A Beloved Horse that you can never, ever ride anymore...... What do you do??? [Archive]

Pale Moon

27th Aug 2009, 04:30 PM

Right, although this might seem, by some, as a controversial post, it is a subject really close to my heart, as it is happening to me personally, so please, please don't slate me. I'm honestly just asking for opinions.

This isn't happening in my life right now... but I am thinking forwards a few months, worst case scenario.

Banjo was diagnosed with ringbone 3 years ago. Since then, with time and a wonderful supplement called Pernamax, he has hardly had a day lame. He now HAS gone lame.

This is my problem. Whilst I will do all I can to make him sound again, Banjo is a full livery horse. He is predominantly a RIDING horse - not the only reason that I have him, but I also have two sharers who, if he can never be ridden again, will leave. Fine, fair enough. I can cope with that.

But I can never, ever, have him on DIY.

I work extremely long hours, and have no time for DIY. It has never bothered me before.... I can afford it - I pay the yard staff to look after him and I go down and ride. I cannnot put him on DIY, or turn him away for a couple of years on grass, because he is an ex-laminitic. I am quite prepared to spend as much time as is necessary for him to come sound enough to ride, but what if he doesn't???? What do I do??

I cannot, realistically, keep a horse on full livery, when I don't ride. It just isn't feasible, as much as I love him (and I DO - be under no illusions..... I love him more than anything.... apart from maybe Lee and Gemma....;)) - but I cannot justify spending £650.00 on keeping a horse as just a pet. And that is all he would be, if I could never ride him again.

Before anyone jumps on me and says that I am an awful cow for saying this, just put yourselves in my position. I know that I am thinking into the future and hey - maybe he will come sound again in a couple of weeks, but if he doesn't - I am going to have to make some extremely difficult choices in the next 6 months or so.

If the prognosis is that he can't be ridden anymore, what are the alternatives?? Would someone take him on as a companion??? Could I put him into a retirement home and if so, does anyone know how much this will cost?

I am heartsick at posting this. Hopefully, it won't come to this... yet... but arthritis is a degenerative condition and I know that it is only going to get worse.

Please. Before someone slates me for having a horse that ride and can do nothing else with... read my earlier comments...

mikh

27th Aug 2009, 04:33 PM

If he were mine, I'd attempt the diy route on a yard with assistance regardless of the hours I worked

NuttySpaniel

27th Aug 2009, 04:35 PM

I have no advise but I do really feel for you. I will keep my fingers crossed he will be ok.

((hugs))

:)

Cazie

27th Aug 2009, 04:39 PM

Id go down the retirement route, give him a happy old age.. advertise him as a companion or.. I would send him to a retirement home.. cost is half the amount you are paying for full livery.. Find a field to rent and pay someone to go look after him maybe.. depends on your commitment to him. We all feel and think differently on this subject and there are loads of these threads.. not saying yours isn't important but you could read the other similar ones for advice.. I hope you manage to solve your problem and keep your horse.

s4sugar

27th Aug 2009, 04:39 PM

I totally understand.

IMO if he is lame and in any discomfort he should be PTS.

Charity retirement homes are swamped with horses but there are places at ( Starting at I think) about £1,500 per year + vet that do retirement livery which may be an option?

xx-laura-xx

27th Aug 2009, 04:41 PM

Hi,

If my boy was unable to be ridden I would definatley keep him on DIY regardless of how many hours worked. If I was in your position and could only have full loan, then i would give up riding and keep him as i always have, there are more things more important than riding.

I would however look at other options, such as loaning as a companion or turning him away at grass but under no circumstances would he be sold. You hear so many horror stories of unsound horses being sold on as ridden etc I wouldnt be able to risk it. Failing that PTS would be the next option.

I am lucky though in that I know if anything did happen to me, i could turn to his previous owner to either help find him a suitable home or take him herself if she was in a position to do so.

Shelby&Me

27th Aug 2009, 04:46 PM

Is grass livery with restricted grazing an option??

Pale Moon

27th Aug 2009, 04:47 PM

If he were mine, I'd attempt the diy route on a yard with assistance regardless of the hours I worked

And then what??

My yard look after my horse as it he were their own....... there is asolutely no dispute about his care... that is a given

And before you say that there are yards near me, that can take care of Banjo - NO THERE AREN'T. The yard I am on is wonderful, in every way,

CER1389

27th Aug 2009, 04:50 PM

I cannot comment on your behalf Pale Moon, everyones circumstances are different.

What would I do though? .... pts. Would be the only option I could live with.
If you gave your horse away as a companion how do you know it's not going to get too much grass and lami again? How do you know people aren't going to ride etc. Too many what ifs.

No_Angel

27th Aug 2009, 04:51 PM

Personally, I wouldn't have a horse if I couldn't look after it myself, but if you aren't willing to have your horse on full livery if it can't be ridden either send him away to a retirement home or PTS, it would be better than loaning or selling where you cannot guarantee his care or future.

Stassy

27th Aug 2009, 04:51 PM

You are not awful I have been in the same situation. I loved my horse to bits but he could not be ridden (or driven) ever again, he could not even be used as an occasional light hack in the future. I earn a below average wage and I couldn't justify paying to keep a horse on livery and just have him as a pet when I would like to do things with my horse. People can have their opinions but I'm not rich, I don't have help from other people, I don't have my own land and the expense of keeping a pet horse especially over winter is too great. So therefore I found a home for him as a companion to another horse that can also not be ridden. It is heartbreaking, and its not something I woke up thinking one day it was a very difficult decision to make.

Cazie

27th Aug 2009, 04:53 PM

nat17

27th Aug 2009, 04:58 PM

Pale Moon,

I am in you 'worse case senario postion' right now. I have been for 8 years.

Minnie was 11 when she had to be retired, due to servere arthrisits in her hock, in all three joints. She can never be ridden again.

I only had her 6 months before she had to be retired, there was a few things going on legally, basically that her previous owner had a cortazone injection to make her appear sound, then 6 months it wore off. I could give her this injection again, but we all know the likely hood of a dales pony getting lami from that injection is about 90%, then that really would be the end as she would not cope with being in all the time.

It has been a struggle to keep Minnie and get another horse to ride. Finacially and time wise, on DIY it was hard, so full livery there would be no chance of having one to ride as well.

I do beleive in taking care of your responsibilities though, whether it be a older horse needing to be retired, or in this situation. Although I believe that, I would not judge you for making the right dession for you and your horse.

There are such things as 'retirement' livery, can be around £40 per week including trimming etc but these tend to be turned out horses rather than full livery/stabled.

I would never ever send the horse off to be a companion, unless it is someone you know and you 'loan' it rather than giving it away or selling it.
There are so very bad people out there who are good actors and do bad things to suffering horses, like bute them up and sell them as fit hunters to anyone that is after a cheapo. I have been a victim of this and have been involved in a court case with 60 others, its a regular thing and I would rather pts than ever do that again.

I loved Minnie the minuite I saw her, and love her so much now, even though I can not ride her, she gives me so much pleasure still and has such a charector that I have tears in my eyes thinking I would ever lose her. I had to sell my ridden horse Podge for a few reasons but cost was the biggest, I couldnt afford full livery with 2 when I first moved, so Podge had to go. Minnie is my responsibility, I bought her, almost for better or worse.

I wont judge you, either way, its a terrible thing to have to think about, and if you keep him, you will have to make sacrafices for him until he dies or you PTS.

I dont envy you, I know how hard it is...:(

Cortrasna

27th Aug 2009, 05:00 PM

I really feel for you Pale Moon and think you are being very sensible in weighing up your options now rather than a knee jerk reaction when/if things get worse?

I am VERY fortunate that I am in a position to keep my old retired gelding at home with me and the donks for his companions - but really dont know what on earth I would do in your position - its very difficult for you I think - and you know your horse and your circumstances best and whatever you decide Im sure it will be right for you and the horse. Good luck and hope things dont turn out as bad as you are dreading.

Stassy

27th Aug 2009, 05:00 PM

I don't think from palemoons post that finances are the problem...she can offord to keep her horse on full livery, just not if she can't ride him..

I wasn't referring to PM's finances I was talking about mine, I'm referring to the fact I've been in the same situation and she did say she couldn't justify keeping a horse on full livery that she can't ride rather like me.

Cazie

27th Aug 2009, 05:24 PM

I wasn't referring to PM's finances I was talking about mine, I'm referring to the fact I've been in the same situation and she did say she couldn't justify keeping a horse on full livery that she can't ride rather like me.

I still think it is different, in your case you couldn't afford the livery and therefore had little option.. palemoon says that she can afford the livery just not justify it. So the situation as far as I see it is worlds apart. I totally understand if a person can not afford the livery and they then would have some even more difficult decisions to make.. I honestly believe that Palemoon has more than one option open to her.. I am guessing that is why she has asked us what we would do..

Skippys Mum

27th Aug 2009, 05:25 PM

K.T

27th Aug 2009, 05:26 PM

I still have my first horse - ive had her 13 years now - the last 2 shes been retired due to Arthritis - i think she might go on forever dispite newmarket wanted to pts on diagnosis - shes around 19 years old now.

Also i have a Shettie that the kids will grow out of in the future - he suffers with lami.

