Bits & Freedom

[Susan C]

My Question is not related to my horse, but to the one my daughter rides for someone.
Spot is a Appy X?? approx 15.2 aged approx 9 but in schooling terms 5yrs.
He has always in the past had a very short choppy stride, before my daughter rode him, he was also unsettled a lot in the mouth, hollow, plus lacked confidence as a horse.
In the 4 months she has ridden him, he has improved vastly in the mouth and better acceptance of the bit, have tried various including a Myler, which did have good resuts but still far to go.
The stride was showing some improvement, but again such a way to go on that situation. It is intended for him to S/J and X/C

His owner changed his shoeing to Cytek, many reason,s but no lameness todate.
It was amazing that next day his stride improved, the instructor did not know the shoes had changed, but remarked on a vast improvement. Plus his bit acceptance was better. Daughter was given idea to try for a couple of weeks, which seem to have also helped, BUT what is still amazing us all is this little horse keeps showing more & more freedom through his shoulder which has the obvious result a longer stride. It has even shown elevation which we never saw before.

PLUS another factor he is now at last showing a wetter foamed mouth, that has never been seen before, Even the Myler or the KK never had this result.

Is this all related, does the freedom through his body creat a better acceptance of the bit. His head carriage is a much better position and mostly self carriage, not up in the air as before, he stretches down more then before, his balance has also improved.

he appears a Bigger horse now then before, and of course much rounder. We know he tracks up and keeps straight not the swinging in of the quarters we used to see.
He listens to what is asked now, rather then rushing as before.

He seems to appear as if so much happier and certainly much more relaxed.

IF the Picture works this was his first S/J show 2 days after Cytek shoes and he got 4th 1st clas double clear! a good lad and my daughter helping him through all this. She has the xmas hat on.

[Heather]

Hi Susan,

I think that the Cytek can have amazing results. I know of several horses who have either recovered from seemingly incurable hoof problems, ranging from chronic laminitis to navicular, who have recovered and are in full work after Cytek shoeing. I also know of others whose movement has changed out of all recognition, and therefore, often the rest of the body balance changes too.

I am desperately trying to persuade my farrier to try Cytek. He just grumbles and says it is a load of nonsense. Trouble is, he is a friend and has shod for me for many years, goes on regular courses etc, yet just shuts off to this idea.

My own Hispano Arab Fantasia, came over frmo Portugal with typically appalling feet- farriery over ther is generally terrible. Although my farrier has improved his feet a great deal I still feel that the Cytek would make a huge further improvement. It makes a lot of sense to me, as so many farriers leave the toes far too long resulting in impaired performance.

I think that the Cytek has more to do with the improvement than anything else, Susan. Lucky you for having it available!!

Heather

[Cathy Reynolds]

What is Cytek shoeing, please?

[Sue Carnell]

Well this is where Heather and I agree to differ! ;)

I've also met many cyteked horses and don't actually like it. For some with serious problems it does seem to have made worst better. For 'normal' horses I've found it actually makes them build abnormal shoulder muscle and unusual movement and hasn't always been the answer the owners have hoped for. Could of course be to do with the particular farrier, rather than the particular method.

I have seen a number of normal, as in no apparent problem before, horses being put back into more usual shoes, or barefoot being tried.

Personally, I prefer barefoot if possible and if not, a less extreme kind of alternative shoeing with quarter clips in front and shortened toes, but not actual Cyteks or the original natural horse shoeing of this kind. I'll probably be proved wrong about this one day, but in the meantime I'll stick to barefoot and Marquis boots, or less extreme shoeing. :)

Sue
sue@eclipse.co.uk

[Susan C]

Thanks Heather for replying.

Also to Cathy.
For loads of info visit www.cytekhorse.com the site is now much improved, also go to the international bit, Wayne over in Australia has even more info. I am in the forum..I am a sad Cytek Anorak, but only for reasons of horses best interest.

