FAO Heather: Bits and teeth!

[Gracie]

First of all your book is GREAT! I just got my copy and I've been reading it like Crazy! I would like to ask you a bit of advice on a few issues if your willing to offer any advice...
For starters,
My horse rears, I've had her since she was a yearling and I promise she never been mistreated! So I'm assuming its a pain issue. I'm having her teeth checked though many other people in the barn say that a three year old wouldn't need any dental work... Because some professionals say they would some say they wouldn't so my first question is would a three year old need dental work? I know you can't tell since you can't see her, but I guess the question is .. is it common for a three year old to need dental work? and Also that could be a possibility to her rearing if she did?

Secondly, I changed her bit, I was riding her in a Copper Roller Snaffle and changed to a copper full cheek snaffle and thats when she started misbehaving.. could it be causing her pain? I read in your book you don't like the idea of using snaffles... you suggest using a pelham? I thought Pelhams were more sirvere? Shes not a fast horse at all but would it make the bit more comfortable for her? Im just worried it would her her more, I've heard many trainers say they switched horses from a harsh bit to snaffle... I understand the reasoning behinding the pinching though which I read in your book!

Anyways if you can offer any advice I'd love to hear from you!
Sincerly Gracie & Kristan!

[IrisSilverMoon]

has she had her wolf teeth pulled? sometimes that's the problem, the bit puts pressure on them when you ride and it might be hurting her.

[Gracie]

No she hasnt had any teeth pulled, but one tooth fell out .. I think its a cap???

[galadriel]

Horses need their teeth watched no matter what their age. Horses chew such that their teeth do not wear evenly; in some, it's not drastic and may not be noticed for years. Some need their teeth floated every 6mo. If your horse has never had her teeth looked at, it will NOT hurt to check!

A three-year-old is growing teeth that could be causing a mouth problem; teething isn't fun no matter what your species ;)

If you noticed a direct correlation between a change of bit and behavior, then it's 90% certain that the change of bit had something to do with it.

Young horses I have ridden offer to rear if they are balanced uphill and frustrated, or asked to go forward and don't know how, or asked to go forward and restrained by the reins. (Horses balanced on the forehand often buck instead.) Your horse is expressing frustration at SOMEthing--at her age, teeth is a definite suspect, and definitely change the bit back. If you want her to go in something different from her previous bit, find something that she doesn't object to :)

We've seen a few discussion here about bits. Typically, the consensus is that you use the bit your horse prefers! If your horse started misbehaving when you started using this bit, GET RID OF IT! Find one your horse *doesn't* object to. If she went fine in the previous one, why did you change it?

There are many, many different kinds of bits--and many different kinds of mouths. Some horses go fine in a snaffle. Some prefer a pelham, or a simple mullen mouth, or a french-link. If you can borrow some to try out, that may be halpful.

Finally, let me assure you that a bit can completely transform a horse. My Duchess hates bits; I can't ride dressage without one (I typically ride her in halter/lead rope, but that's not acceptable for competitions!) I got her a Happy Mouth bit. The first time I rode her in it, she was so relaxed, stepping well up under herself and so limber laterally, that I was afraid she was going lame--the difference in riding her was that drastic. She had simply stopped tensing up.

Good luck :)

[IrisSilverMoon]

was there some reason you changed the bit in the first place? can you change it back and see if she improves?

[ros]

Just a quick note on Heather's book - it isn't that she doesn't like snaffles, but she's found so many horses that don't like them, or don't understand them. As she says, if a horse needs re-educating, the Pelham is a very good bit, but once they understand what's required you can often put them back in a snaffle no problem (unless they happen to be one of the horses that hate snaffles, of course :) ).

Personally I really don't like copper rollers, and I can't see why you'd need to put a baby in one? To my mind a youngster should be in a nice simple bit until it's found its balance and learned what's what.

[Gracie]

Ok lots of quesitons to answer...
I really just wanted Heathers opinion mainly because I'm reading her book... not to say I don't apprecaite your opinions, I do, I just wanted to learn more about the pelham!:) And I apprecaite all your concern.

My horse cannot go in rubber bits because she chews thru them , I orginally had her in a happy mouth loose ring snaffle and she ate threw it. I changed to the copper roller because it causes the horse to play with the rollers, thus not chew on the bit:) She liked the copper roller. I changed her from the copper roller to the full cheek snaffle for steering purposes, and because the girl I had riding her for me said that the copper roller can be a harsh bit, but opinions change in that one, some people concider it harsh others don't!

