Stuck in the mud

[Yann]

When I hack out on Rio I don't normally carry a whip. When she has napped through insecurity or anxiety at being in new places I've tried to work through it positively, being patient, reassuring her and gently asking her forward whilst keeping her pointed in the right direction. This has mostly worked very well, as we have gone further from home her confidence has increased. Where she's been really bothered, such as at a pig farm, I've got off and led her.
Having said that she can still be a pain to get off the farm, walking as if she has a block of concrete tied to each leg until we get a certain distance away:)

However I had an incident crossing a stream with muddy banks where she's been a thousand times without incident. At first she wouldn't go in so I upped the pressure with my voice and leg and got us into the water. There we stuck, nothing I did could get her up the other bank. In the end I broke off a handy twig, gave her a smart tap on the rump and we were on our way again without a care in the world. The stream was recrossed a few minutes later further up without the slightest problem.

This napping was definitely not down to fear or insecurity, more a difference of opinion or even a challenge. In similar circumstances is force always the appropriate response? Where does the line fall between maintaning a balance in the relationship and asserting leadership?

[Kerry's Partner]

Hi Yan,

I think only you will know really. It doesn't seem to be the water - you said that yourself. The problem seems to be (from what you say you're horse is saying) leaving in the first place. So is your horse bored with hacking out or, I suppose, there are a million associated questions.

This has probably been no help at all, except to reflect back what you've already said. At the very least I hope it is of some help anyway.

Sandra

[floppy]

They always say patience is the best thing between owner and horse. And with some things i believe it....I have ALOT of patience with my horse but her being silly about leaving the yard alone really got beyond a joke where my patience ran out. As i strongly believe that she was not scared just very stubborn.(my horse is unspooky you can pop balloons infront of her and she pops them herself. The only thign she doesnt like is waterfalls.)

So one day (2 weeks ago actually) i got so frustrated i let my instructor on her and my instructor shook my horse right up because she mounted her and asked her nicely to walk on and of course it didnt work so she got more and more harasher with her words and shouted very loudly and agressively at her and after 5mins tolted out of the yard very quickly with no stopping. (when my horse goes on strike she backs up...and she backed up right into a wall with my instructor and that woke her up and sent her forwards)

Since that day my horse has only given me her stubborness once and other than that she walks quite happily out of the yard on a loose rein. She doesnt even stop out on hacks anymore. She knows Im not a push over and cant get away with it anymore.

as for carrying a whip..i always have one on hand...rarely use it..mostly i use it to keep my horse going straight.

[virtuallyhorses]

Change the language and you have your answer - if you simply see the branch you used as the next level of pressure, then I suspect you wouldn't even need to ask the question. :)

BTW There is a false impression that 'natural horsemen' never use a stick\whip or hit a horse - that's not true. They never GET MAD and hit a horse - there's the difference.

Parelli uses the term 'spanking' and I have seen John Lyons teaching a particularly bolshy colt not to run over him with a few quick raps on the shins with a whip. The big difference here is that they use as much pressure as needed, do not get mad at the horse and then begin again with as little pressure as needed the next time.

Sounds like you did exactly the right thing.

[FRED]

Hi Yann, recently Im having a problem with a horse,on 3 seperate occasions he has stopped at the top of the famous hill before the decent, you may remember it;) You would think he would follow the 3 or 4 horse in front as he ignores my aids.
Im fine on other horse and this horse is fine with other riders:o decending the hill. To be honest I let him stop and view the decent and the more he looks the more we go no where and I do get just a little nervous. I think Im doing the right thing letting him stop , but starting off again is a problem, perhaps hes unsure because its so steep or because of me,its hard to tell why because im still getting to know him.
I don't normaly carry a whip, but a smart tap on the rump from helping hand on the one occasion I could not get us going again did the trick.
Im not sure you could call this force,if it were regular to give horse tap then yes I would be concerned. I guess it comes down to whats best at the moment in time and think you did the right thing.

PS;pass my best regards onto Karl and Zak if you see them,hope all is well for Zak.
:)

[Yann]

I think the thing about using force / pressure in a calculated graduated and calm way hits the nail on the head. Horses don't hesitate to kick and nip to maintain their social order. I can't help feeling despite a lot of what I've read that there is something in the 'show it who's boss' approach, as long as it isn't done at the expense of the horse. It certainly sounds like it cured floppy's nappy mare.
After all, most of the NH groundwork is about asserting dominance in a language the horse can understand, but dominance it is, even if it isn't achieved by direct force. I like the sound of the Mike Peace type partnership idea though, my understanding is that he doesn't use force, I wondered really if I was missing something stood in the stream on Sunday morning.

