Handling horses from the ground

[mojo]

I got knocked over by a horse last year and hurt myself and ever since have been wary when leading or working around a horse in the stable. Yesterday I schooled my friends horse in the field. All went well and she was an angel until I put her back in the stable. I lead her in wearing her bridle and her feed was in the stable waiting for her (I didnt notice this at the time, as my friend had left the feed there). She started playing up pawing the ground and trying to stick her head in the bucket, whilst I was trying to get her bridle off. I told her off, gave her a slap on the neck and managed to get it off but then she barged forward unexpectedly to stick her head over the door whilst I was in front of it and could have squashed me. She is a bit off a problem horse(napping,etc) and her stable manners are certainly unacceptable. Although outside of the stable she is usually really well behaved when she is lead, groomed, tacked up etc. What do other people do if thier horses play up in this way. Also on my lesson the other day. I was leading my designated horse 16'3 real bigboy, into the arena and he shied at something (not badly) as we came into the arena. I held onto him and reassured him and he was fine. He has perfect manners. But I find this kind of thing very nerveracking. I am always imagining I am going to be run over. I know all about how to lead. Have done a course in stable management and read all the text books but this never prepares you for handling a naughty or spooked horse. Does anyone else feel like this? I came home very depressed the other day. and felt totally incompetent!!

[western]

wow thats bad . horses are very large animals and very unpredictible. even when you think that they are angels. i think that the person should have let you put feed in the bucket when you were done. my horse somedays he is preety good and somedays he is spooky. dose the horse get sometime in the pasture? maybe thats the problem. some horses like mine dont like to be stabled all day even in the wintertime. if he is stabled all day he has lots of energy and he becomes spooky at the sightist things. i always like to have a horse at least put out to the pasture and so then if they want to run , roll , or other things like buck and play then he can do it then and not by me.

[mojo]

Hi Western!
Yes she does get turned out every day so really she has no excuse to play up in that way. I used to work at a riding school where the horses hardly ever got turn out and they were all (except one)impecably behaved in the stable. Do you think its just a case that she's never been taught manners. My friend has not had her long.

[virtuallyhorses]

You're in an unfortunate position if you are dealing with other people's horses - even if you do everything right they are still going to have the manners that are acceptable to the owner or main carer...

I always have to bite my tongue when I watch other people feeding their horses - so many 'encourage' bad behaviour by giving their horses food as soon as they start pawing, barging, laying back their ears ... and then wonder why the horse is a snot - gee, you've just rewarded them, the horse thinks its doing the right thing :( If they only fed when the horse is calm or better yet backed-up the horse prior to receiving its food bowl a lot of problems would be solved.

Like most things with horses, its all about preparation, you sound like you have prepared yourself as well as you can but now its time to prepare the horses you work with. Work with them on the ground and train them for the behaviour you want when they are scared BEFORE they become scared - do basic lead\manners training. The more you do, the more consistent you are the better - then when you have a problem both you and the horse will be on the same page.

If my horse is scared or spooked on the lead I ignore him, at most I raise my hand to 'halt' him before he passes my shoulder (his no-go area is to be in front of my shoulder) - his fear is his problem, my ignoring him and the 'scary thing' is his lead of how I want him to behave, I have to be the calm in the centre of his fears but this hasn't happenned overnight - we practice these skills each and everytime I lead him to and from the paddock.

If you've already been bowled over once it'll be harder for you but it sounds like you are quite brave and wanting to find a good solution - have you tried getting a longer lead rope as a starter - try a 12ft lead rope. Then if you are leading and the horse is spooked, let him! stay still and calm yourself, don't get involved in his emotional fears, just stand calmly and let him be a prat with the safer 12ft lead giving you a safe space. He'll calm down much more quickly if he sees his leader is not scared and standing calmly. Try never to 'soothe' him if he's being a chicken, when you do this you are essentially saying 'good boy for being scared and jumping away' not exactly what you are trying to achieve. DO PRAISE anytime\every time he's calm instead

[mojo]

God I wish I had my own horse!! as you say, practice makes perfect. You are right when you are helping out with someone elses horse you have to try to work around there methods and any good or bad habits they might be reinforcing.
I must admit I am becoming reluctant to ride/handle this horse as I can only get to ride her once a week, also it isnt really helping my confidence much. Not that she is really bad or anything.I just dont feel I am experienced enough to handle a horse that is inexperienced in a lot of ways.
I went on a hack the other day and she took off in canter along the side of the road when a truck carrying pipes went past. It was only for a few strides and I managed to get her onto the verge and inside of the horse we were out with and pull her up, but I've only been riding 18 mnths and dont think I'm experienced enough to handle that kind of thing. That was only my third time hacking. I wont be hacking her out again! Its put me off!! Theres a fine line between brave and stupid I think. She also naps badly (I have been conversing about this a lot on another thread on here). Anyway that aside, I wish I could get over this fear on the ground thing! I only ever hear people talk about fears when riding and nobody else seems to be that concerned about manouevering a horse when on foot.Only me!
I know this all stems from being thrown in at the deepend when I had a job at a riding school. They would expect me to lead two horses at once sometimes and then there was the horse who knocked me over of course! Still think about that a lot!!
I think I am probably over dwelling on this incident, but it did terrify me!!

