overbitted and pelhams

[Janette]

Somebody has told me that they think Star is 'overbitted'. She wears a mullen mouth stainless steel pelham, with the 2 reins on. I thought this was a mild bit?
This person has ridden Star, and refuses to use the curb rein because it is too 'harsh'.
Please, somebody, confirm what I have learned from Heather.

[mikka]

Janette, I'm sorry that I can't help you and don't want to waste your time, but I would like to say that I've brought up the question of Pelhams with three instructors at two different establishments (one is a nationally placed dressage competitor) and they were all adamently against using them - they felt that Pelhams were too harsh (cheating, to use one's words) and shouldn't be used except in unusual circumstances.

I trust Heather's instincts about horses and have been combing the archives to learn more about this matter. I'm looking forward to learning how others respond to your question. "I believe, please help my disbelief" might sum up my feelings at the moment.

[Bebe]

My instructor doesn't think pelhams are harsh bits as long as they're used with 2 reins and tact on the part of the rider. She isn't a huge fan of them herself but I went through my bitting saga (tried allsorts) with her overseeing it and she fully admits that the only bit she's ever seen Bebe go well in is her pelham, so that is what we use. She does say that there are a large number of horses that do go well in them and that their reputation is based more on bad riding than on the bits themselves. She also says that there are quite a few classical instructors (I guess she would include Heather in there) that advocate the use of a pelham.

I use the curb rein maybe 2-3 times in a whole ride although I keep a light contact on it at all times. I can ride my mare off the snaffle rein without having the curb rein attached and she goes very well, it seems to be the cheekpieces that make the difference for her.

I would tell the person that made this comment that Star is your horse and you will choose the bit that s/he goes in. If they don't want to use the curb rein they ought to be adept enough with two reins not to use it unless they need it anyway.

Also, what is more harsh - a bit that is strong but only applies pressure to the tongue, bars of the mouth and lips or a bit that is the same strength but distributes the pressure via the mouth, curb groove and poll? Think about it, a lot of pressure on one spot hurts like hell but if you spread the pressure over a larger area it actually feels much milder.

You want to try telling Bebe that the pelham is a harsh bit when we're out on a hack. If she's going, she's going and the pelham does very little to stop her. I bet if I put her in one of the fashionable gag bits she'd stop in a second (I think gags are awful and are far more frequently misused than the pelham).

[AmandaW]

Bebe, why are Dutch Gags thought of as severe? Surely they have a very similar action to a pelham ridden without a curb chain? In reality the three ring snaffle has no 'gag' action at all.

I rode my girl in a happy mouth straight bar (looked more mullen to me) Dutch gag with 2 reins and she was lovely and light. I was going to try her in a happy mouth pelham as she seemed quite resistant sometimes. However as soon as her new Dave Johnson fitted saddle arrived this all resolved.

Surely it's down to a combination of how a bit is used and each horse's mouth conformation that would determine the severity of a bit. Not any one particular pattern (within reason, there are some pretty fearsome contraptions out there!!).

I think the problem really boils down to the fact that in the most part the bit is regarded as the brakes rather than a communication tool! Let's face it there are occasions when brakes are required, but hopefully they are more rare!!

[cvb]

I think the basic idea that we are used to applying is that the more areas you apply pressure on, and the stronger/quicker that pressure is applied, the more harsh the bit is.

This principle seems to be getting questioned a lot in recent years !

e.g. recent research showed that the amount of space in a horses mouth was a lot smaller than previously thought.

So wouldn't that make fat bits much harsher than previously thought ?!

I think certain bits have the potential to be harsh in the wrong hands, because of the number of ways they can apply pressure. And made worse with tack combined e.g. as my second pony had when I bought him: eggbutt gag with a drop noseband and a running martingale. (So the gag keeps his head up, the martingale keeps it down, and the drop stops him objecting (and breathing !) :eek: ).

I would agree with others on this post - that a horse that is happy and accepting in a "harsh" bit will actually be in a less harsh situation then if he is fighting and unhappy in a 'mild' bit.

