foal training

[nakedescapee]

Hello everyone... here I go again! (you are all so patient with my stupidity)

OK... so now I have this foal, Chance, 1 week old. I have been working with her and she was doing ok with body restraint... until the last couple of days.

Mom is very protective and makes my work a little harder trying to make sure she doesn't come after me, but I keep her on a lead-line while I work with baby and watch her closely. She has some trust issues and won't let anyone near her or the foal except me so having assistance might make it worse.

Chance was letting me pick up her feet a little bit, but is now becoming more resistant to it. She will come up to me in the paddock and I have even brushed her. She doesn't mind my petting her face and pulling on her ears. I have put my finger in her mouth too.

But now the filly is nipping and kicking at me. She likes to move all around me and bump into me like she is trying to get my attention. First, I thought she was just being playful but, now, I'm beginning to worry.

I know I need to stop this behavior before it goes any further, but how do I without making her scared of me and mom mad?

As usual, any and all suggestions are appreciated.

Ginny

[maverick927]

I don't know that much about foals but I know you shouldn't hassle them too much in the beginning. If you do they can become stubborn and think you are a play thing. They can also think they are a human, or that you are a horse. In some books it says just to limit time with them as their mum will teach them the basics to start with.

[nakedescapee]

Thanks for your reply, maverick927.

I have read the opposite of your suggestion. Imprinting, whole body restraint and halter training should begin in the first week or two so that it is less traumatic when real training begins.

But, perhaps, I am messing with Chance too much and she is getting resentful... I just don't know what I'm doing. :(

Ginny

[janet hakeney]

Look at this link for some imprinting info. http://www.horseseye.com/imprint3.htm

[casey]

Hi there nakedescapee. (love the name) You doing exactly the right thing. You should imprint, but only work for 15 mins each time. (twice a day)
With the biting think. persevere... The foal is finding its strength. If you back off now, it will learn early on it can push you around.
Just watch the signs, foals only have short attention spans. good luck.

[galadriel]

Sounds like baby is trying to play with you. You should let her, because you do NOT want her to think people are someone she can play with; as she gets bigger and stronger that will become a problem.

I don't know how to go about maintaining discipline with a baby. Definitely outside my range of experience. But! There's a site with a recommendation for some good baby books:
http://www.horse-sense.org/archives/workfoal.htm

g'luck with baby :)

[nakedescapee]

Hi ya'll

Thanks for the great input and the links. I don't have the time to handle the baby before work so I'm limited to twice in the afternooon. Besides, the minute she gets out of the stall, she is running around playing, bucking, kicking up. She even plays with her mom's tail... very comical!

I was thinking about getting her one of those horse toys... the ball with a handle on it. Maybe she is bored and if she had a toy to play with, then she would be less likely to want to play with me. Does that sound crazy?

[galadriel]

It's not crazy, it's what they were designed for (playful horses).

On the other hand, baby is currently discovering her world--you raised a human, I'm sure you remember the stage where baby tried to put everything in her mouth, and fingers in the electric sockets, and so on. Baby's current strongest urge is to play, with anything that will play back. She's exploring the world and learning what is and isn't acceptable. Unless you can convince her that it's unacceptable to play with you, she'll keep trying. DON'T smack her, even lightly--to a playful, energetic horse, this can look like an invitation to play.

My bitty baby horse experience is pretty small, but watching one baby as he grew up I saw how his mom dealt with it when she didn't want to play: she turned her butt to him, and just kept it pointed at him (turned, backed up, stepped sideways) till he gave up and went to play by himself. I don't think this would be a safe method for a person at all. The colt in that scenerio was rearing and bodyslamming his mother trying to get her to come play; she didn't scold him, just didn't react. Since you don't want to end up with a 4-month-old rearing at you & bodyslamming you, you should probably find a book *now* that helps you teach her that you're not a playmate. (Good luck with that :) )

Is there any possibility that there's someone about Chance's size that she could play with sometimes? Do any of your neighbors have foals? It's good for babies to socialize and to play.

Even if she only gets to play with Mom till she's weaned, you should at least think about what to do with her then--it's best for babies to go somewhere where they can play, hopefully with others their own age. Do you know any farms nearby who breed and who might have weanlings that you could put Chance out with for a couple of months, when she's weaned?


