.

The horse is then broken mentally, still goes on today a lot, the culture is a different world to over here.

This is a pic of how they are tied to the post, this horse was not broken traditionaly but it still not the gentlest.

http://i34.tinypic.com/2zgum1s.jpg

A better explanation

The traditional horse breaking consists in tying up the colt to a post and hitting him. Frightened, the horse hits his head many times before giving in. Then, they cover his eyes, they saddle him up and ride him.

[S_F_S]

Oh.

My.

Word....

[blues mum]

I worked with polo ponies in my distant youth.
It was well known then that many of the Argentenian ponies were " broken" using these methods.
I would have hoped that 20+ years on things would have changed:confused:

[criollocrazy]

That's what my farrier said...tying their head to a post so that they couldn't move and beating them...also covering their eyes...I just can't imagine it!!!:confused:

[chev]

Sadly it's not just criollos that are subject to this.

I know of a few people who halter break youngsters using the 'tie it up and hit it' method.

One of my fillies was halter broken this way; she still bears the scars, physical and mental, from such treatment.

[bexj]

And I know several Argentine trainers who wouldn't dream of such barbaric methods. So don't blame the country of origin, there's bad apples everywhere.

[criollocrazy]

http://http://i312.photobucket.com/albums/ll347/suecoombes/pepitpassport.jpgsorry, didn't mean to imply they're all like that...Pepito is covered in scars which made me wonder...was told they're from work with cattle but lots are where the saddle would've been...also possible from when he was wild but haven't seen another criollo with similar scars...will try to include picture from his passport taken at the time of his export...what do people think?

[criollocrazy]

http://http://i312.photobucket.com/albums/ll347/suecoombes/pepitpassport.jpgoops that didn't work...try again, I'm not very good at this http://i312.photobucket.com/albums/ll347/suecoombes/pepitpassport.jpg

[chev]

Are you sure they're scars? They look like sabino markings...

[posie]

Are you sure they're scars? They look like sabino markings...

that was also my first thought....

in terms of 'breaking them in' argentine/gaucho style - yes - they do still do that and there is worse done too....
i used to work with argentines in the polo world and the stories they told me of how they break horses in used to make me so angry when i heard it...

then again - it is in their culture and how they have always done it - they see no harm in it - it was from my western 'fluffy' perspective that i found it so appauling. pls do not think i justify their cruelty because of their culture - i just understand that different cultures have different practices to ours - i still think it is unnecessary and cruel

all of the criollo ponies that came over were impecibly behaved for one reason only - fear. yes they did become trusting and eventually begin to show perseonalities etc but to begin with they acted only how they knew how to - from fear of humans.

[Trewsers]

How horrid. Why would tying something up and belting it make it good to ride?! How awful - really cannot understand why they do this.

[marieb]

Sadly these kind or barbaric practices go on in many countries in the world. However, as others have pointed out, bad apples etc.

take a look at this video, if this horse was trained to these methods then its a testament to the breeds forgiving nature to be able to work with humans who have treated them so badly. This guy really seems to care about this horse, looks like he is talking to him gently and kissing him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmXKHyY_2D0

[posie]

Sadly these kind or barbaric practices go on in many countries in the world. However, as others have pointed out, bad apples etc.

take a look at this video, if this horse was trained to these methods then its a testament to the breeds forgiving nature to be able to work with humans who have treated them so badly. This guy really seems to care about this horse, looks like he is talking to him gently and kissing him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmXKHyY_2D0

it does seem a lovely horse - but this is where i am sceptical i'm afraid - i have see argies 'training' a horse to neck rein - and then go onto ride bridleless like this - notice how he holds his hand towards the head and click and the horse moves away from it - they start that reaction by hitting the horse on the head to get it to move away from their hand/stick - eventually they will move away as soon as they see the hand there....

yes there are 'good' non-violent gaucho's - but for me - all the ones i have met use these methods - as i said before - this is how they have done it for years and yes they do create quiet obidient horses from it.

i must say though - once the horse has 'learnt' from their methods they do not over use them - they teach the lessons hard - but usually only once from what i have seen. they are very quiet/caring around horses who are behaving/doing as taught.

i also do not doubt that they love their (favorite) horses - they just have a different views/method to us.

i do love criollo's and their nature - but i'm also sceptical that a horse can forgive - i think it can learn to trust again - but i don't think they have the ability to 'forgive' - that is a human emotion - not a horse one...