Im lucky i have my own land at home (all be it only 3 1/2 of grazing) - so where does it end??? how many can i collect ???

Its a tough one, but i think you will know whats right for you and your horse if the time comes ....

good luck

tango'smum

27th Aug 2009, 05:29 PM

i could never sell mine... or loan.... i would rent a field with a shelter or a stable...
but if the horse pony was suffering then i would do whats best for them. not me..

MagicSix

27th Aug 2009, 05:44 PM

I had to retire my brilliant mare due to arthritis when she was just 15. Thankfully I had just moved to my own land so was able to keep her and get another riding horse.

However, if I had been forced to stay on livery with a horse I could no longer ride then I don't know what I would've done - to be honest, as much as I love this mare (and beleive me I do and it is breaking my heart thinking about her being PTS before this winter comes) I think I would've ending up resenting her in a way as I would be spending all my money on a horse I could no longer ride and I love to ride - its my life.

Personally, I could never loan/sell as a companion as you don't know where they will end up. I would prefer for the horse to be quietly PTS while it was calm and settled and in minimal pain.

Good luck with your decision

Nookster

27th Aug 2009, 05:52 PM

When chinook had lami and the chance of ever being ridden again questionable i never gave thought to him going anywhere else. He was with me for life. I would give anything to have him back if he wasn't in pain and would be quite happy for him never to be ridden again

Cate Ged

27th Aug 2009, 06:08 PM

Mine stays wit me for life. Riding is not the reason that I enjoy/have horses it's the horses themselves that give me pleasure. I can't have another one at the moment due to having my old aging pony, but like my dog he is with me for life.

Everyone looks at pets differently and they have a different place in their lives. You have to make a choice that suits themselves and their lives.

Fingers crossed the best happens x

*Sez*

27th Aug 2009, 06:27 PM

I've been there with Sal, only a few months after I bought him. When he had osteomyalitis, my vet warned me that it was likely he would never make a full recovery, thus meaning he would need to retire from ridden work. From a personal point of view, I would only have my horses on DIY as doing it all is very much part and parcel of ownership for me, so I decided that no matter what he was staying with me. He was only seven at the time, and aside from the bone infection, perfectly happy and healthy and although I would miss the riding side of things, it's not a big deal for me. Besides, I had plenty of friends and family on the yard who regularly volunteered their horses for me to ride, so I knew I would still get the odd ride in. Fortunately, he did fully recover and even on his x-rays its very hard to spot that there was ever a problem.

I do see your point about keeping a "pet" horse on an expensive livery, but I suppose what it comes down to is what's more important to you? I don't mean to sound as though I'm saying that you don't love your horse, as you clearly do, but it's down to lifestyle choice. Some people consider competing very important, and therefore their horses lives reflect that. Some, like me, are quite happy just spending a few quite hours with their horses and ride when the fancy takes them. Just like some people consider having horses more important than going out and socialising, whereas others think horse-owners are mad ;) Neither is especially "right" or "wrong" and you need to decide if spending the money on livery to lose the riding is right for you. If I could afford the livery, then my choice would always be to keep my horse for the rest of its life.

If your work would make it impossible for you to retire him on DIY or grass livery, do you have a trusted friend that you could loan him to as a companion? Loaning is never an easy decision, but if you were able to see him as often as you were able, and trust that he was being cared for, I think that would probably be my first attempt.

If that really wasn't an option, then I think I would choose to PTS. It's such a risk to sell a horse who is retired from ridden work - what's to say that an owner or two down the line, he won't be undersaddle again having been sold as fit?

I really do feel for you. It's a very difficult situation to be in. Ultimately you have to do what's best for both of you.

Lisa&Lady

27th Aug 2009, 06:34 PM

If I was in this position, there is no question that my horse would stay of full livery.

Ive owned Lady for 2yrs and the majority of that has been unridden through injuries and illnesses.

I didnt buy Lady just for riding, I bought her to enjoy, and that means on the ground as well.

:)

MrKia+Me

27th Aug 2009, 06:36 PM

What a shame for you and your horse.

If he were mines he would be kept grass or DIY no matter what. You can manage a ex-lami on grass livery have seen it done. I work stupid o'clock hours sometimes and have done very much so in the past when I used to do days, nights and twilights with no pattern was hard and I was tired but it was done.

If he is in that much pain then PTS may be your option but getting rid because you can ride isnt fair on the horse the ringbone wasnt his fault.

Nikki xxxx

Chunkykiwi

27th Aug 2009, 06:39 PM

No one can tell you what to do PM, it's your decision totally and I sympathise with you completely.

All I can say is what I would do. Personally, I would keep the horses. I would never so much as consider loaning or selling. I don't think I would even consider a retirement home or similar. I would keep things exactly as they are unless the horses quality of life was even slightly compromised, in which case I would make the decision to PTS.

Magic'sMum

27th Aug 2009, 06:50 PM

Sorry but when it was me in that situation it wasnt even negotiable. They stay put. Mine are family pets first and foremost. I cant ride? Thems the breaks.

Last year it was looking possible that Arnie wasnt ever going to be safe to ride. He was 5. He was still my boy and I'd rather have him standing there looking at me as have something else I could ride.

Mine are at home but before you all think that makes it easy, it costs me far more than £650 a month to keep "home with land". I would be far better off financially in livery.

For me, horses are like dogs. Once you get them you are stuck with them for life - for better or for worse (I would have said like husbands but you can get rid of them easier;))

Hi

I'm relatively new on here but have been reading the New Rider forums on and off for a couple of years. I hope I'm not going to be shot down in flames by posting my reply on here! I have to admit I completely agree with the above post. When I bought my boy 5 years ago I knew I would be buying him with the knowledge that he would be here to stay through thick and thin. I have him on DIY livery, work full time, often not home from work till 7.30pm and am a single parent of two children. I also have a sick dad that lives with me. I have had my fair share of problems with him since last November. He's had strangles, closely followed by an acute attack of laminitis causes by toxins from the strangles and then in March this year he had a chronic attack of COPD. Unable to feed haylage because of the lami attack, I had to soak his hay. Every morning I was on the yard by 4am hauling extremely heavy nets of soaked hay, in pitch darkness cos my yard was on the mountainside and had no lights, often in the pouring rain and freezing cold temperatures. I've also been on the yard till 2am, nursing him and waiting for the vet to call. I did it then and would do it forever more, even with the knowledge that I could never ride him again. That's not why I keep him, he's here because I love him and he's part of the family. I also have a Shettie who does nothing for his keep. He will also be with me forever.
Obviously if they were ever so unwell that I had to consider euthanasia for their own well being, I would hope that I would be able to make that decision with their interests at heart rather than my own, but to euthanase for financial reasons seems a little callous to me. Perhaps DIY livery is the way forward for you. No matter how busy you are, if you truly love your horse, or any other pet for that matter, you will find the time. I know I do.

Cazie

27th Aug 2009, 07:00 PM

Hi

Unable to feed haylage because of the lami attack, I had to soak his hay. Every morning I was on the yard by 4am hauling extremely heavy nets of soaked hay,

I read in the Your Horse mag this month that it has been found that soaking hay for laminitics is not good as the extra water is bad for them.. makes a good read, quite an informed article on the condition.

notpoodle

27th Aug 2009, 07:03 PM

@palemoon: there are special retirement yards that take care of your horse completely, even for laminitics, these tend towork out cheaper than 'normal'full livery, so maybe that would be an option to consider?

as for myself, ive always had ponies on DIY and would continue do so this and keep angel, of course :) but, everyone's circumstances are different

Magic'sMum

27th Aug 2009, 07:04 PM

I read in the Your Horse mag this month that it has been found that soaking hay for laminitics is not good as the extra water is bad for them.. makes a good read, quite an informed article on the condition.

Will have to have a look at that article. Have given up soaking hay now anyway, he was still coughing badly even after a fortnight of soaking it so switched to Horsehage high fibre, Costs me £6.50 a day to feed it to him, but hey ho! :)

Annabel1

27th Aug 2009, 07:09 PM

Personally i have been in a very similar situation. My 14.2hh pony who ive had since i was 13 has had an awful lot of problems, artritis, pertinitus, laminitis, torn tendons in his back, the works! The artritis was a real issue at one point.. he come sound for a few months i'd get him back in work, get him fit and start competing again slowly, then he'd go lame again. It was a vicious circle he'd just get fit then go lame and have to have weeks off. Eventually i turned him away in a little paddock on his own for 3 months. I knew the likely hood of him staying sound was not very good, so i looked into the other options, including retiring and turning away for winter. He doesnt like rain or cold so turning away wasnt an option! I decided to retire him and keep him, i couldnt afford another horse i knew that i wouldnt be able to ride but that didnt bother me as long as Sultan was ok.

He actually did come sound but has since had more problems. However recently he has stayed sound without problems touch wood! I am now in the situation where i can have 2 horses, therefore Sultan really just hacks out now. But if it came between keeping which one even if Sultan couldnt be ridden again, it would be Sultan i would keep.

