Ragwort posioning!

[Shian89]

How do horses actually get poisoned by ragwort?

I had thought until, i was looking up ragwort on the internet, that they could get poisoned by eating it or breathing in the spores? But according to this website http://www.ragwortfacts.com/index.html they can only get poisoned by eating it! according to this website, ragwort does not have spores, only seeds that are not poisonous to us or horses??
it also says that it is ok for us to handle the ragwort as it is only a myth that it can be absorbed through the skin?

What is everyone's understanding of how horses and people can be poisoned??? :confused:

[Iron Maiden]

As I understand it, ragwort contains chemicals that change into something very nasty that kills liver cells when the liver tries to detoxify them. The chemicals need to be in the bloodstream so the ragwort needs to be eaten rather than inhaled. The scary bit is that the damage to the liver can't be reversed and builds up every time the horse consumes some ragwort.

[Shian89]

As I understand it, ragwort contains chemicals that change into something very nasty that kills liver cells when the liver tries to detoxify them. The chemicals need to be in the bloodstream so the ragwort needs to be eaten rather than inhaled. The scary bit is that the damage to the liver can't be reversed and builds up every time the horse consumes some ragwort.

Yeah thats what i had thought, but i'm sure it was an ilph stand at a horse show i was at, they told me it could be inhaled....so i don't know what to believe! haha, you would have thought they would have known what they were talking about wouldn't you?? :confused:

[pagan]

if you get a horse with ragwort poisoning use milk thistle it does work.

[Shian89]

yeah i've heard that milk thistle is a good detoxifier......have you had a horse with ragwort poisioning pagan?

[gypsy cob]

hi shian the best bet is to ask your vets advice or better still visit www.defra.gov.uk this site will tell you more about it all.

[halkynuk]

To the best of my understanding:-

*horses are susceptable to alkaloid poisoning from eating the equine & other herbivor yellow peril, Ragwort!

* the plant looses it's bitterness & is more palatable when it's dead &/or dying such as when damaged under foot in the pasture &/or cut & dried whilst hay &/or haylage making.

I can assure you, the Ragwort plant is very prolific.

Each plant can produce up to 150,000 seeds which have a 70% germination rate and can lie dormant in the soil for up to 20 years.

This year, again, I've pulled in the region of 50 Ragwort plants from my little garden - in the 18 yrs I've been here, there's never been a Ragwort on the place but a neighbour had an infestation of it some years ago so can only presume all the now occuring plants are the result of seed dispersal especially when one considers the facts above!

Rather than attempt to quote from the many internet sources of Ragwort information here, for further information please refer to the following links &/or do further internet searches for Ragwort,

The Donkey Sanctuary leaflet about Ragwort posioning - http://www.thedonkeysanctuary.org.uk/assets/290.pdf

Ragwort - a killer in disguise - http://www.hackonline.org.uk/ragwort.htm

Ragwort -The Toxic Weed - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-473409/Ragwort-The-toxic-weed-spreading-countryside.html

Ragwort - The Problem, The Law and Control Tecniques - http://bhs.org.uk/DocFrame/DocView.asp?id=1089&sec=-1

[Iron Maiden]

if you get a horse with ragwort poisoning use milk thistle it does work.


I'm interested - how has this been proved?

[pagan]

yeah i've heard that milk thistle is a good detoxifier......have you had a horse with ragwort poisioning pagan?

Yes a few years back she was very sick and the vet said she wouldnt survive .Any way it was when i was in the uk I researched herbal remedies and gave her milkthistle and by god she got better and is still alive ten years on and breeding foals in the uk .She will be about twenty now .Yawning is a sign of liver damage.I had vets out from the top equine hospital as i knew something was wrong .She would stand looking depressed was lethargic had diarroehea after exercise.She kept getting reocuuring bouts of colic and was standing in stable with head sometimes presed against the wall another sign of liver damage.I asked the vets at the top equine hospital what was wrong they said nothing she was fine.Si my old vet who had retired came out he saw her yawn took blood tests and by god she had severe liver damage due to ragwort poisoning .He sid the yawning was the clue.So Be god i got her right after a lot of hard work .

