Puzzled by Laminitis. please help.

[FloraHoff]

My pony has just come down with laminitis and we can't work out why... even the vet can't tell us why. :confused:
She came to us in April/May time and was really malnourished. total 'hatrack' so I spent ages feeding her up (she was on hard feed, conditioning mix, balancer AND out on the grass). lol but we were careful not to overdo her :p She was slowly introduced back into work and everything was going absolutely beautifully. No problems/complications at all. Since building her up she's been living out and only fed on our own (we farm) hay. About 2 weeks ago she developed a dry cough that was no different whether she was at rest or being worked and since she'd been living out we put it down to a pollen irritation. I bought her Horselyx respiratory lick to see if that might improve things and 4 days ago i started her on Ventil-ate by winergy.... yesterday she developed laminitis!!! now the vet couldn't put it down to grass as her fitness levels are great and grass hadn't affect her when she was in poor condition, she didn't think it was stress related and had no reason to suspect toxins either. She also told me to keep her on the ventil-ate because she didn't suspect that either. :confused:
See i didn't know whether it was the ventil-ate that's caused it as it hadn't appeared before when you'd have thought it be most likely. Has anybody else experienced this with ventil-ate or heard of anything similar??

ideas.... suggestions anything is more than welcome please :)

[Bronya]

My mare developed it when on a starvation paddock amount of grass, in the middle of winter, while she was losing weight! No one had any idea why she got it either at the time. Previously she had summered and wintered out on rich grass, knee high at times, been overweight a couple of years before, on hard feed, the lot, no problems. At the time, she wasn't even on sugary hard feed - just alfalfa!

It seems to have been the start of her developing metabolic syndrome. I had huge amounts of trouble getting her sound afterwards, even on normal hay she's a bit footy. She has to have the blue or purple horsehage (or VERY soaked hay), and a little grass if she's been worked. Any more, and she starts to get ill again. It's a right pain and the only thing we've been able to put it down to is that she had problems with her teeth for some time (now sorted - tooth removed), so was quite a poor doer and had to eat lots of hard feed (so lots of sugar) for some time. They think that started the tendency and that it just happened one day and that was that. Only people's best guesses though - no one really knows.

She is now sound, full of health and happy once more, I just have to be very careful what she eats.

Yours could be similar (had to have lots of hard feed to put on condition + stress of being ill), but who knows?

[FloraHoff]

How long did it take for it to show in your mare?? because i'd just assumed that if it had been diet it would have happened earlier :confused: geh. i feel really worried about it at the moment because as i dont know its cause i dont know how to prevent it happening again. I'm glad to hear that your mare is doing ok now though. What you've suggested is very interesting, so thank you very much.... argh i hate how complex laminitis is.
You also mentioned metabolic syndrome, what is that exactly?? is it just an imbalance in metabolism? Because it seems just as random with how it affected you mare too

[Yann]

now the vet couldn't put it down to grass as her fitness levels are great and grass hadn't affect her when she was in poor condition

How severe is the laminitis? Is it just lameness or are you looking at rotation, frog supports etc. Is she shod or unshod? Only reason I ask is one of mine went dog lame with pulses and heat in the feet twice last summer, and the grass was exactly what it was, repeated spells of wet and warm. She was fit and the right weight and had no previous history of laminitis although spring grass did make her feet more sensitive, something that didn't really show up shod.

It might even have been the Horselyx thing, I think they contain a lot of mollasses and the extra sugar on top of the wet grass could have tipped her over the edge.

[HarveyDales]

The old style Horselyx thing tipped my cob over into laminitis the first time he got it 9 years ago.....

[martini55]

Most likely causes: grass or the horselyx (Im assuming it's full of mollasses), or the combination of the two.

[coss]

i'd also think the horselyx would be full of molasses and could have tipped the sugar balance.

[FloraHoff]

She's unshod, and has it in both front feet, when the vet came she decided it was only a mild case, but has put frog supports on her. She's on full box rest for a week; but is already walking much better. This is really helpful everybody, thank you so much for all the replies. :)

The horselyx is full of molasses. she'd been on it for around a week before i gave her the ventil-ate and it hadn't reacted but maybe that was what pushed her over the edge what with all this hot/wet weather too.....