At the end of the day the decision is up to you, i would keep mine even if i couldnt ride but thats me, he is on DIY but he is incredibly high maintence and does cost alot to keep. I also have limited time. So its not like i was keeping him because he was cheap to keep and low maintence! I have spent many nights with him, ALL night when he was been poorly! As well as many other nights going up at 2 hour intervals all the way through the night. But i make it work because i want to.
I also believe dont give up hope because they can become sound even if you think they wont! So have hope. :)

cloudandmatrix

27th Aug 2009, 07:19 PM

we are facing this with matrix- i am 2 big to ride him and when we moved him he had a lot of health prblems like athirits in hock, bad back and now tendon we think. we were getting ready to start riding, to have him as a share, when he went lame. he is on rest but there is a high possibility he will never be ridden again. the best we can possibly hope for is leadrein. no more galloping and jumping like we used to. he was on field rest as livery is so expensive and we cannot do dDIY but he started pining, and got over weight so bought muzzle and was terrified of it so back to livery. he has cost us so much money, but we will keep going. he is only 8.
if he does not recover we will loan him as a companion to someone who will love him as much as i do. we will wait and see

BeachRiding

27th Aug 2009, 07:25 PM

I am sort of in this situation. When I only had Roz (he can't be ridden ever) I paid his full livery and rode horses for other people. He's not going anywhere. What if you had a yearling you couldn't ride for another 2-3 years, you certainly would still pay livery.... you would just find other horses to ride. Honestly its not that hard. I had 7 offered to me this week for free to ride. I took on one, but since I have three of my own that's the best I can do.

Howengold

27th Aug 2009, 07:26 PM

In your position Rach, I would pts.

In my own circumstances I am lucky enough to have the land and stables, and importantly the time and help from my girls to retire my ponies when they are ready and give them everything they need. We already have a retired pony in Willow and he is used as a companion to which ever horse or pony needs him and costs virtually nothing to keep apart from medication.

Big hugs huni, if I had the room to retire him with me I would to make this easier xxx

carthorse

27th Aug 2009, 07:29 PM

Mine stay. If it would mean I couldn't ride then that's a pity but hardly the end of the world.

Clava

27th Aug 2009, 07:34 PM

My old arab is retired (only 21 through injury), she will live out her days in the field just as her mother and grandma did (both into their late twenties and early thirties), but I'm lucky enough to have my own land and they are good doers. All our horses have always had a retirement - I see it as a thankyou for all those days riding, but I know I'm lucky and this is not always possible in which case I would have had them pts.

HorseHelen

27th Aug 2009, 07:37 PM

really sorry to hear the news about banjo .... really hope he comes sound again even if it means he's in light hacking work only

i can kind of understand what your going through, my first horse developed ringbone about a year after a bought her. she too was on full livery because i couldnt do DIY due to job commitments. she was bought as an all rounder but in the end was very very lame on a circle which meant no schooling at all but she was sound enough to hack. i too tried the injections but unfortunately they didnt have much affect. i turned her away for 3-4 months too and although her condition didnt improve, it didnt deteriorate at all either

in the end i was really lucky because one of her previous owners bought her back from me because she loved the horse and she wanted a horse to hack out once or twice a week with her children. so i let her go and that was the right decision for both her and me. i really miss her loads but she is happy in her new home and has been for the past two years now

so i guess what im saying is you will find a solution that suits you and banjo but i really hope he comes good for you :)

Libbyo

27th Aug 2009, 07:43 PM

Could you talk to the yard and ask them if they could do you a livery package for a retired horse, as you are happy there and your horse is happy it would be a shame to leave. I have a "barely" rideable mare. I bought her exactly 2 years ago as a 9YO, found out this year that she is actually 19. She was diagnosed last September with navicular, she trips. As a driving horse she is retired, but I can sometimes ride her for 5/10 mins in walk. She has a home for life,or until the pain comes. Bless her.

Daffy Dilly

27th Aug 2009, 07:45 PM

I agree with Sez.

I think it would be unfair on both of you to keep him if you were likely to grow to resent him. I've been in a similar situation (thankfully things are looking up) and after a while I found I didn't miss the riding - it helped that it had reached the point where I didn't want to ride at all because Daffy clearly wasn't enjoying it.

Give him a chance to recover, and then see how you feel. You also need to take Banjo's feelings into account - will he actually enjoy being retired, or is he a horse that needs a job to do?

It's not an easy decision to make.

Jenni Addams

27th Aug 2009, 07:45 PM

In your situation, i would probably pts...if loaning as a companion wasnt an option. I feel that with your long working hours, it would be best for him. I don't mind horses being retired to live a life of luxury, but with awkward, long work hours, he wouldn't be getting as much pampering and visiting as he could be.
I suppose everyone looks at pets differently. I don't see a horse as a pet...a love barney...but he does a job...he's not like a cat.

But of course, if he can come up sound and do a little bit then all the better...pts is always the horrible last option.

boe

27th Aug 2009, 07:50 PM

Mine are with me till the end, no matter what, you can always find other ways of riding RS etc, i could'nt replace my horses just because they could no longer carry me out riding, but i do sympathise entirely with anyone in a situation like yours.

Yann

27th Aug 2009, 07:53 PM

I'm with Skippy's Mum on this one. It's entirely possible that I'll have two lovely unrideable old crocks to look after in a few years time and I won't resent a moment of it. I can't begin to describe the pleasure they've both brought me, so as long as they both have quality of life they'll go nowhere. It's a fair trade off in my book.

We're all different. If it's about the riding, or if its about the money, that's fair enough, we all have different priorities and values.

Skippys Mum

27th Aug 2009, 07:58 PM

I actually have to say that although I've usually been lucky enough to have one to ride and one retired over the years, I did have a phase a few years ago where Skippy was really only going for very light hacks (before all his major lameness kicked in but he wasn't really right) and Arnie was too young - oh and Torchy Pony had cushings and wasnt doing very well and Bianco is only an ornament anyway so in effect I had 4 horses and ponies to do every day and nothing to ride:rolleyes:

Unfortunately, Skippy and TorchyPony are both dead now - and I would happily never ride again to have either of them back:(

rtk

27th Aug 2009, 08:01 PM

I wouldn't blame you whatever decision you made, other than selling him on which I know you wouldn,t do.

I'm just really sorry that you could be in this position, it must be terrible. I have been so lucky that my oldie is still rideable at 33. Of course I would keep him if he wasn't but I would not be looking at as many years as you are and I can keep mine DIY.

I dont think anyone can advise on this but I would give yourself a little time before making any big decisions.

racingstripes

27th Aug 2009, 08:04 PM

izo

27th Aug 2009, 08:16 PM

i am remembering rightly that banjo went lame after one of your sharer's was jumping him? ..i would put him out on restricted grazing and part livery and see how he gets on being a retiree!! if he is in pain though, thats a different matter, then i would pts :( but i would never loan him out as a companion (or give him away) not unless i knew the person very very well and trusted them 101% and as other posters have said, you will always get other horses to 'ride' so you won't miss out on the riding. i would give him some time and see how he adjusts and of course you!!! :D

good luck x

Method_Acting

27th Aug 2009, 08:24 PM

assisted grass livery at least in the summer (restricted grazing if needed, my pony is currently out in a field with very sparce grazing) and if he really needed stabling in the winter and I couldn't muck him out then part livery/assisted diy.

if my (eight year old) horse was to need retiring tomorrow I would keep him and put every penny into him until the end of his days....He is so so special to me and I think, as long as he was not in pain I would owe it to him not to put him to sleep until he lost his spark. I know he'd have no worries being retired and living out.

sarchie

27th Aug 2009, 09:39 PM

Gaz has had ringbone for several years and she really hasn't deteriorated quickly over the years. The vet checks her legs (and teeth) twice a year and is really pleased with her flexion. She's enjoying retirement and being pampered, but then I have her at home and am not in the same situation as you workwise. Nothing would EVER make me sell Gaz. Yes I miss riding her, but to me she is a pet, she doesn't have a job. She deserves a happy retirement while she can get it and both me and the vet will know when she's not happy anymore. If they are happy and have quality of life then why pts. I do understand your circumstances make it more difficult, but I totally agree with Method Acting. Could you get assisted livery? Grass livery in the summer?

I do hope you manage to get something sorted, and no I don't think any of us think badly of you.

Zani

27th Aug 2009, 09:46 PM

I can only say what I would do, and we are not all the same.

My horse is only 4 and I hope he has a long ridden life ahead of him, but I have always said that he is with me till his dying breath. I could not part with him no matter what.

If he had an injury that meant he couldn't be ridden anymore but could still live happily and pain free then that is how he would end his days. I get so much enjoyment from him, the riding is only a very very small percentage of that.

However, if he was in pain and couldn't enjoy his life then I couldn't deny him is dignity and make him live an unhappy life, and I would have him PTS.

So sorry you are having to think of such decisions. I know you love your boy and you will do right by him no matter what.

devonlass

27th Aug 2009, 10:07 PM

vimto92

27th Aug 2009, 10:16 PM

I'm another one who would keep :) Ditto what Yann said really, he summed it up well.

Magic'sMum

27th Aug 2009, 10:19 PM

Wouldn't even be about getting another horse,as probably wouldn't for a while.Would more be about the long term financial and time commitment for a horse I really couldn't enjoy as I would like to,and could no longer do any of the things I bought them for.