Oh hey, pondering in the back of my mind about babies & playing, i've recalled a site about handling biting horses; teaching them not to bite without hitting them. This isn't exactly like handling a foal, but you could probably use the concepts in it when baby wants to play inappropriately with those around her:
http://www.horsekeeping.com/Horse_Newsletter/October_2000.htm#biting

[Peace]

Wow, you are in a ticklish spot - you have to teach baby (and quickly, before she gets any bigger!) not to be so rough with you, but you still have to keep the trust of her formerly-abused mama.

For the nipping thing, what I've done with the bitty babies at the barn is to push on the end of their muzzle with my index fingertip and say "aaah-aaaah." I try not to move suddenly or use a harsh tone, but be firm - kind of like correcting a human baby. With slightly bigger babies (like our now 8 month old), I've seen the "nose massage" Cherry Hill described used to good effect (technique described on the last link galadriel posted).

The bouncing-off-humans and kicking stuff is a little trickier. What we mostly do when they're her age is just keep a sharp eye out and get out of the way! The babies I've known just seem to eventually grow out of this stage on their own - those that don't get corrected for it when they're a little older. But I'm no expert! Maybe someone else has a better technique for the "mosh-pit" stage of foal-raising?:)

[nakedescapee]

LOL! ...the "mosh-pit" stage... great analogy, Peace!

I have been to so many sites for "foal training," but Cherry Hill is the one that sticks in my mind. As soon as I saw horsekeeping.com, I recognized it. I have to go into town tonight so I am planning to check the book store for her book and others on foal training.

I won't smack the baby at this age. I am working myself to death trying to gain its confidence and I don't want to un-do all my hard work. No worries there.

As for getting out of the way, I have become an expert dodger! :D

I read somewhere that a long, low pitched "no" will discourage unwanted behavior. Yesterday, I tried it with limited success... but she did listen. I like the idea of the finger on the nose.

I agree that she is just checking out her new world. Instead of bitting me yesterday, she was licking my shirt... just tasting it.

I also found that, with the kicking thing, if I put my hand firmly on her rump and say "no" it discouraged her. Of course, I rapidly move aside at the same time!

There will be two other foals coming back to the farm with their moms in a couple of weeks, but they are race horses that belong to the farm owner and they never get handled until they are 2 years old. They won't be sharing a field with my guys, but maybe I could let them into the paddock to play occasionally, provided I can seperate them out again. It would be nice for her to have a playmate her own age. I hadn't considered that she will miss out on important horsey social lessons. :(

On the other hand, some of the best behaved human children I have seen were those raised mostly around adults. I'll have to check with my farm owner to see what he thinks about letting the babies out together.

More great ideas... Thanks ya'll! :)

Ginny

[casey]

Oh another thing, dont smack the baby... I was reading a richard maxwell book and he advises you to squeal and act like its mother would when baby oversteps the mark.

Just dont do it in public, or they will take you to the nut house. lol

[nakedescapee]

Thanks casey. I don't believe in hitting people or animals. There are too many other ways to deal with inappropriate behavior... it's just a question of finding the right one at the right time.

I like the idea of acting like another horse would to discourage bad behavior... I'll let you know how it goes. :)

Ginny

[lisae]

and will be again next spring - just sent my mare for breeding today! I had very good luck with Mara, our filly who just turned one. I used her constantly itchy babycoat as a training tool - everytime she did something right, she got a good scratch! I worked on always having her face me, anytime she turned her butt towards me, I'd guide it away; I worked on "stand" a lot; if she bit, I made an awful 'game show buzzer' sound and moved her nose back into position. If she got really carried away, (kicking, rearing, or chest butting) I sent her right over to her mother, who is a fantastic help and knows what to do with rude babies! Mama's pinned ears let her know she was out of line playing with humans that way. Mara hated to be sent away from the attention so she caught on fairly quick. Your mare sounds more fearful of people so may not help with the discipline!

The worst she ever got was that she started coming up from behind me and hip-checking me, her hipbone right into mine, and almost took me down once! she got a bucket of water splashed on her for that (I was carrying it, it was mostly a reflex response). At that point, I thought she was ready for the distraction of our then two-year gelding in the pasture mix, and he kept her mind off playing with me from then on.