" Heathers comments",
as you know I went this route with Jack with bruised soles and never looked looked back. This horse whilst with me had such improved feet, Not the typical TB long toes, low heels, very poor hoof. His feet were fantastic. Unfortunatly his owner decided to sell him, I chose not to buy (long story) I have recently found out he is dead, he was not kept in Cytek he then suffered Pedal Ostitus, which was probably already showing an appearance, but Cytek kept this at bay through the correct support and improved circulation.
Imagine how that made me feel.

Flynn has never been conventionally shod and never will be. He has comments made about his paces, his freedom of movement. His balance. He did dish slightly at vetting, now only if very tired and not moving correct.

In the yard we have 2 newbies to Cytek, 1 is Spot, whose owner changed because she thought his feet are not going the way she would like to see, he was becoming higher & higher, long in toes, contracted heels, no frogs. Being shod every 4 weeks @50.00 a throw. Why???
So he did not lose shoes
Cytek to start will be 6 weeks then as time goes it could be as infrequent as 10 weeks plus @55.00.
To see the difference is priceless.

The other is our yard owner, her horse is a 9yr old ID X TB,
for 2 yrs I have been there I have seen his feet get bigger, flatter, lower, sliping more, tripping more, not going forward, put down to lazy, then this summer he never recovered from lameness tottally, x-ray showed early start of navigular/pedal ostitus, soles are as soft, that I could push in with my thumb.
Not sound and certainly not moving. Eggbars did not help much at all except he could walk, but not correct.

He is moving with a trot that has LIFT! his stride has increased, he can turn better then ever before.
but he still sufferes concussion on concrete and will continue to do so for a while longer as the blood circulation gives feelings he has not felt before. he will improve I know, but this will be a more uphill battle, but he had no other choice. he will have a life now, which he certainly was going to be very limited before.

Cytek did have a bad reputation when shoes were first sold to any farrier untrained and some farriers have heard that, that was so sad that happened. It really had bad implications.

Also this means all they have been taught is in fact often causing the problems our horses suffer, all through conventional shoeing. They shoe to the feet, if the feet go long they still shoe to them, they get longer.

It is different, it changes the rules, it makes sense to who will
listen, and think how the horse should be, within the convines we give it.Cytek want to replicate as near to nature with a shod horse, as we put them in an environment that needs it, or the horse needs it. Some horse may not go barefoot, life would be easier if they could, with correct trim. I personaly am hopeing Flynn will keep unshod at backs, as I had them removed when he was let down. It depends on his first footprint and environment.
I dont hold out much hope.


The changes Cytek has shown is mind blowing but many can not take it in, or refuse to take it in.

Many vets do not understand it.

But so far I have had contact with over 30 horses that have All been having problems that vets/farriers could not make better, might possible manage with Big Shoes! more weight to carry around, and or Bute. Or worse.!!!!!

Anna Ross was the final reason I changed, now all of her horses are Cytek shod. It takes a problem horse for you to have changed to Cytek, then to see for yourself the life it gives it, to think different.
Your farrier is like many, Our yard owner put off changing for a few months because how her vet first thought it was about, then he read up and said give this ago it makes sense,
and her farrier who is so anti. Because he has been a friend.
But in the end her own horse was a more important issue to her.

I could not tell anyone to do this, I can only speak from experience, what I have seen, what I believe. It just keeps getting better for the horses I see & hear of on Cytek.

I never told those in the yard, they chose to ask me ,then question, and decide for themselves.
But the implications will be I am certain most of the yard will change come another 12 months. We want the local farriers to listen, take it on board and train Cytek, they will then know for them selves.
We need more Cytek guys. Mine had a terrible car crash early this year, he will be out of it for another 3 months, he is being covered by a fantastic guy who drives 98 miles for us.
We have another 30 miles away if stuck, we need more.

Heather you have to decide what is best for your horse.
But if of any use I am arranging a seminar up this way late feb I hope or early March, to let other owners know about this, I wantvets there, I want farriers there to ask questions, we need synics we also need more to know horses can be better.
I am just an horse owner, I dont work for Cytek.
But like your Book, I read it, I continue read it, it makes sense to me. But to many it changes how they were taught! they have to be re-educated.
PLUS ask any Cytek horse owner if their Cytek Farrier is cheerful and enthewisastic for his work"!!!! I have to say all the Cytek guys are!!! they cant stop themselves..Now what about my Freedon and acceptance of the Bit!!! is it all related..

