Another Attitude Issue im afraid [Archive]

Sweet Raven

17th May 2003, 11:22 PM

15 all

I have just bought a new horse, Murphy , he's a Welsh Cob Section D and until 8 months ago was a stallion.

He was advertised as 100% bombproof ride and drive and after a few telephone calls to establish that he was exactly what i needed. Im a mature mum returning to riding after a fairly long break. I have a back problem after an accident with a racehorse, so i needed something steady to just enjoy hacks out on.

Two very experienced people came with me to see Murphy and he was a picture and standing very calmly waiting for us to look over. The owner rode him around his field, he was brilliant, my friend and i both rode him with no problems whatsoever. Seemed after two loan horses that i had finally got my horse.

We brought him home the following week..........and this is where the problems began.

i was down the yard bright and early the saturday morning to say hello. I put a head collar on him and brought him out to do a little bonding by giving him a good brush etc. After this was done, i walked him out to his field. All went well.

He was out in the field approx 15 minutes. Said hello over the fence to two horses in the next field. All went well. we stood watching to make sure he was ok when he suddenly just broke through the fence and went straight into the next field. The two other horses much bigger than him, a hanovarian and a gelderlander chased him around, though nothing nasty. We tried to calm them and decided not to chase them. the two horses have access to two fields and they shot through the opening into the next field. Murphy didnt make it and crashed straight through a wooden fence into our 12 acre field.

As the yard breeds and shows Welsh Cobs we had 6 mares, two in foal in a large field leading off from the 12 acres., he found them and tried running into the field.

It took four hours to get him back into the the main field and after removing the two other horses he ran up to the gate and tried to get water, this was the only time we were able to get near him and finally caught him.

I took him back to the stable, checked him over and found him ok, let him calm down before letting him have anything to drink or eat.

We repaired the fence and made sure all the electrics were working. The next day i took him out and led him around the field showed him his boundaries and stood with a lunge line on him. He just stood and grazed for an hour. We put it down to first day settling in, and duly released him. within 5 minutes he was through again and we had the same repeat, though he didnt get out into the 12 acres. We just brought the horses in and we caught him within an hour.

he was going to be stable bound until we got bigger electric fencing.

I decided to do some ground work with him and walk him around the yard and then take him in the indoor school. i hadnt got far when he just bolted for no reason, i couldnt hold him and he wouldnt be caught. we finally got him in the outdoor school and had to lunge him until he was too tired, then we tried join up with him which worked wonderfully. A little progress i thought.

inbetween times, im grooming, talking, spending time with him. Next day we tried again, this time with a stallion chain instead of a lead rope. He still tanked off with me and dragged me a fair distance. The owner of the yard decided we needed to take him in the indoor school and we lunged him. he worked fine and concentrated well..............just when i thought he was doing ok he turned his head and tanked off again, i just couldnt hold him. i got the lunge line and managed to work him again without any mishap and walked him round the school.

We tried doing join up with him in the confines of the indoor school, he went round and round and did drop his head but hardly any chewing, after half an hour he finally succumbed and i turned away to invite him to join up. he walked towards me but didnt stop, instead he headed straight for the gate and bust straight through it. !!!!

to cut a weeks story shorter, i have now got him on a chifney, it seems to be the only thing i can hold him with. I can walk him without being out of control now. The farrier shoed him, he was like a lamb. Grooming, stable manners are fine, hes so gentle. BUT, i still cant catch him when hes turned loose.

Where i got him from he had a stable in a field and he was never used to being caught, they rattlled his feed bucket and he just walked into the stable. he just doesnt trust anyone. He has been turned out for the last two days now and today he actually walked up to the fence and accepted a carrot. i managed to stroke him to his shoulder. I just wanted him to know im not going to work him every time i go to him. If i could only get a lead rope on him and take him out of the gate turn him and take him back i think it would lead to much more confidence and trust between us.

Any suggestions as to how to go forward with my gorgeous boy. He will be so worth it in the end.

HOpe you havent all fallen asleep reading, but background detail is important with a problem i feel.

hope to hear from you.

in hope

HoRsE ChIcK

18th May 2003, 12:13 AM

This sounds like a case of either a horse with an attitude prolblem, or a scared and confused horse. From what you have said, it sounds as if he's scared and confused. If he has an attitude problem, he would make that apparent more then just when you were catching him. He may not understand why you are trying to catch him, and thats what i think because you said he was never caught at his old home. I would say keep feeding him in his field, and earn his trust, and then gradually out his halter on after giving him a carrot, and then just leave the halter on, and then give him another carrot, let him wander around for a while, and then take off the halter. Then try doing the same thing except attatch a lead shank, walk him in a circle, and then take the leadshank off and praise him.
Good luck with him!
Keep us updated!
~Holly~

galadriel

18th May 2003, 12:37 AM

Interesting.

He was easy to handle until you kept him locked up full time, right? Not many horses can deal well with being locked up all of the time, especially if they were pasture kept before (it sort of sounds like that, but not sure).