[Peace]

I only ever hear people talk about fears when riding and nobody else seems to be that concerned about manouevering a horse when on foot.Only me!

Oh, there's where you're wrong, mojo - there's at least two of us!:p And don't the horses pick up on it? There's a big old gelding at my barn that I have to use a stud chain with to avoid being towed to the barn (before anyone says anything, I would sooner set myself on fire than yank on it, I promise). I looked out the door the other day and he was following another girl, nose at her shoulder with no lead at all!! Aargh!

In my case, I got myself in over my head early on, and wound up in a few scary situations through my own inexperience. I *hate* that feeling of incompetence you mention, but I know it well!!!:(

I have my own horse now, and I've enlisted his help in getting me over this. But do you know some very gentle horses that you could work with, just to boost your confidence? I'd definitely avoid working with horses that I knew would just reinforce my fears.

I don't work with any horse I don't feel entirely comfortable with - it's only setting myself up to fail, because they'll pick up that I'm nervous, which will make them nervous, and I'll pick up on their nerves, and . . . well, you get the idea. Your basic train wreck waiting to happen.

One positive thing I've noticed about being nervous - it's really increased my powers of observation! I notice the tiniest little things that might be different about a given horse on a certain day. I bet you're pretty vigilant, too - try asking someone at your barn sometime if they've noticed thus-and-so about a particular horse. They'll be quite impressed at your sensitivity, and you can preen a bit!

Hang in there - you're certainly not alone! Please PM me if you'd like - but I bet when more people see this thread you'll be surprised how many other people share your concerns!

[mikka]

mojo, as Peace says, you're not alone. I've always been much more nervous of horses on the ground than under saddle, for some twisted reason, especially given the weighted odds. I hate doing feet on horses I don't know, for example, 'cause I just assume they're going to paste me (not from having ever been pasted, just a fear of it).

Today, my horse really barged as we left the arena - she was afraid of various farm equipment. I did as VirtuallyHorses notes and raised my hand to halt her. She followed my lead well and (by some miracle) agreed that I was the leader and followed me without trouble. In this case, I think it was a fluke, but it's a great lesson to learn and teach.

But, yes, having your own horse is a bonus. When you're working with others' horses, there's always that strange sense of hesitation.

[eml]

Hi Mojo I really don't think you should worry about this one horse...whats she like with her owner? I think part of the problem is because you are generally worried about handling from the ground the horses you lead pick this up and dont get confidence from you. Can you try to get some happy experiences with other friends quiet horses? I had a horrible horse.....no really he would rather have bitten or kicked then do anything cooperative although once you were on him he was magic.... and I got more and more scared of him and he got worse,not unsurprisingly .Someone recommended I think it was called PAX.. you put it on like perfume and the horse cant smell your fears. It certainly worked for me and enabled the horse and I to work together.

[Tootsie4U]

Its like this; IF YOU WORK WITH HORSES LONG ENOUGH, YOU ARE GONNA GET HURT. You just have to accept that and hope that it doesnt stop you from doing what you love!

Everyday, I handle some very naughty stud colts who have many of the tendencies you describe. The trick is learning the horse so that you know what they typically do and how they react to things.

Always be cautious. No matter how well you think you know a certain horse, dont get too comfortable. The horse can still spook and trample you. Dont ever lead your horse on a long line or walk in front of it. If you do, make sure your looking at the horse more than at the ground. If you are watching him, chances are you will be less likely to be taken off guard.

Some other tips, when you bridle/unbridle, dont stand in front of the horse. Stand beside it, facing the same direction the horse is facing. While grooming, always keep one hand on the horses' body so that you can feel him tense up or feel him go to kick at you. You can react faster that way. When you walk behind a horse (something you should never do if you do not know the horse) rest a hand on it and drag your hand with you across its back so it constantly knows where you are and so you do not startle it.

We teach our horses when they get turned out or brought in that it is human first, then horse. For example, when going through the doorway to the barn, the horse is taught to wait while the human goes through. This keeps the horse from slamming you into walls. Once inside, we turn the horse around before we release it off the lead. This keeps you from being in kicking range.