[Susan C]

Originally posted by Sue Carnell
Well this is where Heather and I agree to differ! ;)

I've also met many cyteked horses and don't actually like it. For some with serious problems it does seem to have made worst better.

This could be like I have explained the increased blood circulation, abit like pins & needles what you feel as the blood flow comes back, pain.

For 'normal' horses I've found it actually makes them build abnormal shoulder muscle and unusual movement and hasn't always been the answer the owners have hoped for.

The horse to be, what it can be, might not alway be what they want.


Could of course be to do with the particular farrier, rather than the particular method.
Yes but in theory they are checked back on, but in between who knows.

Many could still have cytek shoes and not trained.

I have seen a number of normal, as in no apparent problem before, horses being put back into more usual shoes, or barefoot being tried.

Nothing wrong in that, barefoot is the best option you could wish for.
Cytek would also back that up.


Personally, I prefer barefoot if possible and if not, a less extreme kind of alternative shoeing with quarter clips in front and shortened toes,

out of interest why the clips? do you know why cytek dont have them??

have you spoken to them and asked the same questions.. or is it your own views and what you have seen?? and thought??

please dont get me wrong. I am interested all questions lead to answers. some we dont always want to hear.

Saddles springs to mind.:-(

but not actual Cyteks or the original natural horse shoeing of this kind. I'll probably be proved wrong about this one day, but in the meantime I'll stick to barefoot and Marquis boots, or less extreme shoeing. :)

Sue you have to be open minded you have been taught by Heather.

PLus you are into horses behaviour.

Now do you know they teach that to the Cytek farriers as well.

Now that is another tale of how you would prefer your farrier to handle your horse when it wont stand still, or is naughty, or worse.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I know how I prefer especially what I have seen with my young horse.

nice to talk to you again.


Sue
sue@eclipse.co.uk

[Sue Carnell]

Hi Susan,

Suddenly realised who you are!! :D Hello again.

I teach my farrier, so he does as he's told, he wouldn't dream of raising his voice, let alone a hand to either of my horses and if I wanted Cyteks he'd do the course and I'd get them! (natural alpha you see) :D My horses are never naughty either, I don't believe in it (see other threads). <g>

I prefer short toes, which are able to be shorter by the use of quarter, rather than toe clips. I don't particularly like toe clips from my research. I also find that horses who are conventionally shod appear to move more freely if they have quarter clips, short toes and more heel. Cyteks are too extreme for me and my horses spend most of their time barefoot anyway, so it's a bit moot for me really. I did originally try rubber horseshoes too, as I wasn't too keen on the concussion thing. My horse floated beautifully across grass in his rubber shoes (bounce, bounce), but seemed to stub on the roads and the shoes wore out on the side next to his hoof rather too quickly, so I dumped them too. I wasn't too keen on the nicknames I acquired from using 'rubbers' either. :D

I've already posted my particular experience of Cyteked horses and it has nothing to do with the local Cytek shoer crashing his van into the back of my car at the roundabout neither. ;)

I'm sorry Susan, but I'm not convinced.

I would also say that Heather accepting me proves she's the one with an open mind and not the other way around. :D

Sue
sue@eclipse.co.uk

[ros]

Interesting. One of our liveries has a foreign farrier (foreign as in he comes from Exeter way ;) ) and I was surprised when I first saw the way he shod - shoe fronts set very well back, and very long at the heel both in front and behind. I hadn't seen anything quite so exaggerated before.

I asked my own farrier about it and he said that was the old-fashioned way of shoeing, and that he was actually taught to shoe that way originally; a lot of people nowadays don't like it as they find shoes tend to get pulled off on account of the long heels. I think the Cytek heels aren't quite so long as these were, but there's some resemblance.

