new horse with issues

[nakedescapee]

Hi. Three weeks ago, I got a 20 year old Standardbred mare from a rescue. She is great on the ground and I have ridden her a couple of times but only at a walk. Part of it is my confidence level but she also hasn't been ridden regularly in years. She was a pacer on the track then a brood mare. She hasn't really adjusted to having a bit in her mouth again and throws her head a lot. She is a little girthy but not too bad. When I ask for a trot, she jumps forward... not a smooth transition. Perhaps I am expecting too much, too soon?

Also, when the ferrier came out, she got more and more nerveous as he worked. He only got one front foot done and when he tried to stroke her face and talk to her she went ballistic. I think she must have been twitched pretty severly in the past. Any ideas on how I can work with her on this? Perhaps a dose of calm-x? Her other front foot is very long and beginning to crack... it has got to be done soon.

Any and all advice is welcome!

Ginny

[galadriel]

Lots of issues! So, lots of questions:

Feet:
Does she let you handle her feet? Is it having her feet handled, or having the farrier work on her?

Is there any chance she has a male phobia?

If she will let you handle her feet calmly, then you might want to try rasping her hooves just a little each time you pick them. (If she simply has problems with *anyone* handling her feet, your approach should be a little different, of course.)

Do this slowly. If it is the rasp which bothers her, then don't even use it until she is comfortable with you just holding it. Pick up the hoof, pick up the rasp, touch it to her foot, tell her "good girl," and put the rasp away and the hoof down. Once she is comfortable with that (probably one hoof-picking session 2x a day for a week, at least), then rasp the hoof just a little. You don't need to be an expert farrier; you're not really trying to shape the hoof, just to get her adjusted to the use of the rasp. If one front foot is much longer than the other, she may be a little sore in the feet & legs; be patient with her.

Don't ever make her nervous; stop while she is still calm. If she looks like she's getting tense, back up to where she is more comfortable, pet her and stop. For example, if she gets upset if you rasp a few times, put the rasp away, pick out her hoof, and hold it a moment until she relaxes again.

Eventually you will be able to rasp a bit at each hoof as you handle it, and hopefully she will tolerate the farrier much more calmly.

Riding:
The bit my in fact be a problem; have you hd her teeth checked? If her teeth are fine, then you will probably want to experiement with bits until you find one to which she doesn't object furiously. The Happy Mouth bits are pretty good--or you might just want to use a bitless or hackamore.

If it's only been three weeks, I would continue to ride only at a walk for quite some time (probably at least 6 weeks). Long, slow walks will help her gain the muscle she needs just to carry you. She was harness raced--she may never have been *ridden* before! Also, she was likely punished for trotting; if you want her to trot and not to pace, you will have to be sure that she understands it's okay.

The best way to help her to understand the commands you will give her under saddle, is to teach them on the ground first. I suspect she may not know any. Harness racers aren't ridden at all. Learning to be ridden can be a shock to them; someone sits on their back (unaccustomed weight), uses the reins MUCH differently than a driver does, and also expects them to respond from a squeeze to the ribs--it's very different.

Even if she does know a little, make no assumptions--start all over. If she already knows one command, great; move on. If not, won't it be much better to know this BEFORE you need to use it from the saddle?

With a former harness racer, I would do it this way:
Tack her up like you are going to ride; put on your saddle and bridle. I recommend using the saddle even for ground work because she may have never experienced wearing one! Now instead of riding, lead her around, using your body language and reins to back up voice commands.

For example: To teach her that "walk" means to well, to walk, you lead her and say "walk. walk. good girl. walk." When you want her to stop, say "whoa," use the reins to ask for a halt, and you also stop. If she wants to move before you are ready, cue the "whoa" again (use reins & voice). When you are ready for her to move on, say "walk," then walk on and ask her to follow you.

Once she has those down, you can ask her to "trot" from a walk. Say "trot," begin to jog a little, and ask her to follow you at increased speed. After a moment, say "walk" and ask her to slow again to a walk (and stop jogging).

This is very like teaching ground manners (and will probably at least have a positive impact on her manners ;) ) except that once she knows whoa, walk and trot, you will want to transfer the concept to riding. By the way, I still do this with my horses when I am leading them, when we are cooling out after a ride; I expect them to whoa, walk, trot, and back from voice alone. They can go from halt to trot and back to halt, just from my voice.

