Dancing with Horses (discussion)

[anuvb]

After recieving a couple of recommendations from NewRider users (including Heather - I think will have to go back and check! :) ), I managed to get a copy of Dancing With Horses by Klaus Ferdinand Kempfling through the well known web-based book supplier and it arrived last night. I haven't been able to put it down since it arrived and am now half way through it after staying up half the night reading and absorbing the beautiful pictures). I was wondering what other people who had read the book thought of it.

At the start I have to say that I found it a bit "flowery", some of it is common sense, other bits seem very similar to other training methods and like most things I have come across bits which I could take it or leave it. Still, it makes for interesting reading nonetheless.

How do other people feel? Have you managed to put anything he has suggested into practice? If so how easy it is to get a response? How easy is it to adapt his techniques into the average riding situation? For example, if you are on a livery yard obviously you can't just create a picaredo without asking others first. I can imagine that because he isn't a "traditional" rider per se that he probably has got a few people rattled in the past. Without being controversial has anyone thought he was talking a whole load of twaddle?

Having done a bit of a search through old threads there were quite a few posts last November mentioning the book and that most people were reading it at the time or planning to read it - and I just wondered if you had all managed to finish it yet!

Wally - in the previous thread you said you didn't like his video (sorry to put you on the spot I'm just curious about your opinion. I find the book really interesting but really want to know whether it is applicable to me) - has anyone seen the video and read the book how do they compare? I'm finding the most frustrating thing about reading a book like this is that you can't actually visualise every signal and response the horse is giving and therefore it is difficult to make a really accurate judgement on the methodology behind his training. No author will put in a picture that gives a negative slant to the point he/she is trying to make and so it is difficult to know whether or not I can make an objective opinion about his principles just based on the info in the book.

Also, what do the more traditional riders who ride at high level dressage think?

Thanks for any responses in advance - I'd be really interested in your opinions - good or bad!

Dawn

[KarinUS]

I read the book and really liked it very well. I think it gave me some very good ideas to think about.
I was surprised that some people found offense with the book. Unfortunately I have never seen the video.

[Tootsie4U]

I have actually just had this book recommended to me. Im replying to bring it up to the front in "New threads" so maybe it will get some more attention. I would also like to know what people think.

:cool:

[Paul Cairns]

Hi all

I have not read the book but I have seen the video. Now let me start buy saying that the riding done on the video is AMAZING, no bridle no, saddle and just the most brilliant stalion.

Having said that this video is to flowery (sp) for me, I was waiting for the bloke to produce a splif half way through the video.

If you want to see some great riding with no explantion at all,buy it,but if you want some great riding and everything explained simply (I won't argue with anyone who says I need everthing explained simply) wait for Heather's second video

P.S. Hurry up Heather,get your skates on, get your video out, I know you have nothing better to do!



;)

[Kerry's Partner]

Well if I would second that - in the nicest possible way. I'm not at all sure 'though Paul that Heather has nothing "better" to do - it's just that from our point of view there's nothing more important for her to do but that's just my opinion and a very selfish one at that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[intouch]

I think you would be disappointed if you expect the video to demonstrate 'how to do it' but in its own right it is a pleasure to watch.

[Kerry's Partner]

I disagree I'm sorry. I'm sure I would be able to "see" how to do it even better!!! I have watched Heather's first video endless times and I "see" something different each time. I found the video to be absolutely "priceless" in so many different ways and I would not at all expect the second one to be anything other than providing more than the first.

[intouch]

think we might have a crossed wire here, Kerry's Partner, I was replying to the original post. I've no doubt Heather's next video will be as valuable as her first.

[Kerry's Partner]

Thanks, yes I can see that wires were crossed.

Sandra

[cvb]

I would agree with intouch about the KFH video. I was hoping it will illustrate some of the work in the book but it doesn't really. Plus they have had to translate everything from his german (I guess?) and the voice over had the unfortunate effect of sending me to sleep ! :eek:

I have tried out some of the stuff in the book. My last stall we had a round pen, and now we have an indoor school which is sometimes empty so I can loose school. It would be tough to do it loose the first time in a big indoor school though !

I can get Fi to change rein across the circle using KFH's approach. We can also change the rein by turning outwards using the more conventional way of just blocking her. I have also done the rein change working on a line and she is better one way (but she has a stiff side, like most horses).