[Sue Carnell]

You mean long shoes Ros, as opposed to more heel on the actual hoof? In my post I meant more hoof heel, not longer shoes. What you describe sounds familiar to me though. The initials of this Exeter farrier aren't MT, or GD are they? If the horse's forefeet breakover is good and they get their front feet out of the way quickly enough, longer shoes (it's not called heels I think, I forget what they call the ends of the shoes) shouldn't be a problem really. However.... ;)

This would be entirely different from Cyteks though and I doubt very much either of my farriers would be the one you're talking about, as one of mine is based in Dorset and the other isn't Exeter either and has been off work for some months.

Sue
sue@eclipse.co.uk

[ros]

Yes, long shoes - not long heels on the foot :) I understood what you meant about heels, and I know this isn't the same as Cytek, but the principles of breakover and heel support seem to be there. I've just never seen a shoe set so far back before.

(And yes, I think it's GD - I don't know anything about him other than what I've seen here on our yard.)

[Sue Carnell]

Branches isn't it? Heels of the shoe I mean. Suddenly popped into my head for some reason. ;)

How long does your livery keep his/her shoes? Last I heard, the average was around 10 days, which was an improvement.

Sue
sue@eclipse.co.uk

[issy]

Shoing with long heels on the shoe is encouraging long heels on the hoof, isnt it?.

[Shiny McShine]

I looked at the Cytek site but I still don't really understand what the shoes are. What are they made of? The picture showing the Cytek shoeing looked to me just like a shoe placed further back on the foot or is this just my ignorance? I am interested to actually know what the go is with them.

I thought that the long toe, short heel was just a symptom of incorrect farriery anyway? Can't it be prevented from the start without using any special system?

Obviously I don't really know anything about the subject but I am curious. Any answers?

[ros]

Sue - they lose the odd one but in general they seem to keep them on (not sure how :rolleyes: )

issy - lack of heel support tends to contract the heels, make them grow in under the foot rather than at a more upright angle. (Coupled with a long toe the foot doesn't have much option.)

Shiny - I thought the picture of the "normal" foot on the Cytek site was very exaggerated. It was almost as though they'd found a horse with a very overgrown foot and shod it afresh to the untrimmed foot. I suppose they needed to make their point, but I'd be very worried if MY horse looked like that after a visit from the farrier!

[Sue Carnell]

My mare had terrible feet when I got her. I had a fabulous guy trimming and sorting her feet for me, but sadly he committed suicide and I had to find another. When she was first shod, by the new farrier who was recommended to me, she was shod and trimmed very badly and I had to get another farrier and get the shoes taken off again the next day. I got the farriers I mentioned to do her and the improvement was wonderful. She didn't lose them either.

However, when I first had my gelding shod, he couldn't keep these shoes on. The longest was a fortnight and when they tried to charge me 11 quid to put back on a shoe he lost after only 2 days, I realised it wasn't for him and found another farrier. The farriers told me it was my horse's feet that was the problem, but as they were the ones who had tended his feet from when he was 12 months old and had told me he had good feet, I wasn't too impressed. It seems that this shoeing works ok for some horses, but not others. My gelding is much shorter coupled than my mare was, so maybe that had something to do with it. That and perhaps the ground surface they're walking on. The land my mare was on, was a lot less muddy than where my gelding was. Since then I've met a lot of people who have had problems with this kind of shoeing, though some are still sticking with it.

Sue
sue@eclipse.co.uk

[Kerry's Partner]

Sorry to reduce the quality of the thread but "natural Alpha" - I'm sorry but I had to reduce the tone and "giggle". Well of course you are. Kerry and I wouldn't benefit at all if you were any other way.

Happy New Year.

Sandra

[Kerry's Partner]

btw we (either of us don't think we're second best) we just need to be nurtured to become Alpha beings ourselves. SO does this mean what I (the ignorant) hope that Alpha means: the ability to "control" (in the very very most nicest sense) yet nurture to bring out the best in the followers (equine and human)? Because if Alpha mares in the real sense don't do this then I am at a loss to understand in evlolutionary terms how the Alpha Mare contributes to the survival of the species.

[Susan C]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sue Carnell
[B]Hi Susan,

Suddenly realised who you are!! :D Hello again.