[pagan]

The thing is the old ways are the best people have lost touch with nature .Willow is a great pain killer .When my mares are actually in labour you see them eat willow for pain/Milk thistle actually is used on humans with liver damage and has been proven as a help and cure.The liver is a mighty organ an the only organ that can repair itself when damaged.Yes i know people and animals die of liver damage but it can repair itself to a certain degree and with help/Milk thistle is marvelous as are a lot of herbal cures.Raspberry leaf can help with labour pains the list goes on .Ragwort is extremly dangerous and can if you pull it without gloves damage you .

[donkey heaven]

Ragwort has to be ingested (eaten) to get into the bloodstream and hence to the liver to cause mayhem. But it is sensible to wear gloves when pulling it up in the fields as you may have a small cut on your finger/hand and it is best to be careful. If you don't wear gloves (and I rarely do, I must admit!!!) then be sure to wash your hands afterwards before handling things.

[laceyfreckle]

The thing is the old ways are the best people have lost touch with nature .Willow is a great pain killer .When my mares are actually in labour you see them eat willow for pain/Milk thistle actually is used on humans with liver damage and has been proven as a help and cure.The liver is a mighty organ an the only organ that can repair itself when damaged.Yes i know people and animals die of liver damage but it can repair itself to a certain degree and with help/Milk thistle is marvelous as are a lot of herbal cures.Raspberry leaf can help with labour pains the list goes on .Ragwort is extremly dangerous and can if you pull it without gloves damage you .

completely agree with all the above. (speaking as someone with liver damage) oh and the raspberry leaf (or blackberry leaf) for labour pain is correct too, and for uterine probs.

[Shian89]

so does no one think that the spores can be breathed in and poison the horse? :confused:

[marchog]

so does no one think that the spores can be breathed in and poison the horse? :confused:

Let me explain it from a science point of view.
It does not have spores. Flowering plants do not have spores they have seeds. Who ever told you this hasn't a clue about the science to be frank.
Things like fungi and ferns have spores. Flowers don't have spores.

There are a few things to remember about breathing in seeds. Have you ever had some food go down the wrong way and started choking? You simply cannot breathe in anything of any size like that . A horse is the same. This is just someone who doesn't understand getting in a panic.

Secondly the amount of toxin in a seed is tiny and it isn't quite true that every little bit poisons. Small doses won't be enough. The toxins end up randomly attached to various molecules in the cells and only those that end up on the DNA molecules will have an effect. Even then DNA has repair mechanisms.

About people getting poisoned by handling the plant. This is another story from someone who doesn't understand the science. The pyrrolizidine alkaloids in ragwort are not actually toxic while they are in the plant. They have to become activated in the digestive system. So if you handle the plants or they sap gets into the blood through a cut there is no problem. Because they haven't been activated they cannot harm the liver.

A good site to look at is this one
http://www.ragwort.jakobskruiskruid.com/
It is the English language version of a Dutch site put together by a horse owner.

[marchog]

To the best of my understanding:-

*horses are susceptable to alkaloid poisoning from eating the equine & other herbivor yellow peril, Ragwort!

* the plant looses it's bitterness & is more palatable when it's dead &/or dying such as when damaged under foot in the pasture &/or cut & dried whilst hay &/or haylage making.

I can assure you, the Ragwort plant is very prolific.

Each plant can produce up to 150,000 seeds which have a 70% germination rate and can lie dormant in the soil for up to 20 years.


This is commonly quoted information but it makes little sense. Again I think it shows that there is little science informing the debate. Research has shown that most of the seeds actually fall near the base of the plants and that the rest move only a matter of metres. The 70% figure for germination is a laboratory figure and is irrelevant. In fact each plant only produces on average a single offspring.



This year, again, I've pulled in the region of 50 Ragwort plants from my little garden - in the 18 yrs I've been here, there's never been a Ragwort on the place but a neighbour had an infestation of it some years ago so can only presume all the now occuring plants are the result of seed dispersal especially when one considers the facts above!