[anuvb]

Thanks Cvb, intouch and Paul for your responses - they were very useful. And I probably won't rush out and buy the video though I may try and borrow a copy if I can find someone who has it.

KarinUS - I'm enjoying it as well and so far have not really found anything too controversial. He seems to state all the way through that these are his observations and whilst he "suggests" things he doesn't seem to ram it down your throat that this is the only way, plus it is a horse-orientated approach but includes a human element which I find quite refreshing.

I like the idea of being able to give clear consistent signals to a horse so it knows exactly what I mean both on it's back and from the ground. After all, when I train my dog the principles are not that dissimilar and do not involve aggression but constant, clear reinforcement of commands etc. :) It's amazing though how inconsistent I can be when I deal with a horse from the ground (not lungeing but grooming etc) and whilst it probably sounds a bit silly I can only assume that when I was a child we went to dog-training classes with our dogs and I was taught right from the word go that I had to be consistent. However, most riding schools in the UK teach you to ride, untack etc but don't really teach you how to treat or discipline a horse appropriately - it's more of a case of suck it and see. I don't think I have developed the skills as a child that I need and perhaps have to think more about what I am doing around a horse at all times and go back to basics with the handling thing.

I wasn't really expecting the video to show me how to do it- but to give me the opportunity to see how the horses actually reacted to the KFH approach. You can pick up a lot of little nuances of how the horse is interested/disinsterested etc which I don't expect still pictures in a book to give me. May be it's me - but I find it quite difficult to translate descriptions of movement or changes in response to instruction into actual images in my head and was hoping that the video might consolidate some of the things I was reading.

Cvb - I did wonder about the large school thing. Shame really, I would at least like to have a try to see if some of the ideas would work. Having given some of the ideas a go - do you think it would be possible to try adapting some of the ideas into the limits and confines of my current yard or do you think it would be too difficult to try and confuse a horse more?

Whoops - this has ended up being a bit long - sorry!

[lisae]

I have this book and tried some of the leading shown, on our two year old, with good result . Then hired a trainer to come out last summer to help train him to drive and she was just too insistent that this was dangerous being out ahead of him, to get back by his shoulder and closer to him. Personally, I liked having that space, if he surged or shied he wasn't close enough to run me over!

As mentioned, it's impossible to tell from a book just what is going on. But KFH looks quite dramatic, doesn't he!

I'd get a Heather video over his in a heartbeat.

[cvb]

anuvb - I think there are things you can do, even in a big school. Its just easier to do it in a smaller space at the beginning.

In the book he uses tape to make a smaller space. I think you could do this quite easily. Put a jump stand either side by E and B, then use tape between them. Electric fence tape might be too strong. We use plastic tape for loose jumping at our yard and it seems to work well. Its brightly coloured so the horses see it, but will break easily and can be knotted back together easily too.

Not sure where you could get it from - a builders merchants perhaps ?

I also think you can do in on a long line like the natural horsemanship lines (e.g. a 12ft line). But it will be a bit more confusing as the horse will not focus purely on the body language.

My mare does work in the while school, but I know (and she knows) that its because she wants to. If I had to drive her and control her more it would be really tough cos she is so quick. But she does lovely figure 8's around me, and circles around me. I just have to watch as there is one rein she like to avoid ! Its more playtime than anything else, but helps us keep our hand in a bit at working loose. Been thinking I might expand it a bit to see if she will play with a ball at all, but not sure how to introduce it....

[Joy Esau]

I have to admit I loved the book and started working on some of the ideas. And I did see a big improvement in my communication with my mare (although she is very genuine anyway). Using his methods I really began to fine-tune my body language but unfortunately (working full time etc!) I really lacked time to continue the work and do everything else I want to do. I found I needed to train myself to move correctly and unless I practiced, old habits returned! Some of what I gained has now been lost through lack of effort, concentration and practice on my part. I would have loved to progress to trying out some of the ideas under the saddle. Some of his ideas have however stayed with me and I would recommend the book to anyone.

I watched the video as well and while this was useful I don’t think it was as good as the book (in fact having watched it, it is not something I wish to keep referencing so if someone makes me an offer I could be persuaded to part with it!).

I would be extremely interested if anyone has continued the ground work to the saddle and what they thought. I am afraid I only scratched the surface…


Joy