Yes it is me, the same who learned much from you visit, saddles how to fit and where to fit, the shoulders free. The Tin Tack in the saddle !!! never forgotten.

Jack was such a great aspiration to me, and I learned so much. Life is C*** at times learning the bad news I did recently.

But I have Flynn see below if it works I know I am slight tilting forward, but hands are planted to maintain same contact as I need Heather to stop the hands moving especially for young horse.


I teach my farrier, so he does as he's told, he wouldn't dream of raising his voice, let alone a hand to either of my horses and if I wanted Cyteks he'd do the course and I'd get them! (natural alpha you see)
If only they were all like that, but sadly they arnt and most wont say a word for fear of losing hwat they beleive is great.

:D My horses are never naughty either, I don't believe in it (see other threads). <g>
Nether do I, but we have been teaching a horse manners and like kids they test the goal posts,they then learn where they are.
Mark has been brill in that respect and his handling and teaching the horse with horse behaviour worked in 10 mins, Flynn was putty in his hands. I learned a lot and use it when I hit any hint of Oh I dont think I want to do that..


I prefer short toes, which are able to be shorter by the use of quarter, rather than toe clips. I don't particularly like toe clips from my research. I also find that horses who are conventionally shod appear to move more freely if they have quarter clips, short toes and more heel.

You are so near to them..

Cyteks are too extreme for me
I dont think so.

and my horses spend most of their time barefoot anyway, so it's a bit moot for me really.

It is, what a great owner you are, barefoot if it works is the Best, Cytek would agree, we wanted Flynn to stay and it was Marks idea to try, but the footprint Flynn had made this difficult, he had little trim and not good ones at that.
Perhaps when he returns to work, he will cope this time barefoot at back as he has had the correct trim to give the correct balance.


I did originally try rubber horseshoes too, as I wasn't too keen on the concussion thing.

Dont do concussion, dont do trot on roads except to get out of way of motorist. being the nice person I am.

My horse floated beautifully across grass in his rubber shoes (bounce, bounce), but seemed to stub on the roads and the shoes wore out on the side next to his hoof rather too quickly, so I dumped them too. I wasn't too keen on the nicknames I acquired from using 'rubbers' either. :D

Very Funny!!! cant imagine what they called you.


I've already posted my particular experience of Cyteked horses and it has nothing to do with the local Cytek shoer crashing his van into the back of my car at the roundabout neither. ;)
Oh yes I remember.. but up here I am sure with what you saw each horse be like with them .. the proof is them speaking for them selves.


I'm sorry Susan, but I'm not convinced.

I Never say I give up!
, as you know Sue life is about change and if the change is improvement it is good.

I would also say that Heather accepting me proves she's the one with an open mind and not the other way around. :D
I am still not convinced..

But friends we are!!!

hope the picture attaches

[Susan C]

Try this one..

[Susan C]

the stride is 2 days after Cytek.
, he never did this before it was up and short and choppy.
This was just trotting around in warm up arena at his 1st S/J show.

I need to get more now his bit acceptance is so improved as well.

[Sue Carnell]

The main problem I have with Cytek (and natural balance), is I've only ever seen horses improve with Cyteks if their previous conventional shoeing wasn't very good.

So far, every horse I've seen improving after being shod in Cyteks had what I would call poor previous shoeing. I have seen horses improve after the Cyteks have been taken off and good conventional shoeing applied though.

As just one example, I have seen a horse who was shod badly and having hoof problems, so he was put in Cyteks. He did improve on how he was going and on his hoof quality. However, the improvement wasn't good enough and he started to build the unusual muscle on his shoulders. He was taken back out of the Cyteks and he was shod conventionally, but well this time, with careful attention to detail and angles. He improved again, his medium trot became much more expressive and he lost the unusual shoulder muscle.

So for me Susan, I still say, the jury's still out.

