Backing up

[Zoey]

Asking for advice here. We have a pony in the rescue centre who has been with us for about a month. Just today he completely backed up on me to go to kick me and when I shouted at him and went to walk round to the other side, he just followed me with this evil look in his eye. I've had this before but when I have shouted they have just stopped it and admitted defeat. This pony was definitely gonna get me for all he was worth. I don't want to have to tempt him with treats to catch him as there are lots of other horses out which would attract trouble. Any suggestions on how to deal with a horse who turns it back on you?

[Catherine]

Ever tried a water pistol?!

I have only ever had to resort to this with one determined stallion, and it worked a treat. As soon as I was presented with a bum which obviously meant to come closer or turn into a pair of heels, it got a squirt of cold water, which meant it shot out of the firing line jolly quickly. You don't have to get very close either, so don't run the risk of getting a thump back.

It's the surprise/shock value that I was aiming for, rather than any infliction of pain, which I ALWAYS try to avoid.

[bren]

Great idea! What you want to do is"consequences", make the habit he has unpleasant to him...he will start to think " hey everytime I turn to kick something bad happens...maybe I should stop it" I know this oversymplifies it but... :)...also do something pleasant to him...can he be handfed? Is he ok when you are out of the pen? Sounds like he might have gotten used to a beating when anyone came into his space. Do you have time to just sit near him? Sounds like he needs some mental TLC.

[Zoey]

Hi Catherine and Bren

That water pistol idea is something I may try. He is a very sure of himself, little character - very secure and he does get quite a lot of attention which he loves believe it or not, despite this latest `thing'. I have the feeling with this one that he would just stand there and not be bothered about the water pistol (he is like that) but I will certainly give it a go!
We have had others in who are much bigger than him (he is only a Shetland X)and very quick with the back legs in this situation. I have got a feeling that something like the water pistol would work with them but I may not catch them full stop! It's all trial and error I suppose. Thanx so much for the advice :D

[calamity_jane]

TO:KICKING PONY

I WAS RAISED IN SOUTHERN NEW MEXICO IN THE USA. HAVING BEEN IN THE HORSE BUSINESS MY ENTIRE ADULT LIFE, I MIGHT HAVE A FEW HELPFUL HINTS TO HELP YOUR UNRULY HORSES.

A NUMBER OF YEARS AGO AFTER MY FIRST YEAR OF COLLEGE, I SUMMERED IN GREAT FALLS MONTANA. MONTANA, THE LAND OF BIG SKIES AND WILD HORSES, GAVE ME A CHANCE TO WATCH WILD HORSES INTERACT WITH EACH OTHER.

WORKING WITH THE BLM (BUREAU OF LAND MANAGEMENT) I WAS ENGAGED IN COUNTING, AND ALSO MONITORING THE MOVEMENTS OF THESE BEAUTIFUL ANIMALS. I WAS IMPRESSED WITH THE CONSISTENCY WITH WHICH MARES OR STALLIONS DISCIPLINED THEIR YOUNG. HORSES NEVER FAIL TO CORRECT OR OTHERWISE TUNE UP A SUBORDINATE ANIMAL. HORSES OPERATE FROM A PECKING ORDER AND IT IS A CONSTANT STRUGGLE THROUGHOUT A HORSES LIFE TO ESTABLISH AND THEN MAINTAIN THEIR POSITION IN THE HERD. SO INGRAINED IS THIS NATURAL INSTINCT THAT THEY WILL ENDEAVOR TO ESTABLISH IT WHERE-EVER, AND WHEN-EVER POSSIBLE. THIS INCLUDES HUMANS. ANOTHER FACT IS THAT HORSES DON'T COMPREHEND THE CONCEPT OF BIG AND LITTLE. IN OTHER WORDS, A SHETLAND WILL STAND UP TO A SHIRE(DRAFT HORSE) IF THE LATTER INFRINGES ON ITS TERRITORY, NEVER COMPREHENDING UNTIL AFTERWARDS THAT HE IS PHYSICALLY INCAPABLE OF DEFEATING HIM. AFTERWARDS HE WILL YIELD TO THE LARGER HORSE THROUGH RESPECT, BUT SIZE DIFFERENCE WILL NEVER ENTER INTO IT.

NOW, HOW DO YOU FIX THIS DILEMMA. AS I MENTIONED BEFORE, WILD HORSES REINFORCE THERE DOMINATION THROUGH INTIMIDATION, NEVER MISSING AN OPPORTUNITY TO CHALLENGE AN NTERLOPER. AND THIS IS THE SECRET TO CONTROLLING YOUR PONY. ABUSE IS NEVER THE ANSWER, BUT SQUIRT GUNS ISN'T EITHER.

