Upset- What's going on!???

[KarinUS]

I am now completely convinced that it is me who makes DJ freak out when tied up.
Some of you might remember the problems I had with the cross-ties. If you don't here's my previouspost (http://www.newrider.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=16685&highlight=crossties) .
It started about ten days ago when I started him on cross-ties. Up until now he was fine with being tied to the rail.
Today the farrier was there. I was cleaning my tack while they were working on DJ and DJ was completely calm. Then I went to put his bell boots on and after boot number one he went up again (this time tied to the rail- NOT in cross-ties) so it must be me that is spooking him.
I am so upset. I've had him since May. I always talk to him to let him know where I am and I never EVER have done anything to hurt or scare him. He is a very smart horse and quick learner.

Up until now I thought we had a great trusting relationship. When he spooks I generally get a hold of his halter and pull him down. I am able to calm him rather quickly and then I just massage his ears rub his nose, etc. until he turns to butter and is completely relaxed. I don't give him any treats since I don't want to teach him that freaking out is what I want.

At this point I have only two explanations for his behavior.
1) I am doing something different from before and it rreally scares him
or 2) I have taught him that him throwing his head up when tied results in me giving him a massage... (but could he really learn that so quickly from a few incidents?)

What do you think is going on? What should I do differently? I know it is me! :( He was fine with the farrier!

[galadriel]

After a few times of getting really upset in cross-ties, Kat began to object to being tied at all--but not all the time. She'd be fine, she'd be fine, she'd be fine...then she'd go boom. I think she turned her head just right and felt the pull of the tie, and had a flashback or something. It got so I could not tie her to anything, and expect her to stay calm.

Other horses I've seen who have issues with tying were similar; would be okay for a while, then go boom. Unpredictable.

After I thought of it :) I haven't had a problem with tying her if I attach the tie to something stretchy--like a bungee cord held in place with a bit of twine. The twine'll break if she gets really upset, so she won't keep fighting it till either she or the rope breaks. If the bungee were to break and snap her in the face, I'd probably never be able to get near her with anything resembling a rope again! Anyway, with a less solid resistance she does a lot better being tied; it stretches when she pulls, and so she doesn't get really upset.

Did DJ zone out while the farrier was doing him, then look around when you were at his feet, and come to the end of his rope?

[Retty]

Hi Karin,
When I first bought Promise she broke 6 leadropes and one headcollar in the 1st week of owning her! It was a nightmare as I then couldn't relax with grooming or tacking up as she would just move around the stable too much! I was at my wits end as what to do and had some advice from a friends mum that worked, she said that may-be Promise had had a bad experience in the past that I knew nothing about, like maybe she was stung by a wasp or something. Anyway she suggested that when I tied her to give her a haynet so that she associated being tied with something nice, it was brilliant and worked within a few days, now I can tie her without hay and she just stands still and calm. I realise that it may be hard to cross tie with a haynet but maybe tie her to the rail with a haynet and go from there. Good luck and try to remain calm so she doesn't read any stress coming off from you. :)

[KarinUS]

After a few times of getting really upset in cross-ties, Kat began to object to being tied at all--but not all the time. She'd be fine, she'd be fine, she'd be fine...then she'd go boom. I think she turned her head just right and felt the pull of the tie, and had a flashback or something.

Yeah, I think that's probably it. Now he's kind of clued in to freaking out when he feels that pressure on the pole unexpectedly. I will make some easy-snap twine rings to keep on hand and will look into a stretchy thing... but like u say kind of scarey in case it snaps him...

Retty,

I've had DJ for 8 months. The bad thing that happened to him was two weeks ago he panicked in the cross-ties. Up until then he was always fine.

[KarinUS]

what do you think about this: Panic stretchy attachement (http://www.dressageextensions.com/ProductDetail.asp?KEY=2246)

You could even carry that further and go with the Stretchy Halter (http://www.dressageextensions.com/ProductDetail.asp?KEY=2273)

But I guess the smart way would be just to try the rope attachement...

[FreedomStar]

I think the panic stretchy attachment is a good idea.

[galadriel]

It says it can be used for no-pull tying, tho it doesn't say what it's made of or how strong it is--but if that's what it's designed for, then it would probably work :)

Actually I was thinking late last night, and remembered these:
http://www.silktree.com/p21.html

They look really useful for a nervous tyer.

There are other bungee products for tying too, some specifically designed for trailer ties and cross ties.
http://www.pbshorsehealth.com/cgi-local/SoftCart.exe/supplies/bungeecrosstrailertie.html?E+scstore

(I didn't go looking for the best price, just for a pic and description. No idea what a "good deal" on these would cost.)

[KarinUS]

Of course gadget person that I am I ordered the coil-tie as well as the bungee attachments.

