Running Martingale?

[Hels]

I have a pony on loan to me who I keep on working livery. When she came to me she was being ridden in a Dutch Gag with a Standing Martingale and was throwing her head up in the air all the time. We ditched the standing martingale pretty quickly, then my instructor suggested a pelham which I jumped at having read EE. She goes quite nicely for me in the Pelham (and would go even better if I was more skillful!) but it is not really suitable for her working livery days.

The yard owner tried her in a plain loose-ring jointed snaffle, feeling that even the dutch gag on its own was causing her to throw her head up. She went quite nicely in the snaffle for a while, I was using it on hacks and occasionally in the school if I wasn't using the rubber pelham.

However, she has started to get strong on the hacks in it (she has been in at night recently which may be partly to blame), and a couple of people who have either ridden her in the school or watched her have commented to me that they think she needs a running martingale because she is poking her nose right out or throwing her head right up.

Do you think a Running Martingale might help? I am put off because the Standing Martingale was making matters a lot worse. Or should I try something else? I'll continue to ride her in the Pelham but I do need to sort out an alternative as she has a variety of riders and they would not all be able or be instructed to use the Pelham correctly.

[Lgd]

Martingales cause more problems than they solve - most horses just learn to use them as a tool for leaning on.

Part of the problem is probably down to multiple riders and many of those will not be competent for a single jointed snaffle never mind a pelham. A problem with single jointed snaffles is the nutcracker action, in experienced quiet hands they are not a problem but novice hands can make them quite severe. It may be worth looking for a different bit altogether. Those worth considering would be an unjointed snaffle possibly of the happy mouth variety, a double-jointed snaffle such as a French link (not a Dr Bristol) or a hanging cheek snaffle (contrary to what most people think these are quite mild and the amount of poll action is actually minimal, the hanging cheek design gets rid of the nutcracker action to a great extent).

[Maria]

A correctly fitted running martingale won't stop your horse poking her nose but it should stop her flinging her head up violently and hitting the rider in the face. A running martingale won't stop a horse getting strong on a hack.

Some horses tend to brace up against a running martingale negating its purpose. Given the way your mare reacted to a standing martingale you might find this problem.

It is difficult when different people are riding your horse.

When I first had my mare I had her on part loan at a riding school. On hacks I was told never to ride her without the gag rein attached to the gag snaffle and of course she had a running martingale too. Once I bought her and was the only one riding her it was possible to get to the point where she could be hacked out - even in company - in an ordinary snaffle with no martingale.

Maria

[cvb]

probably should not say this too loud - but a running martingale might help 'protect' your horse's mouth from the less experienced riders hands as well....

I have seen them adjusted a little short, so that if the riders hand bounce, some of the bounce is taken out by the martingale, and the contact to the horse's mouth is via the martingale rings.

Bit rotten on the rider, and not "correct", but might help.

[Hels]

Wow - thanks for the prompt replies! Maria and Lgd I think you may be right about the leaning - she was certainly doing that with the standing martingale. Lgd instinctively I think you are so right about the nutcracker action. She certainly has quite a strong reaction to the bit at times which makes me think she must feel like she is being jabbed in the roof of the mouth.

Lgd I am really interested in your suggestions. I have seen Happy Mouth bits in saddleries and thought they looked nice and comfortable. Do they give much control though? Carrie could be fairly strong with her Cobby neck - that's my only concern. Is a French link milder than a single jointed snaffle? I think I can understand the theory of why it would be.

Cvb - an interesting thought. I don't give two hoots about what's good for the rider, just Carrie! I saw a video clip of me trotting on Carrie and was horrified to see how much my own hands were bouncing!

Part of the problem is that she is really very forward going, especially for a school horse - I was terrified when I first got on her and we went charging round unprompted - and thought she was nothing like any of the other horses I had ridden at the stables! The instructors seem to have got a much better idea as to who can cope with her and who can't now and only put the more relaxed riders on her, some of whom can ride her really well. But because she is so forward going I think some people must tend to pull the reins a lot to try and feel in control. But then I watched my friend riding her who is really very competent and she was going round with her head in the air even for her.

[Mossy]

I use a running martingale rarely and as an extra help in the case of an excitable horse out in fast company. Could the school riders be hanging onto her mouth? If so a correctly fitted breastplate would not affect saddle fit and would give an extra "handle" for the rider so they do not balance on her mouth. I regularly use breastplates on my two. Moss has a breastplate for Hunting and I freely admit to grabbing hold on more than one occasion when we get over excited and he forgets that horses are supposed to be quadrupeds not bipeds! [If you hang onto the pommel it goes out the back door with you!] [You can always fit a martingale attachment for your use if you feel you need it]

[Lgd]

Switching to a theoretically milder bit often gives better control.
I use french links in both of my horses, Peri doesn't like the nutcracker action of a single joint and backs off the bridle. Tavia runs through a single jointed snaffle like it isn't there but is quite amenable in a single jointed drop cheek snaffle or an eggbutt french-link. Peri is fairly dainty but has a big neck for a TB (from the dressage training) but Tavia has a neck that would rival most cobs :D Some horses find the happy mouth bits very comfortable and pull much less. It might be useful to use the bitbank to find a bit that suits.