By the way AmandaW, don't forget that not all dutch gags are straight mouthpieces - some are snaffles which will add a nutcracker action to gag/pelham action. Plus a lot of people only ride them on a single rein. And they tend to be used on 'forward going' horses. Which probably explains the reputation.

[Esther.D]

I think the main problem with gags is when they used roughly and/or with only one rein on the curb setting. I don't have a problem with pelhams, especially when used with 2 reins...as a driver we almost always use variations on the pelham (Liverpool bits, elbow bits etc) the only snaffle 'officially' used by drivers is the Wilson snaffle. The idea is not to cheat but to gain lighter control - especially with (eg) a team of big horses - even on a ordinary fairly light contact a team is very heavy to hold. I would always choose a correctly used pelham over an incorrectly used snaffle (particularly a jointed one) - that is just my opinion and I know it is a very controversial issue. If you want to see my objection to jointed snaffles in heavy hands - try using a jointed snaffle as a handle to pick up a bucket, it really hurts when the nutcracker action cuts into your hand.....

Just use whatever suits your horse, if you use any conventional bit sensibly and sensitively and find one that suits you and the horse then it should be fine.

[AmandaW]

I would agree with others on this post - that a horse that is happy and accepting in a "harsh" bit will actually be in a less harsh situation then if he is fighting and unhappy in a 'mild' bit.

Totally agree:D

don't forget that not all dutch gags are straight mouthpieces - some are snaffles which will add a nutcracker action to gag/pelham action.Plus a lot of people only ride them on a single rein. And they tend to be used on 'forward going' horses. Which probably explains the reputation.

All this goes for the pelham too! Though I still don't understand where the gag action comes from when using the dutch gag or three ring snaffle or bubble bit or whatever it is called? It seems to me to have much more of an action akin to a hanging cheek snaffle rather than the lifting of an English style gag??

[Sue Watson]

I think part of the poor and misunderstood reputation of the pelham is due to the misuse of the curb chain. If you stand your horse still and gently ease on the curb rein then feel under the head piece there will some pressure. If you do the same and feel under the curb chain the feeling of pressure will vary enormously depending upon what type of curb chain/elastic you are using. If the chain is quite tight and the curb rein is used strongly there will be a tremendous squeezing of the jaw between the mouthpiece and the inflexible chain. I think the elastic curb is the key to successful use of the pelham. The particular piece of elastic I use is extremely soft, flexible and light.

One other thought I had was that if a rider believes they have a harsh bit it may train them to have more sympathetic hands. Although I would only put this theory into practice when said rider is under supervision, I have seen the bloodstained results of harsh hands and harsh bitting - not pleasant.

I would love to see some research done on bitting using a pressure sensor test on a model horse's head/neck. The model would have to be fairly sophisticated but it would be fascinating to see what REALLY happens when particular bits are used an why the horse reacts the way it does.

[cvb]

Originally posted by AmandaW
Though I still don't understand where the gag action comes from when using the dutch gag or three ring snaffle or bubble bit or whatever it is called? It seems to me to have much more of an action akin to a hanging cheek snaffle rather than the lifting of an English style gag??

I suspect its misnamed, as it does not have the sliding action that lifts the bit in the horses mouth - other than what happens because of the big loose main ring.

Which I guess is the difference to a hanging snaffle - aren't they normally fixed rings ?

I rode my pony in a bubble bit because 99% of the time he only needed a snaffle, and 1% he needed some more control. The only time he got really het up in it, he curled up and bounced.

Personally I've used loose ring french link a lot - but I am sure that is partly a psychological effect that I like them so ride better knowing it is there. The feel of a horse that is unhappy in its mouth is really not nice :( so I would not ride in this bit if the horse was not also happy with it (ditto for any other bit).

(Wouldn't be easier if they could TELL us what they liked/needed ?!)

[Monty]

Pelham bits are only as harsh as the hands that operate them.

[cvb]

p.s. meant to mention, the mechanical horses that e.g. the BHS have do have a function where if you 'pull' it stops. I have seen someone having problems getting it to go because they were hanging on too much. Its pretty crude, but at least its a start !

