Respect or love??? Introducing some debate.

[Kerry's Partner]

Here I go again!!!!!!!! I played with (and still do) my children, cats, and now my horse - but not to DEMAND "respect" - I just do it because I love them and want them to be happy.

[Kerry's Partner]

Of course I also play with my grandchildren every time we meet - I don't demand their respect either - but I do feel I have to earn it!! They btw, as well as my children, and cats and horse, trust me to care for them when they are sick!!

[galadriel]

Any time you interact with another creature, you change or reinforce how it views you.

I play with my dogs, and do it because it's fun--but I have specific boundaries, specific things they *must* do (for example, they must allow me to take the ball from their mouth and not get possessive or snappy), and things where they are allowed a fair amount of leeway. Any time I interact with them, I have to keep the boundaries in mind. If I let them slip, I could end up with a dangerous carnivore.

When I play with my horses, it's very similar. We have fun things we do, fun things they're allowed to get away with, but there are places I draw the line and insist they continue to respect my authority.

[Kerry's Partner]

Thank you. I don't disagree with the need to being "safe" - but this is different to having a desire for "respect" first and foremost I would say.

My own view is that "partnership" is first and foremost - and that means you are safe anyway. This has, in my own experience, allowed me to gain the same privilege with Kerry as I have with my children, grandchildren and (ferral) cats: when they're sick it is me they trust to care for them - and it's a good job really because I doubt that anyone else would!!!!

As a mere human, I don't think I could ask for anything more - and I certainly couldn't and wouldn't demand anything else either.

Sandra

[lamprellsarah]

with kid, dogs, and cats i find it a lot easier i don't know if it's my genral nature but theres no problem we paly have fun and never have a problem with respect or anything like that it just happens and works naturally

with horses, there always has to be that bit more of a boundry, when we played with the foals, we had to be careful how far or excited they got as one playful rear can hit you on the head and kill you!!

[Wally]

How many folk respect their boss because he is bossy and DEMANDS your respect.....demanding anything will be met with distain.

The best bosses are the ones who listen to you, treat you almost as equal, but respect you in return.

Your kids will respect you becuase you are fair but still in charge, same with grand children.

Love and respect go hand in hand, you cannot have one without the other, but don't demand either.

I am hapy when my horses offer me the Earth, I don't ask them for the moon too!

[Kerry's Partner]

Yeah without a doubt I guess. It's not in my own experience 'though. Kerry is 13 and so certainly no foal. So I can only ask for debate on the basis of our own experience - sorry for that in some ways but still up for debate in other ways. She deserves to be "free" of "demand" in order to be cared for when she's very sick.

[lamprellsarah]

wally that summed it up, you are good with words!!!!!
i am awful i cna't ever get my thoughts across!!!

[Kerry's Partner]

I can't see the keyboard at all - but anyway, THANK YOU.

Sandra

[Wally]

Naahh! ask Frances....most folk that come across me end up sobbing.....

Ljósfaxi is 15 now I got him when he was 12-13? can't remember.

He was a problem horse and recommended he be shot as he was too untrustworthy.

I had him on 6 months loan......I nearly sent him back 3 times. I wondered if he truly enjoyed human company or whether he was so scared of me an others it was kinder to let him be.

It has taken YEARS to get him to trust me, he trusts me... that is enough, he will do most things I ask of him..if he overloads, so be it, he did his best and that is enough, it is all you can ask of anyone, their best. We have an understanding, he will let ME do things that he will not let others do...a pain when time is short, but it is an honour to succeed where others wrote him off.

He gives me the Moon as well as the Earth, it is up to me to offer him a few things back!

[Kerry's Partner]

AND that's why I think that both you and Frances are "humans to be respected" - notice we cannot demand that!!!!!!!!!!


Sandra

[Wally]

Awwwww! Now I'm brimming!