How do you make that sort of approach work with a horse that isn't worried or frightened but just doesn't fancy going the same way you want to or is just plain opinionated?:)

PS. Rio better not be bored with hacking - we're neither of us up to much else:D

[virtuallyhorses]

I must say that the most surprised look I have ever seen on a horse's face was the colt with John Lyons. He had been patiently working with this colt for quite some time (it was actually a trailer loading demo) and the colt upped the ante by getting VERY pushy and trying to knock him down, obviously thinking 'hey, this guy isn't getting mad or upset by my usual antic, I'll rear at him and try to bowl him over, that'll make him stop asking me to be nice'.

Well, there was no change in John's demeanour at all, he simply picked up a dressage whip and cracked it across the front of the horse's legs. I don't think I have the words to describe the look on the horse's face - there was no fear or anger, it was total surprise and disbelief (not to mention a definite Ow! ow! ow!). It was like a small, spoiled child being told no for the first time and perhaps getting their hand smacked for trying to grab something.

He was so disbelieving he tried it again and got the same result ow! ow! ouch! But that was it, he was totally accepting of the 'punishment' because there was no anger in and the whacks were immediate, in response to the horse's own actions, in proportion to them and once delivered it was like nothing had happenned. JL just kept asking again for what he wanted originally in the same calm manner so there was nothing to be afraid of.

Once the horse stopped trying to physically 'bash' him, JL put down the whip....the horse totally understood what was going on (and accepted his own part in it) and therefore there was neither fear nor animosity, even though physical 'force' was used in this instance.

[cvb]

Yann,

I think the key is something virtually horses said earlier. The other thing about natural horsemanship is to work through the levels of pressure, giving the horse a chance to respond, rather than just going straight to nuclear war !

Parelli talks about 4 levels, but I think most of the teachers have a similar approach just described different.

Level 1 you are just touching the fur
Level 3, touching the skin
then increase
until Level 4 he talks about pushing the bone (!) which of course you are not - but its a big increase in pressure.

You release pressure at the point the horse responds. And the repsonse is the horse making the decision to move - which you can normally see in their body language.

Outside the levels just get translated. So your level 1 is just your normal riding style - asking the horse across the stream.

Level 2 - increased pressire with the aids, and adding voice aid.

Level 3 - could be your twig, with light pressure. Maybe not even touching the horse with it at this stage.

Level 4 - is your final level.

Having done the stream thing myself :D I had a doubt about whether the horse was genuinely worried, so got off and led over - to and fro a few times. She was worried first time but worked it out with me giving her confidence from the floor. (It was snowy so everything was white apart from this little black stream).

However, when I got back on, she then decided it was still scarey, so I had to use a higher level of pressure (2 or 3) to get her over. Without me leading her over, we were heading for a level 4 requirement, which I did not want to do, so I tried another way. In other words, rather than increase the pressure level, I applied pressure in a different way and got a response.

Having established it was not scarey, I got a response at a lower level when I got back on. (but I still got some resistance, despite having worked her over it from the ground).

One of my tactics is to back past stuff. I suspect this counts as a level 2 or 3 of pressure. Its not extreme but it is putting pressure on in a different way. I don't use it very often, only when we really get to an impasse and I don't want to up the aid pressure any further.

[CarolineR]

Hi Yann

The other thing to take into account is that fact that she's a Cob, and all Cob's are stubborn, although lovely and reliable and sometimes they need to be told to wake up and concentrate on the job inhand. This does not necessarily mean force or getting into a dominance issue with her, as I am sure you are aware the horse will always win on pure force as they are physically stronger than you. So don't beat yourself up that you gave her a tap, she needed it and it worked, and she did not resent you for it so you cannot have abused her trust or used too much force.

I would not dwell too much on the hacking issue, but concentrate on her behaviour at home and ensure that she does as you wish there without question and also at the tempo you dictate. I.e will she walk briskly to and from the field if you ask her to, will she trot next to you on a loose line and change gait as you do without any pushing or running on, whilst maintaining a respectful distance from you and not entering your personal space. Will she you this with and without a saddle on?

Charlie will not willingly go through deep mud or puddles, and I have tried every method under the sun to get him to do it and still he wont, he can do huge jumps over them though!!!! So now we don't even bother to argue about it, so I practice leg yields and shoulder in and quarters in when we get to these areas thus turning a negative into a positive with us both feeling OK.