It was just so discouraging that my vet couldn't tell me why she'd got it.

[Teazle]

Mine was a little footy for a while on stony ground, (though fine in the school etc), then suddenly very lame in one hoof in particular. Now, it takes hardly any time for her to go lame if she's fed the wrong feed or has too much grass - literally overnight.

Metabolic syndrome is when a horse becomes insulin resistant, so in order for the body to deal with sugar, more and more insulin has to be produced. This eventual overload of insulin can trigger laminitis.

[Yann]

She's unshod, and has it in both front feet, when the vet came she decided it was only a mild case, but has put frog supports on her. She's on full box rest for a week; but is already walking much better.

Chances are she will be totally sound very quickly, sounds very much the same thing as Rio had. With her it's very clear when there is any trouble brewing, she will be more footy than normal and have heat in the coronet band area and possibly slightly raised digital pulses too. Rain after a dry spell is always the worst time. Touch wood she's been absolutely fine this year so far, I've stabled her in the mornings, and had her turned out in a grazing muzzle in the afternoon and without it overnight.

I'm surprised at your vet, perhaps it was a misunderstanding? I suspect limiting grass intake, especially during riskier periods will be the way to keep your horse healthy and sound, best of luck for a quick recovery :)

[ellasma]

I agree with the others that it's probably the horselyx. They are full of sugar. When my youngster had to go on a controlled diet my vet told me to take away his lick due to the sugar content. He also told me not to give them to him again as they aren't really suitable for horses who's diets have to be monitored.

[luffers]

It's sounds like what Mac had, I sympathis with you, you look to a vet to give you answers and it is frustrating when they can't. With Mac all I know is the vets treated him for lami but are not sure if it was lami or not, they also said that it wasn't necessarily grass related, and he may never get it again.:confused:

[FloraHoff]

it's just horrible isn't it, and you dont know what more you can do either. I feel so sorry for her being in all the while, and bless her she's being so sweet about it.

She does get company during the day as thats when the others come in (her stable is only separated by a partition from my mums mare) but she was devastated the first night when she wasn't allowed back out with the others.

Hows Mac doing now? Its so unnerving not knowing.... grrr and its like... if they may never get it again then how were they allowed to get it in the first place. sorry, i know i keep ranting but i still feel really emotional about it, just as i was really starting to get somewhere with her.... geh oh well... fingers crossed its just a glitch and a one off.

[Flash Harry]

You will get there. My fella had LGL, back in March and after a lot of time and effort to get him right. Now he is in full work, muzzled in the day, in at night, 2 feeds a day of happy hoof, and spillers hi fibre cubes and the supplement Formula 4 feet, also wearing bar shoes (costing me a fortune!:):))
We also had no idea how he became laminitic, and probably never will. I`m sure you will be fine, it just takes time and the right management to suit your horse, best of luck:):)

[luffers]

Hi Florahoff

I was unable to keep Mac stabled as it was causing him more stress, but he had hardly any grass and i fed him old hay.

I made sure Mac was sound for about 2 weeks before I brought him back into work and then took him in the school nothing too intensive. I've been riding him one day then giving him 2 days rest, then riding him again and slowly increased his work. I didn't want to over do it as I have seen other people getting their horses back doing too much and they go lame again. Don't know if this is right or not but so far it has worked for me and today I hacked him out for the first time since and he did really well, I was so proud of him.:D

Mac is also unshod so I have started using Naf hoof and sole and this has also help with his feet.

Whilst we are still unsure whether it is lami or not I have decided that it is not worth taking any risks and I will look after him as a lami horse now, so hopefully any trouble can be avoided in the future.

Good luck with your girl, I hope she makes a speedy recovery.

[vimto92]

Found this;
http://www.horsefeeds.co.uk/laminitis.html

Hope she gets better soon,

x

[SO1]

Do you think your pony could have been a laminitic before you got him and that is why he was kept at a very low weight and that feeding him a normal diet instead of a laminitic diet caused him to get laminitis?