[cvb]

I 'play' with Fifi because she only has limited ways to tell me how she is feeling. If I just lead her from the field to the stable, just groom, her, tack her up, ride her - yes she has opportunities to 'talk' to me me, but only in a limited way because there is no reall freedom to express herself.

But if I let her loose in the indoor school - then she has 40 by 20 and up-down, left-right, forward-back to express herself - and boy does she !

Some days she just goes absolutely crazy - bucking, kicking, galloping, making turns and figure 8's around me, flirting with me as she goes past then bombing away again. Til she decides she's had enough and comes up to me to say she's done.

Other days she just rolls, does a quick turn in trot, and comes straight back.

Even how she rolls tells me something. Or how long she takes before she rolls to find just the right place.

Yes I ask that she respects my space and does not hurt me in her play. But the respect is just a part of the environment, the setting for the play. For me it is not the reason we do it, or even the result.

[Wally]

Doesn't it make you wonder when they do have a mad half hour just how easy it would be for them to dump you?...if they wanted to!

We see our lot going crazy round the park, galloping down the scariest hills bucking into the bargain......nobody in the workd would stay on that....NOBODY. Yet when we get on 9 times out of ten they seem to want us to stay there! That is something never to forget and to be honoured by!

If they want you off (Monty don't red this!) ther is often a reason and listen to the horse...respect him.

Monty has listened to Rebs. She has had the highest authorities in the land look at him....it's about time he respected her:D :D :D There's always one to throw a spanner in yer purple prose!

[Kerry's Partner]

I think that's totally brilliant. And I think she needs you to do that. What is it with "gifted" mares eh??????????

I'll let you into what some may think is a vulgar secret - but actually it's just my observation.

Kerry "winks" at those be they human (and a selected few) or horses (an even smaller bunch of selected individuals) who she has a bit" of regard for (just when she's in season of course)!!!!!!!!!!!!! Of course some of the humans don't know it's happened!!!!!!!!

[cvb]

Kerry's Partner

Yes she definitely needs to do this. We've come to an agreement whereby I make sure she gets time to be crazy every so often (a couple of times a week if I can, sometimes more, sometimes less), and she behaves when we are working.

Though the other day I took her in to lunge and she was so desperate to roll her knees started to go there and then ! Luckily there was no one around so I listened to what she was telling me, whipped off her tack and let her go for it !

But she just goes stir crazy otherwise. The paddocks are quite small here and there's not much to do when its snowy. In the summer there are slightly bigger fields but they just have electric fence around them and by the end of summer, she started going "visiting". The coat she had on to stop sun burn seemed to protect her against the fence :eek:

Are you getting to give Kerry "crazy time" now or is it still difficult ?

[Kerry's Partner]

No - it would be disastrous to Kerry's health. Anyway, when she's well and needs crazy time I have to ask Sue to visit - so that Kerry can have crazy time and be safe for herself as well as not injure me!!!!!!!! I know my own safety limits - I really understand about that and have a LOT to learn on behalf of Kerry.

Anyway, I still think it sounds like your mare has about the best owner a mare could have.

Sandra

[lamprellsarah]

people on here are always talking baout there horses go mad, like bucking and galloping around weither it's in a manege or in a field!!!

none of our horses ever do this they never really gallop around the field, if you let them off in the manege they just stand there. this isn't just my horse this is all of the yard a total of about 15 horses!!!
wonder why??
maybe because we have all year turnout, and it's huge??!! and most live out all year???

[Kerry's Partner]

Yep - but also, maybe, because they've never felt "permitted" to do so. Again this is a challenge but it does seem odd to me that "none" of them wish to do so. For example, I would have placed Kerry in exactly the same category a year ago, but I know differently now.

Sandra

[galadriel]

Originally posted by lamprellsarah
none of our horses ever do this they never really gallop around the field

It was a long time before I saw horses playing so...sometimes you just don't catch them at the right time of day, or something. I think just about any horse will play, just not all the time :)

I took care of a pony with the barn I rented; she was deeply depressed. Before I started at the place, any time any human interacted with her it was to chase her around 'till they caught her, throw tack on her (no grooming, picking feet), and have little kids make her run around--then she was thrown back out in the pasture. Suffice to say, her human interactions were somewhat lacking.

