Does this sound fair to you....?

[Monty]

I recently had a 'conversation' with Heather via e-mail, about well known Dressage riders, and the way they treat their horses in quite prestigious top-level competitions. No names mentioned . The conversation had started with a generalised request for advice, and just went on from there. Seems I have been a little naive, in my assumption that because dressage is a 'nice' discipline, everbody treats their horses with fairness and kindness like Heather does. Oh boy, was I in for a shock when Heather told me some stories about holed sides from spurs, and horses being whipped for not producing the desired results, and terrified horses being made to confront their fears by force, displaying distressing and dangerous behaviour as a result.

I was telling my husband about it. My husband is a farmer, and like the majority of farmers (I know there are exceptions) he is kind and caring with his animals.....he cuddles puppies for goodness' sake....he talks to calves, and the nitwit who claims not to like horses can frequently be seen leaning over the stable door tickling under Rebel's chin.And if there's a foal....well......forget coming in for supper while it's still hot.......his Lordship is out there whispering sweet nothings in my little welshie's ear, and admiring her newborn. I keep reminding him that THIS little welshie needs some attention too....but.....y'know! Men!

But what I'm getting at is: when I told him what Heather had told me, he said...."y'know, if that happened at the local livestock sale, RSPCA would be in like a shot, sale would be stopped and there would be prosecutions galore. RSPCA would be in their element, so would the persons who had reported it....why should the wealthy have it any different......?And he's right.

[LadyLimerik]

I absolutely agree. Just because the horse is successful in the sho ring does not make the methods the rider used to get there right. Just because they a so called professionals does not give them any right to treat the horse so poorly. If anything people with money should treat they're horses the best they can because they have the funds to spend on the horses happiness. You would think treatment like that would take something from they victory but I suppose it's all in the persons consience and respect for their horses.

[Wally]

What springs to mind when the word cruelty is mentioned?

Which pictures are shown when the RSPCA have been in and confiscated animals, whether it be horses, puppies from a puppy farm, ill treated farm animals or kittens from an old lady with breeding cats running all over the house. It's the pictures of filthy conditions, thin starved animals, and out houses and sheds which are falling down.

The public are not going to be wowed by Mr.Hyphen-Hyphen and his immaculate yard with spotless horses, in spotless boxes, with a yard where not a straw is to be seen, how can animals be ill treated with such "obviously" caring owners? Look how well they are treated, never a penny spared. Maybe a few under cover cameras would catch them out.

[Sue Carnell]

..but it does happen at the livestock sales? There's a campaign at the moment with volunteers attending sales and reporting cruelty. They too complain that nothing much is done about it.

What one person sees as cruel another doesn't necessarily too. Who's right? PETA would say we are all cruel for having horses (dogs, cats, animals) in the first place. The people whipping and spurring their horses might say Heather is cruel for using pelhams (they have).

People are often cruel sadly. Until they aren't and we agree on what is and what isn't cruelty there is only so much anyone who isn't cruel or who tries not to be can do about it. The rspca can only act within the law and should we really need laws to protect those weaker than ourselves, including other humans and children? It's a sad reflection on human beings generally I think.

Sue
sue@eclipse.co.uk

[chev]

The RSPCA actually have little power to prosecute, especially in cases like you've mentioned, Monty. We got involved with an "animal rescue" place about six years ago - they called themselves a charity although they weren't registered as such. It was run by a couple who'd inherited some money and bought a five acre smallholding. They then set about populating it with "rescued" animals. They had six sheep, three pot-bellied pigs, a dozen chickens, four dogs, rabbits, guinea pigs, five goats and horses.

The horses were the biggest problem. There was a coloured cob stallion (not rescued), a yearling Shire colt, a TBx mare, a cob mare, 9 shetlands, two retired ponies belonging to someone else and an aged Welsh gelding. Then they went to the sales and came back with 4 yearling Welsh colts as well. All this on 5 acres and no stabling.