*prepares to get lynched*

Why can you not enjoy a horse without riding it? I get just as much pleasure out of grooming, cuddling and loving my horse as I do from riding it, if not more. I couldn't ride my horse for nearly 18 months through amputation of my thumb and one illness after another he had, but I never considered getting rid of him cos I couldn't ride him. :confused:

Doeylicious

27th Aug 2009, 10:25 PM

Have pm'd you hun. You know whatever you decide, it is never ever my place to judge, you will do what's right by him according to your abilities to take care of him.

DL, I wont lynch you, as I say not my place to judge and for those of us without this lifestyle where you are able to keep an incredibly expensive animal as essentially a pet, it is something that seriously needs considering.

Those of you who have enough time and money to keep a horse on full livery or diy as a pet, I envy you. I know I will either be broke and exhausted doing my horse on DIY, or broke and exhausted having my horse on full livery and working the hours to pay for it! You say 'oh you can always find a way around it' - no, sometimes, you actually can't.

acw295

27th Aug 2009, 10:25 PM

I'm on DIY - and despite working a stressful job, I manage that. But if I couldn't do DIY I might look at local (I'd still want to go daily) retirement livery. That is assuming horse has good quality of life - other wise I'd pts.

If Molly couldn't be ridden I'd look at getting another eventually - but she would stay.

There must be chaper full livery options though for you - you just need to find the right yard. Bear in mind that you don't need a school, or jumps, or hacking. So actually you could probably find a small nice assisted DIY yard where they'd do extra - or find cheap DIY and get a freelance groom to do jobs. I'm sure you could get the costs right down. You have to think laterally :)

Melting Moments

27th Aug 2009, 10:29 PM

I would never pay £650.00 for livery!

I know were you coming from and only you can make that decision.

He he were mine, I would find someone else for him to go that cheaper or maybe think about gicing him to an animal welfair place, where he will have the care but be retired.

CER1389

27th Aug 2009, 10:44 PM

she can offord to keep her horse on full livery, just not if she can't ride him..
Ouch!
And don't forget you're not only spending that money on livery, but feed, vets bills, specialist farriery on top. Regardless of whether you can afford it, is it sensible to be spending £8k plus a year on a horse that you get nothing from? Yes I know you still get cuddles, grooming etc, but I live to ride, it's why I have horse horses. It's a 100% package.

@palemoon: there are special retirement yards that take care of your horse completely, even for laminitics, these tend towork out cheaper than 'normal'full livery, so maybe that would be an option to consider?

How many of those are going to be full though? Given current financial times etc?

Hmmm to be honest if you love him more than anything like you just said then that alone should justify the £650 whether you can ride him or not.
Surely riding is part of the justification of spending so much money on a horse? How do you justify it to a partner?

If it were me,then I think I would look at PTS.I didn't buy my horse as a pet,they are far too big a drain on time and money for that,not really like a dog or cat is it.
*prepares to get lynched*

Completley agree hun :)

Have copied my PM to pale moon from earlier (I will add this is in response to her PM to me, not me just PMing her nd spewing off my opinion)

It is the hardest descion in the world, and not one I envy you off.
However in my opinion a horse costs you money, a lot of money, you need to get some enjoyment from that.
If that enjoyment is just watching them in the field or grooming them then it's worth paying for. But I'm sorry thats not why I have horses. I have horses with an end goal of riding and low level competing. Thats what horse riding is all about for me. If I can't do that .... then why pay so much money for a horse?

I also feel that we have a responsibility to do the best by our horses that we can. When we take into horse ownership we promise to cover their every need. A horses basic need is to be able to eat, sleep, flight/run and to be pain free. If they can't do any of the above then we must find a way to solve it. As a friend said to me the other day: horses are flight prey animals so if they are showing a lameness it must be reasonably major as it would be a sign of weakness in the wild. If they're showing it you have to ask how much pain are they in, if it's not possible for them to run and flee, is it fair to put them in a field where they will have things they want to run from (that scary daffodil for example!).

I think part of that responsibility as well is making the descion if a horse can't be ridden: can you risk it going somewhere where it might be ridden?

I personally could live with myself more knowing that my horse had 8 good, pain free, fun years where he was loved, pampered and spoilt, and died in a place he was comfortable in and relaxed, with me, than to be passed on and maybe have another 4 or 5 horrid years of neglect, or in pain, and generally unhappy.

I'm not trying to put words into your mouth or anything, with Banjo it sounds like you could at least give him a few weeks to be in the field, be relaxed and happy and wait for the right time. I just think too many people have this "must save every horse" approach .... horses are too expensive and in current times there are too many of them around. No one will stand up and say the other point of view.

Best of luck hun, I'm here if you ever want a chat. It's a horrid place to be in.

Julip

27th Aug 2009, 11:00 PM

I think that despite the wealth of experience available here, each decision is individual to that owner and that horse at that time. I dont think any decision you could make could be considered anything other than in Banjo's best interests as you love him so much so allow time to bring what it brings and make your best decision when it needs making - worrying lots about things now will only make you upset about what might happen without doing anything to prevent it!

Hope he comes sound soon for you :)

devonlass

27th Aug 2009, 11:00 PM

Why can you not enjoy a horse without riding it? I get just as much pleasure out of grooming, cuddling and loving my horse as I do from riding it, if not more. I couldn't ride my horse for nearly 18 months through amputation of my thumb and one illness after another he had, but I never considered getting rid of him cos I couldn't ride him. :confused:

You never considered getting rid of him because there was the hope and very likely opportunity of being able to do the other things like riding eventually,this is a somwhat different situation than OP is in,where is looking at keeping a horse at great expense for possibly another 10-15 years,with no possibilty of being able to do very much at all with it.That is what I was basing my answer on,not a temporary situation like you describe.

I actually ride very little compared to all the other stuff I do with my horse,and I do get great enjoyment from just being around him.However I personally could not justify to myself and my family (who BTW do have to be considered when I am spending the family income and possibly lot's of time on said horse),spending considerable amounts of money and time on a horse that could not do most of the things that I bought it for in the first place.A horse to me is a luxury,and also a hobby.Having a horse that was far more work,worry and stress than anything else,does not fit into either of those categories IMO.

Have pm'd you hun. You know whatever you decide, it is never ever my place to judge, you will do what's right by him according to your abilities to take care of him.

DL, I wont lynch you, as I say not my place to judge and for those of us without this lifestyle where you are able to keep an incredibly expensive animal as essentially a pet, it is something that seriously needs considering.

Those of you who have enough time and money to keep a horse on full livery or diy as a pet, I envy you. I know I will either be broke and exhausted doing my horse on DIY, or broke and exhausted having my horse on full livery and working the hours to pay for it! You say 'oh you can always find a way around it' - no, sometimes, you actually can't.

*breathes sigh of relief at not being lynched by at least one person*:p

Well put,and very true.I would love to be in a postition where I didn't even have to think about being able to have a whole heard of horses as pets!! Unfortunately in the real world I'm not in that position,and like you say there aren't always way's round it or other options.Have to do the best you can with what you've got.

He he were mine, I would find someone else for him to go that cheaper or maybe think about gicing him to an animal welfair place, where he will have the care but be retired.

See now this I wouldn't do,that to me is far worse than me saying I would PTS.Sending him to 'someone' else could mean he ends up buted up and sold on as a riding horse,and ends up either crippled and in pain,or sold from pillar to post.
Animal welfare places are bursting at the seams at the mo,and can only take horses in desperate need of rescue,and preferably ones they can later on loan out as riding horses,they would probably even agree that PTS was the most responsible decision if the horse has a progressive,degenerative illness.

charlotte+jill!

27th Aug 2009, 11:07 PM

Very very hard desision

I have been through a simlar problem recently ...with my 8 yr old too.

If I were you I would hand on heart pts (CER is my best friend and I share many of her views on this matter).

My 8 year old had a recurring injury ... my vet advised he never be jumped again and wasn't suitible for my requirements from a horse (to event). And to seriously concider his future ... if he came sound again.

If he didn't come sound I was going to put him to sleep. Which was a hidious decision he was my everything... my hopes my dreams... I'd had him since a 4yr old. But it was in HIS best interest... not MINE!

Thankfully though 10 weeks along he is field sound and flatwork sound and is in a lovely loan home with a friend where he will be utterly adored. This has still broken me in ways I can't even begin to discribe. But it's the best for him at the end of the day.... and that is what matters. I'll be their for him at the end of the day no matter what. But I couldn't justify a horse not suited to my needs at the moment (espesically with my mum ill at the moment).

Best of luck .... I to am here if you need an ear or a wall to bounce idea and thoughts off.

xxxx

mikh

28th Aug 2009, 07:30 AM

And then what??

My yard look after my horse as it he were their own....... there is asolutely no dispute about his care... that is a given

And before you say that there are yards near me, that can take care of Banjo - NO THERE AREN'T. The yard I am on is wonderful, in every way,

whoa! why are you getting so worked up? You asked opinions, I gave you mine as to what I'd do. Please feel free to point out where I disputed his care, I made no comment about your yard....... the yard he was on.... so what are you talking about?????????