She was so submissive that the big horses all hated her (or something). They wouldn't play with her either. Possibly they thought somthing was wrong with her, because she was so emotionally wrought.

I worked with her for 6 months before I saw any real change--I gave her a stall and would go in just to pet her and give her a treat; I would take her out to groom her and then put her away. She finally stopped pulling back into the stall when I came by, and would even come up to me while loose.

But I was sure she was going to be all right the day I turned her out, and she ran off, and let out one little pony buck. She was starting to play :)

[Kerry's Partner]

It just goes to show doesn't it - that some of our equines are SO submissive it takes a brilliant human to help them return to an almost equine state again!!!!!!!!!!

[KarinUS]

It was a long time before I saw horses playing so...sometimes you just don't catch them at the right time of day, or something. I think just about any horse will play, just not all the time

I second galadriel's post. Nine times out of ten I get to the barn and DJ is grazing, standing under a tree or dozing. He definitely doesn't play all he time but he does play quite well when he feels like it. He seems to think it is his duty to free other horses of their apparel. In the winter he chase Penny by pulling her turnout blanket. If he stopped, she would turn around and call for him. Last Sunday I saw him rear and buck while playing with his buddy Mo and pulling each other's fly masks off.

Are you keeping her at home where you see her at different times of the day?

As for your first question: Anything I do with DJ, I try to do with love and respect for him. I have had him for a year and never lost my temper with him. I am sure some people would say that I am spoiling him, but I listen to him and respect his input. He has no fear of me, but he still does anything I ask.
And yes, he is a pleasant horse by nature and was already trained/ not green when I got him, but even with my spoiling him, he has only gotten more willing.

[Shiny McShine]

When we play with a horse, a human, a dog, a cat...anything, the line between safe and unsafe, fun and no fun, or any of the dynamics we may come across in play (or anything for that matter) is the ability to communicate effectively, to be able to share a common understanding. This is where love, respect and all the other things we value in others comes from.

Demanding respect or love doesn't work. Why? Because you cannot force someone or something to share an understanding with you because that is not sharing, it is not a two way process.
You have to ask and recieve, guide and be guided to realise how to best form a relationship. This is why people have trouble with horse, or dogs or people, or whatever they have poor relationships with. They do not understand the others point of view and therefore nor will the other side understand what they want.

Horses tend to loose out on the love and respect side of things because they are prey animals. The dog or the cat or the person gets a better deal from us in most cases because they are much more similar to us in their understanding. Horses tend to be treated from a person point of view. Alot of people approach a horse in the following way. "I have to teach him to respect me" or "I have to teach him to love me". The first goes in and expects the horse to listen only to him - "If he respected me he wouldn't act up like this". The second stands back and expects the horse to do all the work - "If he loves me he'll be nice, he won't kick me".

Both people here fail because they are only listening to one side of the story - their own, and only expecting the work to come from one side - the horse. If you want respect from your horse, show him respect by listening to what he has to say in his body language without assuming or expecting anything of him. If you want love from your horse then show him how much you care. Asking nothing of the horse is not love it is nothing and he will take it as that.

Anyway I think I have gone about as far out of the realms of what the rest of you were discussing as I will allow myself to so I will just step back from the keyboard...that is right....step away from the keyboard.......!!!

:D Some might say I had gone crazy :D

[Wally]

I don't know whether our horses look upon us with love/respect, it is hard to say.

If the school door is open and they have access to the yard they will all come up to see what we are doing and volunteer their services.

None of them are any trouble or give us anything to worry about behaviour wise. Kvikur did start acting up when saddled, so we bought him a new, made to measure saddle, he's happier now. Smacking him for biting when the girth was done up was not the answer! But we ALL love Kvikur and respect his views because he is such a decent bloke.......it is indeed a two way thing. Whether he loves us back I don't know.