Now being stuck in a steam is not nice, so if she does it again perhaps try a different approach, perhaps she thought the Bank was too slippery for her, although this turned out wrong in the end she was not aware of this at the time. Walk her up and down the stream and try to exit somewhere further down, if nothing is available walk her calmly back to the first place, and say well we've had a good look round and this is the only safe place to cross, so lets get on with it, I bet she'll appreciate the chance of trying elsewhere. We have to learn to listen to our horses as they do things for reasons, and it is up to us to interpret what and why they are doing certain things, so give her the benefit of doubt as she's a lovely girl and I don;t believe she is being naughty deliberately.

I hope you are all well over there and isn't winter a wonderful time to have horses!!!!! I wish I had four legs and as good a grip in the mud as they do, poor Charlie is fed up with me walking in pigeon steps across the field in case I fall holding onto the front of his rug for support, I love living on clay. Bless him he's such an angel and just lets me do what I want without question, even when I slip he just stands there and looks at me to say hurry up I want to go in and have my dinner.

Zak has finally had his tubes removed, what a long job that was. A whole month of flushing 1.5 litres twice a day. Karl adapted one of those garden sprayers to make life easier for us all. He is now very well in himself and wants to run around all the time, so he is obviously feeling fine. There is still a small amount of discharge but the vet says not to worry. The weather doesn't help. Many thanks Fred for asking I shall remind Karl to give an update on the board.

Percy is amazing and we had a lovely compliment from our Farrier about him the other week. Who said he looks much brighter, happier and moves a lot better since retiring to us, its nice when someone independent makes comments. He is one of us now and has settled down well. So much so that is is happy to lie down and sleep in his stable and let you go in and sit next to him stroking him whilst he dozes off. There is something very magical about a horse letting you sit next to them on the ground and fuss them.

Take care to you all on the Board and a very Merry Xmas and a Prosperous (although not likely being a horse owner) New Year.

[FRED]

:) great to hear about Zak and Percy Caroline R

Im not wishing to be contraversial CVB, but doe's level 4 include hitting horse across the legs. I only ask because im struggling that its right, even if it worked in the case of the Colt. Personaly Im hoping that Parelli would not include that as level anything.
Im not trying to have a go at Virtuallyhorses,I enjoy reading posts,but im troubled by story of hitting horse across the legs with force when training.

A good old fashioned loud " shhhhhh!!!" and arm waving works perfectly well with all the farm animals that I have ever seen get up to bolshy antics, {exept in case of mad bull when your better off giving him lots of space" and you can't better teaching a dog through patience to understand "no!"
:)

[Sue Carnell]

Hi Fred,

From what I can gather phase 4 in Parelli can be a lot tougher than I would go to. It wouldn't involve a stinging dressage whip though. The funny thing I find is that the more experienced and better the horseperson, the lesser their phase 4 seems to be. I think that sometimes what you think is phase 4 is actually phase 10, but if you don't quite get where to be, when to be and how to be, you have to up the phases. If you're really in the wrong place though, the phases can be upped as much as you like, you won't get the answer I feel, though horses can often be bullied into doing what we want, eventually it all goes wrong, or we damage them imo. I do tend to analyse where, how and when I am to the nth degree if what I'm doing isn't working, rather than upping the phases. Some Parelli folk would probably say that I never find phase 4 and that I'm wrong, as I'm not prepared to go there. The phases also depend on the horse. What might be phase 4 for a sensitive arab or tb might be only phase 1 for a more dull horse. Thankfully I'm lucky with my horses and I find I'm having to try harder to do less, rather than convince myself to do more. :)

I don't think a tap on the rump would be considered phase 4 though Yann, or even abusive. More like convincing your horse that you do mean it and you are confident. If they do as they're told because you hurt them if they don't, then I think that's force, but a tap on the rump I don't think does hurt. It's more a driving thing and convincing of your leadership from behind, than a beating into submission thing. If it hadn't worked, then I don't think hitting her harder would have been the thing to do, but as a go forward cue it's fine to me.

To my mind however, whipping a young colt's forelegs with a dressage whip isn't a good reflection on the person training. The colt should probably have been taken away from the demo situation and his respect and manners problems dealt with in a different way. His lack of respect was probably down to his previous handling and I believe that a good trainer would have judged the situation and removed the colt before it got that far. I would imagine that many people went away from that John Lyons' demonstration either believing that it's ok to whip a horse's legs, or that John Lyons isn't so good as they might have thought he was. Either way, I think it was probably a mistake on his part. Many horses, particularly those who have already suffered violent abuse would not react in the way the colt appeared to have and would respond violently themselves. I personally don't think it's a good lesson to teach. Of course, I wasn't there, so I can't really judge.