With assisted diy you could do what you could manage and have assistance when need be - this would obviously be cheaper, and flexible but you could still keep him

Skippys Mum

28th Aug 2009, 07:39 AM

I think this shows up a basic difference in characters here. There are some who see the horse as a pet - part of the family. Others see them as having a job to do. I'm not saying either way is right or wrong but I am curious.

If Banjo was still sound but was just old, what would you do then? What do all of you who dont think he should be kept as a pet think should happen to the old horses? Where are they all supposed to go?

Palemoon, if you read many threads here they will show that the injections can be very successful for these types of condition. Yes its pricey, but they do seem to work. Surely that would be worth a try?

racingstripes

28th Aug 2009, 07:44 AM

Surely riding is part of the justification of spending so much money on a horse? How do you justify it to a partner?

But if you love him more than ANYTHING (more than money or ridiing) then whether your could ride him or not wouldnt influence a decision on whether to keep him or PTS. I mean, it's not his fault his livery is £650 and that he can't be ridden. He could go to someone as a companion who may decide to keep him cheaper for say DIY livery and the huge £650 wouldn't have to be justified. Sorry if that sounds harsh as thats not intended but comparing it to my own horses, I couldnt imagine not wanting to pay his livery because I couldn't ride him. I just don't understand when people say them "love them more than anything" then in the next breath say "but I'm not paying X amount for livery If I can't ride etc". (Just to add, I mean this whilst he's comfortable and not suffering, I dont believe in keeping a horse thats in pain even with medication etc)

Jo_1280

28th Aug 2009, 07:48 AM

It is a very difficult decision and if there is any pain for the horse then the decision is easy, but... surely anyone who owns a horse expects that at somepoint when it gets old that they will stop riding it and just continue with care?

I retired my old mare from riding years before I had her PTS, she just lived out her days in the field and stabled at night being totally pampered and rewarded for all the amazing years she had given me... it really didn't occur to me that as soon as she wasn't rideable that it was time to call it a day and have her PTS, many other people at my yard also have old horses, none of whom are ridden but they are enjoying their retirement.

if it was me, I would only ever PTS based on health reasons, not money or time

Soot

28th Aug 2009, 08:03 AM

Very tough call & ultimately the answer doesn't matter as long as its welfare is not compromised, the horse won't know the difference (a dead animal tends to be a pretty peaceful one).

So basically, the answer depends on what the owner can live with.

As for what I live with:
When I realised Rambo could no longer compete, my initial thought was to sell him and get a new competition horse. It's what everyone at my event yard recommended.
Then my mother reminded me how much I'd wanted Rambo when I first saw him; how I'd tried loads of *better* competition horses but still wanted Rambo more than any of them.
So I left the event yard and started local shows & hacking ... and it was fun enough and in a way I bonded differently, more peacefully, with Rambo than during our competition years.
When it became apparent that Rambo would no longer be ridden for anything other than a few bareback hacks around the forest, I moved him to another yard with more land and bigger herds (always full livery for me in those days). I went to see him as often as possible and groomed and hopped on bareback and walked him in hand.
This was about 5 years ago -- since then he moved yards two more times, the first to a full livery yard in the north of France where he was in a huge herds and group stabling overnight, essentially managed like livestock and happy as anything. I didn't visit as much at that yard because everything was done for him. My monthly bill: aprx £100 all inclusive.
Then in summer 2007 he suddenly looked *old* and I knew he didn't have long. I brought him to the UK and kept him on DIY, gave him the best of everything, and as we know, he died in May 2008. I never begrudged him even a minute from the time he lived without being ridden.

Rambo started out as my competition horse became my best friend, and he owed me nothing. For four years I rode shares and lessons, but it didn't matter because at the end of the day I could still go and groom and love Rambo.

IF, however, upon leaving my event yard I'd realised I couldn't live without the excitement of high level competition, then mine and Rambo's story would have been a very different one ... and I would probably be a much better (& more competitive) rider than I am! And I wouldn't expect to be judged for that decision because we all have different things that help us sleep at night. Rambo taught me so much about myself and helped me grow into a settled, patient human being. If he could have lived another twenty years I'd have somehow found a way to pay his way.

Alejandra

28th Aug 2009, 08:25 AM

I haven't read all the replies, but perhaps you are looking at this from the wrong angle. Rather than thinking 'Should I keep my horse?' maybe the question is 'Can I get free riding elsewhere?'
If you keep your horse on retirement (see if you can put him on full grass livery at least during the non-laminitic times of year), you could also look for horses to ride.
I have never found a shortage of horses to ride - so either you could share one for minimal cost, or free.

Cazie

28th Aug 2009, 08:25 AM

Originally Posted by Cazie
she can offord to keep her horse on full livery, just not if she can't ride him..

[QUOTE=CER1389;2419202]Ouch!
And don't forget you're not only spending that money on livery, but feed, vets bills, specialist farriery on top. Regardless of whether you can afford it, is it sensible to be spending £8k plus a year on a horse that you get nothing from? Yes I know you still get cuddles, grooming etc, but I live to ride, it's why I have horse horses. It's a 100% package.

Yes Ouch I agree, but PM said she can afford to keep on full livery, just not justify it if she can't ride.. fact, so don't go having a go at me because i said it like it is.. I was only answering a question. I could just quote your posts and say Pffft...

Skippys Mum

28th Aug 2009, 08:34 AM

Have to say I'm with Cazie on this one. The original thread clearly states the problem isnt the money, its only the money and not being able to ride.

None of us know whats waiting round the next corner and I know you should never say never but if there is no financial reason, it comes down to how much do you really love the horse. Enough to keep him or enough to pass him on (to what, in this economic climate, could well be an uncertain future).

Also, there are possible medications here that havent been tried. For the sake of a few hundred pounds there could be a solution to all Banjo's problems??

I would have no problems with pts being the option if the horse is suffering in any way though.

Bronya

28th Aug 2009, 08:41 AM

There are retirement/grass livery places with poor grazing suitable for laminitics. We have a few lami prone ponies that live out year-round in our starvation paddock and are fine. It is possible to find.

kturner

28th Aug 2009, 08:48 AM

I could never part with mine just because he couldnt be ridden. He is part of the family and my responsibility to the end.

The riding for you seems to be the problem not the cost of keeping Banjo. So work on that, find other friends horses you could ride, or have a part time share with someone, or pay for hacks from a local riding school.

There are lots of options for you to find alternative riding whilst still keeping your boy with you and well looked after.

So the question here, seems to be, where are YOU going to ride, not what to do with Banjo.

Cazie

28th Aug 2009, 08:50 AM

Thank You..Skippys Mum :-) as I said in my first post, if the horse cannot be helped then pts is an option to be considered, but not if the only reason to pts is that the horse can't be riden. I guess my horse is my life, and the enjoyment I get from just being with him is paramount.

kturner

28th Aug 2009, 08:56 AM

Soot - great post exactly what I would do, get riding somewhere else. Glad it worked out for you both. :)

huskyfinn

28th Aug 2009, 10:15 AM

my old mare had to be retired as she was just too dangerous to ride and too spooky to do anything with, she was basically terrified of her own shadow.

i decided that i would get her checked over completely and take it from there, results all came back fine so i chose to retire her, i would never have felt right selling her on as i couldn't guarantee her future or anyone elses.

i was able to retire her as she wasn't really costing me anything with regards to vets etc, only the hard feed, hay and bedding.
if the vets had said she had problems then i would have worked everything out first to see if i could have still kept her if she was happy and comfortable.

turns out that 2 weeks after moving her to make a fresh start (new area for us all) she collapsed in the field and i sadly had to have her pts. i will never forget that day for as long as i live. there's a part of me that thinks maybe i should have had her pts before moving, at least then she wouldn't have had to go through the trauma of the move and then the undignified ending she had.
i know this probably doesn't help anyone out but thought i'd share my experience with that particular mare.

shandy84

28th Aug 2009, 10:21 AM

I had this to consider last year.

Bramble suffers from locking stifles and it was causing her a lot of pain. I made the decision then and there if she could be pain free and retired then I would keep her, however if she was in pain I would have no qualms about PTS. Thankfully she has recovered enough to continue to work.

Bramble is already on DIY and I love her very much having had her since a foal, however she is a working horse and I understand that it is a difficult predicament to be in, for me if she's pain free I would keep her as a pet but if pain was involved I would PTS

amandal

28th Aug 2009, 10:42 AM

If money were no problem (as in this case) and as long as the horse had quality of life / pain free etc I would keep her (my 2 are both mares !).

I have just moved yards again to enable me to keep both girls at a yard where they're happy, rather than the posh yard, too busy for the youngster, that I loved which I moved to at the beginning of the year.

The horses and their happiness come first. They don't owe me anything, I owe them.

BIrish

28th Aug 2009, 11:02 AM

or maybe think about gicing him to an animal welfair place, where he will have the care but be retired.

I had to comment on this as it's one my major bug bears - why on earth should a CHARITY look after a horse simply because an owner doesn't want to ? There are horses out there that absolutely need the help of a charity to save them from miserable and often fatal conditions/treatment - the places should be available to them.