Rather than attempt to quote from the many internet sources of Ragwort information here, for further information please refer to the following links &/or do further internet searches for Ragwort,

The Donkey Sanctuary leaflet about Ragwort posioning - http://www.thedonkeysanctuary.org.uk/assets/290.pdf

Ragwort - a killer in disguise - http://www.hackonline.org.uk/ragwort.htm

Ragwort -The Toxic Weed - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-473409/Ragwort-The-toxic-weed-spreading-countryside.html
The Daily mail article is full of inaccuracies. For example we know for absolute certain that ragwort is not increasing. It has been studied.



Ragwort - The Problem, The Law and Control Tecniques - http://bhs.org.uk/DocFrame/DocView.asp?id=1089&sec=-1
[/QUOTE]

Amazingly the BHS is wrong about the LAW!

[Iron Maiden]

For example we know for absolute certain that ragwort is not increasing. It has been studied.


Sorry but I don't think you can make a sweeping generalisation like that. Lots of things are studied by eminent scientists but they still manage to disagree - if studying things lead to absolute certainties we would live in a world of facts, rather than theories. I remember reading an article in the British Medical Journal that proved, using a widely accepted and scientifically validated methodology, that wearing a parachute did not improve your chances of survival if you fell out of an aeroplane in mid-air. This is plainly silly - but the point was that it showed how misleading studies can be, however well designed.

My perception, and that of just about every other horse owner I know, is that ragwort is on the increase. I am prepared to stand corrected - so where is the evidence of this "absolute certainty"?

[pagan]

Ragwort is spreading its everywhere

[donkey heaven]

I too have to question "science" and "facts". As far as the distance the seeds can travel goes, when the field directly across the main road from us was a mass of ragwort, the following seasons, we were up to our ears in it too. They were made to get rid of their ragwort, we did so anyway as a matter of course, and the problem has never been so bad again. There is still some ragwort in our fields, but you cannot always get all of it out everytime and we will continue to go over the fields on a regular basis.
I do not believe it can be "breathed in" - it has to get into the bloodstream - but I stand by what I said - it is only sensible to wash hands after handling it - scientifically correct or not.
I tend to pull it out by the roots rather than using a fork and find that if you wait until you have a tall flowering plant (before it starts chucking the seeds about!!), it seems to lose its grip of the ground more easily than when it is in the floret and growing stage. Try pulling it out then and you come away with a handful of leaves - no good!!

[eml]

We have an earth mound to one side of our drive. Last year SFS and I pulled the worst 25% of it (total about 1/2mile). That part hasn't regrown, but the rest is fairly clear as well :confused:

[Iron Maiden]

I do not believe it can be "breathed in" - it has to get into the bloodstream - but I stand by what I said - it is only sensible to wash hands after handling it - scientifically correct or not.


The alveoli in the lungs are in equilibrium with the bloodstream, and certain chemicals can pass across from the lungs to the bloodstream and back the other way. This is the basis of the breathalyser test - the amount of alcohol in the very last bit of breath you exhale (the alveolar air) is a valid surrogate measure for what's in the bloodstream. Something like a seed couldn't get into the bloodstream this way, but an aerosol certainly could if the particles were small enough.

As for absorption through the skin of a toxin that gets on your hands, this is very possible, although the degree to which things are skin absorbed varies depending on lots of factors. I used to work in a toxicology lab & did a study on myself to see whether a common pesticide could go through my skin in significant quantities, and yes indeed it could - it was a nerve toxin btw, probably explains an awful lot :eek: (It's OK the local ethics committee approved the study). This is the principle behind nicotine patches among other things. So you are not being silly at all - keep wearing the gloves :)

[rtk]

I dont know enough about the science to comment on it.

However I have spent the last 45 years pulling ragwort without gloves and I haven't been poisoned yet, well not enough to notice anyway.

As for the seeds or whatever, that amount of ragwort is insignificant. Ragwort is not like Yew where a tiny piece can kill. It takes a lot eaten over time to cause liver failure.

Horses are not going to die if they eat one plant, although I would try to avoid it. I think the figure quoted is hay with 10% ragwort is fatal.

10% of a horses total intake is a hell of a lot of ragwort.

