Overbent - any suggestions?

[Esther.D]

I ride Rupert (6yr old NF type 13.2hh) in a French link snaffle, but he overbends and refuses to take contact. I ride with a very gentle contact anyway but all he seems to settle with is no contact at all. He also plays with the bit a lot and throws his head occasionally. If he objects to anything he roots himself to the spot (he is only 6 so I know this is not unusual) and if I try to take any contact or push him on he goes backwards.

His teeth are fine and have been checked, his tack seems to fit fine and has been checked, his back seems okay and he is free moving and bends well.

Should I try another bit or even a bitless bridle with him (he can be quite strong to handle on the ground when he doesn't have a bit in)? Or is it a case of perserving and schooling?

He was a child's pony before I bought him, I don't know whether he is shy of contact as a result of heavy hands or even the opposite - unused to contact at all....He is certainly shy of children anyway - he won't go near them if we meet any!

Any ideas?

[eml]

If Rupert is strong two things are possible...perhaps he was ridden in something like a pelham or kimberwick to make him easier for children, or perhaps as you say he never felt a contact. I dont think the latter is very likely from your decription however. We have had similar problems with ponies that had been driven and it usually comes back to unfamiliarity with a jointed bit. Could you perhaps borrow some sort of unjointed bit...we have found a hanging cheek mullen mouth works well if this is the problem as it gives a familiar feeling with some poll pressure and is allowed in dressage etc.

[Esther.D]

Thanks for the reply. :)

He was wearing the french link when I bought him. I have tried him in a pelham (with two reins) to see whether a very light contact in a stronger bit might suit him better but he was very overbent and unhappy in it (even though I only really used the snaffle rein and didn't touch the curb), he set his jaw and wouldn't accept any contact or relax his mouth at all. He went very cautiously and stiffly as if he was frightened of the bit so I went back to his french link. I can try a straight bar/mullen mouth snaffle but I don't know whether it was the straight bar he objected to on the pelham as I didn't touch the curb action....It may be worth a try though.

When I bought him he was in the french link with a running martingale but I have stopped using the martingale as it was not really needed (he tosses his head occasionally but not enough to cause a problem).

Although he is strong on the ground he is light mouthed to ride, even if he is playing up.

He is quite an anxious pony anyway and is tense most of the time, perhaps this reaction is nerves rather than the bit?

I am working on doing slow, easy work with him and lots of handling to try and relax him. He seems to have been brought up with kids jumping on, galloping about, jumping with him and nothing else. He had a lot of child's pony bad habits when I bought him - nipping, barging, grabbing grass etc but is losing those very fast.

[eml]

Just read your reply. Really just sounds like anxiety. We bought a NF mare who behaved in just the same way...overbent in trot, headtossing in canter, tongue over bit and..jumping too horrible to describe. We did lots of repetitive schooling, especially in trot, never cantering unless she was relaxed, going back to pole work and she is 95% better. Still throws her head around if you dont give enough in the first stride of canter but if you ride her with your body and very little hand she works beautifully, the contact could be held on a piece of cotton!

[ros]

I think I'd tend to persevere with something very plain and gentle like a mullen mouth rubber snaffle. One thing to remember is that horses that have been ridden for any length of time in martingales can become reliant on them, and can take some time to get used to being without them.

If he's been pulled about in any way and he's a sensitive pony he could take quite a while to come to.

[Shiny McShine]

It sounds to me as if he needs to learn to go forward more and that you may need to use more leg on him. The fact that he exhibits the combination of not taking a contact and playing with the bit/tossing his head suggests to me that he is not confident of taking the contact nor does he know what is acceptable. In my experience horses who toss their head and play with the bit alot (providing health and flies etc are not a problem) do it because they are testing the water so to speak.

It sounds as if he is avoiding the contact because he is afraid of it but he wants to work for you but is confussed about the whole thing. Alot of the time if you continue to ride on a light rein but really ride forward (especially on circles) that the horse will accept the contact and you won't get the head tossing and so forth either.

[virtuallyhorses]

Forward, forward, forward !!!