Hope this helps a bit. :)

[Peace]

Its like this; IF YOU WORK WITH HORSES LONG ENOUGH, YOU ARE GONNA GET HURT.

Oh, dear.:( I've just been sitting here thinking about that. I suppose I agree, in a sense. My barn owner has worked with horses for 45 years now, and while she's never been hurt *seriously*, she does turn up with the odd bruise or sprain now and then. Although she will always tell me how exactly she was exposed to that risk, and what she could have done to avoid it.

Of course, she works with 20+ head every day, some of whom are boarder's horses. She is particularly good with problem horses, also, so is probably exposed to more potential risk than most.

Those are good tips for minimizing risk. I would only add that, if I look *at* Quanah while leading him, he stops. I have to keep him sort of in the corner of my eye - I can still see what he's doing, but I don't direct my gaze right at him.

[janet hakeney]

Why not treat yourself to one of the Natural Horsemanship organisations groundwork clinic days?.Parelli do them and I'm sure Kelly Marks or others in the 'Monty' lot would too. I live near Ingela Sainsbury a Parelli *** star Instructor and I know she does them. Which part of the country/which country are you in?. Understanding what makes the horse tick on the ground is just as important....or even more, so than being able to ride it.

[virtuallyhorses]

ooh - just saw Mikka's post and need to clarify something - when I raise my hand to halt my horse - this isn't because its a universal signal recognised by horses - but again because this is something we've trained for.

Sorry if this has caused any confusion and made anyone think that you can stop any horse just by raising your hand (although it easy to teach since it is something that gains a horse's attention)

[sarahh]

i was trodden on by a new horse before christmas and i haven't ridden since. she often seemed agitated in the stable (lots and lots of head nodding) and to be honest i was a bit nervous as she was quite big. i got her out ok but queuing for the lesson was a nightmare, she wouldn't keep still, i was doing my best to be calm and talk to her and stay out of the way but i still got trodden on because her stride was longer than my arms. apparently she was excited because she was going into a lesson (i didn't feel very excited after that)

i think it is really nerve wracking getting horses that you don't know out of the stables, and even if you do know them sometimes they have an off day and decide they aren't coming out and then you can be a nervous wreck and the horse is still in the stable. i had one really embarassing time when i was due to ride the owner's husband's big big horse who just looked at me and backed up in the stable, dug his heels in and refused to move. the stable manager came along and told him to stop mucking about and he came out like a puppy. i don't mind getting ponies out for my daughter, but i do think the higher the animal the more off putting it is.

and i do know of horses who have decided to not stop when told and dragged their (fairly large) owners the length of the yard, i think this is v dangerous and yet people just seem to accept it.

[Tootsie4U]

Your safety is #1!

The next time you handle this horse, get a stud chain lead and put the chain over her nose (feed the chain through the two clips on her head collar/halter). This gives you more control. If her stride is bigger than yours you just tug a bit on the chain and she should slow down immediately.

Using a stud chain doesnt have to be cruel. Equine dentists and farriers even use this sensitive area on the horses' nose for control when its necessary. Being safe is more important, Im sure you agree.

[cvb]

mojo

it could be that this horse has never been taught manners - and you can do something about it. You need to be consistent and hopefully get the owner to join in too.

Start with the easier situations...

For example, if you are grooming and you want to get the horse to step back, ask with a little pressure on the nose or chest and say the word 'back'. Then praise when you get the right reaction. It will take a while for the horse to make the connection so don't get down if it takes some time ! You can also use voice commands when you pick out feet (you can use UP, I often do 'Next!' once I've done the first one...) It needs to be simple commands, with praise when they get it right, repeated many times.

"Over" to move over is another one to establish.

Once you start getting some basic commands set up, you can use them in more 'anxious' situations, for example when the horse gets it food. I want a horse to let me get the food in the manger before it dives for it. We've always taught our horses to step back from the door when we go in (there's that 'Back' command) and also when you put food in.

(Its tough where I am now as I am not there most of the time when she gets fed...)

Also I can thoroughly recommend observing at a Parelli clinic - its really good value for money. (Then you can decide whether to go with the horse or not).

[Tootsie4U]

One other tid bit in addition to cvb's suggestions...

When teaching horses voice commands, remember that "No" sounds like "whoa" to them. We added a "t" to the No command and made it "Not" - funny but it helps. :D

[tarkia]

You shouldn't of slapped the horse, this will just make her more pushy and she will want to get the better of you.
You should of just told her off like "no" or something.
You shouldn't really be in the position of handling other peoples horses especially if they are pushy horses with a novice. You should try and get some experience with horses and learn how to handle them.

[Tootsie4U]

Well Gee, I dont know if I totally agree with that. How do you get experience if not from situations like this?

Leading bombproof lil' old pony wont teach you much!!!