[Bebe]

AmandaW, I'm not sure where gags get their reputation from but in recent years they seem to have become really fasionable which I think has led to them being used by people who have no clue what they're really for. It's pretty sad but I have never seen one being used correctly - e.g with 1 rein on the top ring and 1 on the lower. I have seen many people riding with 1 set of reins on the bottom ring which means their horses look great if you just look at the head pulled into the chest (poor, poor horses).

So, I suppose I should have really said that gags used incorrectly are far more harsh than a correctly used pelham.

[AmandaW]

cvb yes that's it, a hanging cheek are fixed rings aren't they.

Bebe, you're right, they do seem to have become almost universal and very rarely do you see them with 2 reins. Mind you I have seen pelhams used in all sorts ways too, once I even saw one fitted upside-down, but I don't think that one was intentional!!

Don't think that I am anti-pelham, because I think the mullen mouth combined with an elastic curb is a lovely combination and as Heather has demonstrated time and time again, can very quickly produce a relaxed and happy horse. Which is what we all want in the end, isn't it?

[Sue Watson]

The horse's and the human's attitude to bitting are very interesting. I was ruminating on the subject today as I hacked out. In the some people's eyes many bits that produce a quick reaction in a horse are considered harsh. Why is that? I have seen horses practically having their bottom jaw sawn off in a snaffle/flash combo to the extent that the mouths are bleeding, the horse still will not soften (unsurprizingly) and this bitting is considered 'kind' and the same person would not consider any bit with curb action as it is harsh. What constitutes harsh? Is it not sometimes confused with a bit that will cause a reaction.

[Shiny McShine]

It is my opinion that as long as a bit is adjusted correctly, particuarly so as it is not too tight and that it has no sharp edges and does not effect the horse when not in use that it is totally the rider that makes the bit harsh or soft.

I am sure that good rider, say from the Spanish Riding School, would be just as soft on their horse whether it was in a curb, a pelham, a gag, a snaffle or a piece of string.

On the other a really bad rider, one who is totally unsensitive with their hands will be harsh on the horse no matter which bit is used, however some bits will have a worse maximum harshness, or will more easily cause discomfort to the horse when used strongly. I imagine in the hands of this rider that a snaffle would be far more gentle than a gag, pelham or curb in the respect that there is less leverage and no curb. It is the poor rider who dictates the harshness of the bit.

Therefore it is my opinion that a beginner or rider with poor control of their hands should not ride in these bits, at least not without supervision. On the otherhand an experienced, soft handed rider should have no problem using a pelham or any other bit without worry of being harsh on the horse but with having the option of quickly correcting mistakes, disobediences and overall communicating with the horse in a more refined way.

[Shiny McShine]

I thought I should add that this does not mean a poor rider will not cause discomfort to the horse in a snaffle by sawing or pulling hard, just that the same thing in a pelham or gag would be worse. Some might argue that the rider would not need to saw or pull with this bit but I am sure most people have seen how one bit turns into a harsher bit into a harsher bit, because these harsh bits 'stopped working'.

This is my constant arguement about riding - give the rider an education where they cannot go wrong with the basics then let them use what they want. If you learn to use your hands correctly then you can address any other problems... as it goes "look first to yourself for problems".

[Janette]

WOW!!
Thanks for all of these opinions.
I've decided to leave Star in her pelham, because she goes seetly in it. I believe that this 'expert' has never used a pelham correctly, and refuses to.
Star is not napping, or exhibiting any other antisocial behaviour, I think people look at the curb chain and panic.
Star was ridden in a bubble bit when going x-country, but only once because it made her mouth bleed. However, this person would not use the pelham because it was too harsh (?curb action), despite the fact that it is much more comfortable.

[Sue Watson]

I fully agree that it is the hands of the rider that will make a bit harsh or not, and that good hands will make all bits good. The question in my mind is whether in poor hands a bit that causes a quick reaction, ie a pelham, gag etc are actually worse. Is the horse really drawing himself away from pain or is he reacting to a pressure point stimulous. Why should the feeling of pressure on the poll be 'worse' than the nutcraker action on the jaw. How much actual evaluation of the horse's reaction has been done or is much of the theory on bitting passed down in literature without any analysis?