Very tough call & ultimately the answer doesn't matter as long as its welfare is not compromised, the horse won't know the difference (a dead animal tends to be a pretty peaceful one).

I agree with Soot entirely about this!

Personally - I'd find a way to keep mine into their dotage but that's me. If you don't want to keep Banjo then have him PTS. He won't know he's dead/missing out/blame you.

Cazie

28th Aug 2009, 11:10 AM

CER1389

28th Aug 2009, 11:14 AM

Quote by BIrish.. If you don't want to keep Banjo then have him PTS. He won't know he's dead/missing out/blame you.

Personally I think this is the ultimate in selfishness.. how easy it would be with that philosophy to dispose of! I can't ride my horse anymore and don't want to pay for him.. I'll just have him pts.. won't make any difference to him.. he won't know...

But it depends what point of view you are coming from .... fair enough from a sound horse that you've just got bored off or that you can't be bothered to rehab then pts is selfish but from the point of a horse that is in pain often, requiring vets visits regularly to keep him pain free, or daily medication that they dislike .... surely it's better that they are pts and that THEY are not going through the pain and hassle?

We keep horses for OUR benefit not theres. It is our utter selfishness that means so many horses that in the wild would not have survived are hobbling into their 30s.

Cazie

28th Aug 2009, 11:17 AM

BIrish

28th Aug 2009, 11:20 AM

Personally I think this is the ultimate in selfishness.. how easy it would be with that philosophy to dispose of! I can't ride my horse anymore and don't want to pay for him.. I'll just have him pts.. won't make any difference to him.. he won't know...

It might be selfish but if you can't or won't care for a horse that is unrideable and re-homing it is not really viable then IMO it's the kindest thing. And the horse won't know it's dead, and no, it won't make any difference to the horse.

If you had quoted the rest of my post you would see that this is not my preferred choice - I would keep my horses into their dotage assuming it was not to the detriment of their health or the wellbeing of my other horses but I have the facilities and the will to do this - not everyone can or wants to, do the same.

But it depends what point of view you are coming from .... fair enough from a sound horse that you've just got bored off or that you can't be bothered to rehab then pts is selfish but from the point of a horse that is in pain often, requiring vets visits regularly to keep him pain free, or daily medication that they dislike .... surely it's better that they are pts and that THEY are not going through the pain and hassle?

We keep horses for OUR benefit not theres. It is our utter selfishness that means so many horses that in the wild would not have survived are hobbling into their 30s.

Exactly.

charlotte+jill!

28th Aug 2009, 11:21 AM

Quote by BIrish.. If you don't want to keep Banjo then have him PTS. He won't know he's dead/missing out/blame you.

Personally I think this is the ultimate in selfishness.. how easy it would be with that philosophy to dispose of! I can't ride my horse anymore and don't want to pay for him.. I'll just have him pts.. won't make any difference to him.. he won't know...

The ULTIMATE SELFISHNESS in my mind is keeping an animal beyond it's pretty obvious end. Whether it be a horse, cat, dog.... all the same in my mind. It is one of my utter bugbares about my so called animal lovers!

This horse is lame ie in pain... a horse is a prey animal.... it has to be pretty in pain to show ... otherwise in it's mind its the next meal.

Call me selfish I DON'T care .... I'd rather my beloved animal be at rest than with us in this world, in pain .... in god knows whos hands.

trieste

28th Aug 2009, 11:25 AM

It might be selfish but if you can't or won't care for a horse that is unrideable and re-homing it is not really viable then IMO it's the kindest thing. And the horse won't know it's dead, and no, it won't make any difference to the horse.

If you had quoted the rest of my post you would see that this is not my preferred choice - I would keep my horses into their dotage assuming it was not to the detriment of their health or the wellbeing of my other horses but I have the facilities and the will to do this - not everyone can or wants to, do the same.

Exactly.

Completely agree.

Bella & Tessa

28th Aug 2009, 11:27 AM

Hi Rachel

Im so sorry to hear about banjo, im not sure whether you heard but i put my beloved Tessa to sleep on the 12th August 09 due to her being in constant pain, no matter how much bute she was lame, she couldnt even get down to roll or lie down, i retired her nearly two years ago and kept her on grass livery, the options are so limited when they are constantly lame, personally i just wouldnt sell as companion or a retirement home as ive heard horror stories and could never have lived with myself if something happened to her so that was my kindest option, you have to think firstly of his quality of life, I had to adjust my life to accomodate with her being on DIY grass livery, not riding her again never bothered me i still cared for her the way i did when she was ridden which i know you will be like that with Banjo, i wish there was some magic words to take all this away from you as i know what your going through, just take your time to decide what you will do with him and where best for him to stay, i know you dont go on the other forum anymore but keep us updated and if you need any advice then please just ask and ill try to help as much as i can

Hugs to you and banjo xxxxxxx

BIrish

28th Aug 2009, 11:28 AM

But the reply was general.. I have always agreed that a horse should be PTS if in constant pain.. I'm not arguing with that.. but how about I just have my dog PTS and My cat along with my other animals.. just because I can and just because they won't know.. they'll be dead anyway.. come on!!

My reply was not general - it was directed very obviously at PM & Banjo and therefore in reply to their particular predicament.

If Banjo was perfectly healthy and rehomable etc shooting him wouldn't be an option. As it is he has a degenerative condition which could affect his future in every way - as a ridden or companion horse. So if his owner does not want to or cannot keep medicating/paying for livery etc and a companion style/retirement compromise cannot be found then I think having the horse PTS humanely is a reasonable end.

I never suggested she has the horse PTS "just because she can" or "beacuse he won't know" (why would you?) I said that if she can see no way else or doesn't want to see another way then that is an option.

Cazie

28th Aug 2009, 11:28 AM

The ULTIMATE SELFISHNESS in my mind is keeping an animal beyond it's pretty obvious end. Whether it be a horse, cat, dog.... all the same in my mind. It is one of my utter bugbares about my so called animal lovers!

This horse is lame ie in pain... a horse is a prey animal.... it has to be pretty in pain to show ... otherwise in it's mind its the next meal.

Call me selfish I DON'T care .... I'd rather my beloved animal be at rest than with us in this world, in pain .... in god knows whos hands.

Oh for goodness sake, do you guys only read what you want to read and not what is written..

The statement to pts was made as a general one... if you don't want banjo anymore have him pts.. he won't know.

It isn't about a horse in pain ect.. read my replies... IF A HORSE IS IN PAIN AND NOTHING CAN BE DONE ABOUT IT THEN PTS..

Stop insinuating I am saying things that I am not saying...

It is and you agree very selfish to pts an animal just because it no longer serves its purpose to you... It was more the selfish attitude of just being able to justify pts just because the horse is dead and won't know it...

Please take your time to read my post(s) before you hang me.. Okay!

Dooley

28th Aug 2009, 11:32 AM

I cannot, realistically, keep a horse on full livery, when I don't ride. It just isn't feasible, as much as I love him (and I DO - be under no illusions..... I love him more than anything.... apart from maybe Lee and Gemma....;)) - but I cannot justify spending £650.00 on keeping a horse as just a pet. And that is all he would be, if I could never ride him again.

But why do you feel the need to justify it? To whom? Why can you afford a riding horse but not a retired horse who will cost you exactly the same? Is it maybe not about what you can afford (or justify) but about what you are willing to pay? I am NOT slating you, just trying to help you see the real reasons you feel the way you do and the reason why you are asking the question.

If you don't want to pay full livery for a pet that is your choice but you have to be strong enough to accept that that is the choice you make. You Life isn't always about choices but in this case it is. You can afford it but you may choose not to. If you didn't have a choice the question wouldn't need to be posed.then choose not to keep him.
(Note: this is about YOU accepting your OWN choice, not about what other people may think. You shouldn't worry about what others think of your choices, as long as nobody suffers beause of them. But it can be very hard to accept that one has made such a seemingly heartless choice for one's own benefit)

If that is how you feel then i think the kindest thing would be to PTS too.

Retirement livery is just as expensive as normal full livery unless you find a place in a much cheaper part of the country than where you are. Believe me, I have looked into it, I have two horses that can never be ridden again and one of them is only a youngster. I know exactly what you're going through (plus some). I chose to keep one on part livery as he couldn't live out 24/7 for a number of reasons, and the other on grass livery. For life. But I did seriously consider having the second one PTS because I do still want a horse I can ride and I may well be paying for him for a very very long time as he's so young. I found I couldn't live with that choice though. But most people around me thought I should.

It's a tough one. But whatever happens, be grateful for the 3 years of respite. Both of mine went lame and were never ridden again from that moment, no matter what operation, treatment, and finally supplements were used.

BIrish

28th Aug 2009, 11:34 AM

Oh for goodness sake, do you guys only read what you want to read and not what is written..

The statement to pts was made as a general one... if you don't want banjo anymore have him pts.. he won't know.

Stop insinuating I am saying things that I am not saying...

Please take your time to read my post(s) before you hang me.. Okay!

Please take some of your own advice on this topic..

My reply was not general - it was directed very obviously at PM & Banjo and therefore in reply to their particular predicament.

.

I think by saying the below I made it clear I was talking about Banjo/PM in particular..