Thats my story on the bit changing, and I'm planning on getting her teeth checked regardless if its the bit or not!

Thanks for all your help!:)

[Heather]

Hi Gracie,

Sorrynot to reply earlier, but for some reason, NR had been denying me access! I think that some new software I had installed for Bluetooth, had given my computer a headache!!

Regarding your 3 year old, how much have you done with her so far- when did you start her? How much work have you done with her each day and what has the work consisted of? It will help a lot if you can let me know these things-

Heather

[Gracie]

Hi Heather!:)
Thanks for replying, I don't care how long it took you to reply, I'm just greatful that you are on this board to answer questions!:)

Ok she was started at two and a half, but that was the first time she had a rider on her back. Then she was left for three months! Then I occasional got on her and walked her around. I left her for the next year, just grooming her everyother day and working on voice commands and lunging.

Then I moved her to her new barn, where we started working on walk trot. And trotting poles. Halting and backing up. Working for about twenty minutes a day sometimes a little more sometimes less. She started bucking when I tried to ask for the canter, so I thought there maybe a problem so I didn't want to push her. Then she started to rear when ever I asked her to move forward. If you put even the slightest leg on she rears.

Yesterday while grooming her I pushed on where her teeth are from the outside and she through her head up, I did the same pressure near her ears to see if she was just be grouchy but she didn't react to the pressure near her ears, just near her jawline!:)

Thanks in advance for any help.

[Heather]

HI Gracie,

Two and a half is considered very young to put a rider up here in the UK. You are not allowed to show a horse under saddle at less than 4 years of age.

It doesn't sound as if you have been overworking her since, but the teeth may well be causing a problem. I would get a good equine dentist to check her out- as any tooth pain will cause a horse to go resist or evade in whatever way they can.

If you press her sides with the heel of your hand when not on her back, how does she react?


Also, what height and build is she, in relation to you? Sorry to sound a bit personal here, but it can have a bearing on the problem.


Heather

[Gracie]

Hi Heather!
I'm only 95 pounds and 5"2!:)
My horse is a Tb/Paint, the with a slim chest but big bum;) Shes 16.2?
I hope that helps! I understand about the starting a horse later in the UK!:) In north america its very common to break a horse at an earlier age, not that I agree with it!
Thanks again!

[Heather]

HI Gracie,

You are certainly NOT underhorsed then!! If you have had her back and teeth checked out, then I really think that you would benefit from doing some Parelli or similar with her. I don't agree with everything Parelli does as I feel that at times, it can pressurise the horse too much, but there is no doubt that the methods have been very successful with several of my pupils horses who were confirmed buckers or rearers. The good thing is too, it is stuff that you can do yourself through the Parelli levels.


Sue ( Carnell) who is my assistant and also a Parelli student, ( although Sue was taught this type of stuff years before by an Irish horse whisperer, who is actually the Father of a well known dressage trainer in the UK!) what do you think?

Heather

[issy]

I'm intrigued!. Which dressage rider?

[Sue Carnell]

Well, I certainly learned to think laterally and a lot of what they did for problem horses would be what would be recognised as natural horsemanship methods nowadays. They have elaborated on it now too. I think the Irish (and Romanies) were considered to be the first 'horse whisperers', but it was in their interest not to show people what they really did and the people I worked for wouldn't have considered themselves 'whisperers', though they do use 'voice'. :D

I feel that the Parelli games and programme are a good introduction to this kind of interaction and problem solving. It does receive a lot of criticism as not being quite right and there being far better horsemen than PP himself, but it is relatively easy to learn and once on this kind of track handling and understanding wise, it's easier to then look at what other horsemen are saying and doing and understand what they mean too.

I think, like anything, it depends on what you do with what you're learning. It's people not programmes who pressure horses and no-one has to put pressure on them if they don't want to. Some of the advice given by some parelli enthusiasts seems a bit extreme to me too. Such as restricting the horse's water to when you're there to make them easier to catch and using implements such as screwdrivers and hoofpicks to get the horse to move away from pressure. I personally don't think we need to go quite that far!

Still, it's very difficult to find anywhere to learn this kind of thing and I still say that the Parelli programme is as good a start as anything.