So you took him to a new place, with lots of new things and lots of new expectations on him; he doesn't respect your fences (big problem, which you've worked on) and as a result his lifestyle changes drastically and he has no way to work off his energy. In addition you chased him around and probably were not entirely pleasant to him when you caught him--twice. (You don't say you punished him, and I have no reason to think that you did, but if you were tired from the chase & the excitement, and frustrated, you probably did not give him the time of his life.)

So when he starts to lose control of his energy, from being locked up 24/7, you got worried and started handling him with more harsh hardware; since he's now hyper, in a new place, with a new person, AND being handled is now painful (and scary), he's having even more troubles--I honestly can't blame him.

For a few days at least life was really, really upsetting to him, and everyone around him was harsh. Are you still using the chifney? If so, it's going to be pretty difficult to convince the guy that being caught is a good thing. If not--if he's doing all right and not bolting/having hyper fits now that he's getting turnout--then you will need to convince him that being caught won't hurt him.

After the week you describe that will be very hard. I wish you luck. You're going to need to spend hours with him trying NOT to catch him. There's a very good article about how to convince a horse that you (and being caught by you) are okay:
http://www.horse-sense.org/archives/frighors.htm

Sweet Raven

18th May 2003, 01:05 AM

Thank you both for your replies.

No he wasnt easy to handle until he was locked up. Nobody has done anything that was cruel or unpleasant to him as you have suggested. Assumptions are not the best way to give advice in my mind. I have read lots of advice you have given and respect that you sound knowledgeable. However, please dont assume that i am an impatient person that loses control. I was more releaved that Murphy was safe, unhurt and hadnt harmed himself or any other horses in the process.

I accept a new horse in a new environment is bound to react differently. I have worked with horses most of my life, but had a long rest period in between and not experienced this before.

Murphy is 12 years old. He was a stallion up to 8 months ago so knew no other life other than being in a stable. His owner had him gelded so he could be put out to graze with other horses as she was moving to australia.

During his time in the stable, which was 2 days.........and he did have constant attention, he was taken in and out for brushing . We do understand a horses needs and have been nothing but pleasant. However, he cannot be seen to be able to just do what he wants when he feels like it, it is dangerous to him, to other people and other horses for him to barge off.

The chifney is not being used in a harsh manner and if it means i am able to keep control of him while i get him to a field then that is far the best method than having to fight him all the way.

he is not scared or frightened. He can walk along so calmly then just suddenly go without any warning. I have walked him around the yard, he is not being treated harshly or having pain inflicted on him by me or anyone else on the yard, he doesnt have hyper fits either. You make us sound like ignorant immbociles.

Hes had the chifney on twice. I am trying to give him the best time i can, i have only been trying to lead him out to graze, but he makes hard work of doing the simplest of things. We try and work on Richard Maxwells and Monty Roberts training methods, neither of which i believe to be cruel to the horse.

He is let out in a normal head collar. All our horses have them on during turn out. He is a welsh cob with an attitude and doesnt know any better. I am trying to do what i can to give us both the best time and work together in a pleasant and fulfilling manner.

If i sound defensive, i have been made to feel that way. Constructive criticism is wonderful i can work with that. Thank you anyway for taking your time to reply and i will check out the website you sent.

I feel progress has been made in a week and i am looking ahead in a positive manner. Its easy to be negative, but im prepared to put in the work and do what i can. Just wanted some advice. thank you ........Raven

galadriel

18th May 2003, 01:26 AM

I don't think you are treating him harshly or being cruel. I do think his first few days with you were pretty freaky from his point of view, and I also think that the tools you are using are ones *he* is going to see as harsh. As a result, I suspect you have not convinced him that being handled is fun. If you use a chifney when you handle him, I doubt you will convince him that it's fun.

If he wasn't easy to handle before he first broke the fence, then why did you start out your first post saying:

he was brilliant, my friend and i both rode him with no problems whatsoever. Seemed after two loan horses that i had finally got my horse.

We brought him home the following week..........and this is where the problems began.

i was down the yard bright and early the saturday morning to say hello. I put a head collar on him and brought him out to do a little bonding by giving him a good brush etc. After this was done, i walked him out to his field. All went well.

That's what you gave us to go on: that you had had no problems until he broke through the fence, at which point you had to lock him up. After which point he bacame a problem. So if that's not the case, then I'm quite perplexed by the phrasings in your posts.

I highly doubt that he is in an abusive situation or one where he is being mistreated--but after his first several days with you, you have a lot of ground to make up before HE will relax and believe that you are a source of comfort.

lisae

18th May 2003, 01:33 AM

It is definitely very early on for this gelding and he sounds like he needs time to settle in. Having been recently gelded may contribute to this fence busting thing, as well! It takes up to a year for the hormone levels to drop completely, and having been a stallion meant perhaps he never had to learn to socialize.

I'm not sure that a chifney is (not a side dish for rice and curry, I assume!) but my gelding Dante had some respect issues when leading and we had to resort to a chain over his nose, something I had never done before, but it changed his attitude almost immediately without ever giving him more than one or two sharp tugs. As Raven notes, your safety is the most important thing.