17YRS. HUNDREDS OF HORSES, FROM RACE BRED TO RANCH BRED HAS TAUGHT ME THAT THE HUMAN HAS TO BE THE DOMINANT ANIMAL IN THE EQUATION. AND THAT HUMANS MUST USE INTIMIDATION CONSISTENT WITH WHAT THE HORSE RECOGNIZES AS
DOMINATION OTHERWISE IT IS TO NO AVAIL.THERE ARE VERY FEW SQUIRT GUNS IN THE ANIMAL WORLD!

SPACE WON'T PERMIT MORE-STAYED TUNED AT A LATER DATE.

[cynthia]

ugh. calamity jane - please, please, PLEASE do not do this!! typing in all caps is just about the worst form of bad netiquette imaginable! i'm sure you didn't mean to do it, but it's considered VERY bad manners on the 'net! :rolleyes: i for one don't even bother reading anything that is typed this way; it hurts my eyes.

please be careful and remember to check that caps lock key.

thanks (just thought i'd post this in case you didn't get a chance to read the "Posting Guidelines" and whatnot... sorry if i'm repeating what you have already read).

-cyn

[This message has been edited by cynthia (edited 13 January 2000).]

[calamity_jane]

cynthia
I'm a horse person not a net person. But sorry about the caps.
calamity

[Farm_Girl5]

Calamity Jane: I must say that I disagree...
You don't want to become OVER dominant of your horse so that it is scared of you... Sure you must be "higher" in the pecking order but not WAY higher.. so that is it scared of you.
Also said there aren't squirt bottles in the animal world... horses weren't taught to carry a rider either until they were domesticated. So whatever works.. we have changed the use of the horse and with changing this you also need to change the approach of things...
ok I'm not sure if this makes sense and I'm probably wrong but this is what I think...
Ciao
Kristy

[Farm_Girl5]

Zoey:
After writing that I completely forgot to write to you! LOL. Oops!
I was in a horse chat last night and this came up and a GOOD suggestion that came up... carry a pocket full of SMALL pebbles. When he turns away from you throw one so it hits him on the backside (not HARD) just so he gets a suprise (not shocked) and when he turns to look at you praise him ALOT! Then if he turns away again throw another...
Why is it that he does this? Is it because everytime you go out you catch him and make him work??? Maybe just going out in the paddock every so often just to say "hi" might stop this....
Hope this helped
Kristy

[calamity_jane]

Kristy-

The feelings you expressed about "dominance" are typical reactions from inexperience. I'm not trying to be offensive, but sometimes being blunt is a good way to "cut to the chase". Many years of correcting problems in horses has driven home the point that if you cannot think like a horse, you can never get positive results. Thinking like a horse entails many, many, years of experience. It is an instinctive thing. A horse "kicking" at you is a sign of no respect. Horses will quickly find that "squirt guns" are nothing to be feared. Please don't use human reasoning on animals. I NEVER hit or smack horses with my hand or any other device. A horse cannot relate to "hands". I use "body language" that a horse has learned to respond too, from the time it was born. "Humanizing" horses is one of the biggest mistakes novice horseman can make. Romanticizing horses and their traits has been the main source of my corrective training business. Horses respect authority, in the wild and in the round pen. If you will take my advice, your training will go much smoother.
Calamity Jane-

[Farm_Girl5]

I'm sorry for being wrong...
It's the only way I'll learn. This is just what I have read and yes I am inexperienced BUT I AM trying to learn all the time....
Kristy

[Horselover2]

Calamity, I totally agree that the horse or any other animal for that matter should not be "humanized", and to study their behavior/interaction with one another is one of the best ways to learn to "speak" their language. But these are generalizations and do not address Farmgirl's specific problem of the horse turning her butt toward her. What is your advice for that? (If it were me, I would take a crop w/me and catch the little dear on her hocks...am curious as to what you would do)

[Horselover2]

Ooops, just realized it was Zoey with the horse butt situation!!!! Hey Zoey, my advice could maybe get you a kick in the head too, it just kind of depends on the moment! lol!!

[Allie]

Calamity- if you use only natural discipline methods, why are you so against contact? Horses in the wild use physical contact every day to discipline unruly members of the herd. In my humble opinion, a human smacking a horse is much like a horse kicking another horse. It lets them know that your space has been invaded in a way that leaves no doubt as to it's meaning. Horses don't kick by accident, and neither do owners hit by accident. As long as people don't abuse this power, it will serve as a means of re-establishing rpect on the horse's part.

I am saying this through experience. When I bought my mare 2 years ago, she had been handled very little, and had little respect for humans. She would bite you in the rear end as you picked out her hoofs, bite when you even came near her with a saddle (the saddle fit- it had been checked), and just in general crowd your space. When she tried to bite me, I smacked her on the nose and continued what I was doing. She continued to challenge my authority for a week or so, and then realized that I was not going to let her win. She now gives her hoof willingly when I tap her fetlock and kiss, and holds it up until I am done. Smacking and other physical contact does have it's place in horse trainig, whether you like it or not. I am a little surprised that for someone who purports to train with 'natural body language' you have not noticed that biting, kicking, and other forms of physical contact are prevalent in horse society.