Sue
sue@eclipse.co.uk

[Gracie]

Thanks Guys!:)
The equine dentist should be coming in the next week to look at her teeth! From there if she needs any dental work it will be done, I'm praying that is the problem, because she is fairly eaisy to groom, lead and handle. Its just when theres any pressure put on her, like riding or even lunging she bucks and rears, but usually in the corner when there is more pressure being pushed against the side of her face. I'm hoping to do some round pen work with her as well the lady who owns the barn is going to work on that with me.. is that similar to parlelli? Thanks again for your advice and help!
~Kristan~

[Heather]

Thanks Sue,

As you say, it is 'people, not programmes' that put pressure on. I think that some PNH people have probably taken what Pat himself teaches, out of context. It is so easy for this to happen, when the purity of the teaching can get watered down as it gets passed on further down the line.

I think as with all things, use your own discretion. If any trainer or instructor asks you to do things that you are not comfortable with, and that you feel puts the horse under too much pressure, say so and refuse to do it.



Heather

[Susan C]

Firstly Hi to Heather, I have come back as you suggested.. Hopefully I will get answers to many questions

also Hi to Sue,, who I owe a great deal to for helping me over 18months ago. Remember me with Jack!

Both of these people have been a great inspiration to me.


The teeth and young horses.
I bought my youngster aged 3 1/2yrs I had him vetted basic as unbacked they cant be put through as much. But the Vet who is a friend ( although I still have a Bill!) said he would not need a dentist yet as he had no eruptions as he called it.

I went with my own opinion, I had the dentist check him, now I cant comment in the states, but I have one of the New Qualified dentist, who also to go to the state for further training.

He knows my vet and he was aghast to hear what was recommended. All my children attended dentists as babies why are horses any different.

Flynn did need some attention at the back. It was just after he had been bitted, before we backed him. I am so pleased I did this, what implications could this had ,had. All sorts of problems which most would have blamed on horse, bit, rider, ???

He is looked at 6months intervals, which will next be before he comes back into work.

I have also had his back checked before he was backed, and again due to checked before returning.

It is strange how things are different with water between us.did before

[Gracie]

Thanks again for everyones in put!
Thats the way I feel too its better to be safe then sorry. A lot of the people at the barn think its an "attitdude" thing, but these people have just met my horse... I've known her for 2 years now, I think it goes deeper then just a bad attitude.

You guys are great! Thanks:)

[NZhorserider]

Make sure the dentist does a eally good job of the teeth. They should really have their whole arm nearly in the horses mouth and get right to the back teeth. We had a vet do some teeth at the stables, and she whizzed through heaps of horses and didn't do it properly. She did a horse a few days ago even, and she was in so much pain today she couldn't be ridden! It was quite alarming after putting my hand in her mouth and actually feeling how sharp the teeth were.

Other things which could cause rearing, saddle fitting, bridle fitting, feet problems, sore muscles etc.

I use a French link which Razzie really loves. Mullens are great too.

[ros]

The main thing with teeth is that whoever does it - vet or dentist - should do what needs to be done and no more. Over-rasping can loosen the teeth and that will eventually lead to gum problems. I wouldn't really rely on the length of time spent as a measure of efficiency, and I don't think I'd want anyone rooting about in my horse's mouth for a long time - I'd rather have the treatment done in a couple of sessions. If you stick to little and often you can avoid that sort of thing anyway.

[Gracie]

Thanks again guys:) Your always pulling through for me!
I'm getting one of the best vets/dentist in my area to come in and do my horses teeth, so hopefully all the good stuff Ive heard about him is true!
Thanks again for your advice!

[NZhorserider]

That's great! The dentist is going to busy when he comes to the stable where I ride! The horses are being ridden in halters until he comes! It's a bit of a learning curve!

[Shiny McShine]

What's wrong with the horses? It seems a bit drastic to have to ride them all in halters. Haven't they had their teeth done for a long time?

[NZhorserider]

Well, the vet did their teeth, but not near as well as they should have been done. I could still feel them so sharp I nearly cut my finger! The sharpness of the teeth and then a bit and bridle was just too much for them to handle! The horse dentist is coming out, hopefully soon and the horses have been turned out since today.

[Shiny McShine]

Hopefully they will get them done properly this time. :) It is a worry when vets don't do their job properly.

[Tootsie4U]

So, whatever happened with your horse? Did her teeth need looking after afterall?

Has it helped with her rearing, etc.?

Just wondering :p