I'm also afraid to say that one of the causes of so much ragwort is horse owners. Ragwort likes disturbed ground, such as the mud baths which some horses live in. It can grow anywhere but its not fond of well managed old pasture. The change from well managed agricultural land to badly managed pony paddocks has no doubt helped it spread in horsey areas. I have no idea whether the total amount in the country has risen or not.

[Iron Maiden]

[QUOTE=rtk;1811947]
However I have spent the last 45 years pulling ragwort without gloves and I haven't been poisoned yet, well not enough to notice anyway.

As for the seeds or whatever, that amount of ragwort is insignificant. Ragwort is not like Yew where a tiny piece can kill. It takes a lot eaten over time to cause liver failure.

Horses are not going to die if they eat one plant, although I would try to avoid it. I think the figure quoted is hay with 10% ragwort is fatal.

10% of a horses total intake is a hell of a lot of ragwort.

[QUOTE]

Trouble is that when you notice you have a problem it's probably too late. The liver is a remarkable organ and can keep going when it's lost a lot of function, but when it's buggered, be it because of alcohol, ragwort, disease, whatever, it's buggered & you'll be on the transplant register, or if it's your horse, it will die. I'm having a good go at mine with my cider consumption, which is far more fun than smearing my hands in ragwort juice.

Ragwort is a cumulative poison, so quoting 10% of a horse's diet is meaningless. It depends on how often it is eaten and the 10% of what you are talking about. I've read estimates that say from 1kg of ragwort upwards over the course of the horse's WHOLE LIFE is enough to kill it. There is bound to be uncertainty because the only way to be sure is to deliberately poison & kill a large number of horses, which I don't think would go down very well. Frankly I don't much care about the numbers - I'm not going to stand there weighing how much ragwort my horse eats and she's not going to tell me either. All I know is that every bit of ragwort she eats may kill off a tiny bit of her liver that won't come back. For that reason I don't want any of it near her.

I shan't be taking any chances with myself or my horse thanks, a liver is for life not just for Christmas, so on with the gloves & out with the ragwort :)

[rtk]

I agree with you. Wouldn't dream of letting my horses eat one plant but to be fair to me, for 44 of the 45 years no-one told me you shouldn't pull plants.

My point was a few seeds were not likely to cause a problem with ragwort, although a similar amount would with things like Yew

[marchog]

[QUOTE=rtk;1811947]
However I have spent the last 45 years pulling ragwort without gloves and I haven't been poisoned yet, well not enough to notice anyway.

As for the seeds or whatever, that amount of ragwort is insignificant. Ragwort is not like Yew where a tiny piece can kill. It takes a lot eaten over time to cause liver failure.

Horses are not going to die if they eat one plant, although I would try to avoid it. I think the figure quoted is hay with 10% ragwort is fatal.

10% of a horses total intake is a hell of a lot of ragwort.


Trouble is that when you notice you have a problem it's probably too late. The liver is a remarkable organ and can keep going when it's lost a lot of function, but when it's buggered, be it because of alcohol, ragwort, disease, whatever, it's buggered & you'll be on the transplant register, or if it's your horse, it will die. I'm having a good go at mine with my cider consumption, which is far more fun than smearing my hands in ragwort juice.

It is well established that ragwort juice is NOT harmful unless eaten. the alkaloids are not well absorbed through the skin ( there is proper research showing it.) and we know from the biochemical structure of the molecules and they way they act that they cannot damage the liver in the form that they exist in the plant. They have to pass through the digestive system.


Ragwort is a cumulative poison, so quoting 10% of a horse's diet is meaningless. It depends on how often it is eaten and the 10% of what you are talking about. I've read estimates that say from 1kg of ragwort upwards over the course of the horse's WHOLE LIFE is enough to kill it. There is bound to be uncertainty because the only way to be sure is to deliberately poison & kill a large number of horses, which I don't think would go down very well. Frankly I don't much care about the numbers - I'm not going to stand there weighing how much ragwort my horse eats and she's not going to tell me either. All I know is that every bit of ragwort she eats may kill off a tiny bit of her liver that won't come back. For that reason I don't want any of it near her.