Dante also had a way of barging forward when being led and I stopped it by twirling the end of the lead rope with my left hand, vertically in front of us; if he stayed where he was supposed to be it was not a problem but as soon as he pushed past this spot, oops, a whack in the nose. Again, not something I would ever do ordinarily, whack a horse in the head, it was a mild flipping of the rope, but it worked.

I liked Galadriel's article, it points out the time issue; I thought it was interesting that Murphy got almost to join up but then resisted at the very end. He's an independent minded sort! Sometimes this is a cover up for anxiety, at least it was in a gelding I owed a few years ago. Hang in there and this is going to sort itself out. I would think of him as a recovering stallion in the meantime, he does sound like he's still in the hormone soup somewhat.

ros

18th May 2003, 07:55 AM

I do agree with Galadriel and lisae - your poor lad has had a big culture shock and he's bound to have some issues for a while!

Having been a stallion for his first 11 years means he's probably very intelligent and pretty independent, and hasn't actually learned to be a gelding yet, as lisae says. Hardly surprising, then, if he's a bit of a handful at first! And it certainly sounds as though his first week was pretty traumatic for both him and you. However, it's water under the bridge now.

I'm not altogether sure I would ever turn a new horse out straight into a field with others - been there, done that, isn't worth the risk. But of course that does mean you have to have a pretty good fencing system :D We tend to make a paddock with a double electric fence now (linked to a good powerful mains fencing unit) then take away the second fence after a couple of weeks and so on. Always find the horses settle better if they can get used to seeing each other around for a while first. Also works very well if they get ridden out together as much as possible.

I'm quite your horse will settle eventually, but with his added complications it may take a bit longer than usual. Is there any way the previous owner could come over and see him and give you a hand?

Big Ears

18th May 2003, 08:24 AM

As a stallion until recently he has had a very restricted life in terms of mixing with other horses. I have a very mareish cob mare and we have had endless difficulties with her, in terms of her behaviour with others, and have often had to keep her apart from other horses for safety.

We rehomed her to what seemed a really good home that would be better for her and they weren't as careful, despite all warnings, and she was kicked within three days and broke her leg. I now have her home and she is on paddock rest, and with a new companion mare, who she is now running with, but only after three weeks of looking at each other over fences etc.

The main thing you need is to establish a secure area that he can be turned out in safely as otherwise you are putting all the other horses in the yard at risk. You may have to keep him in this area for a couple of months, socialising over fences, until such time as it is safe to introduce another horse. He probably just doesn't understand horse etiquette.

I introduced my mare to two young gelding ponies, in a 20 acre field, and despite separating them, the first time they were allowed together she chased them and would have killed them. Then she went into season and wanted to have their babies. I brought her back to the home paddock after that and never socialised her with them again.

Similarly I had a tb on loan, again a gelding and perfect gentleman, and I could socialise them together as she again was constantly in season. So I have taken the hint that she is only safe with mares. The new mare has turned out to be the boss which is 90% unexpected.

In terms of his leading, perhaps you should try to build up a relationship with him, just leading him, in a headcollar, in the field, picking up his feet, grooming him, tying him etc, just spending time on him rather than risking situations where he is going to barge - i know the strength of cobs.....

Or perhaps you may simply have to accept, after a couple of months, that this isn't the right horse in the right place.

I have been lucky, the mare I have on loan has been in the same home all her life but has settled well, i was expecting her to be stressed but she has been as good as gold. It is very hard to predict how they will react but the main thing is, in the short term, minimise the situations where either of you can be hurt.

virtuallyhorses

18th May 2003, 08:27 AM

I think I agree with Galadriel's assessment. There are so many conflicting things in your descriptions 'he was bombproof' but he didn't trust anyone, he has perfect stable manners but you can't lead him... it sounds like you need help from someone more experienced.

From this "...we finally got him in the outdoor school and had to lunge him until he was too tired, then we tried join up with him which worked wonderfully...." and this "...after half an hour he finally succumbed and i turned away to invite him to join up. he walked towards me but didnt stop, instead he headed straight for the gate and bust straight through it. !!!!"

I think you need to get some help from someone with more experience in ground work. Roundpen work is not 30 minutes of letting a horse run around in circles nor is it lunging him until he is 'too tired'. In any 30 min session the horse will have been 'asking' for guidance many, many times - by the end of this time he had probably given up that he was ever going to be listened to and as soon as you turned your back he simply saw his chance to escape not join up.

Sweet Raven

18th May 2003, 11:15 AM

thank you all once again for your replies. I apologise if the way i have worded things have caused great misunderstandings. I thought what i put sounded ok to me.

Where to start with all these conflicts.

OK the fencing issue is done and dealt with. I didnt turn Murphy out into a field with any other horses. And it was electric fencing, but obviously not thick enough. This has now been remedied and he is fine, grazing, rolling and enjoying his field.