[Peace]

Leading bombproof lil' old pony wont teach you much!!!

But then, you don't want to start off with War Admiral either!:)

[mojo]

I think the key element to getting over my fears is as some of you have said,lots of time spent handling horses! and I am so glad that I am not the only one that worries about this.
I have been having some very positive experiences of late. I had a group lesson on Monday night and a private one on Tuesday, did so much cantering on Tuesday it was exhilarating!! Over the past few weeks I have really felt my riding coming on. I also talked with my instructor about some of my concerns. She is very petite and yet seems to handle horses with such ease. She gave me some tips and showed me how she would move a horse over in the stable. Mind you the horses at the college(this is where I ride) are always very calm in thier stables. I never really feel nervous with the college horses, except perhaps if they spook, which obviously happens occasionally, thats why I enjoy going there so much!
She suggested my friend advertise for an experienced rider to do a horseshare. My instructor knows the horse in question and describes her as very 'green' in spite of her age (11). Trouble is my friend has just started trying to lunge this horse and has asked me will I give her a hand as the horse has not been lunged much (if ever?). I want to help her, would love to gain the experience of lunging(have only ever lunged a horse once before) but wonder if I would be silly to do so with the way I am feeling at the moment. I should point out that she is not an overly silly horse, she is usually ok to handle on the yard and in the field where she is schooled (the stable is another matter), as she is very comfortable in her own environment. However when my friend tried to lunge her she apparently started galloping around in a circle and my friend had to let her go as she was scared she was going to do herself some damage(the horse that is).
Its as Tootsie4U says, how do you gain experience if you dont get out there and do it? Yet I am scared to go beyond my comfort zone. Will have to look into this 'Parelli' business, a few people have mentioned it to me now.

[Tootsie4U]

mojo - there is nothing wrong with staying in your comfort zone. However, it seems like you want to get better too. Each time, try just a little bit more than what your comfortable with (no war admiral yet, as peace says :D ) and before you know it, what you were frightened of today won't seem like a big deal tomorrow ;)

[Peace]

mojo - if you're interested in learning a little more about Parelli, go to Natural Horsemanship and click on my thread called Parelli Seven Games? I'd post the link if I could ever figure out how!:o

Anyway, several helpful people posted links there that describe the seven ground games.

As for helping your friend teach her horse to lunge - if I were in your position, I'd try to get someone more experienced to help at first.:)

[mikka]

Note to Viv: yes, the raised hand must be learned. My horse knows this signal.

At our school, all horses are taught to respond to hand/voice commands. We can, for instance, ask horses to halt with hand signal, and walk on using same. Common practice.

[DebO]

Horses are unpredictable as you know and if its your horse then you know him and know how to handle him, which helps.

For instance I have a 16.2 ID/TB if he's naughty and he is spooky I can more or less contain him on the spot. I have found that holding the rope with my hand at his shoulder so his head is kept down helps. He doesn't like it but it is difficult for him to go anywhere.

I have 2 big horses I bring in everyday for a Dr. Boy are they strong. 1 in particular is often naughty, galloping around, bucking and running towards me! With this one if I try and tell him off he deliberately turns round and bucks at me. I have found the best way to handle him is to wait, watching his body language all the time and making sure I am somewhere where I can get to safety if poss. I have to bring the other one in first who is nervous and insecure, I have to walk through the field with the nutter so I make sure I am not between the 2 of them! I have now decided to take the lunge line with me and a handful of hay, this seems to work.

We should all wear a riding hat and gloves. None of us do I bet. A friend of mine who works at a livery yard, had to take a horse from the stable and walk it to the field, she knew this horse very well. He went beserk and kicked her in the head and knocked her unconscious, she recovered and was lucky.

It happens to the best of us, I wonder how many have had broken toes, pulled tendons, bruises etc but we still carry on don't we. Must be mad the lot of us!

[jomills]

Sorry if anybody's said this.
If youw ork with horse or ride horses, one day you will come unstuck. I cam eunstuck literally going cross country and broke my leg, and it's so easy to have BIG confidenxce crisis!
A horse who is c*** being lead needs to learn to respect it's handler, especially as they get bigger and more flighty. For example, I have no problem leading down five 14.2ishes froma field at once becuase they're all fairly sane (don't bit my head off) but I wouldn't lead our 17hh and 16.3hh togethjer becuase they don't gel,a dn ar both a bit mad.
Strong ones whoudl be lead ina birdle with no reins or nosebnd, and a lead rope through the bit rings. Reaklly bad ones can improve with a chiffney but only if you know what your doing. If you ahven't got anything on, wrapping the leadrope round it's nose where the hesdollcar is acts as a sort of pressure halter and will get you to the yard!
Jo:)