[chapsi]

People's opinions on bits unfortunately are not consensual, leaving plenty of room for debate and confused heads (as mine, I'm afraid).
Just as by coincidence, This week I received a newsletter from Jessica Jahiel (an American trainer), as follows:

"Using a curb can certainly teach your horse to back away from the bit, but if you want to do dressage, it would not be a good idea to teach your horse to work behind the bit like a Western horse. In Western riding, curbs are meant for one-handed riding and looped reins, not for two-handed riding with the horse on contact at all times. In English riding, the curb is used only as part of a double bridle, to enhance and refine the longitudinal flexion of a highly-trained horse. In dressage, the curb is not used to train the green horse, or to provide a set of brakes for a horse that's too large or too energetic for its rider, or to control the
"made" horse (although you will probably meet people who will argue that one or another of those IS the reason for the use of the curb). The curb is used to achieve great refinement in the (proficient) rider's rein aids, in the same way that the spur is used to fine-tune the signals from the (proficient) rider's boot. In competition, the real aim is to display the highly-educated RIDER's ability to use both snaffle and curb to make tiny
adjustments to the horse's head carriage without corrupting the horse's movement or impulsion. And indeed the curb, like the spur, is a very revealing piece of equipment - if the rider has insufficiently-educated hands or legs, the horse's reactions to the curb or spur will make this fact instantly and absolutely obvious to all observers. You can safely put the curb aside for now.
Early dressage training is aimed at relaxing the young horse, then helping him develop a clear, consistent, accurate rhythm in his gaits. Once the relxation and rhythm are established, the rider will work at gymnasticizing the young horse, helping him become supple, flexible, and evenly-developed on both sides. Bending and flexing exercises are part of this education and
development, but they're not goals in themselves, and in dressage, there CANNOT be any question of "the end justifying the means". In any case, it won't work! If the rider's or trainer's focus is on creating a certain "look", not on building a horse that will eventually have the strength and flexiblity and understanding to be able to carry itself and move correctly, then that horse is not ever going to be able to develop or move correctly, because there is no way to "fake" the necessary strength OR flexibility OR
understanding.
If you've ever taken ballet lessons, you'll know that it takes time and effort and a systematic program of progressive exercises to create in a young dancer the ability to (for example) lift her leg straight up, high over her head. If anyone suggested to you that it would be much faster and more effective to use a rope and pulley to force her leg into that position and hold it there, you would be horrified - and you would know that any such action would probably cause enough damage to the dancer's body to put an end to any hope of a career in dance. But this is very much what happens to a horse when someone says, in effect, "I can't be bothered to take the time to do this properly, I know what I think it's supposed to LOOK like when the horse is fully trained, so I'll just use these ropes and pulleys (or a bit and reins and the rider's biceps) to FORCE him into what I think the position should be."
The person who asks "How do I make this young dancer's leg go way up in the air and stay there, right now?" and the rider who asks "How can I force my horse's neck and head to curve in a particular direction?" have something in common - they are both asking the wrong question.
In the case of the dancer, the right question would be: "How can I help this young dancer become stronger and more supple and flexible, with better control over her body, so that she will be able to lift her OWN leg high into the air and hold it there - without experiencing pain and without causing damage to her body?"
In the case of the horse, the right question would be: "How can I help this young horse become stronger and more supple and flexible, with better control over his body, so that he will be able to bend his body evenly and easily, from nose to tail, when I ask (not force) him to do so, and maintain the bend without experiencing pain or causing damage to his body?"