One of the goats died, also one of the pigs (she was hit by a car and left in a pig arc), the sheep got "lost", two of the Welsh colts starved to death, also one of the Shetlands and the cob mare (she died in my stable after we took her to the vet as they wouldn't call him out); the rest were so thin and weak they could only just stand. One of the colts was dumped in a bin for the binmen to take.

We got the RSPCA in. It took him months to gather enough evidence to make a case, also to find a vet willing to testify (local vets didn't seem to want to take the case on). Just as it was about to become official they did a flit to Ireland.

Sorry for the length of this post - it still bugs me that they got away with the horrific treatment they inflicted on these animals. I rarely mention it now - this is where Gelfy came from. I always worry they could demand him back.

When cases like that exist (and it wasn't the only one on Anglesey - there was another "animal sanctuary" a while back that was possibly worse) I do despair that the competition horses who suffer vile "training" methods will ever be seen as RSPCA cases.

But no, it's not fair. At least ponies like Gelfy get another shot at happiness. The horses in abusive competition homes rarely do.

[Kerry's Partner]

I can't stand hearing much more of this without sticking my own neck out and trying to DO something about it - but I know every one of you has already done that.

Chev I think you are brilliant and everyone knows I think Sue and Heather are too.

[Rakeli]

I agree with you all.

There's a place not far from me where several horses are kept, by a farmer, I think. Their field is right next to a river, and during the winter it floods. The field is a sea of mud, there's no grass, the horses are thin and their hooves are crippling them, YET THE RSPCA WON'T GET INVOLVED!!! So many times have people phoned them, telling them about it, but because these horses get hay thrown at them every so often, they say they're alright!

I appreciate that the RSPCA is a charity, and these horses are not the worst cases, but AT LEAST the man should be fined! Something to give him the incentive to look after his horses properly!

Another angle on animal cruelty, how would you like to live in a cage? So many stables only let the horses out for a couple of hours at most! I'm sure that also counts as cruelty, an animal who NEEDS space and freedom.....it makes my blood boil!

If only horses could talk!

[Silver1]

Its not just dressage its everywhere.

When I went to the ETI nationals, the first thing I saw was a western show, it was a barrel race.

To be fair, there was one person who ran low 15's and the horse was happy nd relaxed, not ringing its tail or white eyed.

But the next one that came was another story. He tried to bolt forward and got caught in the mouth by the girl riding him. She snapped his mouth down (with a curb bit) sharply and gave him so little rein I thought he'd choke, and this made him just rear instead of bolt forward.

It was like, the only thing that was running through the horses mind was "If I run as fast as I can as hard as I can as soon as I can she won't kill me"

Then the bell went off and she kicked that horse as hard as she could and kept kicking and kicking and kicking until that horse hit the barrel.

Then she used all her force to wrench that horses head around and kicked his shoulder with one foot as if she thought he wasn't turning good enough already.

Then it was kick kick kick again till all three barrels were ran.

Then was he rewarded for his effort? Was he given so much as a pat on his neck? Nope, along with the kicking she took the popper on the end of her reins and flayed his shoulders. This was his reward for the effort he put in.

He did 16 seconds. He was beaten by the boniest sorriest looking nag you'd ever laid eyes on. (it had been sick) but the horse that won ran well because it was ridden well. Or so I think.

In the show jumping arena it wasn't much better. There was this little palomino, and while all the other horses were loafing (some people wouldn't even sit on their horses while waiting their turn to give the horses backs a rest) the person who owned this horse just kept jumping it and jumping it and jumping it over a practice jump.

There ws about 10 competitions and she stayed the whole day. That horse was never offered water, or food, he just jumped and jumped and jumped till he was walked into the arena and showed.

He never even once balked, or threw his rider, or ran away, he tried. The girl was disapointed because he didn't place first, but he WAS in the ribbons which surprised me.

I imagine that girl couldn't believe she lost after all that practice. But the people who showed their horses a little kindhess deserve hte win.