It may take a few sessions for it to "click" with her, once you start transferring the idea to riding. As I said, Standardbred racers are completely unfamiliar with leg aids. What may work best is for you to ride, but with someone "leading" her; this will mimic the ground training sessions.

You (the rider) give a voice command, and she responds. Reward her; now give the voice command along with a squeeze of the calves. Once you are pretty sure she understands that the voice commands are the same as the leg commands, then you can start using them without a "leader."

It sounds like she is a pretty sweet, willing girl; being brought back into work--very unfamiliar work, at that--at such a late age, with so little protest. I bet she's a gem.

[galadriel]

By the way, glancing at her picture again, she looks like she's got a worm-belly. I figure you've probably dewormed her, but if it has been a while since she has been dewormed, you might want to ask your vet if he reommends anything else ( a double dose of wormer, two different kinds of wormer, etc). Worming a VERY wormy horse can be difficult, just because you have so many worms to get rid of.

Once she's rid of all the worms, though, she'll start to lose those ribs ;) and a little more padding over her ribs & back will help the saddle be a little more comfortable to her.

[Big Ears]

You also have to remember that she has been trained to pace with her head held high, with a strap from between the ears to the saddle, or harness, and to balance on her mouth to get up to high speed.

So she will automatically put her head in the air and run into the contact - at her age it is probably unreasonable to expect miracles from her.

Could you try one of the myler bits on her, or perhaps a bitless bridle if you have good hands as they are severe. How are her teeth?

With the farrier, I would just spend lots and lots of time handling her feet yourself, and introduce Farriers Formula to her diet to build up the feet. Just keep picking them up and handling them.

To be fair, she is really coming up to retirement age rather than launching into a new career, and if she has had a hard life, (trotting pacing horses in the UK tend to have a hard time) then her whole skeleton could be hurting and you might have to do a lot of physio on her back to correct the accentuated way she has been taught/forced to carry herself, as it is likely to have put pressure all along her back.

Good luck with her.

[nakedescapee]

Thanks Galdriel... you have such a good grasp of "horse-stuff" and give great advice!

Yes, the feet thing needs work. It may be a male phobia. As I haven't seen her handled by any men other than the ferrier since having her, I just don't know. She is great about letting me pick out her feet... very relaxed and stands still. Your suggestion about gently using a rasp sounds right on. Maybe I'll try to just tap on her hoof with the pick first to test for a reaction.

She (Homie) is very gentle, will walk on a loose lead, comes when called and loves to have her neck scratched. :p She respects your space but is so big (16.2 hh) and seems not to know how big she really is. (Though she has never stepped on me.)

Re: the ride. I have been lunging her tacked up with full-cheek snaffle on a halter/bridle. She will walk/trot(long-stride)/canter (up-hill) and stop on voice commands on the lung line... doesn't buck or freak-out at all.

When I ride her I found the full cheek snaffle gives me more control than with the regular snaffle. I have considered trying a Happy-mouth and a hackamore but I am afraid the hackamore might not allow the control I need (my lack of confidence.) I wanted to give her a chance to try a regular bit for a while before trying another one. I have been told that track pacers have their tongues tied so she may not know what to do with her tongue when the bit is in her mouth. I also was told that head throwing is a "standardbred thing" that they learn from each other at the track. What is your take on this?

My legs and seat aren't what they used to be, but she does seem to respond better to leg aids than to the bit... not bad for a horse that hasn't been ridden a lot! She must have had some formal training for riding somewhere along the way.

Perhaps the riding issue is really just my lack of confidence. I will take your advice about leading her tacked up and giving voice commands. That sounds like just the trick. I will probably need to do this with Roulette too before hopping on for a ride since the baby was born... Great Advice, as always! :D

Homie is a sweety and seems to be smart. I think after we better establish a mutual trust, we will both settle down.

Maybe I'll also find an instructor to come out for an evaluation and lesson... too bad you aren't closer! ;)

Ginny

[nakedescapee]

Hi Big Ears (funny name!)... thanks for the advice and input! :)

It sounds like you have a lot if experience with pacers. She is really at retirement age and she will only be used for very light riding, trails, etc. Though she is built like a brick house!

This is my 2nd rescue horse and I am learning more and more about the special considerations of owning one. They are very special.

I didn't know a bitless bridle is severe... I would have thought the opposite. I can't say if my hands are severe or not, though I don't think so... I am returning to riding after 25+ years off.

I appreciate your take on the fact that her whole body may be stiff and brittle from racing... I hadn't thought about that. If foaling season ever ends, I will have the vet out for a more comprehensive evaluation and discuss that with him, along with the worm-belly mentioned by Galadreil... another thing I didn't think of.

Thanks to you both for the excellent observations! :D

Ginny

[Big Ears]

Many many years ago I rode a pacer called Adaxie - German bred grey around 16'2" - she would automatically put her head up and you balanced her on your hands so that she did not break stride.

Also having been a brood mare, her muscles have changed again, so you could find that she has a lot of old damage on her skeleton.

A hackamore is actually, in the wrong hands, a much more severe bit than an ordinary bit as it cuts off the breathing and can cause injury to the face if used brutally, so you need to be confident enough to sit there and leave it very loose and only take up the contact when you need it.

Big Ears is the name of our sadly now deceased donkey - a real star in the orbit. We bought her off the beach and had her for a wonderful 8 years, but sadly she died of colic, despite surgery. The equine world lost a huge personality as all 9hh of her was sheer chutzpah.

Good luck with your girl - I am sure if you keep making allowances for the fact that you are having to untrain what she has learnt that she will improve.

[galadriel]

A bitless is not the same thing as a hackamore; a hackamore can be severe, but so can a bit. The hackamore works by pressure on the nose and jaw instead of the mouth; it's all a matter of perspective. I find riding ex-racers in a halter and leadrope to be my own best bet--they don't try to brace against the bit that way. (I ride dressage as part of 3-phase, so my horses have to be trained to go on a bit...but I think I could do just about anything with them in a halter & leadrope.)

If she has actual trouble with the bit in her mouth (*have* you had her teeth checked, btw?), you would probably be fine in a hackamore--or a bitless. Particularly if, as you said, she responds well to leg cues.

If you can get a squealing stop on the ground from a "whoa," and then translate it into riding also, I bet that would help you feel better about whatever kind of bridle you use, wouldn't it? With the groundwork routine I described, I taught a pretty hyper ex-racer to come to a total and complete stop when she hears "whoa"--no matter how fast she was going. I bet Homie could learn it too, and then you wouldn't have to worry about being able to stop her without a bit.

The "learning head-throwing" sounds illogical to me. I would suspect that many STB's off the track throw their heads because they all have a similar reason (unhappiness with the bit, bridle, teeth, or some such). I don't think horses learn habits like head-throwing from each other. Pretty much if a horse throws his head I try to change things until he stops, usually starting with teeth and moving on to the bit.

By the way, another cause of head-throwing that doesn't occur to a lot of people is the browband being too tight. It should have some slack in it--otherwise it can be annoying, and a real cause of head-tossing.
http://www.newrider.com/Library/Riding_Tips/fitbridle5.jpg
http://www.newrider.com/Library/Riding_Tips/fitting_bridle.html

[nakedescapee]

Thanks Galdriel. I haven't had her teeth checked yet but she isn't dropping grain so I haven't suspected anything. I didn't know about the head band being too tight. I will check it... thanks for the pic.

You are right about riding with just a halter and leadrope. I used to do it all the time as a teen without hesitation. A lot is riding on my seat (no pun intended) and my confidence.

I will try out the ground work routine you suggested and that will help a lot, I'm sure. And I have the dentist coming out next month anyway for Roulette so I'll see if he can do them both. Hopefully, Homie will stand better for him than the ferrier. She took her wormer just fine but, as with the ferrier, the basics that I can do with her is not necessarily what she will let someone else take to the next level... we'll see.

Thanks for all the help.

Ginny

[galadriel]

Glad I could help :)

There's a lot you can do to de-sensitize her to the vet, too, you know.

You can tap her on the neck where he'll be sticking any needles (I usually do a tap-tap-tap-stick when giving my own injections). You can ask her to open her mouth and grab her tongue, and pull it to the side. You can take her upper & lower jaw and gently move them side-to-side against each other--this is a halfway decent check to see if the teeth are meeting well, too. If the teeth don't moove smoothly you *know* you've got roughness back there.

With the way Homie looks, and her age, I'd bet she has some tooth issues. (along with the worm issues I also suspected) She's a little ribby and has a potbelly...both of those can be cleared right up. You can get an older horse to look fat & sassy & beautiful. I have no doubts that she will look that way soon enough. :) With a little bit of routine healthcare a some light work, I bet she'll put on weight--and some muscle, too--in no time.

By the way, I love her color. :D This is my baby:
http://www.galadriel.shaftnet.org/horses/id-photos/m-kat-face.jpghttp://www.galadriel.shaftnet.org/horses/kat-jan-2003/s-kat-right3.jpg

[ilovemisty]

why don't u try Monty Roberts join up? that will take care of the farrier part.... just take ** tiem

[nakedescapee]

Galadriel, she looks so good! What a gorgeous color... so rich and deep... beautiful. I hope that mine will eventually look as good.

I will work on the things you mentioned. The more desensatizing I can do, the better. Hopefully, with some time, she will begin to trust me enough to know that I would never let anyone hurt her.

ILoveMisty: Thanks for the Monty Roberts suggestion, I will look into it.

Ginny

[helen03]

My horse had never had his feet picked up and never seen a man when i got him at the age of 5!
so he had a great problem with the farrier, although he would let me pick his feet up and do what i wanted with them , he wouldn't let the farrier and he desprately needed a set of shoes. My vet suggested to me 'sedezine' a sedetive paste that you administer yourself.More effective than sedetive pills , it definatley takes the fight out of your horse , but they stay alert enough to know what's going on.I used this for the first 3 sets of shoes abu had and now he doesn't need it any more.It cost's about £12 and you have to order it through your vet, but it definately does work!

[nakedescapee]

Hi Helen03.

The sedezine sounds like a great idea. My horse, Homie, just needs to learn that the ferrier won't hurt her and that she will be more comfortable with her feet in good shape... if she would just stand still for a minute! Along with tapping and gently rasping to show her it won't hurt, this could be another tool. I will get with my vet and see if it is an option for Homie. Thanks!

Ginny

[galadriel]

Be very, very careful with sedatives/tanquilizers. If your horse gets excited (scared) while tranquilized, he can become a raging drunk: 1000 pounds of total lack of reason or coordination.

I'd stick with teaching the horse that the farrier is okay *without* drugs--but if your vet is willing to recommend and prescribe something, then it will probably be all right.

[virtuallyhorses]

Hmmm I want to say this as nicely as I can but you got her as a rescue case, so its only logical that she's got a lot of issues and probably you haven't even seen them all yet. If you are not a very experienced horse person please get some help, or see if the rescue can rehome her. You need a schoolmaster if you are new to horses, not a horse that needs a lot of help and expertise.

Standardbreds are a breed that has a very consistant temperament and if they've raced then they are usually very easy to shoe, float etc because they've done it so often. They are also used to bridles, bits and all sorts of gear so it takes a lot to upset them - although if she's been a broodmare there's been a long gap from her racing career.

It sounds like you've made a good guess that she's been severely twitched - abuse when being shoed is the only reason I can think of for this sort of behaviour. STB's are a pretty stoic lot (generally) and will put up with an awful lot before they decide to go ballistic. At 20 your girl has had a long time to be 'hurt' and it may take a very long time to convince her its not going to happen again (perhaps you will never fully gain her confidence).

If you continue with her, start with groundwork and spend a long time gaining her confidence. You say she is 'great on the ground' but then can't shoe her or touch her face - so that's two area's where she's not great. You could put a saddle and bridle on her but I'd stay off her back until you can handle her (everywhere) safely from the ground.

[nakedescapee]

Thank you for your reply, virtuallyhorses. I am not completely new to horses. I rode from childhood into my early 20s. I have recently come back to it after 25+ years (mid life crisis ;) ) I have probably forgotten more than I ever knew!

Homie went to the adoption program because it was time for her to retire from being a brood mare and the owner didn't want her to go to auction so she isn't really what I think of as a rescue horse. I can't send Homie back to the adoption program without forfeiting my adoption fee, as I got her as a replacement for a horse that was completely insane, and they only allow one exchange per adoption. Besides, I really like her and believe she will be fine once we get past the hard stuff.

She doesn't kick or bite and I can touch every part of her body without her even so much as lifting a leg to threaten. I can rub her face without a problem, (she loves to be scratched on her jaws and ears, and under her chin) it was just when the ferrier tried to pet her face that she freaked out.

She is a very nice ride, calm and willing, especially considering she had not been ridden very much before.

She does have some issues... old school training techniques... but no more than a lot of other horses. It will just take time and patience and all the advice I can get!


Galadriel: Once again, something I had not considered. Thanks! The last thing I need is a 1200 lb. raging drunk! :eek:

BTW, I tried the rasp on Homie yesterday... she didn't blink! I couldn't believe it! That leaves a couple of possibilities... either she is afraid of men in general or just the ferrier. I honestly believe it is the whole ferrier thing.

However, I made it part of our regular grooming time so perhaps I'll try to get out there early next time and start grooming her to get her relaxed and into the groove before the ferrier comes.

Something else I tried was to cross-tie her in the barn. I could see the fear in her eyes and she bolted out several times (not tied of course.) She would come to me in the paddock and we would do it again. Finally, she stood still for a minute, and I praised her and walked her calmly out. After a few more tries, I actually got the ties on her for a minute. She was terrified... just knew something horrible was about to happen. (poor Homie) After a few successes, we came out calmly and I gave her lots of praise and grain... I was so proud of her for being so brave!

Ginny

[helencheshire]

Has she been vetted atall recently? A horse I know is terrible with the farrier due to a pelvic injury..It actually uncomfortable for her to lift her back legs, as high as the farrier needs to lift them..and hence she is upset when she even sees the farrier , in anticpation ..

Just a thought

Helen xx

[nakedescapee]

Thanks helencheshire. The vet has seen her and she seems to be fine. If there is an old injury, then I am not aware of it. She lets me pick up all 4 feet to clean them without showing any signs of distress.

[Big Ears]

I had a horse who was a complete angel in every way but the first time we tried to shoe him, we could get them on front feet but not hind feet.

Farrier said horse wasn't being awkward but was probably in pain - this was a racehorse w ho was used to being shoed.

When we got vet and physio out we foudn horse was very tight in hind quarters and physically couldn't hold legs out behind him for shoeing without pain so couldn't stand still.

Lots of physio, stretching and general rest improved situation. So she could be tight on top of quarters and down hamstrings and unable to pull legs forwards and stretch out behind her.

[nakedescapee]

Thanks Big Ears.

I had not considered that. I will talk to the ferrier and the vet and see what they think. I hate to think she could be in pain. The ferrier tends to take the leg to the outside to hold it, maybe it is putting too much pressure on her shoulder.

Ginny

[virtuallyhorses]

Cheers Ginny, I wasn't sure about the 'rescue' bit or your experience so I hope you didn't take offence at the 'IFs' in my comments, they were meant to be for safety's sake not criticisms of your horsemanship :)

The pain track may be a very good one to investigate - perhaps even looking for arthritis? If the farrier isn't allowing for her age and expecting her to be more limber than she is this could indeed explain her dislike for him. Just another tangent - but perhaps her eyesight is a little clouded too - thinking about a farrier being bent down and then standing up and reaching for her face - perhaps she was just mellowed out and then it suddenly came to her attention that there was something coming for her....

[nakedescapee]

Hi virtuallyhorses. No offense taken... if you want to offend me, you'll have to do better than that! :p

The more I think about it, it could very well be a pain issue. Her eye-sight is fine. My other rescue horse is missing an eye, so I have some familiarity with how they act when they don't see well. When the ferrier reached for her face, there was fear in her eyes... she wasn't startled.

After reading these posts, consulting other folks and thinking about it, I have the impression her shoulders bother her from her racing days (maybe why she stopped) and, when she reacted to that in the past, she was twitched.

I can see a long road ahead, but she is such a sweety, it will be worth it. :D

Thanks for the input!

Ginny

[virtuallyhorses]

That at least should be relatively easy to test - it'll probably be the reach forward and up onto the stand, when the farrier goes to rasp off any dishes or to tidy up the clenches that gets her.

So you could tell your farrier a little white lie and say that she has a shoulder problem (even if its not been diagnosed as that yet) and ask him not to lift\extend it much. Trust me he CAN work without the stand and sympathetically to the horse's needs - it just takes a little more bending but any farrier that has to handle little ponies will be used to that.

If he does this and she's ok then you know its not something about the farrier personally, just a pain issue.

You might also like to try the services of an equine physio to see if you can pinpoint the problem and perhaps provide some relief - good luck. :)

[nakedescapee]

Yes, I think I might have to tell a small fib... oh well. If it gets her feet to be trimmed, then so be it... especially if it truely hurts her.

He can definitely work without a stand and low to the ground, as he is a very short man to begin with... like a bulky jockey. So he doesn't have to bend that much to begin with. And, if he can't do it, I will find someone who can.

Thanks agian for the input. :)

Ginny