"Contact is NOT about a FRAME - it's about a CONNECTION. Too much focus on the horse's head and neck, too much pressure on the reins, too-strong contact and trying to pull the horse's head into the turn will NEVER have the effect you're hoping to achieve. The secret of good head and neck position on turns is simple: the horse's head and neck complete the curve established by the horse's BODY and legs in response to the rider's position and aids. A good rider will never try to pull the horse through a
turn, but will set him up for, and ride him through, a balanced turn. Keep your rein contact gentle and EVEN, and let your horse keep his neck in front of his shoulders and his head in front of his neck.
"Now, let's look at bits. The reason I don't like to see a horse wearing a Pelham or a Kimblewicke for early training is that this is precisely the time when the horse needs to learn to move confidently forward and stretch toward the bit, into the rider's hand, INTO contact. The use of a curb, either alone (the Kimblewicke) or alternating with a snaffle (the Pelham -
the effect at any given moment depends on whether you are using the upper or lower rein), tends to discourage the horse from reaching forward and accepting contact calmly.
The rider who does trade her snaffle for a curb often finds that the horse "feels lighter", and thinks "Oh, my, he goes so much better in the curb, the contact is so much lighter!" Well, no, not really - what's actually happening is that the horse now feels a much STRONGER bit action from every movement of the rider's fingers, and becomes understandably wary of the bit, and cautious in his movement. This can reassure a nervous rider and
make her feel "more in control", but it's bad for the horse's development and training. Once a horse has learned "bit bad, bit painful, must avoid bit" and developed the habit of tucking his chin and avoiding contact with the rider's hands, it's a very difficult - and often lengthy - process to re-train him.
It's not always easy to tell which issues are mental and which are
physical, but if you're willing to assume that horses are generous and willing - which they ARE - then you'll find that, 99% of the time (or more), looking for and solving PHYSICAL issues will eliminate the problem.
Pain is a physical issue. Most mental issues, with horses, come down to fear or confusion. The former is caused by pain (physical), and the latter by inconsistency and/or lack of clarity on the rider's part.
I think that what you need is more time riding your horse in the gentlest possible snaffle, and perhaps even some time riding with no bit at all, so that you can see for yourself that there is no need to put heavy pressure on the bit. Try to spend a few months - INVEST a few months, I should say - working on the most basic concepts of relaxation, rhythm, energetic forward
movement, and straightness, with the clear idea that your hands will only ASK (gently), and that any INSISTING will be done with your legs. When your horse moves with confidence and balance, you'll find that riding a turn will require only that you look through the turn, indicate the bend with your legs, and ride your horse forward in rhythm. The reins will lie against his neck and provide reassurance, but you won't need to shorten your inside rein at all, and you certainly won't need to pull.
A thoughtful rider like yourself, especially one with a Baroque horse, needs to spend some time considering the more philosophical aspects of riding, including the purpose and meaning of contact. If dropping the contact entirely is a reward for the horse, what does that say about the nature of the contact, and about the rider's attitude toward contact?
Whenever I hear someone say "Don't drop the contact, you're rewarding the horse", I have to wonder how the horse perceives the contact. Classical training requires that the rider maintain the horse's comfort, respect its feelings and needs, and develop its physique and understanding so that it learns first to accept, then to welcome, and finally to seek contact with the rider's hands. In the process, the young horse must learn to balance itself under the rider, and so the horse may, early in its training, take a
heavier contact than the rider finds enjoyable. From the very beginning, think in terms of seat, legs, and hands - and use them in that order. Try to keep your contact even on both reins, and as light as your horse can comfortably accept, but don't "throw the horse away". The contact between his mouth and your hand is the connection that completes the circle of the aids: your legs activate his belly and hind legs, your seat allows his back to lift and stretch, your hands accept the contact that he creates when he lifts the base of his neck and reaches forward. If you force or take away any part of this, either through heavy, forcible gripping with seat, legs, or hands, or through dropping the contact with seat, legs, or hands, the circle is broken and the connection is lost."

[Sue Carnell]

I believe that Jessica is both right and wrong. Use a severe curb bit to force your horse into compliance and be fooled by his evasion into thinking he's light... that's wrong. Use a mild curb bit to help you educate your horse and your hands... that's right in my opinion. Many horses are more comfortable in a rubber (or other soft) mullen bit. Add elastic as the curb and short shanks and he responds with a reflex action that makes it easier for the rider, who, having to cope with two reins, often becomes more sensitive. Riding bitless may help to an extent. If the rider's balance is lacking it can be kinder to ride bitless whilst practising. On the lunge would be even better. If the horse's mouth has been damaged, then riding bitless would be kind to let him heal. However, riding bitless wouldn't necessarily educate the horse, just the rider. It's different views and different methods.