This is hysteria not rational thinking. They experiment you talk about has actually been done several times with a range of animals including horses. It is cruel but someone has done it. The 1Kg figure appears just to have been made up. Like, unfortunately, a lot of the stuff you read on the web such as non-existent spores causing problems. Did you know that the alkaloids in Ragwort are present in 3% of the world's flora?
Why aren't you worried about them?


I shan't be taking any chances with myself or my horse thanks, a liver is for life not just for Christmas, so on with the gloves & out with the ragwort :)

Let me describe another substance you might want to avoid.
DHMO is is present in Ragwort and a number of other things.
As little as a thimbleful can kill a grown man. It has killed thousands It is used in nuclear power stations. In the manufacture of pesticides and in genetic engineering. It even contributes to the greenhouse effect. There have been lots of calls for bans even from politicians. That is until someone actually tells them what DHMO actually is. It is DiHydyrogen Monoxide or H20 . That is to say that it is just plain ordinary WATER!

This kind of thinking is what has caused people to unnecessarily panic about ragwort. Yes it is poisonous. No there is not a lot of risk except when it is in hay.

One of those cruel experiments I describe above was done in France. They thought that French ragwort might be non-poisonous although it looked the same. Why? Because THERE WAS NOT ONE SINGLE CASE THAT THEY COULD FIND OF POISONING IN FRANCE in the scientific literature.

Think rationally about it Iron Maiden. As a "pastafarian" who talks about the flying spaghetti monster you should be able to work out that you look at rational evidence not hearsay and pseudoscience. The perceptions of all horse owners have been distorted in the UK and many people believe false things as a result. Elsewhere belief is different and more rational On June 5th 2005 the Irish Minister for Agriculture and Food stated ," "There are no official figures available in Ireland for deaths of horses due to ragwort poisoning. Unofficial estimates indicate that the level is very low and does not warrant any special attention or investigation." There are some official government figures in the UK and they actually agree with the Irish Minister's assessment.

This may come as a shock to some people.

[Iron Maiden]

You still haven't referenced any peer reviewed literature whatsoever. Ministers are not noted for their scientific rigour or reliability - reference Edwina Currie, dodgy dossiers etc

You do accept that ragwort is a risk. Top of the risk control heirachy is always elimination of the hazard so I'll carry on doing what I'm doing ta. I'm not prepared to play Russian Roulette with mine & my horse's liver on your say-so. I know enough about toxoicology to know that the biological system at play is far more complex than just 'if it goes through the gut, something different is 100% certain to happen compared to what happens when things are skin absorbed'. Not true, there are metabolic enzymes at play in skin absorption - they are just poorly understood and not extensively documented, however there is evidence out there of biological activation occurring via the skin. Won't take me long to find the references if you need them but this has been documented by researchers into industrial hygiene, where skin contamination is a serious issue. Furthermore, what about the potential for substances on contaminated skin getting ingested? This is how lead poisoning has been happening to people working in paint factories etc for years - not through the skin, but on the skin then straight into the mouth via sticky fingers or ingested via contamination transferred to food. This is basic sensible hygiene and if you argue against this, you really are arguing that black is white.

I have no idea what you are on about H20 and I refer back to the parachutes statistically proven not to help if you fall out of a plane (published in the BMJ, I can get the reference if you like).

So what is your agenda, marchog? Sounds like you probably work for my local highways department.

[marchog]

You still haven't referenced any peer reviewed literature whatsoever. Ministers are not noted for their scientific rigour or reliability - reference Edwina Currie, dodgy dossiers etc

No I wouldn't either, but what the Irish Minister says is supported by the literature including a British study. You have actually been provided with peer reviewed references. I don't think you have looked at them. These two websites are stuffed full of them.

http://www.ragwortfacts.com/
http://www.ragwort.jakobskruiskruid.com/




You do accept that ragwort is a risk. Top of the risk control heirachy is always elimination of the hazard so I'll carry on doing what I'm doing ta.


What hazard? You haven't established there is one to any serious degree.
The plant is poisonous but repeatedly the peer reviewed literature on the subject says they same thing. Poisoning is not common.
.