[criollocrazy]

the white splodges on his belly look like sabino markings but the marks on his back, shoulder and neck are definitely scars although they are less visible now than in the passport photo

[MagicSix]

Rocha too has scars on her back where the saddle would have been across her spine though it doesn't seem to have affectted her physically or mentally in any way.

I'm not too sure what I think of the breaking in process - on the one hand, yes it is a lot more brutal than I would do to my own but horses are brutal to one another, they will keep kicking each other until one backs down and in a way this is all that is being done. And, as it obviously works so well for the gauchos, if it ain't broke don't fix it. Quite hard to express what I am thinking in words so not sure this is coming over how I want it to.

[chickyd444]

just watced some horiffic stuff on y.tube - i think its sick ! :o

[MagicSix]

What did you search under on youtube, can't find anything

[posie]

just watced some horiffic stuff on y.tube - i think its sick ! :o

it's not nice is it?
i used to get so angry and be in tears when they were telling me what they did to break horses but they could not understand my feelings as that it is how it is done over there...
they used to get anrgy with me and my handling saying it's dangerous to be so nice to a horse and it is not a friend it is a working animal and should be treated as such...
there are always two sides to the view.
but personally - i could never treat a horse as they do

[Trio]

i must say it always bothered me as i'm a softie with animals. this is why i wanted a younger criollo rather than an older one that had been worked and broken in argentina.Archie was only 4 when i got him and he was broken in by the gauchos at the criollo farm- who are all very nice . He did buck the first few off though!!! ;)
He has no issues with people, no scars and is not headshy in any way- he's incredibly cheeky and you can tell he's not been handled roughly as he has no fear of anyone.
i think those practices do go on but of all the criollos i met (and i rode alot) only 1 was headshy and seemed fearful of people- most of them were pretty indifferent but certailnly not scared so i dont think that the ones that the criollo farm imports are necessarily broken violently - maybe its the ones that they keep out there to work the cattle etc that are.

[chickyd444]

Guacho's - they are the men who 'break them' -

basically i didnt understand what others were saying about beating them - what they mean is - the men tie the horse up tight - blind fold horse - get men on - and let em go - the man riding the horse, whips it and beats it untill it stops bucking, i should imagine the horse evetually has to stop bucking because its put its pelvis, neck, shoulders and back out - SICK, SICK, SICK - and they actually celebrate this over there -"ITS TRADITION' so that makes it ok -NOT !!!! :mad:

[Chilli]

Historically there was very good reason for the methods developed.

Today they are still used partly because of culture, partly for macho reasons and because they are VERY effective you just have to look at how people perceive the Criollo, I have ridden one or two horses in Argentina which I know had gone through this treatment(I mostly rode in Chile and they have different methods) and I would describe them the same as the people who are convinced their horses didn’t suffer this treatment describe their horses.

The method allow large numbers of horses to be broken in a small amount of time, it may seem like people just beating horses into submission but these are some of the most skilled horsemen you can meet.

That said I wouldn’t watch it done or let anyone near our horses who does practise it.

The methods are harsh but then so is the environments they live in, Patagonia and the Pampas to a lesser degree are nothing like the UK you wouldn’t catch me there in the winter the summer is not much better than the winter here.

The video is a pretty standard gaucho party piece, you see it quite a lot..

basically i didnt understand what others were saying about beating them - what they mean is - the men tie the horse up tight - blind fold horse - get men on - and let em go - the man riding the horse, whips it and beats it untill it stops bucking

I think thats one of the Rodeo events your talking about.

[CityCowgirl]

One of Monty Roberts' books describes the breaking process in detail - with pictures. I'm not sure this is the same as the Gauchos do, but looking at the scarring on my horse's hind leg, I suspect it is.

They tie several horses to posts, tie one hind leg up (hence Chico's scarring) and then beat the horses with sacks until they stop fighting. This can go on for several days. Then they get on them with the leg still up (the leg has now been tied up for days). I'm not sure at what stage they let the leg down, but it sounds pretty traumatising. Giacomo has no scars, Tornado has only slight scarring -more rubbed than actual cuts. Chico is badly scarred -suggesting he fought hard, and he is my biggest at 15.3 - but he is the friendliest - it makes no sense!

[mancha70@hotmai]

What did you search under on youtube, can't find anything

type in the search jineteada

[marieb]

Sadly these kind of rough practices are not rare and still go on in many countries, even in the USA.