I have never seen horses play so much as our bunch. There are always a pair up to something. You can see Andy or Iacs go round asking for a game, sometimes they'll be chased off ears back, other times the game starts and it gets rougher and rougher, some others might join in and the leg biting and rearing can be scary to watch. They sit down so the other guy cannot bite his legs, they kneel down too then go into a vertical rear from kneeling! Then thery all go bonkers round and round like a stampede. The mares join in this bit, but they never play like the boys do, they love the "round the houses" gallop. Some days I am surprised anyone has any shoes left on at all.

I strongly beleive this is why we have so few problems when we come to work with our guys, they have got the playing done, they are relaxed and happy and well balanced. Even the stallion is out with some boys who like to play, he will come in and work quietly under saddle because he has had time to play.......Hákon looks like a much loved Teddy at the moment, Tribble has pulled out a great deal of his fur! Bald but very, very happy!:D

[Esther.D]

Love and respect go hand in hand, you cannot have one without the other, but don't demand either.

I think Wally about sums it up with that.

There are different levels of love and respect - for instance Mac has never allowed me to tell him what to do.. he was gelded very late and is very stalliony - he respects me enough to allow a discussion about what we are going to do. I know he respects me because he won't let anyone else drive him - he objects to them bossing him about and becomes rooted to the spot and cannot be pushed, pulled or cajoled until I take the reins again- but he drives well with me providing I don't throw my weight around and boss him too much - but on the other hand I don't let him throw his weight around too much either. He and I each have our rules and we form a partnership but neither is dominant. We have worked like this very successfully for 10 years and he is still one of my favourite ponies to drive.

I took care of a pony with the barn I rented; she was deeply depressed. Before I started at the place, any time any human interacted with her it was to chase her around 'till they caught her, throw tack on her (no grooming, picking feet), and have little kids make her run around--then she was thrown back out in the pasture. Suffice to say, her human interactions were somewhat lacking. Galadriel - you could be describing Rupert there!!! Except he responded by bullying and becoming 'nasty' instead of being submissive.
As you know he is finally coming out of himself as a sweet sensitive pony who was deeply distressed but it is going to take a good while of gentle re-education on the ground before he settles. I mean re-education not to fear people and get upset...not to go into himself and expect punishment as he does at the moment. He is the only pony I have met who hyper-ventilates and pants and grinds his teeth with anxiety when you ask him to do anything (even just to take a few steps forward) - but all this was hidden below the inexpressive, bully exterior....I think he must have been very scared and I'm fast coming to the conclusion that this 'difficult pony' (who terrorised his young owner into selling him) was actually very depressed and confused
:( He is becoming positively over demonstrative as he is coming out of himself:D He is like a big puppy:)

[galadriel]

Originally posted by Esther.D
He is becoming positively over demonstrative as he is coming out of himself:D He is like a big puppy:)

Daisy got to the point where she would follow me around...would whuffle into my hand and nuzzle it...would whinny when I'd show up :) It is possible to help them out of such a slump. I was so glad :)

It's amazing what it takes to actually *break* an animal's spirit. Aside from Daisy-pony, I also do the dog rescue thing; I've had so many dogs with wounded souls come through my hands, and despite their terrible treatment, they've all been able to recover and be normal dogs again (minus one who we're still working on, but he's going to be a tough job--I have hope). I can't help but be in awe at the resiliency.

[lamprellsarah]

the mares are the least likely to play in fact never have they anyone esle noticed that????

sometimes the geldings have a wrestle, in fact one of ours has lost most of the top of his tail due to another gelding hanging off of it!!

Chancer likes her space, she often grazes on her own, she won't groom another horse nor will she let another horse near enoguh to do it!!! she pins back her ears and makes faces even when they are at a good distance!!!
but she allows people into her comfort zone easily!!!