Sue
sue@eclipse.co.uk

[Mossy]

What is "violence" and what is "polite enforcement" imho it all depends on the circumstances, the horse and the person who is doing the reminding. I "would NEVER throw anything at a horse" Hpwever a couple of years ago I was walking through a warren of interconnected fields in the dusk to find Connie, walked through a blind open gateway, to find 17hh of black horse hammering along the hedge towards me and I dare not anticipate his direction as I would have been flattened if I had got it wrong. [He thought I was his owner with his tea!] The rubber curry comb I had in my hand was used gentley but very effectively to divert him from me. No hard feelings later either way from horse or owner. However when. a few months later, I caught somebody throwing something at Connie, I hit the roof. There was no reason apart from their fear! I know those are extreme examples but thery serve to illustrate the point

[cvb]

the one thing about levels is that it is NEVER with anger.

So the intent/emotion behind the whip on front legs would be a big part of it.

I would also question if there are other ways of applying pressure without resorting to this.

I mean, if you are being "natural", how many horses hit each other with whips ??! They DO bite and kick however.

You'll notice I did not particularly define an action for level 4 - partly because I don't consider myself good enough, experienced enough, to use this level of pressure. I'd have to also know EXACTLY the point to (a) escalate to level 4 and (b) release the level 4 pressure.

Given I got kicked the other day for not listening enough at a much lower level of pressure - I think it would be down right dangerous for me to get myself in a level 4 situation :eek:

SO thats why I look for lateral solutions to the same problem - getting off and leading, or getting someone to walk ahead of me, etc.

To use level 4 pressure I suspect you need to be at least "level 4 experienced". It was Virtuallyhorses who was talking about John Lyons and front legs - from what I know of John Lyons, he is pretty experienced. I would not think I could do what someone like him could do at my current level of experience/fitness etc.

[Sue Carnell]

Hi cvb,

In Parelli I think you're talking about the 4 phases, not the levels. We are expected to understand and use the 4 phases (hair, skin, muscle, bone) at pre level one and prove that we understand and can use the 4 phases if required when being tested for level 1. With Parelli we are expected to give the horse 3 seconds to respond before going to the next phase, however there are other methods whereby the phases are used differently. Perhaps giving longer at phase one and then going straight to phase 4, no in between.

Horses do bite and kick and appear to lash out in temper and they can seriously, to death even, injure each other. For myself, I don't really believe we can look to horses to see how far we can go.

I would also say that it wouldn't matter to me whether the person shooting me did so because they were angry, or whether it was with considered coolness. It would still at least hurt and injure me, at most kill me. ;)

I do think it's wrong to lash out in temper, but more understandable to me than coolly beating a horse into submission. I think controlling emotions is not an excuse for abuse, so I don't feel it's relevant really. I understand that I'm replying to different points though.

This is an emotive subject and I would agree where someone said somewhere else, on a par with a discussion on whether to smack/cane children really.

To me the John Lyons example was setting a horse up to fail and then reprimanding him when he did, but that could be a misinterpretation. I would throw a cruise missile at the horse in the situation you describe Mossy, but that is different. That couldn't be expected and you have to act on your feet in totally unplanned for and unexpected situations. Safety first (on both sides) of course, unless the situation could have been avoided, and then it's apologies all round and a determination to do better next time.

Sue
sue@eclipse.co.uk

[cvb]

having one of my 'clear as mud' moments so I took a pause before replying.

Yes Sue, I was interchanging 'phase' and 'level', but that was a little bit on purpose. Although the result may have been more confusing than enlightening :(

And whilst I hear what you say about Parelli phases of pressure, how come the man himself was talking about it varying ?

At the UK conference he said that the amount of pressure in each phase of pressure will vary e.g. as the horse learns.

So at the beginning you may be working with (my example not his) 10, 20, 30, 40 "units" of pressure as phase 1,2,3,4 - but then it will become 5, 10, 15, 20, or maybe 1,2,3,4

(He was talking more about each phase being maybe 10 times more than the last, but I just used the numbers as an illustration - hence not using any 'real' units of pressure measurement).

And that it varies by horse, by day etc.

And whilst as a Level 1 student I may need to use and understand the phases of pressure for the games, that does not mean that I am necessarily qualified/educated to use them in all situations.

[Sue Carnell]

Hi cvb,

Yes, apparently the phases do vary, from horses to horse and day to day. That's what I mean in my other post when I said it depends on the horse. I think interchanging level with phase did confuse me. So what you're saying is that you have a horse who needs a level 4 person to teach her and as you're not level 4 you misjudged the phases and that's why you got kicked? As I never up any pressure to anywhere near what some Parelli instructors would call phase 4, then I'm not qualified either. :)

Sue
sue@eclipse.co.uk

[cvb]

Sue - not quite. Though the Parelli team DO talk about working with an 'easy' horse first and my little mare is a somewhat of a character !