If you don't want to keep Banjo then have him PTS. He won't know he's dead/missing out/blame you.

kturner

28th Aug 2009, 11:35 AM

Be very, very careful with charities. A lady on my yard gave hers away to be retired through suspected navicular, not even comfirmed, but she loved her riding. I have never spoken to her since because I worked briefly for the place and told her of my experiences. She said she didnt care and didnt want to pts herself. How cruel after it had given her so many years.

One being a 28 yr old tb, to be sent there for retiring and field life, etc. They took horse from very upset owner and I followed them around the corner to another yard where it was given to a novice to ride and she sent it back to charity after a week because it wouldnt lift its feet for cleaning!

Where it ended up I dont know, but once you sign them over, that is it. You have no control over there welfare. I have plenty of other stories about this charity which I will not go into. I resigned off the board because I was not happy about what they did with their donations either.

I would rather loan to someone where I could checkup on the wellbeing of my horse.

BIrish

28th Aug 2009, 11:38 AM

It was more the selfish attitude of just being able to justify pts just because the horse is dead and won't know it...

Furthermore,

I did not justify having a horse PTS "just because it won't know" :rolleyes: that is just extravagant tabloid style sensationalism by you..

I was, however, saying that if that was the route that PM takes due to her circumstances then the horse isn't going to know - which is utterly true. Complaints from beyond the grave from horses that are dead and feel that they shouldn't be are not that common AFAIK..

Cazie

28th Aug 2009, 11:40 AM

I guess I am just pretty passionate about PTS a animal that has just outstayed it's welcome.. I have worked in a vets where I have had to assist the vet in pts many many different animals just because the animal no longer could full fill the owners desires.. When I have bought every single one of my animals I have always known it was for life.. So many animals are destroyed just because they are no longer useful, cats that pee in corners, dogs that chew furniture and horses that can't be riden.. If money is not a problem as in this case.. then the horse should be looked after into it's old age.. I don't think PM was saying her horse was in constant pain and suffering!

I am not going to argue this with anyone on here.. we are all entitled to our opinions.. good or bad..

extravagant tabloid style sensationalism!!! it was what you said BIrish.. words from your mouth not mine...:-)

Hullabaloo

28th Aug 2009, 11:41 AM

BIrish

28th Aug 2009, 11:48 AM

extravagant tabloid style sensationalism!!! it was what you said BIrish.. words from your mouth not mine...:-)

Look careful Cazie.. I said if PaleMoon does not want to keep him then have him PTS. That would be the reason for having him destroyed. The fact she doesn't want to keep or pay for a horse she can't ride. Not because he won't know ...

I'll quote myself again for you so you can check..

If you don't want to keep Banjo then have him PTS. He won't know he's dead/missing out/blame you.

Cazie

28th Aug 2009, 11:49 AM

Exactly :D

Lgd

28th Aug 2009, 12:13 PM

If he could be managed pain free in a retirment livery then that is what I would seek, even if it required a low dose of bute. Such places do exist - a friend has successfully retired her old dressage horse to such a place. He stays out in the summer with his pals and is in by night. This was an agoraphobic horse who would never stay out for more than a couple of hours (he came from Germany like that) but with time and work he has learnt to stay out. She's in the Southern area and I believe it costs her around £40 a week.

However, if the horse is going to have pain that cannot be controlled except by high doses of bute then PTS would be my option.

The OP has an additional problem in that he is prone to laminitis and for some horses even with very careful management they can not retire to a field life without intermittent bouts of lammi, particularly if it has a metabolic basis. If his pain cannot be controlled to keep him comfortable then I would PTS.

Mine are pets and are with me to the end, but that end will always be dictated by their quality of life. In addition I have the facilities to make the decision. If I cannot maintain a decent quality of life for them then they will be PTS. It something awful to think of but better to do it when you are not in a highly emotional position. Mine are fit and well but I have already made certain decisions about what I will and will not do e.g. no colic surgery. If their lives become limited by pain or health issues then they will go.

Laura83

28th Aug 2009, 01:31 PM

I've been in this situation. He was unrideable and bloody expensive, not just livery but vets fees and traveling to horsepital. He had a degenerative disease and did not respond to treatment. He was only ever going to get worse. He was permanently in a bad mood, who could blame him.

My options:
1) Rent a field somewhere alone and DIY, keep on long term bute
2) Bute up/sell on/take to local sales (someone actually suggested this to me so I feel I have to list it!!)
4) Off-load him onto a charity or sanctuary
5) Put him in a retirement home
3) Shoot him.

I had him shot. Sorry to put it so bluntly, because actually the hunt were amazingly kind and helpful and his last moments were very dignified.

I agree with whoever said making them hobble on into their 30's when they aren't comfortable is selfish (because we'll mis them so...) A lame horse = a horse in pain, even out in the field. Herd life is difficult when you can't get away from those who are younger and fitter because you're fenced in, and nature would normally have finished you off long ago in a much more unpleasant way.

montys helper

28th Aug 2009, 01:53 PM

not read all post but cant u put him in a horse home, such as mare and fola, and have an agreement where he wont ever be ridden again? i do know where your coming from as my pony who just had an op,as long as he can just be a pony and be able to go out then all is ok but if he got to be on box rest forever more then ill have him pts. good luck hun x

Dooley

28th Aug 2009, 03:30 PM

A lame horse = a horse in pain, even out in the field. Herd life is difficult when you can't get away from those who are younger and fitter because you're fenced in, and nature would normally have finished you off long ago in a much more unpleasant way.

Agree if the lameness affects life in the field.

Both of mine were never lame on a straight line, only on circles/turns. My young boy is in charge of his herd, and does everythign he always did before in the field.The only thing he's not sound enough for is work. My older chap is out with one other and although he does sometimes show an unlevel stride in the field, I've never seen him any happier than he is right now. He charges around whenever he feels like it.

If they can't be happy in the filed then there is no question about what is best for them.

Gruntfuttock

28th Aug 2009, 04:05 PM

If this was my horse, I'd have him PTS. If he can't be ridden and he's unlikely to stay field sound due to lami, then PTS is the responsible decision. If he was re-homed as a companion or a retiree, there is always the chance that he would end up sold on or doped up and ridden...and thats not a decent end for a good friend.

A decent end is the biggest bucket of carrots he's ever seen in his entire life, and a bullet that he never saw coming.

CER1389

28th Aug 2009, 05:08 PM

However, the key thing is that I will take responsibility for what happens to him - he will not be passed on to an uncertain future. That is, I think, the worst thing you can do to a horse - far worse than pts.
Hullabaloo ... in 2 sentences you have summed up exactly what I tried to say in my 2 posts! Completley agree.

I had him shot. Sorry to put it so bluntly, because actually the hunt were amazingly kind and helpful and his last moments were very dignified.

A decent end is the biggest bucket of carrots he's ever seen in his entire life, and a bullet that he never saw coming.

Out of choice any horse of mine will be shot. As said above, it is a far more dignified way of going and the hunt have always been brilliant.
For some reason (hormones?!) Gruntfuttock that phrase made me well up! In an oddly good way. I think it just sums up so perfectly the dignified end they deserve.

Skippys Mum

28th Aug 2009, 05:43 PM

I agree with the pts rather than passing him on bit totally but there are options available for this horse that would possibly give him a decent quality of life. Surely they are worth trying.

From the original post, it seems that if the horse will come sound (remembering that it was sound until very recently, and only went lame after it had been jumping - which it wasnt supposed to do) then there is no problem. The issue only arises if it is NOT SOUND ENOUGH TO RIDE. Nowhere was there mention of him being field sound or not. Is this horse not entitled to a happy retirement? Should it only be pts because it cannot be ridden?

What to do if Banjo is field sound but unrideable seems to be the issue here. The horse doesnt actually need to be pts just now. The issue is that the owner is not prepared to pay £650 a month for a horse she cannot ride. The issue is not about the horses quality of life - its fine at the moment!

Money isn't the problem (I could totally understand and sympathise if that was the case) - the owner is happy to keep paying as long as he can be ridden.
This only becomes a problem if he can only be kept as a pet! So what would happen to him if its just old age? In fact, if he makes it through this, what is going to happen to him when he's older?

If he's field lame then its a no brainer for me. Pts. This also applies to the horses that dont want to be pasture ornaments (there are many out there who would be unhappy kept like that) BUT thats not the case with Banjo.

We take on the responsibility for them and we owe them a duty of care - not just when they are doing what we want them to do.

Good god, I've got arthritis - hopefully you wouldnt all want me shot just because I'm a bit hirply (although you might just want me shot full stop!). I'd like to think that even though I'm a bit lame I'm still entitled to a happy life:)

duchy

28th Aug 2009, 05:48 PM

If you dont want to fund him then PTS. There are TONNES of horses in this country that are perfectly sound and healthy. I see no reason to burden a charity or similar with a lame horse. PTS and go get another sound one. Sounds harsh but IMO there is no room in this country for unsound, useless animals unless the owner loves them enough to pay for them themselves.

Roofio

28th Aug 2009, 05:54 PM

I've commented on your other thread (http://www.newrider.com/forum/showthread.php?t=201096), but I will repeat here that I think he is worth a chance. These things can and do settle down with time and care.