[Tumbleweed]

I used to do voluntary work for the RSPCA and saw first hand the frustration of the Inspectors when they couldn't prosecute an owner because they couldn't get a vet to back them.

I fostered a lovely coloured cob mare who had a tethering injury, and the magistrates let the owners have her back even though they pleaded guilty. Another coloured pony I fostered was just a bag of bones, I felt that if I blew on him I would blow him over he was that bad. He had been signed over so once he was in good condition he could be rehomed and did go to a sanctury because he was over 30. The witness disappeared because she didn't want to give evidence so the owner walked free.

The RSPCA are working to get a "Duty of Care" to all animals, at present animals are treated as possession in law and don't have a "Duty of Care". If this goes through parliament, hopefully things will change and they will be able to do more.

Quite often it is not that they don't want to do anything, they can't, they can't go into anyones property without a policeman with them etc. Road Traffic accidents are the responsibilty of the Police and not the RSPCA. A lot of the police will try and get out of this by passing the buck, but it is their responsibilty, so if you ever have to report an animal in a road traffic accident, don't take no from the police. It is them that has to arrange for a vet and pay the bill.

With stray dogs, they no longer have the contract to take care of them and it is now up to the local authorities to deal with these. Many people condem the RSPCA for not going out to a stray, but they are not allowed to by law. Any stray dog can either be taken to a police station or contact the dog warden.

The main problem with people who have money and horses are well looked after is proving that they are abusing them this is very difficult when they look in good condition, and you need good evidence. There have been cases when showjumpers were prosecuted successfully for banging the front legs with a pole, putting something prickly under bandages so if they bang the pole they felt it etc.

If you want them to take notice, take photographs and gather evidence to give them a start. They need the public to bring cruelty to their attention, and they are trying to stamp it out.

[kelsey]

My instructor says that dressage riders who spur their horses like that have to do it because they are so rough and ungiving with their hands that it is the only way they can get the poor animal to go forward. And that as soon as they do try to go forward, they get jabbed in the mouth again, spurred again, and the vicious circle goes on......she has seen a national team rider (Canada) schooling her horses at home like this - this woman's GP horse is known for going ballistic at shows. My instructor says it is because the horse has no confidence in the rider at all (from all the rough handling) and doesn't trust her to ride him through a stressful situation.

[chapsi]

What you have just commented about dressage competition riders happens here all the time with jumping competition riders. Only that it is more clear, out in the open and nobody cares. In fact, for most people the relationship between horse/man is translated into "domination/submission", instead of partnership.
Most of those jump horses are valued at several thousand £'s, and yet their lives are a simple misery - trailer/competition/trailer, occasionally a time span inside a stable. They are trained by professional trainers, their riders barely have a relationship with their horse (some just ride them with the competion in mind), and out on the jump course their mistakes/refusals are paid by merceless beatings with the crop and jabs in the mouth. I got to know a bit from all this backstage happenings, as I have friends who compete.
As bullring training, how many horses suffer from stress and fear? how many horses are submited to terrifying experiences? made to go at the touch of sharp spurs and other torturing devices. If you go to a bullfight, beyond the glamour look for the signs of horses with their bellies bleeding... at our yard there is a Luso/TB X, he had been sold to bullfight rider, he didn't endure the training and consequentely was left with a scared nose for life.
At least you have RSPCA, no matter how ineffective it may be. What about when in the name of ancestral costums and cultural heritage horses continue to be victimised?

[Kerry's Partner]

And I bet he has a boney enlargement which shouldn't normally be there about 1-2" above his nostrils Chapsi - hasn't he??

[Sue Carnell]

Bound to be the serrata in Spain or Portugal that damaged the horses' noses. Different culture over there entirely though.

There are many people who do think of their horses like a car or a motorbike, in fact would take more care of a bike. There's nothing anyone can do to change this I think.

I too have rescued a horse with the RSPCA and heard the complaints from the inspectors that the law doesn't go far enough. The inspectors have to act within the current law, or they would lose their jobs, the RSPCA would be finished and they wouldn't be able to help anyone. There are some decent inspectors out there, I think it's probably the same as anything.