Murphy was Advertised as Bombproof, i never said he was. His manners inside the stable are perfect. I can groom him, lift his feet, pet him.......(without resistance i might add), i have sat reading in there and he is happy to try and steal my book. I dont think i have been trying to do too much with him as i have really only been wanting to walk him round the yard to introduce him to the things we have and to let him see the fields. the first day obviously was new to him hence that he walked with me without a problem, he didnt know what he was going to find.

We didnt lunge him to exercise him, it was the only way we could catch him as he couldnt be left outside all night. My main aim is safety and security. Left out alone in a field was not an option, he had to come in and tiring him out in order to achieve that was the only way. It was not done in a harsh or severe manner, but he is not fit and hence it didnt take long.

I was an apprentice jockey for 6 years, so i do have a bit of understanding of horses. I was asking for help not criticism. We can all pull people apart but its not the way to achieve anything. I feel im doing my best and between the people on the yard we do have a lot of experience.

Please understand that the reason i lunged him was to be able to catch him, otherwise id have been walking round for ever trying to get him back to his stable. Maybe you could suggest a way i could catch him instead of telling me how not to. this is what i need and why i asked for help. I do understand a little about how a horse asks, and you will notice i did say about him chewing, licking and lowering his head. I am not an expert but the basics were all i was trying to establish .

I am spending as much time as i can with Murphy, he is so different when he is in the stable and tethered outside to groom. I cannot walk him in a head collar. even the previous owner used to put a rope through his mouth to lead him. I have phoned him a few times and he just suggests i bring a bucket out to get him in, like we havent tried all those things already. We dont have stables in fields on our yard so that really isnt solving anything. He was already caught when i went to see him so i never saw that there was a catching problem and he never mentioned it until i rang him. He just said he can be a bit of a handful at times. That is from a man that has owned him 10 years.

I will do my best for my boy, i wont give up. The last 8 months he has been turned out with 3 mares and 2 young colts, never had any bother. I also have a little welsh section a that my girls ride. he is in the next field so he has some company but cant get to him. I know with time and patience things will work out.

It is hard to take criticism when you feel you are doing whats right, it is just frustrating. I do appreciate all your comments and i will take on board what has been said. Im in no rush to do anything major with him, one step at a time is fine with me. yesterday was wonderful that he came up to the fence of his own accord and accepted a carrot. Today i will have a walk around the field and see if he will come to me in there.

take care, bye for now ........Raven

LindaAd

18th May 2003, 12:18 PM

It just sounds to me like a horse that is panicking because he doesn't know where he is or what's going on, and he's desperate to be with a herd, because that means safety.

Can you set up some sort of routine that he understands? Like, if he's used to being taken in at a certain time and fed, turn up at that time with a bucket every day. What would happen if you left him out all night until he's willing to be caught?

My experience isn't vast, but I've never known a horse that didn't have some difficulty settling into a new place - I'm sure that given time Murphy well turn back into the calm
horse you first saw.

Zingy

18th May 2003, 04:29 PM

Certainly sounds like you're working down the right tracks Raven. The fact that he came to you yesterday is a big step. It is going to take a lot of time and patience though. Have you thought about clicker training rather than join up? Welshies are awful at join up :rolleyes: (wait for the posts from people who've managed it... :o ). My A took about 12 months to do it, my friends D took ages - they just seem way too strong willed for it. And every time you give up you've reinforced they don't need to bother - they're effectively boss. But clicker training - they both took to it straight away - couldn't do enough of it.

If you first just teach him click means treat. Do it in the stable when he does something good, like picking his feet up which you have no trouble with. When he's sussed it, take him in the school/ field, and personally I'd just sit there. If he pays you any attention at all, even if it's just to look at you, click and offer a treat, but he must come to you. You can leave it on the floor so he doesn't need to touch you at first, but gradually get closer until he has to take it from you. It would be harder in the field as there's food there for him anyway, so you need to know what he can't resist - even if it is chocolate! And be prepared for a whole day sitting there!

It will take a long time, but it will be worth it. However, you may always be in the position that he's not easy to catch. A friend of mine got a D who was 6 and only just gelded. It's taken 10 years to get him so other people can reliably catch him. Before then his mum managed 95% of the time, but she tried to look on the bright side - noone could pinch him!

casey

18th May 2003, 05:38 PM

Hi Raven

Encouragement coming your way

By the sounds of it, your boy has been cut late. He's at a new place, testing the water etc...blah blah.

I love it when people presume your incompetent..Dont you? I have 2 competing stallions, both of which are in hard work and both of which get turned out with geldings. I have raised them and they know no different. As for a chifney, There is no way I am going to tolerate being "dragged" around a field. by lets face it half a ton of hormone weilding stallion, and if you compete at major events, there wont be a single person competing stallions without a chifney. Oh before you say anything, I compete for a living!

You sound like your doing what you can for Murphy, and we as a community should be aware of the sharks out there that will say or do (including doping) anything to sell a horse.

galadriel

18th May 2003, 05:42 PM

I have not been trying to criticise you. Please, when you ask for help, keep an open mind as to the advice you may receive. Sometimes it's not really what you were expecting--but why ask if you are not intending to listen to what other people may say?