[FloraHoff]

it could be possible that she'd had it in the past.... i can't totally rule that out, because you can never really know how honest ppl are with you. But the condition that we found her in was not caused by diet control it was merely neglect. She was covered in lice and was literally eating herself. The boy who had her was a showjumper and we reckon she's gone arse over *** at a fence and so he just turned her away (in the middle of winter). But if she was previously a lamanitic would it have not flared up within a couple of weeks us having her?? i've had her a good few months now :s

[FloraHoff]

thank you very much vimto92, that site was really helpful :)

[FloraHoff]

Thank you everybody for the support and for being so encouraging :D

[coss]

my farrier recommends seaweed - especially for horse with/prone to laminitus...

[thrilsnspills]

hi, my horse lived in field for first 4 years of life hes a 15.3 full bread connemara and when he was 5 he came in from the field and the next day he cudnt walk he was in his box fo a year and a half due to laminitus n now hes on foundergaurd(from the vet) and lo-cal and outshine as recomended by baileys horse feeds n tuch wood hes been fine ever since hes ack competing bsja too hope this helps

[FloraHoff]

my horse lived in field for first 4 years of life hes a 15.3 full bread connemara and when he was 5 he came in from the field and the next day he cudnt walk

did you ever find out what caused it?? :confused: thats great that he's back on form now though :) well done!

[cvb]

Found this;
http://www.horsefeeds.co.uk/laminitis.html

Hope she gets better soon,

x

Laminitis Trust is at http://www.laminitis.org/

[texel]

Whoa - before you start pumping your equine with all and sundry and wasting money on anti laminitis products you should READ about laminitis , the possible causes etc. The link below is to the laminitis clinic run by Dr Robert Eustace.

http://www.laminitisclinic.org/index.htm

Once you undestand the facts it is easy to manage and not as scary as you first think it is. The danger is you could end up making your equine worse so understand the condition first of all.

all the best

[notpoodle]

not THAt easy to manage actually :o sometimes, even if you tick all the boxes in terms of management and in theory they should not be getting it ... some of them CAN and DO get lami regardless. and managing it isnt 'easy' for most of us who dont own their own farm/land. in fact, at most bogstandard livery yards, lami is very DIFFICULT to manage ....

(sorry, dont mean to sound rude but this is a tetchy subject. and yes i do understand the condition and have done reading/attended lectures on the subject ...)

Julia
x

[FloraHoff]

Tbh 'Texel' i understand what you're saying about make sure you know the facts etc because that is the most important thing..... but i did do my research, and STILL no-body can put it down to a particular cause. which is really annoying for me because if i don't know what triggered it, how am i meant to control it? Laminitis is so complex, and yet none of the typical causes fit her case!

I am fortunate to live on a farm and to not have to keep her at a livery yard, which gives me the advantage of knowing what's constantly around her and what could be going into her system etc, So I can imagine that for laminitics regarding turn-out on a yard it must be really difficult and frustrating a lot of the time.

And it may not be scary but it does cause a fair bit of heartache. I was absolutely gutted when she developed it not only because she cant be ridden (which she adores) but also because she was in pain and unable to be turned out with the others, so feeling very lonely. And you can't help but feel sorry for her, and what's even worse is that she doesn't hate me for it, and is still being her lovely sweet natured self. :( so i do think its difficult, even if not in the most obvious ways- It's still hard for anybody who has to deal with it.

[eml]

It may be worth contacting one of the horse rescue charities for their knowledge and advice on feeding neglect cases.

A horse in neglected/louse ridden condition in april/may may just have been stressed too much by gaining too much condition too quickly. I think the general advised technique is to feed normal fibre diet to the level needed for maintenence at the desired weight and a really poor horse may take over a year to get right.

Not getting at you at all, we all tend to try to put weight on the skinnies but it might help you preventing further attacks.

[FloraHoff]

Yeah you could be absolutely right EML that was one of the things we considered -that it was all too much for her lil system to cope with - But when we suggested it to the vet she kinda just shunned it.... then again she seemed to disagree with a lot of our suggestions and simply said she didn't know what caused it. Its not like we pumped her up to fatty status :P but i do understand what you mean and tbh you never truly know your horse till you've had it for a yr anyway- through all the seasons!