Until it's proven that Cytek shoeing is better than the best conventional shoeing, I'll have to go with the best conventional shoeing if I have shoes on my horse and I can't recommend Cyteks to anyone else. The one good thing I think about Cyteks is that there is some kind of consistency to them, the farrier doesn't need to use much of his own judgement, especially if the horse is sound. Whereas for conventional shoeing to be any good, it has to be individually tailored and the farrier has to really know what he's doing.

Sue
sue@eclipse.co.uk

[Lindi]

Sue, is Cytek anything to do with natural balance shoeing or is that something different. Just curious

[Susan C]

Originally posted by Lindi
Sue, is Cytek anything to do with natural balance shoeing or is that something different. Just curious

Basically NO.

it is a similar shape shoe. They use a point of breakover similar.
The main difference is the shoe is open to be changed by the farrier ie heated and changed.
Cytek shoes are not. Or should not be, that has terrible consequences.

Also you do not need training to apply NB shoes other then being a reg farrier, where only Cytek trained guys can fit Cytek, all of course have been registered Farriers.

The shoe is not the same composition, and also does not have the small studs inplace.

It is a start to the idea of Cytek provided the farrier appreciates the breakover principle.

My farrer who I presently have, does all shoeing, he tried NB to try and sort the problems he saw conventionial shoeing creating. Still it did not address the issues.
It was only Cytek that did. he still fits conventional shoes to clients who do not want to change because he still has bills to pay, and can not afford to say no to the money, they will just go elsewhere.
My farrier who has had the car crash, will only fit Cytek he can not go back to convention. Financially it cost him for a while.

So I get all points of view from 2 farriers who can see the whole picture and all sorts of horses. Some very bad when they changed, some with what appeared no problems, Like Spot, the paler grey in the picture with my daughter on board. We did not expect to see such a change. 1 friend was a client of Mark who only does Cytek, and when he changed, she chose to beleive in his new learning and all of hers went over straight away. She has a total of 7. All different types and all do something, either Team chase, hunt, WH, ODE & 3DE, dressage and have some have been to HOY. All have only shoes on fronts no backs, all do road work. One was sold and new owner chose to not keep to Cytek months later it was lame seriously and according to vet it was navigular, she had the horse back, it went back into Cytek never lame again, has since gone onto win.

I personally have not seen what Sue has, a horse not changed for the better, or one returned to conventional shoes.

What I find so puzzleing is why Not .
30 horses I have contact with on Cytek all improving all from differing areas, doing differing areas of equine sports, differing ages, differing types/breeds, differing farriers.

I have to ask how long were they in Cytek before returning. Was enough time given to see a true picture, this of course I cant tell.

Of course was the Cytek guy appling them correct, that can always be an option not totally controlled.

Sue did say she knew a Cytek farrier who even as a conventional farrier was not good. Bad farriers are like anyone in any job or skill.

It can blot the copy book.

[Wally]

I have a problem with Cytek inasmuch as they will not even send us 1 shoe to look at unless we have been on their course and spent money with them... what are they trying to hide? cynical old bag that I am.

The lass who is teaching me has looked at pictures of them and can see little difference really as the old fashioned Welsh Cob weighted shoe. She taught me to make them in about an hour. But Cyteks are cheaper than hand made shoes I admit.

I agree with Sue Carnell that a shorter toe and a longer heel, almost leaning towards a boxy foot is far preferable to a longer toe and a flatter heel.

The branches of the shoe need to overlap and cover the heels to support them, okay some folk think this leads to over reaching the shoe off, but collapsed heels are a much, much bigger problem to solve and it takes ages.

I have been taught to "safe" the toes of the shoes of some horses, depending upon thier action to aid break over, rolled toes and quarter clips have a similar effect.

Until Cytek send us a shoe to look at I need convincing that they are not selling me toe weighted shoes! made with a machine. If I want to alter my horses gait to that degree I'd rather make it myself.

[Heather]

Thanks for that Wally- as a farrier and also a qualifed saddler, not to mention excellent teacher!-you are a very welcome source of info on topics that we sometimes have to judge for ourselves without having the actual hands on experience that you have had.

I probably have only heard about the Cytek success stories. I guess that like so many things, 'one man's meat is another man's poison', and this may also apply to showing too-

Heather