Natural Horsemanship

[Cheko]

How can it be called 'natural horsemanship' when so many seemingly spiteful pieces of equipment are needed to make the horse behave? My idea of natural horsemanship is usually body weight to change direction and sitting down harder in the saddle to make the horse stop, slow down or whatever. I use natural body aids, ie shift of weight etc on my Exmoor gelding which seems to work. When I want to stop, I prepare him with my body positon and then tell him to wait - which he does 9 times out of 10. Also the equipment you have to use is sooooooo expensive. Be nice halters, carrot sticks etc would be wasted on us. I dont even need to lead him by his head collar as I trained him to walk to heel like a dog. I only did it for a laugh initially but it worked and he seemed to like it. So I carried on. He doesn't sit tho. May be some other time.

[janet hakeney]

Purhaps we are not all as good at it as you are?

[Sue Carnell]

Lyz I'm very happy that you have a good relationship with your pony and that he walks to heel for you, but please don't knock other people's choices, especially on a forum devoted to the particular choice you're knocking. They do say, don't knock it 'til you've tried it. Me, I like my horse to stop 10x out of 10, not 9. ;)

No-one forces anyone to buy halters, ropes and carrot sticks, but they are less expensive than bridles and dressage whips and a person would still need a halter if they bought a bridle. Carrot sticks and Be Nice halters are totally separate though. One, the carrot stick, is part of Parelli Natural Horse-Man-Ship, Parelli uses plain rope halters, the Be Nice and pressure halters are a Monty Roberts thing.

Sue Carnell
sue@eclipse.co.uk

[Shiny McShine]

If we are going for straight definitions then you are right...it is not natural horsemanship. The whole idea of a horse and a human cooperating is unatural, so we should all include ourselves in that definition unless we only look at books and movies.

I think that perhaps that it comes down to experience as to what equipment is used. I don't know what you mean exactly by 'spiteful' equipment as I have never seen a spiteful piece of equipment in my life...only spiteful people. A good trainer, someone who knows how to communicate with the horse can use these seemingly cruel instruments to guide and direct the horse and most importantly communicate with him in the way that he best understands. If you have seen horses in a large group you will understand that they too use harsh 'equipment' such as their teeth and their heels.

Also there are probably many things we can get away with on our own horses from day to day but if we tried the same thing in a pressure situation or with an untrained horse we would probably fail.

I don't use the commercial equipment, many people do. That is not the point. The point is what you do with it. Make your own decisions based on what you want. If your exmoor is quite and has no problems doing anything you ask, and you do not wish to be able to do anything amazing then that equipment probably is wasted on you. Please, if it works for you don't think you have to change.

[Kerry's Partner]

Well, for our equines to survive but retain their finest qualities (which may, or may not have absolutely anything to do with how they look when ridden), let alone continue to evolve, they probably need some really good solutions (for them) re equine:human interaction. BUT that's just my opinion, and that to me is what natural horsemanship SHOULD be about.

All the rest is co-incidental. I'm learning about some of it and can, I think, make my own decisions about whether or not I think it's good for the horse. BUT I suppose I also ought to be honest about my own intentions. Which are really really ambitious and yet concentrate, largely, on my own equine (except I cannot help but wonder about the others I see).

My position btw is not an entirely emotional one from the experiences I have had with my own horse - I have studied a bit of that stuff called "evolution", but just at third level.

Sandra

[*Shantih*]

I just think that its best to have an open mind when it comes to horsemanship and do what ever you feel is best for your horse and what he/she responds to best. I do generally like a lot of the "natural" principles because they are focusing on seeing things from a horses point of view which is always going to be best.

I strive to have the best relationship i can with my horses through working on mutual respect. Its so much nicer not to have to resort to force or end up with a battle of wills. Its much more rewarding.