What I was saying was that I am not yet experienced enough to know how to use Phase 4 pressure outside of the games.

(Actually she's sensitive enough that we never get as far as phase 4 pressure in the games.)

But in an unusual situation - like a stream crossing - I would rather look for more options at phase 1, 2 or 3 of pressure before I went to phase 4 pressure. i.e. applying the lower level of pressure in a different way, or direction or whatever.

The point about getting kicked was to illustrate that I have not got my 'listening' tuned in enough yet. So she was telling me she was not ready to do something yet, I did not listen enough - so she upped HER phase of pressure on me. She was not actually aiming to kick ME, but was just kicking out - and I was in the wrong place at the wrong time. If I want to have a conversation in "horse" then I can hardly blame her for using exactly that language !

I learnt the lesson :eek:

[Yann]

Don't know if there is an easy answer to this one, essentially in all our activities we are making the horse do something unnatural ie. be ridden or similar. The only way to acheive this is through persuasion and coercion of one sort or another. I suppose at the NH end of the scale the idea is to try and make it as clear and easy for the horse as possible by trying to communicate in a way that they can understand. And also to try and see things from their perspective when it isn't working. It wouldn't do to be too precious about it, as has already been mentioned horses operate between themselves with threat and use of force.

I hacked out this weekend with a whip, which other than a soft tap to let Rio know it was there to get her moving purposefully off the yard remained totally unused. She was keen and forward all the way round and there were no disputes about going through mud or water. Felt bit of a cheat though:) If it ever stops raining and the mud dries up a bit I'm going to leave it behind again.

Caroline, glad to hear things are going well, especially with Zak. Rio has very good manners on the ground, we've tried to set boundaries from day one and she's normally very easy to work with (apart from the odd snacking enquiry:D). Any little challenges can normally be dealt with with a bit of eye contact and body language, for example her manners sometimes slip a bit when the dinner bucket is anticipated:D

[FRED]

I don't get to spend anyhting like the time I wish I could round horses due to my Work and responsiblities there.
Again not wishing to be contraversial,
But no book or teacher has taught me that horses who fight, bully or pull face, kick or barge get what I would call total respect from horse on the receiving end, {other than the no1 in the herd....}
I have noticed that horse who are on the recieving end of such antics, avoid the horse that troubles them in most case.
For me this is why I would never even consider using horse antics on horse, thats just me:) from what I think watching horse has taught me, force doesen't win respect in a herd, from what I have seen it causes avoidence, so why try to emulate it unless you want to be dominant.Not for me.
I think most horse are naturaly curious about us, and actualy do enjoy spending time with humans with out bribes too.
I feel for sure there are riders who would have a right laugh at my own thoughts about horse and what they teach me, but I think horse would let me know if they didn't like me on their back or near them.

Yann thats just how I feel occasionaly when I have used whip.

I think its clear that experience is a massive advantage;)

[Kerry's Partner]

Maybe the three of us are "strange" human beings but it's obvious I feel the same too. I have ridden one of the school horses out on a hack 2/3 times now - accompanying my home-based instructor riding my own horse (and that's another story).

I'd say she definitely doesn't like mud (but Kerry just marches on through it all) and she doesn't like that pebbled concrete stuff either (but Kerry just breezes across it). I'd also say she knows that I know - but them I'm strange I guess.

[FRED]

Sussed again..

Sophie is happy to divert around mud unless horse in front tip toe's a liitle too much around the mud.
Well its crystal clear what she's unashamedly thinking, 'maybe if you let us go through the mud, we can get in front, who cares about mud, lets go for it' shes a character:D

[Kerry's Partner]

Yes Fred - Kerry goes through it all I'm sure BECAUSE she's in front and likes to feel regal. There I am sitting on another horse behind her. BUT Nuz really doesn't want to go in front - she really hates the mud and the pebbled concrete but she's far too subdued to object - except if you look at yer eyes whilst you feel her almost go on tiptoes 'cause she must have sensitive soles I guess. (Yes I know I should be looking over her ears!!!)

[FRED]

Those eyes and ears :)
Not wishing to be bad influence to anyone, but I was taught / told when cantering outdoors to look to the horizon and not to watch horse in front. Certainly looking to horizon has proven in my case to have helped my cantering loads.But....
Im afraid I just could not help to look down at you know who's eye's while erm going the fastest I ever have on horse last weekend , Im busy looking at ears too.Is there hope!!