[AmandaW]

Hi,
I too would would agree less is often more as far as bitting goes. I would be tempted to double check her teeth and saddle fit too.

I wouldn't say I used to haul Leah into an outline but boy did she lean on me. She was either overbent or a giraffe or bombing off with nice bits in between. I am now just bringing her back working in walk (hoof repair so only walk on the soft allowed), the only difference is her saddle (Saddle Co, serge panels) and the dentist has been, and I have noticed quite a change. The contact has become much lighter and she has worked flexing at the poll rather than half way down her neck!

A

[Mehitabel]

2 of our school ponies wear running martingales for exactly that reason, cvb. they're both lovely ponies who get uptight with wavy hands! the neckstrap helps as well, as you can ask the rider to hook the little fingers under it and feel how much they pull on it - good for awareness.
i've seen it recommended in quite a few books.

[ros]

I'm not sure a running martingale would ease the problems caused by inexperienced riders: on the contrary, I read that it can actually exaggerate the action of the bit.

I'd almost be tempted to say that if other people are riding the horse it might be an option just to leave the Pelham on but remove the curb chain. That way there's no risk of nutcracker action from a snaffle (which it sounds as though she doesn't like), the mouthpiece is the same so psychologically there's not much change for her to notice, and you retain a little bit of poll pressure, but there's no danger of her being damaged by the curb. (Or use an elastic curb instead for better riders.) Well, it would be interesting, anyway :)

[Sue Watson]

If she is running through the snaffle with other riders but goes well for you in the pelham perhaps you could consider a kimblewick. This would give a little poll pressure which may encourage her to lower her head but would not have the two reins or the curb chain. If she is getting really wild and out of control I would put the standing martingale back on but not to strap her head down, purely to stop her getting her head above the point of control of the bit. An hanging cheek snaffle with a straight bar or a double joint might also be an option if you can get one.

[Hels]

Thanks again everyone. AmandaW her teeth have been rasped twice in the six months I've had her and it is true she had a small ulcer the first time which the vet said would probably go away after rasping and it did. It was interesting that the vet said that there was some wear on her back teeth indicating that she carries the bit in her teeth - he said there is nothing you can do about it. I've also had the saddle checked and re-flocked.

Ros that might be an idea but for the fact that I think it would be too much hassle to keep taking the chain on and off and the yard owner doesn't seem keen on the Pelham anyway. She wants to go back to the standing martingale (groan), use a flash (but I have not noticed Carrie opening her mouth particularly) but is also prepared to consider a straight bar bit (which would be a bit like the Pelham without curb) or a double jointed bit which would not have the nutcracker action. I don't have a bitbank near me but a friend says she has got lots of bits I could try out, so I think I might take her up on her offer.

I am starting to wish I was the only one riding her! Initially it did her a lot of good having some other people riding her because they were all more experienced than I was and she was very green not having been schooled. Now I've improved so much and she has settled down I feel more precious about it! She really only does have reasonably experienced riders on her, though, and even then not often - maybe a two or three lessons a week, because there aren't that many clients that are suitable to ride her. Nearly all the kids fall off or cry because she bombs round if in doubt or being ridden by anyone tense, and she gets taken out of the lesson!!

[ros]

Is there no way you could reduce the number of people riding your horse? Maybe if you could pay a little tiny bit extra they could restrict it to more experienced riders. As for bits, if I had a horse on working livery I would certainly want the final say about what tack was to be used. She can certainly advise you, but whether you choose to agree or disagree with her advice is entirely up to you.

[Hels]

Hi Ros, thanks for your suggestions. I'm not really unhappy with who they put on Carrie - she selects out people who aren't relaxed enough by scaring them to death! So only people who are probably more experienced than I am get to ride her and as I say, she isn't used much anyway. Many weeks go by when she is only used for one day in the week out of the three the riding school officially has her. It suits me because they have to look after her on their days whether they need her or not.

Yes of course I can insist what tack is used but it could backfire if I make the instructors use tack that they are not happy with. If I was more knowledgeable I would probably have found something right at the start and insist they stick with it - but I was in no position even to know the names of different bits when I took Carrie on! I am in many ways in the hands of those who have more experience and those on this board! I'd like to find a compromise that I and the instructors are happy with.

I rode her in the snaffle on a hack (in company) today and looked out for this throwing her head up. I've noticed that she only really does it when she doesn't like what she is being asked to do. So when you first get on she is incredibly impatient to get moving - somewhere, anywhere - and will throw her head up when you ask her to stand while you tighten the girth - however gently you ask it seems. But once you are trotting or even cantering she doesn't seem to do it so much, even when you have a strong contact and give quite a tug to slow her down. She'll do it though if she is jogging and you try to pull her up to get her to walk instead. Don't get me on to the subject of jogging though! Actually the one good thing is it has helped me with sitting trot - you get a chance to put Heather's teaching into practice in gentle slow motion! My instructor was delighted with my sitting trot this week - she told me it takes some clients years to get it right. Thanks Heather!