I have often found that horses who have learned to evade a strong rein pressure with a jointed snaffle by overbending and tucking their chin to their chest, actually become less likely to overbend and more uphill when changed into a mild pelham. It's not always been their particular rider's hands who have taught them to overbend and evade either. Often it's a habit and reaction from previous heavy handed riders and they will overbend and tuck behind the bit expecting strong hands and pain, even if it doesn't happen. I would agree with Jessica that it is very difficult to retrain a horse who has learned this evasion, built the muscle to support it (and broken down the ligaments) and it's become habit. A change of bit, to something that might seem harsher to some people, but doesn't appear to be to the horse involved, can often be the answer. No, I don't expect the horse to keep up a particular way of going if he doesn't have the muscle to support it, nor should any of us, but giving the help to gain the 'outline' and giving him plenty of opportunity to relax and stretch can be a far quicker and kinder answer, than persisting with a bit he learned to evade and was abused with.

It's an argument that will never be won. However, I listen to my horse. He likes a Cyprium, french link snaffle, a hard rubber pelham with elastic curb and a Stubben, hollow mouth french link snaffle. He doesn't like a nylon, or metal mullen snaffle, a sweet-iron snaffle, or a KK. He tells me by how easily he accepts the bit into his mouth when I bridle him and by how happy he is when I'm riding him.

In this instance, the reply is Jessica's opinion, not fact and not written in stone. If you try a mild curb and find your horse is backing off and it's not helping your riding, then you can always take it off again.

"Force" is the operative word here I think. There's nothing to stop a rider gymnastisicing, suppling and muscling her horse in a pelham. It would appear that the general concensus amongst purists is that it's cheating, it's not real and it means you'll go straight to piaffe (or brakes out hunting) and forget about long reins, suppling exercises and relaxation, when more often than not, done thoughtfully, the opposite is the real result and the result is genuine.

Sue
sue@eclipse.co.uk

[Dizzy]

I'm no expert when it comes to bits. The horses I have owned or loaned have only ever been ridden in snaffles, plain or french link.

I have no problem with any rider using a 'severe' bit, if the horse is balanced, relaxed, going forward and happy, used in that context its not severe. The hands holding the contact determines the educational qualities or the severity of the bit.

But the riders hands are only part of the equation, lack of legs is the biggest problem, and it is so common that hollow, tense horses flee from the riders legs, and run through the bit, either by leaning or over bending. The answer to the problem is teach the horse to accept your legs, and go happily forward into your hands.

If the horse does not accept and respond to the riders legs and seat, any bit is severe.

Lesley

[ros]

For my part, I get a bit fed up of all these pompous people who imply that no-one who uses a Pelham can tell a horse that tucks its chin into its chest from one that's working correctly.

And I have to say that the majority of horses that I see out and about with their noses in the air and their backs hollow and their legs trailing behind them are NOT being ridden in Pelhams; nor do THEIR riders seem to have the faintest idea that their horses aren't going correctly.

As everyone else here seems to agree, it's a big mistake to focus on the bit when we should be focusing on the rider. And I'm quite sure you'll do no more and possibly less damage with a hard rubber Pelham and elastic curb than you will with a jointed snaffle - if you're that way inclined, of course :rolleyes:

[Mossy]

Surely if a horse os going properly you can feel the weight in your hands. If they are behind the bit and evading you have nothing in your hands, just a set of reins and no control at all. Moss goes behind the bit occasionally - usually when he is having a paddy - overexcitement out hunting or similar - and unless I react very quickly with a very non PC double barrelled boot I just know the next move will be the front end going skywards. Incidentally it does not matter which bit he is wearing but his antics are less frequent if he has curb of some description. Since I ride fast in company with one set of reins the bit in question is a rubber kimblewick.

[ros]

Mossy - if a horse is happy and accepting I think he may want to take some contact himself, or he may feel he doesn't need the support of the reins. The trouble is, these days so many people seem to misinterpret this business of "going forward into a contact" as having the horse hanging on the rider's hands, or, worse, having the rider hang onto the horse's mouth. I rode one of our livery horses a little while ago, and his rider really thinks he goes nicely. To me, he felt hollow, stiff and rubber-necked, and the only way you could get him to drop his head from giraffe position was to take a very firm "contact" - MUCH firmer than I would ever want to take on a horse. But his rider thinks that's OK because she's been encouraged to do that. All I can say is, poor horse.