Ride him forward and leave your hands still - don't play his game of being distracted by the bit\the bridle\ his mucking around simply ride him forward and don't even think about getting him round or on the bit.

You cannot do anything if he will not go forward, but you must also make sure that you are not fussing with your hands or reins so that when he does go forward he can be confident in the contact and not afraid of being 'hit' in the mouth or immediately asked to back off again.

[Esther.D]

Okay..there seems to be a general theme to these answers...be gentle with the mouth but forget about outline until you have forward motion - sounds good to me:D

Actually Rupert does test me out anyway (he can be very nervous but he can also be very stubborn and crafty) so it could well be the little monkey trying that again, probably combined with some past experiences of being hauled about.

We have worked through almost all of his evasion tactics on the ground and he is getting to be really good to handle but I think there are still some riding issues to be resolved.

Last week we went for a ride before he had breakfast (out of necessity) and he was convinced the others were getting fedwithout him so I had to lead him part of the way as we got rooted to the spot...then he saw some hay and threw a little tantrum because I wouldn't let him have it (stamping feet, jiggling around on the spot, refusing to go forward) but I managed to win that one without getting down (just by pushing him on and sitting it out refusing to let him reach the hay) and we went forward again.

I hadn't connected his evasion of the bit with this testing behaviour but now you have mentioned it, it does make some sense...

If it is the same then it should resolve itself with persistant gentle work (never putting him in a position where he 'wins') like the ground work did.

Many thanks, will keep at it!

Any opinions on bitting - someone suggested a mullen mouth rubber snaffle - should I try that or stick to his fench link?

[cvb]

Hi Esther,

Just been looking at all your piccies. and it occurred to me that maybe he has never been educated mouthwise ? I mean he's not so old, and he came to you from kids. So maybe no one has ever taught him what contact is all about ?

There is a picture of him just standing with you on, and his weight looks quite forward. I was thinking that maybe he needs some help to build up some strength along his top line, so he can carry himself and you better, stepping under more and gradually carrying less weight on his forehand ?

I would be tempted to start by trying to get the classic long and low novice outline. Always ask him to be forward, active and straight. I appreciate its not actually that easy when you are dodging shetland ponies, bushes, and coping with him being a baby ! But when you have done a little "work" (e.g. trotting out on a hack, maybe up a slope) and ask him for walk - then try for a free walk on a long rein with him really stretching out.

In terms of bit, I think you may confuse him if you change things - unless you have clear signs that he is uncomfortable with the french link (rather than just uneducated). In the other thread you talk about using a hackamore - my personal view is that bitless bridles can be really good to help a horse understand basic aids, and then they become softer when you go back to a bit, because they understand it more.

Another trick to get them to lengthen along the top is getting them to step over things - trotting poles, raised trotting poles, logs, you name it. Allow them to look down and snigg it, then slowly and quietly step over.

[Esther.D]

Thanks cvb - I don't know whether I mentioned it in the other thread but I was intending to use the hackamore to carry on riding with well re-introducing the bit as I would to mouth a youngster. At the moment I am coming to the conclusion that in experience (schooling wise) he is probably more like 3 rather than 6 so I will work from that premise when I work with him.

He is very on the forehand, the way he is standing in that photo is quite typical. Will try your suggestions. Would you work over trotting poles etc on the lunge/long reins or ridden or both?

[cvb]

probably both. My mum's Fell was off for a long time with bad feet. We started him back into the idea of work by just walking him over poles on a headcollar and lead rope. Then you can build up. I set up a fan of poles with the centre raised to make him think a bit more.

The only thing about lunge is whether you are using side reins or not ? I would do the pole work without them, so he was encouraged to stretch lots. So perhaps you could do it as part of warm up or cool down ?

[Cheko]

Some really great advice from cvb.

[Esther.D]

I was not using side reins on the lunge - what you can see on the photo are his ordinary reins just fastened under the stirrups so they don't fall under his feet. They were very loose so there was no contact at all. Thanks for the ideas! I will try some poles..