Monty Roberts father used this method all his life, it was called sacking out. Monty was so appalled by how his father broke horses that he devised his join up method as a direct result of that. He spent many hours watching wild mustangs to learn how they communicate with each other and adapted his method. That is why the work of MR has impressed me so much, when you see the comparison of how his father did it (which was common practice then) and how Monty does, huge difference. You hear people on here saying how they don't like Monty's method as it seems cruel to drive a horse away! its a far cry from his fathers work, and the work of many traditional horse breakers.

Monty's join up method may not be ideal in some peoples eyes but it does not rely on fear or pain and his success rate is staggering. He has done a lot to raise awareness all over the world and some others have adapted their own methods from his, as people will continue to do.

People like MR have opened our eyes to cruel or unnecessary practices and we now question the way these things are done, which is all for the good of horses. Change comes slowly if it ever comes at all, but at least it is now.

50 years ago no one questioned it at all and if you had you would have been laughed out of the room or beaten with a chain if your father disagreed, which is how Monty's father reacted when he showed him his new method.

The way Criollo's are broken in is not something we in this country can have much influence on (In Argentina at least) What every NR member will and should be appaled at is the live transport of horses for slaughter in Europe and the USA. Just have a look on youtube for a very swift dose of the reality of it. We may not make the rules in this country but we put the people in power who do, and by doing nothing we silently allow it to continue. If we as horse lovers are outraged about the way horses are treated in our own country then there isn't a better bandwagon to be on than this, and we should all be on it.

[Grace O'Malley]

The way Criollo's are broken in is not something we in this country can have much influence on (In Argentina at least) What every NR member will and should be appaled at is the live transport of horses for slaughter in Europe and the USA. Just have a look on youtube for a very swift dose of the reality of it. We may not make the rules in this country but we put the people in power who do, and by doing nothing we silently allow it to continue. If we as horse lovers are outraged about the way horses are treated in our own country then there isn't a better bandwagon to be on than this, and we should all be on it.

The way horses are broken in Argentina is of concern to many of us who have horses we either know, or suspect, may have been handled in that way. Nothing about being concerned about one kind of abusive situation precludes also being concerned about slaughter or other kinds of abuse.

[Chilli]

Jineteada (based on the videos) is not horse breaking, it’s an Argentine Rodeo event similar is some ways to the bareback bronc riding in US Rodeos.

The behavior Monty Roberts observed in wild herds is based on a death threat, wild (maybe all horses) instinctively know that a horse on it’s own outside the safety of the herd is a dead horse, which is why a horse sent away from the herd negotiates to come back into the fold.

I have no idea if the method Monty developed from these observations still has the death threat in it, but it does have moving the horse away and the negotiation phase, and there is always talk of predators and prey. It’s easy to just think about the physical effects of a system and forget how a system can effect the horse mentally in ways we can’t imagine.

Actually historically European and US settlers have improved the way gauchos treated the horse, this type of thing disappeared over 50-60 years as did other things i don't think we need to go into.

It was observed in 1826 that after a brisk gallop “the spurs,heels and legs of Gaucho’s are literally bathed with blood” flowing from the horses wounded flanks, “the manner of riding all over the pampas is cruel”

[K.T]

It would be great if a real life "Argentine" person or "Goucho" could come on here and give us a proper view on things.:rolleyes:

[Chilli]

What a good idea a proper view Mmmm, do think it should be an Original Gaucho as in Native Indian from the area or modern Gaucho as in the job they do?

Do you think it should be from a Peon or a Domadore, I think a Domadore would be best as they were the specialist wild horse breakers.

Who do you think would know about the whole country? Someone from a Polo farm just outside Buenos Aires, someone from the pampas or someone from Patagonia?

Should it be what they used to do or do now? Do you include Martin Hardoy in what they do now or leave him out?

I guess it should also be in Spanish for a proper view.:rolleyes:

Or you could visit or read all about it from the many settlers and adventurers over the last couple of hundred years and estancia owners who employed these people to work their animals but them that wouldn’t count as you’re not from Argentina ;)

[criollofarm]

I haqve been watching this conversation for the last couple of days and can not believe how many people really think their horses from south america have been badly treated!?!

I have owned horses from South America for almost 9 years and spent long periods of time there every year but never have I seen the things described on this forum.
Yes there is the argentine rodeo(jiniteada) and can imagine not all would aprove but that is an argument about culture. And The horses used for this are in imaculate condition.
Yes there are bad people in South america....but I have seen more in Europe then in all my time spend over there.
Overall I think this conve4rsation has been well blown out of proportion and have to say I am absolutely shocked that a lot of the people talking are people that own a criollo!