I'm not prepared to play Russian Roulette with mine & my horse's liver on your say-so. I know enough about toxoicology to know that the biological system at play is far more complex than just 'if it goes through the gut, something different is 100% certain to happen compared to what happens when things are skin absorbed'. Not true, there are metabolic enzymes at play in skin absorption - they are just poorly understood and not extensively documented, however there is evidence out there of biological activation occurring via the skin.


This is irrelevant. The evidence very strongly suggests that it is bacteria in the digestive system that perform the chemical changes.

But anyway aren't you applying a double standard? You ask me for peer reviewed stuff on poisoning through skin absorption and don't provide it your self. Don't bother looking for any because I have done it. The source of the story is conjecture by someone who has never published any peer reviewed papers on pyrrolizidine alkaloid chemistry that I can find. The Dutch site has a massive list of scientific helpers who have checked and has this statement about the claim. "The results of this 'experiment' have not been published and, according to us, are not obtained through a good scientific trial."
( It is repeated on the other site too.)





Won't take me long to find the references if you need them but this has been documented by researchers into industrial hygiene, where skin contamination is a serious issue. Furthermore, what about the potential for substances on contaminated skin getting ingested? This is how lead poisoning has been happening to people working in paint factories etc for years - not through the skin, but on the skin then straight into the mouth via sticky fingers or ingested via contamination transferred to food. This is basic sensible hygiene and if you argue against this, you really are arguing that black is white.

Of course not. But do you know how much ragwort is needed to poison someone? Traces on the fingers accidentally ingested are no more a problem that consuming burnt toast which contains the substances that do the real damage in the liver. ( The products at the end of the metabolic chain of conversion.) Wear gloves if you want to but telling people that something is poisonous to the touch when the evidence says otherwise sounds like scaremongering to me.


I have no idea what you are on about H20 and I refer back to the parachutes statistically proven not to help if you fall out of a plane (published in the BMJ, I can get the reference if you like).


The H20 thing is like the flying spaghetti monster. It is an analogy that both demonstrates a point. that you can make some people afraid of anything with bad science, and an example that tries to make people think rationally.
The Flying Spaghetti Monster in case others are wondering was part of a campaign to stop puritanical political activists using a religious excuse to stop the proper teaching of science in US schools.


So what is your agenda, marchog? Sounds like you probably work for my local highways department.

No, I don't work for any council. My local council is labouring under the misconception that ragwort is a foreign invader!. It is NATIVE.

I am basically a boffin type person who has studied this subject extensively and is concerned about the issue. My motivations include

1. It is bad for people not to think rationally about things.

2. People are being duped and this is wrong.

3. Damage may by being done to animal health because real problems are being ignored because people are concentrating on the wrong thing.

To convince me that I am wrong this is what you need to do, amongst other things:-

1. Show that there really are a lot of animals suffering. hundreds or thousands rather than the handful that proper studies show is the case.

2. Provide peer reviewed literature that there is a real, substantive risk to people.

3. Prove to me that the extensive web studies I have done documenting incorrect information on official websites and misconceptions exaggerating the risk on equine forums such as this are wrong.

4. Show that the research on ragwort seed mobility is wrong and that road verges are a significant source of a problem and in addition that all the current research on plant ecology is wrong in that it that SITE SPECIFIC factors outweigh anything external in determining whether a plant will grow.

Incidentally the Dutch site I refer to above is written by a horse owner who initially was a member of a ragwort extermination group. She has a rational mind and therefore asked some scientists for help. She then discovered that all the stuff she had been told was wrong. It originates from the UK hysteria.

[Liz1949]

Well said marchog!

I don't LIKE ragwort and prefer not to have it in the pasture - but my dislike stems from the fact that it is to me an indicator of bad land management (mine or a neighbour or a previous manager) rather than that it is a 'deathly poison' - which it is not.

To me, a good pasture has all sorts of plants in it - some of which may well be toxic or harmful in large doses, just the same as many of our own favourite foods!