Sue
sue@eclipse.co.uk

[chev]

Tumbleweed and Sue you are so right. We are lucky on Anglesey - our RSPCA inspector is good. But fairly often he cannot act because he has no power.

He dealt with a mare about five years ago that we reported after we found her in the garden behind a derelict house. She had no grass, the ground was frozen, there was no sign that hay had been fed and when he came out it transpired the mare was known to him. Her owner (a novice with no experience and less knowledge) had four children and was pregnant with the fifth. She had no job, no income, her bloke had left months before and she had nowhere to put the pony. Because the mare was not horribly thin, her feet were ok and he was unable to prove the owner had not been checking on her, he couldn't make a case against her. The best he could hope for was to persuade her to sign the mare over to the RSPCA - which carries its own problems in that there is no room there, or with the ILPH.

Eventually it was agreed that she should come to us and that the owner should pay £10 a week for her keep. It turned out that this mare was not 4 as her owner claimed (she'd paid for her to be broken the year before) but two and a half, and in foal to boot. In the six months we had her she cost us around £600. The RSPCA reckoned we'd be stuck with her. We never had a penny from her owner, who turned up after she'd foaled and reclaimed her. The RSPCA advised us to send a solicitor's letter claiming expenses or the mare in payment of monies owed. We did. A cheque arrived, Peggy went, the cheque was immediately cancelled. The RSPCA inspector immediately set about trying to claim the mare for us (more concerned for her welfare really) - owner came up with a piece of paper signing her over to her mother and no-one could do anything.

The foal turned up the next year in the sales, thin, wormy, feet in need of attention - RSPCA could do nothing because no-one complained. They couldn't check up on the mare - didn't know where she was. There has to be a complaint before action can be taken and even then the case has to backed up by a vet, and evidence of wilful neglect or cruelty proved. It's not as easy as it sounds. Until the RSPCA have more power I have to say I'm not a great believer in their effectiveness. The "charity" I mentioned earlier came back from Ireland after things went wrong for them there too. This is how Gelfy arrived here. Again, a foal they'd bred by accident starved to death and a Shetland mare was reported because her feet were curled up like Turkish slippers. When the RSPCA came out they simply said they'd just picked her up and were waiting for the farrier. In fact they'd had her over 3 years that I know of. She was in her 20s and carrying Gelfy's foal.

Lo and behold they left again a while back - this time bound for the Orkneys or somewhere - Wick I think. The condition of their ponies is fairly often explained by telling people they're rescue horses. They just neglect to mention they've had them for years.

[Nickie]

Hi everyone

This sort of cruelty makes my blood boil too - there are 4 lovely tempremanted horses down the bottom of my road. Their field is on a floodplane next to a resevoir, their owner only feeds them bread, hay and dolly mixtures - (I am not joking) a friend of mine (who was novice at the time) used to go there - sharing one of the horses - on a couple of days a week. I went with her one weekend and had a row with the guy over his version of 'wet bedding' - his version was was a bed up to his horses knee in excremant and urine! It smelt so bad - I didn't have to be closer than 100 foot from the stable before I could smell it. In the height of summer too. There were so many flies in that stable it was like fog. The floor was red and covered with flie larvae when we got to it!

Before the guy turned up my and my friend cleared the stable washed it out - put down a fresh bed, and let the horse stand out in the shade under a tree for a while. It took us the best part of the day to clean. She had not been out in three days - as that was how long he owner hadn't been down to check on her - my friend had been told she was grumpy and not to go near her.

The look on the mare's face - she was so unhappy. I felt so sad having to walk away after that summer, she obviously had never been loved in years - we think she may have been an old travellers' horse, she had rub marks down her sides and back. My friend left the field too. We called the RSPCA - but as the horses are not starving and not left out in the weather there is nothing they could do.