When it comes to husbandry. I recently helped out on a competition yard and was saddened that the horses were kept in their boxes 24/7 with just 40 mins exercise a day either in the walker, hacked out or schooled. Some of the horses seemed to cope better than others, but one of the horses in particular was box walking and weaving most of the time or just standing at the back of his stable looking very depressed.

I think that sometimes peoples sensitivity to horses needs goes out the window when it comes to competition success etc. The horse is just thought of as a machine rather that a living creature with needs (other than being fed, watered and kept warm) emotions! These people may say they love and care for their horses but do they really?

I could go on and on about the subject..... its something im very passionate about. But i won't bother because i find it difficult to put down into words whats in my head!?!

[mojo]

Shantih, The answer to your question. No they don't love thier horses. They love themselves and use thier horses to feed thier own egos. I think you have put into words perfectly what is in your head. I think I've conversed with you in another post and think that you probably feel just the same as i do. Its true people too often think of horses as machines. I'm not that experienced with horses but in the short time I've been involved with them, I have found I disagree with a lot of what is being taught/told. If I have ever gone against my instincts it's proved counter productive. I was once told to use a whip and raise my voice with a nappy mare who everyone said was very dominant and taking the p***. I so regret that.Although I must add here it was only a couple of taps on the bum, nothing major but I really don't believe in whips or shouting! a combination of ignorance and being scared made me go against my own instincts. Of course it didnt work, the horse just got more frightened and subsequently so did I. I still cringe when i think of it as not only did I let the horse down but i let myself down as well.
We all of us have to start looking at things from a horse's perspective. I think each horse is an individual and should be treated accordingly. Like you say there are no hard and fast rules. Horses arent robots!

[TNT]

I'm doing Natural Horsemanship with my 7 yr old mare for the fun of it! I'm learning to try some different things with her and we both are learning from the experience. My instructor charges nothing for his classes he just wants to share what he has learned through the years. The first thing he told us was not to go out and buy fancy equipment just to use what we've got. The games we have learned are fun . I've even developed my own trail course from bits and pieces around the farm. Imagination plays a big part in Natural Horsemanship and it keeps both of us interested in playing together. I guess what I'm saying is you don't have to learn it or pay big money for it. It's just fun to learn new ways to relate to your best buddy. It certainly doesn't hurt. Sounds like you and your horse are doing fine with what you are doing so just enjoy each others company.

[Kerry's Partner]

I think it's brilliant if you can interact without the need to buy expensive equipment but I don't think that's the same as saying if you need some equipment then whatever you need it for isn't to do with a form of natural horsemanship. Even livery costs differ and some are very expensive.

[cvb]

we domesticated horses years ago. Very few horses are truely 'natural' - perhaps some of the feral horses get close, and there might be a (very) few truely wild horses left.

As such we have a relationship with horses that is based on mutual need. It used to be that they worked for us, and we kept them. Now they provide more of a 'leisure' service, working on our health and spirits, while we look after them.

Yes we have to think about that relationship - we have a responsibility to do our best for our horses - what is best for them not what is best for us - but not forgetting that they ARE domesticated. Turning most of our horses out into the wild would be a death sentence for them - yet that would be the most 'natural' thing to do.

Because horses are domesticated, there is a big variety in how they respond. We had a brief experience with a gorgeous truly instinctive Eriskay mare. She saw the world and reacted to it in a completely different way to our two boys, who have a less wild background. My mare is also much more instinctive - I have a feeling she was born and spent her early years in a big herd living naturally (in Canada), which would explain a lot.

Unfortunatey the Eriskay mare had been living naturally, and at 2 was in foal. The foal was too big and we lost both mare and foal. We did not even know she was in foal when we got her, and had no idea when the foal was due. If thats natural, give me a bit of unnatural as we might have had a chance of saving her. (The vet had seen her the day before she foaled, and did not see any signs either).

As for the approach we call "natural horsemanship", IMHO it helps me have a better relationship with my horses and I can not see that any of the tools are "spiteful" unless (as Sue said) in the wrong hands. Any more than a horses teeth or hooves are 'spiteful' (but boy can they cause some damage !)