This entire discussion is very reminiscent of the potato peeling thread where some posters were getting almost hysterical about the 'danger' posed by the addition of a few spuds or their peelings to the horse's feed.

[Iron Maiden]

Quote from the 'ragwort facts' website you linked to:

"It is the damage that is caused to liver cells that can, if sufficient ragwort is consumed at each dose, be cumulative to the point of death occuring."

Definition of 'hazard' - anything that can cause harm. That sounds like a hazard to me. I will therefore apply my risk control hierarchy and carry on digging it up.

As for hysteria. Public perception of risk is based on the perceived nature of the hazard, and the benefit associated with it. The bottom line is that there is no benefit that the public can see to having ragwort growing all over the place, so there is a - perhaps emotional - reaction against it. So why not encourage people to clear ragwort? You also accept that ragwort in hay is a problem. What better way to ensure that it gets into hay than to discourage people from removing it? OK fair enough, you believe this is ragwort scare stuff is hysteria - but is being compacent any better? Because that is what you appear to be encouraging.

OK the peer reviewed stuff. My first hit on google scholar related to horse deaths due to consumption of ragwort in a pasture, not dried in hay, and funnily enough isn't referenced on your 'facts' website.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1476261

Makes me a tad sceptical about the freedom from bias of the website. There is a huge body of scientific data out there and we can all be selective if we want to be.

Tell me -have you ever dug ragwort from a field adjoining a ragwort infested dual carriageway year on year, and watched it's gradual march from the field margin onward? Because if you had, you would understand my deep scepticism about the 'pro-ragwort' it's not a problem and it isn't spreading propaganda.

[amandal]

I've known 2 people lose horses to ragwort poisoning, both from grazing and eating it dried in hay. I will continue to wear gloves to pull it and will make sure that any field either of my horses are in is clear of the stuff. I also check my hay even though I've ensured my hay supplier doesn't cut fields with ragwort in them.

This isn't hysteria, this is me making sure that my horses are as safe as they can be. I also keep them away from barbed wire in the field, it's called managing the environment to reduce risk.

[marchog]

Quote from the 'ragwort facts' website you linked to:

"It is the damage that is caused to liver cells that can, if sufficient ragwort is consumed at each dose, be cumulative to the point of death occuring."

Definition of 'hazard' - anything that can cause harm. That sounds like a hazard to me. I will therefore apply my risk control hierarchy and carry on digging it up.

As for hysteria. Public perception of risk is based on the perceived nature of the hazard, and the benefit associated with it. The bottom line is that there is no benefit that the public can see to having ragwort growing all over the place, so there is a - perhaps emotional - reaction against it. So why not encourage people to clear ragwort?


You really come across as knowing very very little about this plant or about ecology.
The plant is valued by many people because of its important ecological role. In fact there is a conservation charity running a
campaign to educate people about it

http://www.buglife.org.uk/conservation/currentprojects/ragwort/






You also accept that ragwort in hay is a problem. What better way to ensure that it gets into hay than to discourage people from removing it? OK fair enough, you believe this is ragwort scare stuff is hysteria - but is being compacent any better? Because that is what you appear to be encouraging.



No, I am encouraging people to think rationally and look at the data first.


OK the peer reviewed stuff. My first hit on google scholar related to horse deaths due to consumption of ragwort in a pasture, not dried in hay, and funnily enough isn't referenced on your 'facts' website.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1476261

Makes me a tad sceptical about the freedom from bias of the website. There is a huge body of scientific data out there and we can all be selective if we want to be.


You are not addressing the question. I am begining to wonder if you are being honest to be frank. You are asked for peer reviewed material to prove it is a severe problem and you offer a paper showing ONE SINGLE instance. These occur no body disputes it is poisonous. But the reason these papers get published is that someone thinks it is interesting BECAUSE IT IS UNUSUAL AND THEREFORE WORTHY of publication.
Everyone knows the plant is poisonous. The evidence says it is not a great risk.


Tell me -have you ever dug ragwort from a field adjoining a ragwort infested dual carriageway year on year, and watched it's gradual march from the field margin onward? Because if you had, you would understand my deep scepticism about the 'pro-ragwort' it's not a problem and it isn't spreading propaganda.