[notpoodle]

if its any consolation, there wasnt a straight answer for mine either :o she was 15 when she first got it, always lived out, never had it before, wasnt fat, nothing else had changed ....

she keeps on getting low grade laminitis now (even got it in winter on very limited turnout in a cr*p field), despite careful management and the vet saying she was a very good weight etc.

sometimes there isnt just one cause or a surefire diagnosis - that's why this is such a pain to deal with :o

Julia

x

[martini55]

Tbh 'Texel' i understand what you're saying about make sure you know the facts etc because that is the most important thing..... but i did do my research, and STILL no-body can put it down to a particular cause. which is really annoying for me because if i don't know what triggered it, how am i meant to control it? Laminitis is so complex, and yet none of the typical causes fit her case!


No. Many things are known to cause laminitis, it's the pathology of the disease no one has been able to figure out for sure. I still stand by what I originally thought- perhaps feeding up too much too soon with conditioning feeds and then giving plenty of grass/mollasses lick. Also have you had your hay analysed to see what it is like? I'm not getting at you at all btw, I know what it is like. My horse lost all her weight/muscle and looked awful around last September time (it was because of Cushings). It has taken right up until now to get her to a decent weight. She was fed fibre, fibre and more fibre. Absolutely no conditioning feeds, nothing mollassed as that would have caused her to get laminitis. She can't even manage hay unsoaked, which made life more difficult! Everyone was probably looking at her thinking I was starving her but I knew that the weight had to come on slowly over months rather than weeks or else it would cause her problems.

[martini55]

if its any consolation, there wasnt a straight answer for mine either :o she was 15 when she first got it, always lived out, never had it before, wasnt fat, nothing else had changed ....

she keeps on getting low grade laminitis now (even got it in winter on very limited turnout in a cr*p field), despite careful management and the vet saying she was a very good weight etc.

sometimes there isnt just one cause or a surefire diagnosis - that's why this is such a pain to deal with :o

Julia

x

If you can save up £100 I would most definitely get Angel blood tested. I agree with you that she is certainly not a straight-forward case (she really shouldn't keep having relapses with your careful management), so there could be something else going on. I appreciate that it's a lot of money to spend but it's very simple- you wouldn't need to have any fancy tests just a simple draw of blood- and could save you a lot of heartache as if there is something going on then no matter what you do she could end up getting it. I do wonder (being the geek that I am) whether there could be something going on with her that ties in all her problems together- her breathing problems/sweetitch/lami. But I guess you'll probably never know the answer to that one! Horses.... why do ours have to be so bloody complicated!!

[Flash Harry]

Just another thought, as i said before with Harry is was a mystery, he`s a 16.2hh ISH, he was a little chubby, never ever shown any signs of LGL. I spent an awful lot of money on him, (thankfuly the insurance have just paid out :) I did some research on the internet for EMS, which is linked to laminitus, all to do with insulin resistance, so i asked my vets to do a glucose tolerance test on Harry, which they did, the results were fine, it was expensive, but i felt at least i could rule it out, hope this helps:)

[FloraHoff]

See this was one of the strangest things about the vet that came to see her.... she was being super cautious putting frog supports on n the like but she kept ruling out all of the likely causes... she even told us about insulin resistance but didn't wanna test for it as she thought it incredibly unlikely. We suggested the horselyx/ventilate and she didn't think it was either of those, she ruled out grass as the paddock was pretty bare. Didn't think it was toxins etc.... The only thing we could think of was building her up to fast for her system, and her system just catching up..... but again the vet was kinda... "well... maybeee.... hmmm" *sigh* so whole load of good there.

She's well on her way to recovery now though, and has come sound and her feet are cool again, just waiting for the pulses to disappear :P just have to take things even slower with her now.

But again.... a friend had her for two months before she was given to us so she's had about 5 months of being built up. It's not like she was super rushed.... but hey. She's on the mend now and i couldn't be happier!!!

[Debbi G]

Check out www.equinescience.co.uk for NITROIXDE. Horse& Hound did a feature on this 3wks ago about the Nitric Oxide making this so effective.