Maybe the name is misleading, but I'm more interested in what is behind the name than what we call it. The name just gives me a way to know that myself and the others are talking about the same subject !

[Cochise]

Originally posted by *Shantih*
I think that sometimes peoples sensitivity to horses needs goes out the window when it comes to competition success etc. The horse is just thought of as a machine rather that a living creature with needs (other than being fed, watered and kept warm) emotions! These people may say they love and care for their horses but do they really?

I could go on and on about the subject..... its something im very passionate about. But i won't bother because i find it difficult to put down into words whats in my head!?!

I know that you only said "some people"but I took this to heart a bit. As some of you know, I compete on quite a regular basis. And I think that judging on the posts I write about my horse if you read them, I love my horse with a passion and put his needs and welfare well before my own. I have a mutual respecting relationship with him and let him be himself as I could never jump down on his personality as that is one of the things I love about him the most. He lives out 24/7 as I live in an agreeable climate to do so. He has free range grazing and hay, and gets fair exercise. We dont only school, I ride him in a snaffle bridle all the time and yes we do strive for succes, but within a lot of limits.
Cheeky is no machine to me and I love and respect him with all my heart. I know many many other people out there who compete and feel the same way about their horses like I do.
Ask anyone on this board about the way I write about Cheeky and our relationship I hope that they would agree with me.

[Kerry's Partner]

Oh Cochise - I, at any rate, have never thought anything other than you love your horse to bits and have a brilliant relationship too. That's in some ways what I was meaning when I was talking about the equine's evolution - which is quite different to evolution meaning turning them all out in the wild to perish and die!!

Yes we ask different things of them and like in your case it may be competing (your own high standards) etc. Which, surely is a really good thing.

The "thing" or "things" called natural horsemanship are the same imo - there are those who create and/or use the different forms to help them develop such a brilliant (and maybe different kind) of relationship with their horse(s) - but there will always be some who create or use a system simply for their own profit or career development.

[*Shantih*]

Sorry Cochise.... I wasn't relating what i said to everyone who competes with their horses. I was just refering to that particular yard. Ive got nothing against competing, i was just talking about some peoples management of horses to suit their own needs rather than the horses.


See i told u i am no good with words!

I basically echo what Kerry's Partner has said!

Sorry again. No offence intended.

It certainly sound like Cheeky has a great life!

Sam x

[Cochise]

hehe I know, it was 1am, and I misread it a bit. But I do agree with some aspects of what you are saying. I do know of some people and hear of others that only have horses as a means to glorify themselves. I could have ended up like that (nah not really lol) but I fell in love instead ;)

[Kerry's Partner]

It's a brilliant experience isn't it - to fall in love-------------with an equine!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Rebekah Simpson]

I like how Shiny McShine put it. I haven't been riding for long but I see a major difference in the PEOPLE that handle horses and equipment. Give a crop to my instructor for instance (who happens to be one of my best friends) and she will use it with a sense of fairness and respect for the horse. There's a balance, you have to be firm but you have to be kind. A good relationship with the horses is what this should be about anyways! It's a different story with some people unfortunately. One of my favorite quotes is, "There are two kinds of horse people: Those who love the fame, and those who love the horses." Just remember, horses have feelings too! :)

-Rebekah

[*Shantih*]

Well put Rebekah!

[Busterbum22]

i love the natural horsemanship, and have even done a course with kelly marks. and as for the comment about the halters and such like being expensive well its like the old saying you get what you pay for, and used correctly they are not cruel they are just the opposite they make learning and understanding easier for the horse in a way the horse finds easy to understand.

and i don't see how you can say that using weight aids on a horse is natural horsemanship, have you ever seen a stallion or lead mare, jumping on another horses back using weight aids to get the move a certain way. i don't think so. they use body language