As someone else has already pointed out Ragwort grows on sites because they are managed in a way that lets it grow.
Seed dispersal is not an important factor. I grow tired of debating this issue with you when you lack the basic knowledge of ecology to properly understand the issue.
This is really elementary ecology that you don't understand here. You seem to have decided that I am wrong as a matter of faith not rational thought and having been beaten back on a number of issues you now keep raising straw man arguments.

[Iron Maiden]

OK so I should listen to politicians who can be weakminded enough to think that water should be banned.

The biodiversity encouraged by ragwort is very important, more so than my perception of my horse's welfare.

My own personal experience is irrelevant because I'm not an ecologist, so the spread of the ragwort across the field is a figment of my imagination. I only feel like King Canute because I have a complex.

I do not have the time or resource to do an exhaustive literature search to counter your points, but the single paper I do cite - which is reporting an instance where ragwort poisoned a couple of horses - is really evidence that it is actually not a problem.

What do you think of Prof Derek Knottenbelt and his mates at Liverpool. He seems to think that over 1000 horses a year are killed by ragwort and has been very public about it because he reckons that we are way too apothetic. Is he a straw man? Sounds like he might end up in one.

I'll just shut up now & keep digging my great big holes.

[acw295]

I'll carry on removing ragwort when I find it - with gloves on too - thanks all the same!

[rtk]

I'm also afraid to say that one of the causes of so much ragwort is horse owners. Ragwort likes disturbed ground, such as the mud baths which some horses live in. It can grow anywhere but its not fond of well managed old pasture. The change from well managed agricultural land to badly managed pony paddocks has no doubt helped it spread in horsey areas. I have no idea whether the total amount in the country has risen or not.

I dont see many replies to this, I believe this is one of the biggest issues which need to be tackled.

Its no good horse owners putting gloves on to pull ragwort, the dammed stuff shouldn't be there in the first place. Yes it can spread from adjoining land but it finds it 100 times easier to do so if pastures are poorly managed, overgrazed and full of bald muddy patches. I actually think this is an issue for horse welfare as well as the ragwort but have been shot down for making this point in the past.

[donkey heaven]

This debate is getting us nowhere. Marchog is obviously very well read and has very definite views on the subject. These are put very eloquently and are difficult to argue with if you do not have the same literature to hand. I suspect most of the rest of us are a bit more emotive about ragwort but then anything we think has the potential to harm our equines has no place near them - this can refer to barbed wire, yew trees, etc., etc. We all know they won't eat ragwort in its growing stage, it is only palatable in its dried form and this is when it is likely to be found in hay.
Some folks "top" their fields if the grass gets a bit long - there can be ragwort growing still in at the floret stage - and when that has dried who is to say if an equine might not eat it then.
I really don't care how much ragwort it takes to start damaging the liver - I also don't really care if it will do me harm or not through my skin if I have a cut - the ragwort which is on our land (and wasn't there before that field across the road from us suddenly blossomed) is being yanked out any way we can and I will try to remember to stick a pair of gloves in my pocket as well!
It will be too damn late when yet another scientific report comes out that completely reverses everything that has been said to date!!!

[Iron Maiden]

Sorry but I will say another thing!

I do agree with you rtk but what I believe we have here is a conflict with a couple of things - management of laminitics/fat horses, where 'starvation paddocks' are kept deliberately poached to a degree, and the general increased popularity of horses which means more tend to be squeezed onto a given area of land. Unfortunately few of us horse owners are in a position to buy our own land and have little or no say over how it is managed. I don't know of a single livery yard around here where the pastures don't get poached to some degree at some time of year.

I don't have the answers to this, although I do know that pastures locally which have been identified as of scientific interest are monitored (by Natural England I think) who won't allow herbicides & fertilisers to be used and will step in and take action if the fields start getting poached. Maybe this needs to be a bit more widespread? But for the YO who needs to take on a couple more liveries in to make ends meet & stay in business, or the horse owner with an animal that just has to sniff grass to become laminitic, this would probably go down like a lead balloon.