Try to keep reminding her that you can move her, but she's not allowed to move you. Mara used to just step over and push me, and I think I stepped away from her once in response before thinking, hum, bad idea. After that, if she pushed against me, or tried to rub me aside, even gently, I would ask HER to step over two steps and then scritch her as reward. She stopped pushing and it's a treat now, I've had compliments about her ground manners.

Foals are really fun and they do grow out of a lot of the really rowdy stuff. They can grasp the concept that humans are real stick in the muds for rough playing but can be fun at grooming time, and later - dinner hour! You sound like you're doing great with her, keep up the good work.

[nakedescapee]

Thank you so much for your wisdom, lisae. It sounds like you have a lot of experience with foal training.

I have started making a low pitched growl to show disapproval and it seems to be working. My filly seems to learn quickly when I apply the rules that have been so expertly laid out. I like the idea of making her move a couple of steps when she pushes against me... then, of course, the reward. I try not to back down but mom has been making that difficult. The mare is a very good mom, but will come after me if she sees any sign of distress from the baby. Though, she has calmed down some in the past couple of days... Thank Goodness!

I had a great success with mom and baby yesterday afternoon. I actually got a halter on her without getting myself killed by mom! HOO-RAY!! The whole body restraint technique described by Cherry Hill has prooved to be indespensible.

With the halter on, baby was acting like a little kid playing dress up... so mature. :p

I only left the halter on her for about 20 minutes while I cleaned the stall and baby had no problems coming up to me with the halter on. I even made an adjustment to the buckle with mom standing several feet away. (I think baby wanted me to take it off.) And her mom was o.k. after she saw that baby wasn't going to be injured.

Finally, I am seeing some progress and results for my work and worry. To call it rewarding doesn't begin to describe the relief I feel. :)

Thanks ya'll.

Ginny

[nakedescapee]

Hi ya'll
You have all given me so much input, advice and links to read... it seems to have paid off. Chance is 3 weeks old now and is letting me take the halter on and off, leading a little bit with some encouragement, and lets me pick up all 4 feet without concern. She has stopped the nipping and kicking for the most part. The thing that really helped with it was a combination of a finger on her nose with a buzzer sound and pushing her away back to mom. She has grown by leaps and bounds both in size and manners. It has taken loads of work but it has been worth every second. Now my farm owner wants me to start working with his sucklings too... like I know what I'm doing... HA! If he only knew that you all are my secret weapon. :D

[galadriel]

Fabulous :)

[Peace]

Congratulations!:) You're making really impressive progress with her! How's her mom doing? Is her confidence increasing also?

[nakedescapee]

yes it is fabulous! btw, Galadriel, how is your move going?

[nakedescapee]

Hi Peace.
Mom is still very protective. I can only work with baby when mom is tied or blocked out of the shed we use and then she stands right there and never lets baby out of her sight, but she doesn't interfere. I have started picking mom's feet again but she is still very kicky about the rear feet and even pulled back and broke her halter the other day. I guess I'll be back to square one and pouring over the books to fix her now... it's always something!

[galadriel]

Originally posted by nakedescapee
yes it is fabulous! btw, Galadriel, how is your move going?

Eh, so-so. Been posting about this weekend's house searching:
http://newrider.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20334

Thanks for asking :)

Good luck with mama.

[Peace]

I have started picking mom's feet again but she is still very kicky about the rear feet and even pulled back and broke her halter the other day.

:eek: That must have been pretty scary! Y'know, I have problems with Quanah offering his back feet, so let me know if you find any particularly helpful techniques for solving this one!:)

I don't know if this applies to your girl, but I have found Quanah is better about offering his back feet if he's in the enclosed wash rack as opposed to the barn aisle. I suspect he may be uncomfortable about reducing his mobility if something can sneak up behind him.:) But I also know horses who get sort of claustrophobic in a wash rack, and prefer more open space. Horses - go figure.:rolleyes: :D

[nakedescapee]

It was a little scary, but I was more annoyed with her than scared. After I turned her loose, she was fine about coming back up to me in the field, so no real harm was done I hope.

Roulette was much better about her back feet in a smaller space but, since moving to the new boarding farm, I no longer have access to a wash stall. I have put up removable boards in the shed to create a smaller space (approx 10w x 16d) and eye screws to cross tie, but she still has a lot of mobility in there.