Yes horses from South america have a different lifestyle then in Europe but I would never say bad. They live out in the wild for most of there first years being horses. Does not get any closer to nature then that. Unfortunately from being left for such a long time in large hurds you do get scars here and there and injuries are not treated like over here by vet. hospitals but basic with mostly water and purple spray. And before the horses leave argentina they are in amazing condition. Infact I have hardly seen any horses there that were underweight! They take a lot of pride in their horses.

I Have worked with horses my entire life and horses and must say they are my biggest pasion. Do you realy think that if it was all that bad over there I would go there every year, bring horses back with me and tell every one how great it is if all of your stories were true?! And to make matters even worse I only have people from argentina work for me because they are great horseman and have a lot of pasion for there country and horses. And understand like no one else what these horses are like and what they need in life.

The only diference is that in South america the horses are there for work or transport, ect and not as pets. But this does not mean they do not take very good care of them.

I think that a lot of people only judge of what they have heard of others or what they have found in the internet but unfortunately not from personal experiances. If only more people would go and see what it is like for them selves then there would not be so many bad stories going around as this stories can be very upsetting for those who know better.

These horses spend a long time on transport getting to europe and I would be lying if I said they looked amazing on arival but have never had one that did not fully recover from the weightloss and cuts and bruzes. This all caused by other horses who traveled with them as they travel in hurds not seperate. Some on the other hand arive looking like they have never left argentina. Survival of the fittest! The reason why a lot are nervous of people is because from the time of purchase in Argentina to the time they arive at their destination they do not get induvidual care but get hurded from one place to the next without headcolors and ropes. So it does take them a while to realise that people on the ground does not always mean run in the oposite direction.(Natural reaction) The whole proces takes 4 months or more so this is a long time for horses to be flight animals rather then working horse and handled regulary.

Non of my horses are afraid, traumatised, and mentaly scared. They are happy, willing to work, hardy, repectfull and my best friends but still horses, not babies!


I would love to attach some photo's but have not got a clue how to do it!

[MagicSix]

Well said criollofarm!!

Anyway, if you watch (according to Youtube and internet only this is, probably nothing like what the majority actually do) what they do in Argentina and what they do in Spain it is extremly similar but I don't hear anyone talking about how Lusitanios et al are broken!!

[landcruiser]

I think you are very well placed to know, Monique, and I totally agree that the horses at Criollo Farm are far from traumatised. My Pato is very sweet natured, curious, sensible, sometimes argumentative (ie he has his own opinion, and no sign of a "broken" spirit), just a delightful horse. He has a few scars - just where other horses might bite or kick when he was in the herds - but he's so laid back around other horses BECAUSE of his wild and natural upbringing.

I'm sure the traditional methods are still used by some - but compare that shortlived cruelty to making a nomadic herd animal stand on its own in a stable for 16 or 20 or more hours a day.... for life.

Let he that is without sin cast the first stone.......!

[MagicSix]

Oh yes, and I will take one of these 'broken spirited horses' (someone should really tell Rocha this, the little so and so:D) over the majority of others any day of the week

[K.T]

Have you seen what the South Americans do to Guinnea Pigs on you tube!!??? I cant look....:eek:

Well said CriolloFarm!

[Jen_e_Jen]

Sadly these kind of rough practices are not rare and still go on in many countries, even in the USA.

Monty Roberts father used this method all his life, it was called sacking out. Monty was so appalled by how his father broke horses that he devised his join up method as a direct result of that. He spent many hours watching wild mustangs to learn how they communicate with each other and adapted his method. That is why the work of MR has impressed me so much, when you see the comparison of how his father did it (which was common practice then) and how Monty does, huge difference. You hear people on here saying how they don't like Monty's method as it seems cruel to drive a horse away! its a far cry from his fathers work, and the work of many traditional horse breakers.

Monty's join up method may not be ideal in some peoples eyes but it does not rely on fear or pain and his success rate is staggering. He has done a lot to raise awareness all over the world and some others have adapted their own methods from his, as people will continue to do.

People like MR have opened our eyes to cruel or unnecessary practices and we now question the way these things are done, which is all for the good of horses. Change comes slowly if it ever comes at all, but at least it is now.

50 years ago no one questioned it at all and if you had you would have been laughed out of the room or beaten with a chain if your father disagreed, which is how Monty's father reacted when he showed him his new method.

The way Criollo's are broken in is not something we in this country can have much influence on (In Argentina at least) What every NR member will and should be appaled at is the live transport of horses for slaughter in Europe and the USA. Just have a look on youtube for a very swift dose of the reality of it. We may not make the rules in this country but we put the people in power who do, and by doing nothing we silently allow it to continue. If we as horse lovers are outraged about the way horses are treated in our own country then there isn't a better bandwagon to be on than this, and we should all be on it.