I also had a long talk with my instructor/ barn manager today about the issue. I told her how I felt I had messed him up because of the cross-tie experience that set it all off.
She mentioned how actually DJ has shown a lot more headshy and territorial behavior as well as cribbing in the last two months.
At the beginning of winter DJ had lost a lot of weight. He's out on pasture 24/7 and has access to hay at all times but I guess he just preferred grass. So a couple of months ago we started adding oil to his feed and also doubled the grain to get some weight on him.
She thought sometimes doubling the grain like that will have an effect on behavior and I should practice with him being tied anyways since he needs to be able to be tied to the trailer when we start going to shows with him in the Fall...
So I tied him and he was okay... silly boy!

[galadriel]

(adding oil, doubling grain)

Oh, yikes, that'll do it :) When I was desperately trying to get weight on Kat, when I first got her, I had her on a 14% protein, 7% fat feed (and a lot of it). She was berserk half the time :) I finally moved her down to a 10% protein, 7% fat food; I think too much protein was going toward energy instead of weight gain.

I've now got her on about 1/3 rice bran, which is 12% p 12% f, and 2/3 the 10% p 7% f stuff--overall about 11% p and 9% f. She's much more relaxed than she's ever been. She needs a lot of feeding to keep weight on, but seems to do better when more of it is fat than protein. (I haven't yet found a 10% fat 7% protein feed ;) ) I haven't looked into it, but I think people've told me that oil is pretty much pure fat :) as far as feeding it to horses goes. So with oil AND doubling feed, you're creating dynamite ;)

I know you said he's ignoring hay, but I really prefer to feed more hay and less feed if I possibly can. What about looking into alfalfa pellets or cubes for adding to his feed? More bulk, less actual contents...

[Peace]

It amazes me the effect food can have on a horse's behavior. I'd only had Quanah a few weeks, when suddenly one day I asked for a turn and he snapped like a alligator at my foot!:p My instructor got on him the next day, and he tried to wipe her off on the side of the barn.:eek:

Turned out the problem was the feed store had mixed up her order - he'd jumped from 10% protein to 14% that week! Once back to his normal ration, the gator turned back into the little turtle I know and love.:)

Glad to hear he's doing better - and now you know *you* weren't the problem! I figured that couldn't possibly be it.:)

[virtuallyhorses]

Originally posted by KarinUS

At this point I have only two explanations for his behavior.
1) I am doing something different from before and it rreally scares him
or 2) I have taught him that him throwing his head up when tied results in me giving him a massage... (but could he really learn that so quickly from a few incidents?)

1) possibly - it doesn't sound like it but maybe you treat him more gingerly because of the prev incidents (understandably so I might add)

2) Yes,a definite possibility. Smart horses are very fast to associate - if he goes up - try to ignore him entirely - I know its hard and there's safety etc etc but if you can, look upon him as if he is the most boring horse in the world, his fears are his problem not yours. Don't speak to him afterwards until he is calm in case the 'soothing' tone is praise to him.

3) most likely - its nothing at all to do with you - there's some noise or spooky thing that you're not even spotting that's setting him off - see number two - ignore him, that's his problem

Mine used to freak out at all sorts of things - my fav, is when he'd brush against a bush or tree and the noise would scare him - he'd jump all over the place - I totally blanked him - he'd get a neutral 'oh p-l-e-a-s-e' and a command to walk on (or totally ignored if he spooked in the same direction anyway), if the command wasn't followed then we'd go into std training mode - as if the spook hadn't occured . He now purposely brushes himself under every overhanging bush - its quite amusing, he gets a giggle and a 'good boy' for that (and a nice back rub from the bush) and it only took one of those 'good boys' for him to learn that NOT being scared of the rustly things was good!

[Shiny McShine]

My first thoughts when reading your post were that he was probably getting too much grain - thus just being excitable. It seems as though that may have plenty to do with it.

You say when he goes up you grab his halter and pull him down. I have always been taught that the worst thing you can do when a horse is pulling away or rearing is to pull against him. Perhaps your reaction to him is making matters worse. It would probably be better to tie him up with a quick release knot and instead of pulling against him when he has a panic just slip the knot until he calms down.

Hopefully you have the situation sorted out anyway, it sounds like the feed is probably contributing to this problem more than anything. Good luck.

[KarinUS]

Shiny,
the reason why the pulling him down by hand has worked well in calming him down is that my arm has some give so to speak. I am the bungee... :D
Surely if he actually were to rear or anything I would resort to quickly untying him, but at this time my instructor thought immediately untying him would just teach him that sitting back results in him getting rid of the restraint. When I hold his halter and talk to him he actually settles down right away, so it seems to be the right thing for us at this time.
If the situation should be worse I definitely wouldn't dare set my muscle strength against his. My trainer thinks along the lines of Viv's thoughts: to behave as if it wasn't a big deal and not encourage it in any way.
I'll ask her if she would think reducing his grain and feeding a Hard Keeper Supplement (http://www.vita-flex.com/hardkeeper.htm) instead would make him be more himself again...
Galadriel, he eats the hay in the pasture. I see him munch all the time. I guess the summer grass just has more nutrients?