I have been attempting to put into words what the horse was probably feeling, from his point of view. Uprooted, confused, situation constantly changing, no fixed routine. A happy, content horse with no problems does not suddenly bolt while being handled, for instance--but any of his "problems" could be attributed to the mere fact that he was in a new home, he was not (yet) given any routine, your methods kept changing, and then that you were using quite a harsh piece of hardware.

From his point of view, I don't think the horse has an attitude--I think he needs consistency and calmness. I think, from his perpective, that hs first week with you was nothing to be delighted about. Some of that was nothing you could control; some of that was directly a result of his own behavior, but HE doesn't know that; and some of that was because you are using a chifney--something that can hurt him very much if he tries to express his confusion.

Please try to take advice as it was meant: an attempt to help, not an attempt to attack you. Had I wanted to criticize you, I'd have *said* that I thought you were "an impatient person that loses control" or being "cruel"--I did not say either of these. I do think it's human nature to be a little exasperated when you have to run after a horse, spend a lot of time catching him, and protect other horses from him, and have to repair fence damage. In that state of mind, it's hard for you to make being caught a happy, calm experience for a horse. If nothing else, you're probably a bit excited and tired--not at your best. I didn't say I thought you lost control--just that it was probably not the best experiecne you could have given him.

I also don't think you're being deliberately mean or harsh, but you have used methods which are designed for your own safety; from the horse's point of view, they ARE harsh. Whether or not you needed to use them was irrelevant--it doesn't make a difference to the horse that his behavior was dangerous and you needed to protect yourself. From the horse's point of view, they make being handled not fun. It helps to be aware that the horse was probably not enjoying being handled. It can certainly make a difference to how he feels about being caught.

You asked for comments about catching your horse. I told you that I didn't think your horse had enjoyed his time with you--and why--and that you were going to have to get past that before he was going to trust you enough to be caught. I also gave you a very good reference on horse handling; the whole site is a very good one. In fact, if you don't like my take on your question, you could certainly ask the author of that site. She has pages and pages of archives on horse owning and hndling, and has very good advice for almost everything. Jessica Jahiel also sends out a newletter in which she answers readers' questions; I encourage you to ask her what she would advise.

Sweet Raven

18th May 2003, 09:03 PM

Hi

Firstly i would like to address Galadriel. I was not directing all my comments towards you Galadriel, i was replying generally to comments sent by everyone.

I have taken on board your comments and visited both sites you listed. I am happy to listen to your advice. Maybe as this is the first time i have ever felt the need to ask for outside help i was not expecting people to be as 'harsh' with me as i felt they had been. Maybe im a touch too sensitive, but i do have an open mind and most of what you have said makes sense.

Thank you for the time you have taken addressing my issues, your last post i found most revealing. Most of the techniques i have been advised to use i have never handled before, apart from the chifney which we used on the racehorses. I am on a yard full of people that have been raised with welsh cobs section c and d and if they suggest a way to do something who am i to disagree. I may not like the idea of putting a chain across a horses nose, but if there is no other way i have to be able to control him. If he responded without a problem there would be no need for any of this. I cant work something out without resorting to some type of method that he is not going to enjoy.

However on a Positive note........today was wonderful. i got down the yard and went straight to the field to see him. He actually ran across the field to the gate, it brought a lump to my throat. Whatever he had in his mind, it made me feel happy that he came to me. he put his head over the fence and allowed me to stroke him. I rubbed and scratched his neck and shoulders and he stood there so wonderfully still. After id been there about 10 minutes i walked away and returned with some carrots as a reward/treat for letting me touch him. He accepted them very gently. I walked inside his field and he again allowed me to be close to him and to feed him. i walked away a little and stopped ....he walked to me. My heart was beating so fast, i felt so pleased with him. I didnt want to push things so again i said goodbye to him and went out of the field. I attended to Tango my girls pony and then returned to Murphys field after about 30 mins. I thought i would do some pick ups - so went in with the wheelbarrow and scoop. Wherever i went with the barrow, he followed, i didnt attempt to touch him or look at him, i just talked and sang as i got on with my jobs. After i filled up the first barrow i went out of the field with Murphy behind me. It was great, but trying to get a full barrow out of a field when he is breathing down your neck was not the easiest of tasks but i didnt care. When i returned with the wheelbarrow my blood drained out of my body, the gate was wide open and Murphy was stood eating grass just outside the gate. I stopped and wasnt sure exactly what he was going to do. I spoke to him and he lifted his head to listen. I just didnt want him to get past me and run out into the yard. I just said a simple come on little man lets have you back in the field and to my amazement he just walked in !!! can you imagine my relief. I shut the gate. Normally i tie a lead rope around the middle to ensure its safe, as i was returning with the barrow i only put the top catch on..........smart boy obviously worked it out.

I was just so pleased with him i went for a couple more carrots. Murphy was leaning over the fence when i got back so i fed him over the fence and stroked his neck, he curled his head around the back of mine. It almost felt like a hug, im sure it wasnt but it felt nice. He stood there letting me scratch him down his nose, his neck, shoulders, back and rump. his eyes were half closed. I returned back up to his neck and put my arms around him. He stood there just letting me. I never attempted to touch his headcollar. Today i feel like ive won the lottery. Whether i did right or wrong, i feel a personal achievement.

Perdita

18th May 2003, 09:58 PM

I have come to this thread late, but to be honest I wouldn't have any useful advice anyway :D But, I just had to butt in here and say how wonderful your last post was to read - what a sweetie:) He sounds like a very special boy, and I wish you both the best of luck.I hope you continue to bond well with each other, and that he settles further into his new home so that you two can enjoy life as a great team:) Good luck! And welcome to New Rider by the way:)

Sweet Raven

18th May 2003, 10:24 PM

Thank you Perdita.

It was a truly wonderful day today. I didnt know how it would be when i first went down to the field, but i do live in hope.

Im sure he wants to come in out of the field now and when i have a few more days like today and he responds well, i may try to put a lead rope on him and walk him out of his field.

If anyone can give me any useful tips on how to deal with the next stage i would be grateful.

He may not tank off when i lead him out. What do i put on him to take him out. He has always been used to a rope through the mouth, i dislike this idea, but i just dont know what way to go for the best. I dont want to undo what i have achieved so far.

Should i take him out , turn him round and put him back in. or should i take him to his stable and reward him with a wonderful breakfast???

kind regards

Raven xx
:) :)

Sweet Raven

18th May 2003, 10:34 PM

not sure where this pic will go, im not sure how to get the little pics on the side.

chapsi

18th May 2003, 11:56 PM

I don't know if this can be of any help to you. I feel rather innadequate to give you advice, as I am much less experienced than you, horsewise.
I would like to suggest that you read a book, "Talking with Horses" by Henry Blake. One of the situations that Blake addresses rather a lot is what he calls the "gentling process", a way of gaining the horse's trust. He does it, carrying a bucket of feed all the way from the field into the yard, allowing the horse to follow freely, head tucked in the bucket (he describes the procedure). He also refers to "uncatchable horses", a sort of problem horse that he use to deal with. It's worth reading it, in particular with a horse like yours. Kelly Marks has also a booklet "Catching horses made easy".
Obviously your boy is way bigger and stronger than mine. When I take mine out of the stable, he is keen to come out, but not keen to go in the shed to be groomed or tacked. He tries to evade (who can blame him? he just wants to run and graze), but soon as I feel his step getting faster, I start circling him. Every time he tries to run, I circle and by the time we are both finished, he is in the shed. I used to take him out of the stable in his halter, but nowardays I need to put his lead rope around his nose.
It's hard enough when we get your horse, we tend to build high expectations, imagine to own our dream hors, and suddenly he reveals unexpected problems and attitudes. Then we ask for advice, sometimes hoping for the fast solution. When this advice comes, sometimes it's so objective and rational, that words can sound harsh.
I just want to say to you, not to feel deshearted by the advice given.
I have a horse that can be a handful for someone like me. 3 months after I bought him, I poured my heart out to NR users. Some of the advice given was sound, encouraging, other sounded the other way around. Now, looking back, I feel that NR people are very important on the whole, they can provide you with a safety net when you are feeling most vulnerable. At that time, I had people that tried to be helpful, but their words were not what I wanted to hear- but others, in spite of being "spot on", were caring and it made a difference. This was back in September... my horse and I are still together. When the tuff gets going, I get friends from all over the world who are caring and can support me, even being critical. That generates such a well-being feeling around me. :)

Alison+Rio

19th May 2003, 10:52 AM

Im sorry if anyone has suggested this as i didnt read all of the replys. A few months ago in one of the magazines i had been reading, was an article about horses that were terrified of being turned out. With him being a stallion that may mean he has never been properly turned out before. It wasnt clear from your post if the problems started before or after you first turned him out, it sounded like after. The horse in the article used to run blindly through fences etc to try and get away from being outside, i think he used to run in any direction not just back to the stable! Maybe something like this is affecting your guy.

My mare doesnt seem to like being in a stable and jumps about and is a pain until i take her out! I dont know why she was fine in the stable with her last owner but its not a problem for me, she lives out 24/7 and is happy in all weather!

Sorry if you looked into this or if someone else has suggested it! Im glad its starting to get better for the both of you!

ps. Have you tried lunging in his bridle or with 2 lunge lines?

helencheshire

19th May 2003, 11:26 AM

Oh Raven..I'm so happy for you!..

I have been reading all the posts here..(while eating my sandwiches lol!) And I agree with you how sometimes you just feel like you are doing everything you possibley can!

In my eyes I think that It was a case of him moving and unsettling him considering he had been in his last home 10years!..I dont suspose you can explain to a horse whats happening..he has lost his herd of mares ect and most probabley he still felt like a stallion with them.
It certainley sounded like he was fretting in the field..

With the catching problem you dont know if he was already a sod for it as some horses just are!

It sounds like all your hard work and peciverence has finally paid of..it can only go better now..

It seems he has understood you are now his friend, and seems he trusts you now..you are the carrot bearer!

Lovely pics!

I to love cobs as you prob guessed and they certainley have attitude.!

All the best

Helen xx

Sweet Raven

19th May 2003, 12:17 PM

Chapsi:- hi nice to hear from you. Unfortunately in our yard it is not possible to just let a horse follow you around from the field. I wish it was that simple. It is sort of what he was used to just being able to walk in from the field to his stable. Once i have managed to lead him safely we can work on his routine. I cant even start one at the moment as despite him coming to the fence and letting me do all what i achieved yesterday, the crunch will come when i get a lead rope on him and walk him out of the field.

I have appreciated peoples advice. Just not good with criticism !!!, but i have worked with what has been said.

Alison and Rio. Thank you for your suggestions. Murphy doesnt have a fear of fields. he spent the last 8 months turned out to graze with a stable in the field. He was cut 8 months ago so he was able to be turned out with other horses. I think he was trying to get to the mares field and just had to get through a couple of our fences to achieve it. (luckily he didnt - theyd have killed him).

I have lunged him a few times, always in his bridle. I have now got a Robert Maxwell halter especially for doing this and hope it works. I have to watch the video yet to understand truly how it works. IM hopeful.

Helen. Your post made me smile. Im glad someone understands how Cobs are and that they can be bloody minded, its not always to do with fear and anxiety. body language does tell us an awful lot and by not showing any of these signs i couldnt prepare myself for the take offs he managed to achieve.

We have certainly come a fair way since last week. im heading down there now, so will see what happens today. I just dont want to undo all that has been accomplished and loose his trust. Fingers crossed.

kind regards .........Raven x:)

cvb

19th May 2003, 12:35 PM

something Monty Roberts said - trauma is what the horse thinks is traumatic, not what we might think. And it is different for every horse.

Plus there is work which suggests it takes a long while for horses to adjust to a big change like this. (6 -12 months). But it sounds like your guy is now starting to do some rapid adjusting - which is a good sign !

You asked what to do for the next step e.g. to be able to lead in and out. My answer would be - whatever makes it safe. That may mean leading in and out in a bridle, or with your new headcollar of whatever. I would certainly advise gloves for you !

But if you can 'practise' somewhere - working on his awareness and respect of you, that should help as well.

My mare can get a bit above herself - to say the least - she decided to do a disappearing act while I was lunging her outside just yesterday. I think I am beginning to work out her trick - that she relies on having tension in the line so if I stop that, I can stop her (i.e. I need to keep a bit of slack when she first tries to go, and then ask to stop with intermittent pressure). Anyway - when leading she does know where/how etc she is supposed to behave - but sometimes when she is full of herself, you need to remind her every few strides. Just asking her to stop, back a few steps, or whatever to get her back to the 'right' position (not ahead of me !).

I believe quite a few of the people who work with difficult horses do this - just quietly and calmly reposition the horse where you want them, and keep doing it. But also working on it in a secure area e.g. a fenced school. The idea is to keep the respect, rather than get to the point of lost control. I know it can be difficult to spot, but if you are 110% there and asking them to position every step where you say, he should start to learn, respect and get rewarded by being ablt to relax a little.

Good luck !

Sweet Raven

19th May 2003, 02:52 PM

Hi CVB

Do you know, id not even considered wearing gloves, but i am now going to try.

As he is out in a field at the moment, i dont want to do too much fussing around his head, so i certainly dont think i could attempt putting a bridle on, or the chifney out in the field. All i feel i can do without disturbing the little trust he has gained in me is putting on a lead rope. Im sure if i have some snacks to hand he may focus on those as he is a very greedy horse. it may just help me get to the stable. To date, he has never bolted on the way back to the stable just when ive been walking down the yard.

He walks calmly and sensibly out of his stable and i walk at his shoulder, talking to him. It comes out of the blue that he suddenly charges off. It can happen on the way to the field, in the outdoor school or in the indoor school. There doesnt seem to be a pattern as to when or why he decides to do it. From what Welshie people have suggested he is just trying to assert his dominance over me ......because he knows at the moment he can. The chifney has helped me have control and he doesnt persist with trying once he has been corrected, but again, this is not the kindest method that i would wish to continue with.

He bounded up to the fence again today and i patted his head and touched his head collar without him moving a foot. His confidence is growing. I just want the next move to be a smooth one. he follows me around the field, so maybe i could put a lead rope on and walk him around his field for starters. If he decides to go, then im not sure where to go from there. I so much want to work this out so we have good times together.

take care, best wishes

Raven:)

Tootsie4U

19th May 2003, 04:37 PM

Hi all -

I dont think its a matter of fear, confusion, or anything on your part. He's just living his life in the way he knows how. Give him time, things will calm down and from what you said, you actually have a very good beginning.

This horse was a stallion! Natural stallion behavior is to ASSERT his authority to any horse who can, will, or may try to over step his authority! In addition, this poor guy has been thrown (from his point of view - I know you try to do your best) into a whole new lifestyle where everyone is suspect!

Horses will be horses and late gelded geldings will act like stallions for a long time! Be happy that he is a saint in your company!

Be careful to not over analyze horses. You will most always miss the obvious :)

chapsi

19th May 2003, 11:17 PM

Cvb, I agree with you're saying
Plus there is work suggests it takes a long while for horses to adjust to a big change like this. (6 -12 months)

It's 10 1/2 months since I have my horse, and he is still difficult. However, looking back, a bit of his ice is just now starting to melt. All is soooooo slowly, so much, that the tiniest thing makes a whole difference!

Raven, by he sounds of it, your horse is getting to bond with you at an extremely fast rate. You're very lucky.:)

ros

20th May 2003, 06:23 AM

Perhaps for leading you could use a lunge line attached to the headcollar with the bridle over the top (usually less fussy if you take the noseband off); you can clip the lunge line to the headcollar when you catch him. then slip the bridle on afterwards and lead him from that. If he does tank off you have the lunge line to fall back on, which should give you a bit more confidence, and if you can manage to pull him round in a circle he won't feel he's got clean away from you.

If he does set off, try to keep to the side so you can swing him round, rather than allowing him to pull directly against you. (Easier said than done, sometimes :rolleyes: )

Sweet Raven

20th May 2003, 03:53 PM

Hi all

Well, i managed to put a lead rope on his this morning while he was stood being stroked, he did try and run but only as far as the lead rope went and then he stopped and came back to me.

I managed, with the aid of a carrot, to walk him around near the gate a little. I only did 5 minutes then released him and gave him another carrot.

I sat and watched the Robert Maxwell video last night showing you how to use the halter.

In the next hour we are going to bring him into the indoor school and try him on it. A few of the girls at the yard have used it to great effect, so i shall see how it goes.

The lunge line sounds a great idea and i will bring him in on that.....accompanied by my gloves!!

Will let you know how it goes. Its been really encouraging getting everyones opinion. If anyone fancies a private chat sometime Im usually around.

take care.............Raven:)

Sweet Raven

21st May 2003, 06:00 PM

Well i just cant stop grinning. I feel so proud of Murphy (and myself).

yesterday afteroon i tried the Robert Maxwell halter technique. Murphy rushed up to the fence to say hi, (something i never thought he'd do). I put the lead rope on and loosly wrapped it over the field gate. I put on the halter and then removed the headcollar.

I started off in the field and walked him round, he made an attempt to tank off but realised that it wasnt the thing to do. As soon as he stopped pulling against the rope the pressure released and so his comfort level was restored. He never made a further attempt while out in the field.

I tried all the things that were advised and walked left, right, round in a circle. stood him, asked him to walk backwards............he did all of this on a loose rope with no pressure whatsoever.

I felt brave enough to take him out of the field. I of course gave him lots of praise and he actually seemed to be listening to me.

I took him around the yard and walked into the indoor school.

I asked him to go round and he made his second attempt to tank off, again with no success. He came straight back to me and lowered his head. I stroked his forehead and he did actually lick his lips and start chewing. wow, i was amazed. We did some more work, not much but enough for us both to know that we were comfortable. I led him out of the school and another walk around the yard.

I was just so pleased, i really felt this was such a break through. I put him in his stable and gave him a wonderful meal.

After 45 minutes his head was over the stable door and he started to call out. As i walked towards him, he actually nickered softly and lowered his head. Well, i am an emotional person at the best of times but this brought a lump to my throat. He hugged into my shoulder and i stroked his nose and scratched his neck.

I put him back on the halter and we walked back to the field. I released him and made a fuss. He lowered his head for me to take of the halter and replace the headcollar. He never made an attempt to run off. Just stood there with me. I feel so lucky to have made this achievement and im so proud of him.

Today i did the same thing, but he never made one attempt to move away from me. I tried some more intricate movements and i didnt have one slightest bit of pressure on him at all. I put his headcollar on so i could tie him. I gave him a real good brush he seemed to be throughly enjoying it. I kept looking up at him and catching him watching me, it was kind of nice to see him looking at me with his gentle kind eyes and a forelock that goes all the way down his nose.

I just love him more and more and i feel such a fantastic achievement from little over a week ago. I'll have had him two weeks on Saturday and i feel like ive conquered everest.

I'll continue to work with him and when i feel ready, i'll take him for a walk out of the yard and out into the countryside where some of our smaller hacks are. I'll introduce him to his environment slowly and get him accustomed to seeing where he is and what is about.

He's an amazing boy ..........Next step is how he behaves when i ride him !!!! So far ive had no problems, but in a new environment i will just ease into it and take it slowly.

Thank you to everyone that has given me advice and support. I expected to have had to work so much longer with him to achieve this. Spending time on the ground with him just letting him get to know me has worked wonders and with the help of the halter i feel we have reached a new starting point.

He is much happier im sure........and i certainly am.

Take care and best wishes

Raven xx