It is encouraging to know that Quanah reacted the same way in a large space... knowledge is power. It sounds like I need to build the space in to create a wash stall with removeable panels to open up the shed in the evenings. My farm owner has given me a relatively loose rein on modifications so I guess I'll put my tools back in my car.... Uggghh!

[galadriel]

When I'm working with a horse who's iffy about hind feet, I do it this way:

Starting on one side, I put my hand on his chest, run my hand down his front leg, pick up the front hoof, and reward well for it (whatever reward the horse will associate with "good horsie"--verbal or a scratch or a treat). I usually have verbal command for picking up the hoof ("gimme hoof").

I then start with my hand on his chest, run it back along the barrel (same side), and then slide it down the hind leg. This does 2 things: 1) it is similar to picking up the front hoof, and will help horsie understand/deal with it better; 2) it gives horsie lots of warning that you're about to touch his hind leg.

My goal at first is to touch the leg without horsie picking it up and shaking it. If he is relaxed, he gets the exact same reward as for picking up front hoof. If he picks it up, *I* usually make it uncomfortable (AAAAP! and grab it till horsie stops wiggling it); if you're uncomfortable with that approach, you can simply "AAAAP!" until horsie stops.

When horsie is dealing well with having hind leg stroked, then I ask for the leg to be picked up. Same deal: 1st do front hoof, reward, then start with hand at chest, run hand along barrel and down leg. Now, moving along, I stop at fetlock and squeeze. I say "gimme hoof." If horse calmly gives me hoof, horse gets reward and gets to be done for the day. If not, same as above (I scold and hold hoof until horse stops, then release; you may wish to simply scold until hoof is still again). Repeat until he gets it right once, then he is done. Next time, same deal. After a while, he may begin to offer you the hoof when he knows you are picking out hooves; this is not the same as pulling it away, but showing off that he knows what you're doing and trying to be helpful :)

Remember that as with anything, horses do not necessarily associate something they have learned in the front with the back, or on the left with the right. Just because he knows how to do something on the left, doesn't mean that he will understand if you ask for the same thing on the right. If you can make the association obvious (THIS is the same thing as THAT) with repetition and with the same kind of starting out/command, you can usually get a learned behavior to work front/back/left/right. You just have to TEACH it in front...and in back...and left...and right.

[nakedescapee]

I'll give it a try, Galadriel (along with changing the shed configuration.) I have been pretty much doing what you described and rewarding with a treat. (Roulette will do anything for food!) ;)

When I try to do her back feet, I run my hand down her side, hip and leg. But she swings her butt around in the open space. When I finally get her into a a position where she can't swing anymore and run my hand down her leg, I can only get about half way down before she cow kicks at me.

I think a part of the problem is my chasing her around into a stopped position, that irritates her until she kicks... entirely my fault. :(

I think I have devised a building plan so I can cross-tie and keep her in a smaller space. Hopefully it will work... (fingers crossed.)

[galadriel]

With training a horse, it's usually better to stay relaxed than to pick a fight and win it ;) If you know where she's going to kick, then you can stop just before you get there. She's still relaxed and you can reward her. With time, hopefully you can get a little further & a little futher...and when she kicks, she DOESN't get a treat (if she's really food oriented, that should help her figure it out).

[Cobby]

Hi nakedescapee,
It could be worth trying to get her used to having her legs handled by stuffing an old glove and attaching it to a stick. You can use this 'artificial arm' to gently touch her legs (or any other no go areas) whilst keeping out of the kick zone.
Good luck.

[nakedescapee]

Howdy.

Well, I tried a "dry-run" of my new cross-tie and shed configuration yesterday. I had a lot more success since I didn't have to chase her around and work us both into a frazzle. I am more relaxed when the situation is more controlled. Relaxing is defintely the way to go. :D

I will build the "wash stalls" this weekend and, hopefully, that will be that (knock wood!)

btw: the artificial arm almost sounds like a good idea, but one of my mares is blind in one eye, so it would probably really freak her out. Since my horses are rescue cases, I don't know much of their history... someone could have beat them with a stick so it could make matters worse, but thanks for the suggestion.