I feel that i need to clarify.

Of course, there are people here that are just as cruel as anywhere else. I don't personally know him, but my RI knows a man that hits his horses w/2 x 4 in the head!

I have sacked Jackson and many other horses out, but when I say sack out it is totally different from the description above.

I tie a plastic bag to a short lunge whip, and gradually get closer to them until I am able to rub it all over the body. The purpose is to get them less spooky w/strange sounds, etc... But I NEVER tie them to a post to do it! I have them in hand, and use the classic advance and retreat approach. I go in stages, and unless the horse is amazingly calm and laid back it's never accomplished in one session. Because of this and other things I've worked hard to desensitize him with, he doesn't spook at walking over wood or concrete, tarps(like to cover cars with), plastic bags, huge blue barrels, or much of anything else.

[Chilli]

CriolloFarm just to clarify are you saying the methods described are not tradition Gaucho breaking methods and that they are not still widely in use today?

As you suggest I have been to Argentina, spent time in Patagonia and the pampas, looked into buying a place over there as it’s my favorite part of the world (and the other side of the Andes) the scenery, the horses, it’s spectacular and have done a lot of research into the horses and horsemanship the method used over 200 years ago through until now and the changes for the better that have taken place.

The question was how do they break Criollos and based on my experiences and research into the country, culture and horsemanship with a view to moving out there what has been discussed on this thread is accurate and that’s all I can say.

All systems require the horse to submit, the methods vary and once the horse submits most system treat the horse very well indeed the modern Gauchos included although that was not the case 200 years ago.

If these methods are no longer in general use Martin Hardoy and others are wasting their time trying to change the way gauchos break horses.

[learningcurve]

4 months transportation!!!!! shocking

[Great Auntie]

Both Pepi and Soli came from Argentina...they are both head shy although Soli not so bad and Pepi is VERY wary of men...just makes me wonder.. One of my sisters' criollos also has issues with men BUT they are all so eager to please and take being messed around by small children completely in their strides...such gentle creatures in spite of whatever they might have been through!

When you say they are head shy, I was told that if you go straight to a Criollos head it will appear head shy, but if you approach & go to it's neck first, it has no problem, you are then able to move to it's head, it is just how they are trained. If you walk away from a Criollo's head it will follow you, but if you move away from it's neck it will stand. I watched a girl that was very used to Polo Ponies & horses in general, but not Criollo's, do this to a Criollo at the Criollo Farm and she walked away assuming the horse had a 'problem', just to satisfy my own curiosity, I went over to the same horse, but approached it's neck...there were no issues & within a very short time I could stroke it's head with out it pulling away or appearing frightened in anyway. Some people just don't understand they are different to English trained horses. The problem as I see it is that people need to understand the differences between Criollo's & English trained horses.

[Great Auntie]

Oh yes, and I will take one of these 'broken spirited horses' (someone should really tell Rocha this, the little so and so:D) over the majority of others any day of the week

Ha Ha! I agree MagicSix, Cicatriz definately hasn't got a broken spirit, but he's a very calm Horse too.

[western-saddler]

I have sadly witnessed this type of training in the western world in France. Tying the leg up, beating it till it submits, kicking mare whilst she was on the ground (as she had been tied up so tightly) all along her spine. :'( And afterwards she would still do as asked and seemed to trust. In my opinion though she was not trusting - she seemed mentally shut down.

[K.T]

I have sadly witnessed this type of training in the western world in France. Tying the leg up, beating it till it submits, kicking mare whilst she was on the ground (as she had been tied up so tightly) all along her spine. :'( And afterwards she would still do as asked and seemed to trust. In my opinion though she was not trusting - she seemed mentally shut down.

I really couldnt imagine hanging around a persons yard who was using these methods,:eek:

[western-saddler]

Luckily (for me) I was only there for 3 days. I only saw this awful training a few hours before I was due to leave. They were in the middle of nowhere and I had to wait for the taxi to come and get me. It was awful :'( All the horses were really shut down. The one I saw them 'work' was in as a training livery for a couple who were new to horses. This mare would pull back when tied up. So they trussed her up, and when she fell over they beat her. The owner and I were both crying. The owner was from switzerland and understood no english. I said to her 'Monty Roberts' and she nodded so I hope she understood there was another way.

Incidentally, this yard is considered to be one of the top western training/breeding establishments in France :mad: