parelli-not so natural.

[helen03]

How can anyone justify calling parelli natural horsemanship?I own a 15.3hh anglo arab, who after extensive back specialists and vet visits , i have been told has some kind of bad memory that makes him petrified of having his back legs picked up.my vet advised me to take him to one of these parelli demo thingys, as they connected with the horse on a natural level.I DON'T THINK SO.I personally don't call Mark Rodney beating the living crap out of my horse for 2 hours and achieving absolutley nothing 'natural horsemanship'.All the man managed to make him do is walk on a trailer, THE BLOODY HORSE WALKED ON TRAILERS FINE IN THE FIRST PLACE!My horse is a sensitive compassionate animal, and beating him up has left him with mental scars , i am now unable to lunge him or carry a whip because he is now petrified of them after that evil man got hold of him.A ex friend of mind , and someone who takes parelli as the gospel truth , filmed the events and was asked to destroy the tape of the demo.if the man has nothing to be ashamed of why does he want the tape destroyed?I promptly took my horse straight home, mark was not permitted to touch my other horse, although he did give a swift whack with the carrot stick to my boy when he hesitated to walk on the lorry , to which he very nearly lost head to my boys kick.good on him i say!the man deserves a good kicking.
to sum up:
if my horse has to beaten up and scared of me to pick his feet up , then i'd rather he never did.There's meant to be trust between horse and rider, and my horse is taking an awful long time to regain the trust that he had in people before parelli man got hold of him.Treat your horse as you expect to be treated yourself , with respect and kindness , i personally thing that pays of more than parelli unatural horsemanship.

[maverick927]

My goodness that is awful.

I have seen so many articles about it and the whip has never been mentioned once. That man sounds a bit like a fraud if you ask me. I hope you horse can trust again.

I would have walked into the ring if he tried to beat up Maverick, as he can be sensitive too. My ex-boyfriend hit Maverick, and he was given a short shift!

[helen03]

But that's just the thing , he's not a fraud , he's trained and endorsed by pat parelli himself , he goes all round Britain doing demo's. Noone at this thing could see my problem!I had to stand up to about 20 people and make my point clear , but they all semmed to think that this was quite exceptable behaviour and that i was just a spoilt little brat who had evil horses , they told me my horse wasn;t fit to be ridden as he is dangerous , tommy is the sweetest most gentle horse ever , i can ride and jump him in just a head collar and i didn't need to beat him to achieve that!

[silly_sop]

That doesn't seem right.

I've been doin Parelli for about 2 months now, and me and my horse Shantih have come a long way. I've never gone to a demonstration, but I've heard about them and it really doesnt seem right about what this guy did. Good idea walkin out like that. Was this fella a Certified Parelli Instructor?

I do believe Parelli is almost as natural as can be. Its really about training the human, not so much the horse. I've loved every moment of it so far, and Shantih's attitude towards me has changed a lot too. I'll stop promoting Parelli now, but maybe if you want to give it a shot again you could get the home study course. That way, you can do everything with your horse, instead of someone else doing it.

Hope your horse wont be scarred for life, and that you can get his trust back.

[maverick927]

That is really bad then that people thought that was ok. How can beating a horse up be ok and he seemed to have a guilty conscience if the video had to be destroyed. I'll just have to make a note never to send Mavy to someone like that.

[belle]

I have read alot about parelli, and from what I have read, the carrot stick is used as a guiding tool, not something to beat the horse with.

I would think that you were unlucky to have taken your horse to such an person, there are good and people in all kinds of riding and horsecare. One example would be that in classical riding, there are still people that will beat the horse to get results, and other who will work with the horse.

I have also heard of some horse whisperers useing force with horses to get results, these are frauds and only in it for the money.:mad:

[galadriel]

In any group of "professionals" you sometimes encounter rotten ones--looks like you found a dreadfully awful one.

I hope you & your horse can recover well.

[helen03]

the man that did this stuff to tommy is called mark rodney , he is from australia and is supposed to be the next best thing to pat parelli himself.i think when it came down it , tommy wasn't responding to what he was trying to do to him and mark got frustrated and dealt with it in the wrong way. He was trying to get tommy to accept having the carrot stick flicked over his back as he ran around but tommy is petrified of things touching his rear end and this had been extensivley explained to him.when he would not accept this, he began to bash it over him , personally i don't see what this will achive if the horse would not even have it drapped over him,the horse is scared of his back end being touched so hitting his back end is surely going to reinforce this ide?.when he clearly wasn't getting any where with his feet and back, he then began what i felt was an atempt to 'distract' people from this by using parelli methods to get tommy to walk on the trailer , but as i said , he goes on a trailer fine anyway!He then blamed his lack of success on the horse being a 'stupid' arabian horse.this is very untrue as he does not act like an arab in the slightest, in fact quite the opposite.he is very quiet and never gets excited or wound up.

[ilovemisty]

oh my god thats awful!

[Rakeli]

I disagree with you on blaming Parelli for all this - it is genuinly NOT what Pat teaches. One person doing something very un-natural does not make the whole system bad.

When did this happen? I'm sure that I saw Mark Rodney at a demo on monday night, but not as a Parelli person. He's an ex-parelli person, but I though he'd been an ex for ages?! For a whatever-star instructor, he certainly didn't read the horses body language very well. I won't elaborate - he didn't hit the horse - but it's off topic.

I hope your horse recovers from his ordeal, but don't write PNH off. I think your vet is right about choosing it, just try another instructor. They are REALLY not all like that.

[helen03]

it happened in about september time but im still enraged!I think he has now taken a different route, calling himself blue horse natural horsemanship judging from a poster put up on our yard noticeboard, but he was definately working on parelli systems when he saw tommy.
I'm afraid this incident has put me off parelli for life, I know someone else who went to see pat parelli start some young horses and also didn't like the amount of hitting with carrot sticks envolved. Tommy shall be left without having his feet picked up until he feels he can trust me to do so.He's getting along just fine without any back shoes.

[Sue Carnell]

Mark Rodney was at the Duchy Rakeli. Is that where you saw him? He's going back there to do courses from what I can see. He was listed as a PNH instructor in Australia up until 2002, so looks as though he is ex PNH and relatively recently. I don't know why the ex though. It's not off topic though. If someone is claiming to be of the natural horsemanship type of thing, it's on topic to discuss what we see I would've thought. This is a natural horsemanship forum, not just for PNH, from how I understand it.

If Mark Rodney (or Pat Parelli) hit either of my horses with a carrot stick, he would very much regret it. I'm doing the PNH programme (home) myself and have got pretty nifty with the sticks and ropes. I'm sure I could give anyone attempting to hit my horse a pretty accurate whallop with whatever came to hand. Arabs are not stupid either, so even if he was a typical arab, that would make him smart, not stupid. It sounds as though this guy was flooding your horse, something that isn't very smart. I know who'd get my vote in the smartness stakes. What happened to introducing things slowly with approach and retreat?

Now you've been soured of PNH Helen and I don't blame you, other things that might help give your horse confidence might be clicker training and/or Tellington-Touch/Team?

I'm sorry you had such a bad experience, but it is true, people can get carried away with the 'respect' issue and forget the 'partner'. :( It's down to whatever the individual makes of anything I think.

Sue
sue@eclipse.co.uk

[helen03]

I saw him at the grange (okehampton , devon), I believe he's also just about to start a new course under his new blue horse name down here in conjunction with duchy college , me and my yard crew are thinking of going and protesting (like anti-hunts protesting, only we all go hunting?!)It made no difference what I said to them last time, because i was a minority against a majority (20 to 1!) so maybe a few more voices would be better heard!
I use clicker training whilst riding for forward transitions , but i'm not aware of it's other useages , my horses do respond to it as a 'go faster aid' very well so i would be interested to hear about it?As for the other 2 you suggested, I have never heard of them??Where could I find out about these things?

[Cochise]

Originally posted by helen03
.I DON'T THINK SO.I personally don't call Mark Rodney beating the living crap out of my horse for 2 hours and achieving absolutley nothing 'natural horsemanship'.All the man managed to make him do is walk on a trailer, THE BLOODY HORSE WALKED ON TRAILERS FINE IN THE FIRST PLACE!
Although what you have described sounds horrific and i dont endorse natural horsemanship either.
Why on earth did you not step in and intervene earlier. If you didnt like what you saw, why didnt you jump in and tell him to stop instead of sitting there watching it happen for 2 hours?
Not jumping on you, but you did have every right to tell him to stop.

[Rakeli]

I thought that was his name! Yes, I saw him at Duchy and wasn't too impressed. However, he was good on the rding instruction, and he was also with a Portugese classical bloke who was quite interesting.

Basically, he was playing friendly game and really wasn't giving the poor horse a chance to do what he wanted. He went straight to very high pressure, the horse really wasn't happy, so then - bizarely - he stopped to wait for her to lick and chew! Bit strange. He was very strong with the carrot stick, which I didn't like, but no hitting. He usually went straight to phase 3 or 4. He'd actually been working with this mare for 3 days, I suspect Pat would have gotten A LOT further!

And there was the patting thing. I don't pat horses, basically PNH's reason - they don't like it. I don't think that it's a very nice way to show you're please by smacking your horse. When horses are grooming each other it's naturally a more 'stroking' movement. He was saying that patting was what you had to do to show that you were pleased.

He was quite good as a riding instructor though - not sure if I'd want a lesson from him but it was good to watch. I don't think that Blue Horses is actually his thing, he's just endorsing them at the moment. I thought Blue Horses were just a way of offering training in natural and classical horsemanship.

R

[Rakeli]

Clicker Training - basically click and reward desired behaviour. Say you want the horse to touch a cone. Make it easy (maybe put the cone where he has to touch it), then click and reward (food, usually) when he does. You can use it to train for all sorts!

Tellington-Touch/TTEAM are the same thing. Started by Linda Tellington-Jones, it's interesting and fun. Not sure about the website address, I know that there is one. Try Google.

[helen03]

People often ask me that , but put yourself in the situation where 20 people all think that whats happening is fantastic and your the only one who disagress , it's slightly daunting to go and confront a whip yielding maniac!mark was also supposed to do a demo with my other horse, Abu , but I refused to let him touch my baby!The only reason Mark eventually gave up with Tommy was because he saw my obvious anger and tears!I also gave him and the other parelli queens, a peice of mind afterwards, which for meek and mild me was very big!then he told me my horses were maniacs and not to be ridden to which i jumped on tommys back without a headcollar or any tack and rode him over to the trailer park, screaming oh my god please help me he's evil and dangerous!(as he plodded over like a donkey!)I was called all the names under the sun by a group of middle aged woman which is quite daunting for a hungover 18yr old, but i still stood my ground alinging foul abuse straight back

[FRED]

Thats such a shame, ive watched the Parelli team at work {like thousands of people}and far from it did you see any signs of force.They had re trained some real badly abused tb horse.

I know some people who train horse and they don't go under any 'title' or any one method, but thier horse's turn out real good:) Ive often wondered how many of these people are about, tons I would guess;)
Anyway, my next door neighber is Farrier, and often has spoken about the state horses feet and shoes get into. Some through neglegt, some through a genuine ignorance, and others because their trying to save money by leacving shoes and feet untouched for longer than 6 weeks, which he finds long enough.
Hows your farrier coping? What on earth do you do to clean out horses feet.
:)

[Sue Carnell]

http://www.tellingtontouch.com/

For info about TTouch, which is for horses and other animals and TTeam which is to do with horse-riding. Some of the work might be appropriate to help out with your problems touching his hindlegs.

http://www.theclickercenter.com/

For more info about clicker training with Alexander Kurland. I think Alex should be visiting with Heather in Devon again this year and maybe doing a clinic. It depends on whether more people want her nearer to London/Oxford IIRC. I presume you're in/near Devon if you visit the Grange and the Duchy?

You might not be interested in all of it, of course, but I don't think it hurts to look at these things and use what you find appropriate for your own circumstances. Hope this helps.

Sue
sue@eclipse.co.uk

[Sue Carnell]

I think I'd be concerned about a horse not being comfortable with having his back feet lifted, or his hind-legs handled, in case anything goes wrong really. If he bruises/abscesses a hoof, or injures his leg that sort of thing. It could possibly mean sedatives for him to be treated. This chap setting him back is absolutely unforgiveable. I hope that you find a way forward soon Helen. Good luck.

Sue
sue@eclipse.co.uk

[rmarriott]

For information of the readers and the author, Mark Rodney is not a Parelli Instructor. His instructor status was terminated some time ago for failing to comply with our professional guidelines.

Parelli Natural Horsemanship is very successful in resolving problems and issues, however like anything, its' implementation is only as good as the practitioner and all techniques can be abused in the wrong hands.

It is a shame that you have an opinion of Parelli taken from a former instructor who should not have been using or associating with our good reputation and name.

Richard Marriott
Parelli Natural Horsemanship

[helen03]

Reply to your questions about tommy's feet.
Tommy has never had his back feet picked out or in any way touched by a farrier.Yet the farrier says from general observation that they are in really good shape and that the hoof has become hardy and more resistant than a shod hoof.The only thing I have to watch is his heels becoming to short if I do a lot of road work with him. As for sedating him , I have had a vet out to sedate him , and he got to the point where he couldn't even stand up, and he still went nuts if we touched his feet.Yet his front feet are fine and easy to handle!He is a tad strange.

[helen03]

so why was mark's professional status removed then?For beating the living crap out of horses and killing there spirit sounds about right.He still has a big following for his blue horse branch out from what I can see, people really do take what he says as the absolute gospel truth , which is slightly alarming.I think he should be left in a round pen with a few psychotic horses who should beat the crap outta him.

[rmarriott]

For information of the readers and the author, Mark Rodney is not a Parelli Instructor. His instructor status was terminated some time ago for failing to comply with our professional guidelines.

Parelli Natural Horsemanship is very successful in resolving problems and issues, however like anything, its' implementation is only as good as the practitioner and all techniques can be abused in the wrong hands.

It is a shame that you have an opinion of Parelli taken from a former instructor who should not have been using or associating with our good reputation and name.

Richard Marriott
Parelli Natural Horsemanship

[sasi]

Hi helen- really sorry to hear about your and your horse's bad experience. My friend has been doing Parelli with one of her horses for a year or so, and I've seen her/been forced to watch her doing all the 'games' with her. The 'carrot stick' is in no way, shape or form, meant to be used as a whip. It's called a 'carrot stick' for a reason- horses like carrots!!!!! I don't like to see people using whips at all, and think that there are other means to solving things. But anyway, I think you had a lot of bad luck with that guy- he sounds like a complete tw*t, and any people that were fascinated by his actions were probably pretentious fools! God knows how they treat their own horses!!! Poor things!!
Patience is really important with Parelli and that bloke probably just lost it. Just cos he was using the stick that way, doesn't mean Parelli is bad because i know it's been great for my friend's horse. She used to storm through trailers but now she wanders in aimlessly, and she's become more chilled as well.
All the best for the future,

Sarah

[Wally]

We had a horse with a foot phobia, it took ages just to be able to touch his feet, as for picking them up....FORGET IT!

We didn't resort to anything fancy, just plain old fashioned common sense and faith in your own ability to trust what you horse tells you is a genuine fear and not just naughtyness.

Advance and retreat, never overlaoding him, always working up to the comfort zone and backing off with plenty of reward. You can now shoe him with one arm tied behind your back, but it took about 3 years to get to this stage, no quick fixes just quiet common sense and patience.

It is possible and you can do it, Horses have such a strong sense of fair play, your poor boy will have lost faith in humans due to his unfair walloping, poor lamb.

[FRED]

Hello again, well today I just could not help thinking about your horse, Im just lost why people beat horse's or any animal.
Many years ago I started a Rogues gallery at work, I collected components from machinery that had been damaged by guys who 'tinker' and then deny it, despite the evidence!
Anyway, I was walking over Cannock Chase and I found this shoe,
I wanted to add it to my rogues gallery, even though at that time I had never sat on horses back in my life.I saved the shoe for my rogues gallery{must be a engineer's thing :o }I recon ive had this shoe 7 years{cringe in embaresment!}
You would think, bearing in mind how important to horse feet are, that guy would not make matters worse:( it must be a big worry.
Anyway, I have taken two photo's of the shoe I found so that you can see and maybe give opinion.Helen at least you won't have this with your horses rear feet.
Can a owner be charged with neglect when horses shoe are this bad.
I can't help but think that shoe in this state must have caused horse pain.
I know im of topic a bit here, but its because I wonder how people and horse cope when feet can't be shoed or trimed.
I want to show the shoe to the guy who lives at grandparents next door, but he's hardly ever not working.He does a lot of work for vets after horses have been shoed real bad too by other farriers.
Fred.
Hope you don't mind, but what do you think about shoe in this state.

[FRED]

And here is picture of shoe the other way up:mad:
It will stay in rogues gallery even though its nothing to do with machine.
Good luck with your horse:)

[ros]

I do think this kind of incident illustrates very clearly how gullible people can be at times. I've heard so many tales of how audiences have sat and watched trainers (of all kinds, not just Natural Horsemen) pull horses about, run them into the ground, and generally abuse them in the pretence that they know what they're doing - and these twits sit there and take it all in and can't seem to recognise abuse when they see it. (At least Helen did!) The fact that someone sets him- (or her-) self up as belonging to this or that school of horsemanship seems to brainwash people into believing that they MUST be the bee's knees, and it's just not the case.

When will folk learn to be more discerning? WHEN will they learn to tell the difference between a horse that's happily accepting and trying it's best, and one that's scared and confused and being forced? You really wouldn't think it was THAT difficult :(

I do think it's a shame that people like this guy spoil it for the others who genuinely care about horses and do a really good job. I wouldn't hesitate to send any horse of mine to Sue, for example, because she doesn't do anything to extremes and she isn't out to convince the world that there's only one way to do things - Parelli is just another tool in her box and she knows when it's the right one for the job :)

[virtuallyhorses]

Neither Pat Parelli nor any other Natural Horsemanship techniques advocate nor condone beating a horse. I'm sorry but I also don't buy the 'but all the people would look at me funny' excuse for standing by and letting it happen. Although as Ros says it happens a lot

Ros it was one of the things that struck me about Heather Moffats book actually - she describes several incidents in her book where she says she witnessed 'such-and-such' happenning ...but never a word about taking the person to task.

and yes, I do 'step in' I've even received a nice black eye on one occasion - such is life

You don't say how long ago this happenned or what you did about it afterwards either - like confronting this guy afterwards for an explaination, writing to Pat Parelli regarding this person (since he carries\or carried the PP endorsement) or perhaps bringing it to the attention of authorities such as the ILPH or SPCA

[Shiny McShine]

Folks will learn to be more discerning when they are taught to. So many people come into horses with very little to no knowledge of them. Most people I know who get interested in learning natural horsemanship are mature riders who buy a horse and then have no idea. In actual fact I would say the truth is that ignorance runs much further in the horse world than just with these innocent beginners. Many riding schools perpetuate sloppy riding and horse handling as I am sure anyone with much experience in that area would be aware. In my opinion it is not the fault of anyone but the 'expert' that these people cannot pick up on what is going on.

I think it is important to remember that being clued into horses is something that takes alot of knowledge, skills and experience...and even then most people don't really get it. If novices are presented with an 'expert' (especially one with honed marketing skills) it is natural that most people would respect that. It is a part of human culture to respect those with more knowledge. Only the most delving minds can see through some of the less reputable experts. Of course the more experience, knowledge and skill you have with horses the easier it is to spot when things aren't right. This is what education is for.

I remember when I started riding at 6 years old and the day I started I watched as my dad was asked to assist with getting a horse onto the float. I watched as 5 strong men attempted to push, lift, and force this horse into the float. After 2 hours the horse flipped over backwards, then ripped it's legs open as it jumped out of the yard. My dad was always bothered by this but he helped out because as someone who knew nothing about horses he trusted the words of a man who had been around horse all his life. If he had known better of course he would not have been involved in such a horrible situation, but how was he to know that there was an alternative.

This is why I am such a strong supporter of educating people and becoming an educator. If people are ignorant it is the role of those wiser to teach them. There will always be ignorant people, if there weren't then there would be no need for instructors and trainers. More unfortunately there will also always be bad trainers and instructors...because for one reason or another they think they are above everyone else.

[ros]

I do think you're right, Shiny, in that this kind of ignorance goes very deep and is found at all levels. One of the most common questions we hear is "How can I tell if my horse is playing me up or if he has a genuine problem?" Learning to read a horse does come with time and experience, but unless you have access to a large number and wide variety of horses, as lots of us hobby riders don't, you just don't get that kind of experience and there's no shame in admitting that you need some help to set you on the way. Unfortunately there are actually a lot of experts out there who don't see the need for that kind of codswallop, and will sometimes even teach us to ignore the signals the horse is trying to give us.

That's one of the things I like best about Heather - she always takes the horse into the equation (and gives him the benefit of the doubt) and her teaching is as much geared to making the horse happy and comfortable in his job as it is to helping the rider. She often makes a point on her courses of including videos of various well-known riders, which she uses to show pupils how to spot signs of tension, to differentiate between horses that are happy and relaxed and those which are unhappy and being forced. Pity more instructors don't do that.

To try and answer your question, Viv, Heather is in a difficult position. Being brave enough to air your beliefs openly doesn't always make you very popular with the people you're disagreeing with, so those who perpetrate this ignorance and cruelty are less likely to listen to Heather than most. In fact, ordinary people like you and me stand a better chance in those situations - if we were to stop admiring and patronising these people it would hit their careers and their pockets, and *that* would upset them, I'm sure!

So although Heather would *never* stand by and allow anything really untoward to happen without trying to stop it, there are, I think, times when she knows full well that the only thing she can do is walk away. Like Mark Rashid's "Old Man".

[Mossy]

I would not call myself experienced but I have been around horses a fair few years. I went to see a "dry " Parelli demo a few years ago and was not that impressed. however they reckon, as do all the equine behaviourists that they work by talking the horse's language. It must be a language with lots of different dialects! Imho the horse is a prey animal and we are predators. It also weighs about 10x our weight so physical force might beat it into submission but long term willing acceptance and trust - perhaps not. As Heather says, "if something feels wrong for your horse it probably is". If it seems wrong for a horse you don't know ask why it is happening as different horses, like children, need different handling. My two are chalk and cheese. If you don't like the answer you get esp at a demo, walking out quietly and with dignity says far more than creating. You never know lots of folks may be objecting inside but do not want to be the first to make a fuss. A mass exodus is publicity no showman wants!
Read ask learn and listen. Paul Belaskis' autobigraphy is amazing!

[janet hakeney]

I have two highly strung hotblood horses (Lusitanos) away at the moment being started by Ingela Sainsbury who is a Parelli Instructor and colt starter. I have been to watch her training them two days every week since they have been there. One is a four year old stallion and the other is a nine year old mare with a lot of hang ups who was never started or handled much untill now.

They have been treated appropriately and with uttmost professionalism and are making rapid progress. Yes I have seen the stallion have a 'phase 4' when he chose to behave in a disrespectfull manner, but only after Ingela was sure that he knew what was expected of him and that he was not frightened, just disrespectfull. This is the crux of the matter. A good horse trainer can tell the difference between when the horse is frightened and when it is disrespectfull and use the four phases of firmness in an appropriate manner. A bad one cannot tell the difference and uses the techniques regardless and will skip the 'ask'(phase 1 and 2) and go straight to the 'tell( phase 3 and 4) causing a lot of problems in the process.

Amateurs very often cannot tell the difference between when the horse is being disrespectfull and when it is genuinely frightened and this can cause dissent with the ''I never hit my horse brigade'' when they see a true professional giving the disrespecfull horse that is trying to walk all over them a phase 4. It is Natural for a higher ranking horse to give a disrespectfull lower ranking horse a serious phase 4 (biting,kicking or both) if it ignores the previous two requests and the warning. Most people miss the signs and signals and only just see the warning before the kick/bite or not at all untill the teeth sink in.

I know Mark Rodney. He was a junior Parelli Instructor for a while, but as Richard Marriott has pointed out he failed to comply with their standards and left some time ago. It sounds like the combination of his horsemanship and people skills were not up to the task on this particular occassion that is being complained about. I have seen him do some good work, but it is not necessarily along Parelli lines and doctrine and you shouldn't condem the Parelli Organisation and Instructors because of it.

[helen03]

:mad:
I take back what i've said in previos comments cos today the bloody horse certainly would not load.Mind you last time he was loaded was to escape the parelli man , so I don't really blame him.

[virtuallyhorses]

Ros, Janet, Shiny you have made a lot of excellent points and Ros I understand your point completely about 'prominent people' being easier to dismiss as 'cranks' (if I can paraphrase your response) :)

Although most of us may only have one horse, I do think there are a lot of opportunities to gain more experience, albeit secondhand - through books and videos or clinics or educational shows like Equitana's (or Equus in the UK??) and keeping an open mind to LOTS of different people's ideas. I do like to dip into as many different experiences as possible and see what 'adds up' with my own gut feel\logic.

That's why its so nice to come here are meet up with people who have much more experience, listen to all sorts of views and have my own challenged.

"There's more stupidity in the Universe than Hydrogen" - Frank Zappa :D

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)

[Rakeli]

Originally posted by virtuallyhorses
Although most of us may only have one horse, I do think there are a lot of opportunities to gain more experience, albeit secondhand - through books and videos or clinics or educational shows like Equitana's (or Equus in the UK??) and keeping an open mind to LOTS of different people's ideas. I do like to dip into as many different experiences as possible and see what 'adds up' with my own gut feel\logic.

That's why its so nice to come here are meet up with people who have much more experience, listen to all sorts of views and have my own challenged.

That's exactly what I do! I love hearing other peoples suggestions and solutions, as what works on one horse may not work on another. They are all individuals.

And another quote (not sure who said it):
We can only see with open eyes.
We can only hear with open ears.
We can only think with open minds.

[Sue Carnell]

.. but not so open our brain falls out.

Which is what happens sometimes, 'emperor's new clothes' syndrome.

Sue Carnell
sue@eclipse.co.uk

[Karenr]

I've watched and read about all types of "natural horsemanship" and although I've not tried all I do understand the basis to be Ask not Tell !!

My mare, as some of you may recall, was very difficult to handle, she had a lot of bad memories etc etc and I tried many methods of training. The most successful has been Cathy Tindall at the Holisitc Horse Centre, in 18 months (yes I know it is a long time) she has turned my mare around, mostly we have done shiatsu with my mare, TTouch and aromatherapy. Ziggs had a lot of hang ups with the past, obviously she couldn't tell us but somehow we have worked through most of them and she is a really pleasant animal to work with. Neroli Oil helps with "past trauma" - don't laugh it does actually help! She used to hate the farrier - my farrier tells me she is in the top ten for best behaved! The only fear she cannot deal with yet is her fear of vehicles in any shape or form - something dreadful happened but we are progressing, she can at least go into her stable if a tractor is parked at the opposite end of the yard - previously she would have refused to go anywhere that she could see it!

Last night the girls were well wound up with this wind and driving rain, so they were brought in and both hand TTouch, ears and gums done and a sniff of Lavender oil which really helped to calm them.

Try it - what have you got to loose? Cathy was Ziggs last chance, so really I guess I am saying find someone who is recommended by a friend or on this site - it is the best publicity anyone can get and you are more likely to find someone genuine. Don't give up - help your horse to help you understand - you'll get there.

Good Luck

[Wally]

Isn't natural horsmanship common sense by any other name?

[Esther.D]

Thats my definition too Wally:) Hence the reason I select the ideas I like from everybody and ignore the bits I don't and blend it all with common sense and experience and a knowledge of the particular pony/horse.

I am sorry to hear about your bad experiences though Helen03 :(

[janet hakeney]

Wally you make a good point, but how common is common sense? In my dealings with a lot of people it is about as abundent as hens teeth. I know that, to people who are already good horsemen, a lot of it is stating the blindingly obvious. But there are thousands of horses in livery yards around this country who their owners do not know how to handle safely, and cannot be ridden at walk, trot and canter without either the rider being put in danger or being frightened. What tends to happen is people 'cope' with the horses and ride them in very limited amounts or circumstances if at all. At least Parelli gives them something safe and educational to do playing the ground games. It gets the poor horses out of their stables, and starts the owners understanding what makes their horses minds tick. That if nothing else makes it worthwhile in my book.

[Shady_Indigo]

Originally posted by helen03
the man that did this stuff to tommy is called mark rodney , he is from australia and is supposed to be the next best thing to pat parelli himself.

Makes me ashamed to be an Australian. Yes i have heard of him, and i have seen one of his demo's, though he was a bit firmer fisted that i would have though necessary, he wasn't anything as bad as you describe, is there any organisation you can report him to?

[virtuallyhorses]

Wally, Janet I've had this very discussion a number of times and certainly it may just be 'commonsense' to 'horse people' (if I may phrase it that way). But there are so many of us, who are new to horses these days, they simply aren't a part of our lives in order for us to pick up 'commonsense' by osmosis so you learn by example and\or whoever is around.

...and then who's commonsense? Yours? Pat Parelli's? the bloke who's just been had by the SPCA on some cruelty charge ? (had horses all me life...) ? the stereotypical pony club\BHS instructor (sorry if you are one and hate this ) who stermly commands that the horse MUST do as its told and uses a crop on a frightened animal....

commonsense is a tricky thing ...

:)

[janet hakeney]

Commonsense ought to tell you that someone that can set out a system of training in a logical and progressive manner, and give the reasons why they are doing what they are doing, and evidence those reasons and assertions ought to be worth listening to. A lot of 'trainers' can 'show' you what to do but cannot teach you to do it yourself, so a progressive system that allows anyone to learn skills should be a prerequisite. Talent is a process, and unless a training system (be it for horse or rider) focuses on the 'process' it is doomed to fail for most people. There are several trainers that give good evidence of their process. Of the ones I am familiar with Pat Parelli and Mary Wanless appear to me to be the most open and transparent.

[Mossy]

Mebbe natural horsemanship is defined as informed common sense. Us old souls who grew up hanging round the stables at w/es, working for rides and absorbing "horse" like a sponge, and getting kicked and bitten if we did not :D :mad:, had an education that just is not around for today's youngsters or their teachers. I admit to 40+ but considering most tutors at riding stables are in their 20's that is two generations who have not learnt horse straight from the horse's mouth!
The old ostlers of yore were, in the main fantastic horsemen. You try dominating a full size shire when you are ploughing with it. They were around horses morning noon and night. Unfortunately it does not take long to "educate" a young person who is naturally "horsewise" out of such wisdom when constantly in the company of some modern experts!

[Sammys Mum]

As much as what happened to your horses was bad I feel quite strongly about your attitude towards Natural Horsemanship. You dont really have a right to say what you have, this was one experienced with one man. Natural Horsemanship is a totally amazing thing and personally I believe it is the only way horses should be handled, trained etc. Also this was your horse. You have complete control of everything that happens to it. One thing the Association of Natural Horsmanship makes very clear is that when they are working with your horse if at any time you are not happy you stop what they are doing.

[luv horses]

Where i learn to ride my instructor uses natural type of horsemanship to train horses which he buys cheaply mostly because of behaviour problems. I have talked to a couple of people who think that he gets a bit rough with them and yes sometimes when they don't want to listen he does get strong (no whips though) but what really amazes me is how gentle and soft he becomes when they do listen to him and how they seem to look up to him and want to be with him and that has to say a lot.

I know that he looks out for the horses body language to read whether they're reacting from fear or disrespect. He was riding a pony today that has had a hard time in the past and tends to get fearful and a bit reactive when someone's on his back. When he finished with his training session this pony just wanted to be with him and was following his every movement because that's where he seemed to feel safe. It was lovely to see.

[kerysj]

I understand that the writer's experience was not good but I cannot agree with writing off all of the good stuff about PNH because of one poor experience. I have just started reading about PNH and have found a number of good ideas. Your experience sounds very much against the ideals that PNH tries to promote i.e. trust, consistency and love of the horse. I have looked at a number of different training methods including PNH, Intelligent horsemanship(Kelly Marks), Clicker training, tteam and good old fashioned patience and persistance. I have found that you can take useful ideas from all of them and adapt them to suit your own horse but the most important idea is to build trust with your horse and have fun. Richard Maxwell says that you should never allow anyone to do anything to your horse that you do not feel comfortable with and this is the best piece of advice I have seen anywhere. My riding instructor doesn't use any method as such but I have learnt a massive amount form her. She is calm and collected most of the time but uses firmness and discipline when necessary - this does not mean beating the horse. You are ultimately responsible for what happens to your horse and I think that some natural horsemanship ideas will help you but at the end of the day you have to let your instincts guide you and what feels wrong is wrong.

[horsefreak]

Sorry to hear about your bad experiance Helen!! I think you told me quite soon after it happened, and so you had all my views on it then!!

My yard owner defined Parelli NH as 'common sense which you have to pay for, a stick which is related to a carrot and most people are doing it already, but just cant see it yet'. I stick to that! I mean, whats with the carrot stick?? Can the horses eat it? Is it smelly? Can humans eat it too? Can you chop it up, cook it and eat it with your roast dinner?? Can you put it in a cake?? But hang on, hasnt PP already changed it?? Isn't it called a wallop stick now?

Ax ~ Jx

[makebelieve]

:( I'm sorry about that experience.

I would have of been furious too...

[janet hakeney]

Helen did not have an unpleasant experience with Parelli Natural Horsemanship Helen did not have an unpleasant experience with Parelli Natural Horsemanship

She had an unpleasant experience with someone who did not meet the standards of PNH and had already been rejected by them for his lack of standards.

It's like blaming Macdonalds for the poor quality of the food at the sleazy burger joint down the road. Just because they describe their products in the same terms does not indicate comparable quality or digestability. You might not like the food at Macdonalds, but at least you know what you are getting. At the unregulated cheap alternative you could get more than you bargained for including food poisening.

[helen03]

janet, although i was done and dusted with this thread months and months ago, i must add that at the time mark rodney saw tommy he WAS still working under parelli therefore call it what you like but i still call it natural horsemanship.

[cvb]

Hi Helen

He may have called it 'natural horsemanship ' and that was certainly what you were expecting - but it does not sound like that is what he delivered !

At least not in the generally accepted definition (and I'm talking broader than PNH here).

Personally I wouldn't credit behaviour like that with the word 'horsemanship' let alone put a 'natural' anywhere near it. No wonder you were upset. But please don't let one person's behaviour tar your view of natural horsemanship. There are, sadly, 'rogue' instructors out there in most approachs to riding (Just read some of the posts on this board !). They are rare and a minority - not to excuse them but they are not necessarily representative of the approach itself.

What happened with the original 'problem' with your horse ?

(Janet - I WOULD complain if I went into a MacDonalds that was clearly labelled as MacDonalds, sold something as a MacDonalds product, and had a problem - even if the manager was later sacked by the company.)

[horsefreak]

Originally posted by janet hakeney

You might not like the food at Macdonalds, but at least you know what you are getting.

Sorry, this is totally off thread but after finding out that they put chicken fat in their milkshakes and ice creams, and they dont put it on the ingrediants list, I think we dont actually know what we are getting!!!

Ax

[Sarah]

hello!

I think this thread has run its useful course now so I am about to close it.

Sarah