Now the remaining ones have feet are soo overgrown and cracked it breaks my heart to go and see them. There is a yearling in the field now too and he is such a cutie - I have half a mind to ask the guy if I can have him - at least the younger one would grow up with a chance then! The older mare who we cleaned out her stall - was swapped a week later for an amaciated grey yearling, who was subjected to the same treatment.

All my pets have been rescue cases.
My old rabbit Peggy - unwanted by her owner who went off to uni, just got let out in the garden and was not touched for over a year - we had her for 5 years and she died aged 8.
My dog Gypsy - who we lost nearly aged 18 years - who we had since 11 weeks old - was beaten and dumped in a box by the side of the road with the rest of her litter.
My current dog Max - a 2 year old Retriever who's owners kids got bored of him and so they just shoved him over to the RSPCA.

Our rescue services are there for cases like these - and when the law leaves them powerless to help - it just makes me want to weep. For the lucky few - the RSPCA are a God send. For the ones not suffering obvious cruetly and ones kept away from public view - they are the ones I really feel for.

Nicola

[Sparkle]

So many people have stories about this crulety! Doesn't this say something about horse owners today? At a stable where I used to ride, they had 12 school horses, all of which were used in 5-6 lessons each day, some horses more, some less. This may not be classified as cruel, but these were hour-long, walk-trot sometimes canter-jump classes (depending on the horse) with usually no breaks in between. In the stalls, most horses were wearing their saddles, awaiting yet another rider. A herd of instructors made all these lessons possible, and they never seemed to care that the horses were exhausted. If you had a lesson late in the day, it was not uncommon to have to push even the friskiest of horses hard to get them to move. This is why I left the stables. I think that is unkind, and I am suprised that with all the staff they had theer, no one objected.

[kelsey]

Good for you, Sparkle! If more people really opened their eyes to what is going on at some of these places, they would not be in business (and raking in the money, at that).

Your old place sounds similar to a place down the road from my work - it is packed with camp kids morning to night in the summer, and every night and weekends the rest of the time. The horses are in the same situation that you mentioned - yet all the kids who ride there go on our local message boards to say how much they love their favorite school horse, and how they buy colored polos for them at the school's tack shop. And there is a waiting list!

Meanwhile, there are probably about a dozen much better places within a half hour drive.

[chapsi]

Nothing is fair, nor it will ever be as long as animals are seen as source of income or as objects, used and thrown away.
I live in a rural area and due to my occupation I deal a lot with the local farming communities. As such, animal abuse makes part of my life. I consider myself as a sensitive person and consequently I suffer in silence. Here, animals have no souls and much worst no feelings.
I own 4 cats and a dog (all street rescues) and recently I accepted to be the "owner" of a young bloodhound who came crawling into our horse yard, half dead. He was skin and bone, had liver failure, anemia, had malabsortion of food, bad intestins, you name it. He can now bark, run, jump, and wag its tail. However, he now has mangies. But we'll get by.
Contexts are realities are different, but animal abuse is everywhere.
Surely we cannot change this world, but we certainly can make it a better place for the few creatures that happen to cross our paths.

[Heather]

Sadly folks, the RSPCA's hands and those of other welfare organisations, are tied. Unless a horse is virtually unable to stand/walk, they are virtually powerless to confiscate. I am one of the patrons of a small horse rescue charity in Sussex. They have had a massive rescue operation going on for the last couple of years of 48 ponies, being starved to death, feet curling up you name it, and still they have had to fight every inch of the way to get these animals out.

The law needs changing, and if we ever get this EE membership organisation up and running, it will be on the agenda as a priority to try to get the law changed. It needs a lot more publicity and also pleanty of public support.

Heather

[Kerry's Partner]

Well I can't see any other way than to get this (sorry) "EE thing off the ground" and if there is anything I can do to help please let me know and I will do my very best to help.

[chapsi]

What's the EE?

[Kerry's Partner]

Hi,

It's "enlightened equitation", which is Heather's philosophy and boy am I glad about that.