So we will see...

[galadriel]

Originally posted by KarinUS
Galadriel, he eats the hay in the pasture. I see him munch all the time. I guess the summer grass just has more nutrients?

Ah, I thought you meant he was ignoring the hay in favor of the (now none or probably dried) grass. Sorry :)

Grass definitely has more to it than hay; if you've read the various discussions here on haylege vs hay, they mention that because haylege is not allowed to dry fully and become hay, it has much more "content" to it. (By the way, I'm talking about protein, sugar, fat type content. Different hays have different nutrient/mineral contents, and I don't want to try to guess on that here--plus it's not relevant :) )

There are hays that are rich, like alfalfa, but most hays are pretty much empty fiber. (especially hay rolls, tho you didn't say if he's got rolls or bales out there) Feeding a large amount of fairly empty grass hay *can* help build up weight, but only if, say, the horse is stalled overnight & doesn't have anything else to do but munch hay :) Otherwise you need more than hay to build weight.

It is such a pain to get weight back on a TB who's lost some--but you should be able to maintain it well once he's built back up (in my experience). I'm now feeding 1/3 of what I was when trying to put weight on, and my horses are still slightly gaining weight. (Trying to convince myself to cut them down further, but I feel like I'd be starving them ;) Silly me. Will do it before thy turn into sausages.)

If DJ's back up to weight now, then you can probably cut way back on his feed and not have to worry about him losing condition. Do it gradually (say, half a scoop every 2 weeks); watch to make sure he isn't losing weight. If he's still underweight, then what he's getting probably isn't helping anyway and a weight-builder type supplement would probably help more.

I knew an Arab who looked horribly skinny, but I fed her 3x as much as she really needed because her owner insisted. It all went straight to energy; this horse was a complete spaz all of the time, and a total wench to the other mares. Just feeding her *food* wasn't going to make her gain weight; she needed to be working to build muscle. I know DJ doesn't lack for work ;) but the principle still applies--some horses need something different from regular food to gain weight, because extra food just goes straight to energy.

And of course, now you know for next year, when the grass starts to fade, that DJ needs some more stuff or he'll drop in weight again :) (I really probably would just go with some alfalfa pellets in his feed.)

[galadriel]

Originally posted by KarinUS
the reason why the pulling him down by hand has worked well in calming him down is that my arm has some give so to speak. I am the bungee... :D

By the way, that's exactly what I do with Kat.

[KarinUS]

Well, I supplied the barn manager with some Weight Builder supplement so she can start to cut back on his double dose of grain. He hasn't gained any more weight with his double ration so I would be worried to just cut it back without some kind of replacement.
The bales out in the field are the large round bales (is that what you call hay rolls?), so I guess that's the less nutritious stuff!?

Oh I love him so much. He's such a sweet boy- even high on grain! I just tied him to the rail today and he only cribbed twice and didn't freak at all and other then that just enjoyed the rub down. Afterwards I sat down to read the Horse Gazette in the paddock and he kept checking in to see if there was anything interesting in the paper. Nothing like a big horse nose right in your face...
He seemed very content and I am just glad I can stop feeling so guilty...

[virtuallyhorses]

Just FYI the quality of the hay is not determined by the method of baling but by the quality of the grass and the time\method of cutting. (and later the method of storage)

Large round bales are very popular with large farms because it cuts down handling and feeding times - ie it is pretty much a one-man show, whereas traditional baling requires some man-handling of the bales into storage and at feed-out time

[galadriel]

My experience, however, is that the higher-quality hays are much more expensive, and that round bales of those hays are not available--probably due to the incredible amount it would cost :) This is definitely something that could vary by region. Here you can get bermuda grass and fescue hay in round bales, neither of which has much "content" to it.

So glad you're feeling less guilty. What a wonderful sense relief is :)

[AmandaW]

Hi,

I always found that adding plain old veg oil from the supermarket a good way to keep weight on poor doers. Cheaper than a supplement and easier on the digestion than feeding extra concentrates to make up the energy requirement. Added advantage is that because fat is a slow release energy source it is more likely to keep weight on than fizz a horse up. I always think of the effect of too much sugar on my little 4-year old boy - wow! After Sunday lunch though he will be curled up on the sofa snoozing!! Feeding more often can help too, ie. split his ration into 3 or 4 rather than just breakfast and tea.

Haylage is more nutritious because it is generally cut earlier before the grass has consumed energy in the production of flowers. Silage is cut even earlier. What species of grasses make up the sward also affect the content of the hay or haylage. You can buy haylage with just Timothy for good doers. Poor doers and competition horses are probably better on rye grass hay and haylage. Haylage from meadow sward (good mix of all sorts) is probably what most of us end up using and will have the best mix of nutrients, depending of course on the quality of the soil in the first place and the lack of poisonous plants.

Amanda