I think the actual degree of contact you need depends on a variety of things, including the horse's physique and his stage of training. But always we should be aiming for lightness and self-carriage, and it's a pity if we're not taught to recognise the difference between that and true evasion, because if we can't feel when the horse is giving us what we want, how on earth can we reward him?

As for the rest of it, I'm perfectly well aware that Merlin does exactly what Moss does when he's over-excited - he tucks his nose into his chest and Evades :eek: Oh the shame! But then, that's no different from telling your teenage son that he jolly well CAN'T borrow Dad's Porsche to take his mates out on Saturday night for pizza and a few lagers ;)

[cvb]

When I was younger I was 'taught' (by entirely reputable instructors) to expect a really heavy feel at the end of the rein, and that getting the horse 'on the bit' was a pull-and-tug effort taking a great deal of hard work.

It was only through working by myself with my own pony that I discovered it was possible to do it with lightness - and my suspicions that this was actually a better way were confirmed by a great instructor I was lucky enough to be taught by.

There are an awful lot of people who don't know that they are not getting the best from their horse merely because they have never been told, had the chance to feel it, seen it demonstrated.

Ros - you may get fed up with the stereotyping of pelham users - but actually I'll lay a bet that there are a significant number if people out there, using all kinds of bits, that really can't tell the difference between a horse tucking its head in, and one working correctly.

For me it was like some kind if holy grail, that 'right' feeling, until I was lucky enough to feel what it should be like. Its a bit like love - you don't really know what it is til you find it ! (and its different with every horse).

I just wish I could wave a magic wand and find a way to let every rider know what it felt like.

[Mossy]

Hi ros
I was trying to find the words to describe that feeling when you know the horse is carrying themselves happily, neither being winched in nor leaning on the bit. and therefore your hands, and certainly not behind it. I failed and you succeeded, Thankyou. imho a horse cannot be happy on a tight contact, but how many horses are taught via side reins that going tight is what is expected of them. The riders tighten up to find the "contact" and a vicious circle is set up?
Ps How many of us have read that article in this month's? Your Horse involving an animal with a pelham, single rein on the curb, flash nosebaband and running martingale. She wants to hunter trial but lacks confidence, I suggest she learns to ride first!!! Yes I do put Conn in a martingale with her pelham on a rare occasion. but on the snaffle rein and because I do not appreciate being bashed in the face when she spooks. Her instinctive reaction is "OMG whats that" head up and back followed by spin. I am slowly teaching her to look and work it out for herself rather than run. She has not "used" her martingale for ages. Her reins are usually loose but I know I have the extra there when and if called for. I would not dream of thinking of X country until I have sorted out the mutual trust and flat work first.

[Kerry's Partner]

Well as you know I will not have read the article in Your Horse but for fractions of time I do experience that "I just KNOW" feeling (well sometimes for longer than fractions of time). It is such an out of this world experience, SO good, and so definitely ALL Kerry being so light, happy, free and whatever the right words are in the dressage world. AND yes she's in her Pelham and happier, I'm sure, than she's been for the largest part of her whole life.

Sandra

[AmandaW]

Oh I am still so novicey at all this, but yes the difference between that soft elastic, spongey feeling of the horse being there, just right, compared with the nothing, where the horse has come behind the bit (with Leah this was usually accompanied by noises rather like those eminating from an excited pig!). And the difference between a horse taking a very strong hold and one that feels it would fall on its nose if your were not holding its head up.

I was hacking a horse yesterday who would not go properly forward, was behind the contact, all movement was up and down rather than forward. I was saying try a mullen blah blah blah. A friend jumped on who hasn't ridden for 2 years. He went as sweetly as anything for him!!:rolleyes: There must have been something about my contact that he hated - I had tried a very light giving, stronger, or no contact at all, all with various amounts of leg but failed miserably. This riding lark is such an art!

[Janette]

More confused than ever now!!!!!!!