Kristy- by any chance are you the Kristy who volunteers at Winding River? If not, I'm sorry, you just kind of sounded like her.

Allie

[Janneke]

Hello everybody.
I may sound dumb now, but what exactly was the advise calamity jane gave? Everybody seems to know but I really can't make it out!
:confused:

I know I had a problem once with a horse that tried to kick me when I entered his box. He'd already almost hit another girl and she got scared :eek:which didn't really help in solving the problem. What I did was the moment he raised his hindleg (I came in saying "let's go, come on" which is telling him I'm going to take him with me, and let's him know it's me, I always say that) I gave him a smack on his buut with the halterrope. He immidiatly understood I wasn't gonna take any 'jokes' and nothing further happened.

My point in this story would be, never let it come so far that the horse has you pinned. Act before it becomes dangerous, although that might be difficult when you're cleaning the far end of the box.

I really hope my explanation made sense, if not please tell me and I'll try to do better!
Love, Janneke

[This message has been edited by Janneke (edited 15 January 2000).]

[Farm_Girl5]

Allie: No I'm not that Kristy. I'm in Australia...
Looks like there's 2 Kristy's that sound alike! I hope she's nice! <G>

Kristy (In Australia!)

[Zoey]

OMG - I have had a few days off and sat reading all the replies with my mouth hanging open!

I am also not sure what advice Calamity was giving relating to this specific case. I think it was more of a statement.

I am grateful to everyone who has given me some advice and stories of experience they have had.

This shetland did the same thing this morning - it was the first time he had done it since I first wrote asking for advice. I had him tied up with a haynet to amuse and was giving him a groom. My friend's 10 year old daughter asked if she could help and started to groom him. She walked 10 feet away from him to get another brush and walked back (where he could see her clearly) and he turned to kick her - she is confident and said his name firmly and tried to walk towards him again - he just followed her as if to kick. I walked towards him and said his name firmly as if to tell him off and he looked at me like he hadn't done a thing! I picked up a brush and started grooming him confidently and he didn't do a thing wrong. As soon as faye (10 yr old) went to groom him - he did it again.
I think that when there was a choice between respecting her and me, he chose me (because I am the biggest?).
Farmgirl - he does get a lot of attention and I think maybe he's been getting a bit too much freedom. With him being a shetland we let him wander around when we are mucking out and he could be taking advantage of this.
Allie - I agree about it's natural for `contact'. He would have got a boot in the backside off the other horses if he had done it to them.
Thanx again all!

[calamity_jane]

In reply to using natual training methods with horses and not smacking them. my answer is this. I truly believe in a round- pen and lots of ground work. If the kicking pony was mine I would take him to the round pen and lunge him in a circle until he stopped, faced me and when I walk up to him, if he turned his butt to me he'd go some more until he started to get tired. Horses that get tired, start thinking. you can establish dominance in this manner. it may take twenty or thirty minutes to get the little guy tired but he WILL stop and face you. if you do this enough he will eventually stop and start to walk toward you when you drop your lunge whip. I will take several trips to the round pen for this to work. Horses that are spoiled like the pony have to start with the basic A,B,C's.If you go a to d without b or c there will be some holes in his understanding. (refer to building a building in previous message.)
calamity jane-

[Zoey]

Calamity
How would you catch the pony in order to lunge it without being kicked?

[calamity_jane]

zoey
I am finding it a little difficult to put your answer in a nutshell. Perhaps relating a few experiences will help you. Every horse is different, every situation requiring a little variation. As I mentioned before, I was born and raised in the south border area of New Mexico. 25 miles to the south of my house is old Mexico. Some of the finest "Caballeros" in the world are from the Mexican State of Chihuahua, right across the border. A good friend of mine's family has ranched this badland country for generations. On one occasion, I had the opportunity to watch him work some of his horses and mules. Now only a few of them were "broke". But as they came into the round pen, each and every one of them put their tail to the fence, and absolutely would not turn around. To halter them was simple (although they fidgeted and ducked their heads,) they would not turn their tail to you. For generations, Jose and his fathers before him trained their horses with a yucca stalk!! (Yucca is the state flower of New Mexico, and is very common in these parts.) From the time the animals are weaned Jose prods them with a yucca stalk. When they face him, he drops the stalk and pets there head, if they spin around he keeps at it consistently until they find it very uncomfortable to do anything but face him. Two things; 1)Do not hit the horse with the stalk.2) Remain calm and patient until you get the desired results. As I mentioned before, NEVER hit or abuse a horse, but a horse or mule will find it difficult to kick you, six feet away.They will find it very uncomfortable not to do what you desire. Try it, it might be the answer.

Calamity Jane-