If you really feel that you do not want to keep him personally to give him this chance then I see your options as;

1. (quality) Retirement livery - they do exist, this was where Dyl was going if I didn't have him.

2. Someone you trust to loan him and give him the time to come right. Thankfully the option Dyl's mom chose.

If neither of those is acceptable to you then PTS.

NoviceNic

28th Aug 2009, 06:15 PM

If your horse cant be turned out on grass then surely your horse couldnt be sent to a retirement home either....I thought they were just turned out to grass on retirement. ?????:confused:

theocat

28th Aug 2009, 06:54 PM

If it were me,then I think I would look at PTS.I didn't buy my horse as a pet,they are far too big a drain on time and money for that,not really like a dog or cat is it.
Riding is not really something I even do all that much,and only hack anyway,BUT riding is part of the package,and one of the pleasures of owning a horse,and one of the reasons I bought a horse in the first place!! I realise that there are many other aspects to it,but really an unsound horse that possibly can't do much of anything,and could potentially cost never ending amounts of money for meds and care etc,is not something I could justify hanging onto forever.If I had my own land,and had none of the general upkeep costs,or cheap retirement livery then maybe I would at least give it a go,but if I had to fund expensive normal livery etc,then I would have to PTS.

Wouldn't even be about getting another horse,as probably wouldn't for a while.Would more be about the long term financial and time commitment for a horse I really couldn't enjoy as I would like to,and could no longer do any of the things I bought them for.

*prepares to get lynched*

A very honest and realistic post, DL. :) No lynching from me, I agree absolutely 100%. I'd give them a short "retirement" (an extension of Gruntfuttock's enormous bucket of carrots) of a few weeks, as close as I could get to horsey heaven on earth, and then PTS.

I agree everyone will have differing opinions on what's best, and would choose different routes depending on what's right for them, but the one thing I don't really like the thought of is passing the "problem" on to someone else. Paying for retirement livery is one option, although possibly not ideal for a laminitic, but I wouldn't ever consider passing my horse on to someone else to be a companion, whether or not I retained ownership - it's too risky for the horse. Also agree with BIrish and duchy about the charity thing ... they ought to be taking animals who have no-one else to care for them, not horses whose owners are looking for a cheap way out of responsibilities...

Pale Moon, if it comes to the worst, you must make the best decision for you, and not what you feel you "ought" to do - whatever that might be. Hope it all works out okay.

Roofio

28th Aug 2009, 07:03 PM

The retirement livery that Dyl was going too has lots of different pastures depending on needs and does stabling if necessary :)

racingstripes

28th Aug 2009, 07:06 PM

Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 14

If you dont want to fund him then PTS. There are TONNES of horses in this country that are perfectly sound and healthy. I see no reason to burden a charity or similar with a lame horse. PTS and go get another sound one. Sounds harsh but IMO there is no room in this country for unsound, useless animals unless the owner loves them enough to pay for them themselves.

Why charity!? Why not retirement home if the O/P can afford it. What a way to pay back a horse for all its work. It makes me sick how people consider a horse "useless" just because they cant ride it. How selfish. As an owner I think we have an obligation to give our horses some type of retirement and try and secure their future if we phsyically can. And no, that doesn't include charity or passing a horse on thats unsound. But doing it yourself! Its up to the O/P what she wants to do but I couldnt live with myself for putting a horse to sleep when it could be retired but I didnt want to pay for it. Cant love them that much :rolleyes:

theocat

28th Aug 2009, 07:16 PM

I think we have an obligation to give our horses some type of retirement and try and secure their future if we phsyically can.

My bold. Unless you can keep the horse on and care for it yourself, or keep it on full livery overseen by yourself on a regular basis, PTS does that better than any other option. :o

racingstripes

28th Aug 2009, 07:25 PM

keep the horse on and care for it yourself, or keep it on full livery overseen by yourself on a regular basis,

Yes, the O/P CAN do this though! Its not like she can't afford it. If that was the case and paying was no option, I would say it def was better to put the horse to sleep (Esp after reading this thread :eek:) She just doesn't want to pay now she cant ride him.

Bronya

28th Aug 2009, 07:46 PM

Forgot to add - cost for retirement livery - at my yard grass livery with care is about £180 a month + shoes, wormer, feed, vets but incl haylage when/if needed. We have a lami/starvation paddock that the shetlands live out in. We're near London, so would imagine would be cheaper further out :).

lachlanandmarcu

28th Aug 2009, 08:00 PM

I think when you buy a horse, its for its whole life, whether it can be ridden or not (unless its a childs pony who is madly outgrown). If you choose to PTS because the old one is suffering, then thats OK and can be the right thing to do if theyre in pain esp if it will only get worse.

If on the other hand the condition could be stablised and managed, and the only thing stopping it having a peaceful retirement is you wanting a horse that is capable of being ridden, then I think it is a pretty poor show for your conscience to reflect on in years to come, there should be more to horse ownership than riding.

If all you wanted was a horse you could always ride then I would recommend next time you do NOT buy a horse who will depend on you, but instead loan one so that if it breaks you can hand it back....

Definitely do NOT risk a retirement loan unless you know the people very well, if you want to replace the horse, have it PTS.

But I couldnt do that, thats not the way I see horse ownership.

duchy

28th Aug 2009, 08:05 PM

Why charity!? Why not retirement home if the O/P can afford it. What a way to pay back a horse for all its work. It makes me sick how people consider a horse "useless" just because they cant ride it. How selfish. As an owner I think we have an obligation to give our horses some type of retirement and try and secure their future if we phsyically can. And no, that doesn't include charity or passing a horse on thats unsound. But doing it yourself! Its up to the O/P what she wants to do but I couldnt live with myself for putting a horse to sleep when it could be retired but I didnt want to pay for it. Cant love them that much :rolleyes:

Oh for goodness sake! FYI if it were my horse it would not be put to sleep, i would be paying for its 'useless' ass to live out the rest of its days as my expensive pet because I will only have the very best for my boys BUT what im saying is if the OP doesnt want to pay for the horse herself she should PTS instead of burdening someone else!

SO1

28th Aug 2009, 08:07 PM

When I bought my pony he was only 5 and hopefully we will have many years of riding ahead but when I choose him I choose him because I wanted a pony that I could also enjoy should I not be able to ride him any more - either through injury or illness of myself or him. He has a super friendly nature and loves being groomed and cuddled and I enjoy brushing and cuddling him. When I bought him I was aware that one day he won't be able to be ridden and that I would care for him or arrange care for him if I can't when that time comes after all I choose him he did not choose to come and live with me and I have to be responsible for him.

Did you have plans as to what you would do with Banjo when he got too old to ride or where you planning to sell before then. I understand you have a couple of sharers and maybe you need their financial contribution to be able to afford to keep him on full livery and if they don't want to contribute towards a horse they can't ride then it is a different financial situation.

As long as Banjo is not in pain he can still have a decent quality of life and there are retirement liveries that cater for laminitics and are probably half the cost you are paying at the moment which would leave you with plenty of money left over to either ride at a RS or maybe get a share.

Here is a link to a place that does lami livery - I don't know anything about the place but it sounds nice. If I were you I would send him to a retirement place and then get a share.

http://www.equinetranquility.co.uk/horse/retirement/laminitis_livery.htm

racingstripes

28th Aug 2009, 08:15 PM

Oh for goodness sake! FYI if it were my horse it would not be put to sleep, i would be paying for its 'useless' ass to live out the rest of its days as my expensive pet because I will only have the very best for my boys BUT what im saying is if the OP doesnt want to pay for the horse herself she should PTS instead of burdening someone else!

Erm thanks for the info but I didnt ask for it so calm down. I was merely stating that just because the O/P can't ride the horse, she shouldnt just dispose of it. If you read my other posts I agree that she shouldnt sell it on and it would be better if she were going to sell to put the horse to sleep as a charity may possibly do that anyway (I'm pretty sure the O/P wasn't going to sell it anyway!) But she asked what our thoughts were and I still think she should do the right thing and pay for its retirement. I don't expect everyone to agree because everyone has different opinions and that's what makes the world go round.

Cazie

28th Aug 2009, 08:19 PM

I'm just wondering where the OP is on this thread.. because if you set a cat amongst the pigeons you got to expect feathers to fly!

Zingy

28th Aug 2009, 08:25 PM

Agree totally with Skippys Mum.

Personally I think if you take on the responsibility of a horse, then you take on the responsibility to do the best for them, whether it's to have them pts or retired or whatever. In many cases, horses don't cost any more in retirement than when working, so I don't see how people can suddenly be unable to afford them, unless they could only afford them with sharers or on working livery. I do wish though that if people don't want to pay for a horse they can't ride, they'd do the decent thing and have them pts instead of passing them around for someone else to deal with.

eml

28th Aug 2009, 08:35 PM

I do actually keep all my horses until I see no quality of life, however in this case we are so busy looking at the financial implications of owner needing to be on full livery I suspect we are overlooking the basics.

If the horse can no longer be ridden and cannot be turned out to grass he not only cannot go on retirement livery or be a companion but is going to have a fairly miserable life confined to a stable or yard without exercise. In that case I really do think the best option is to have him PTS.

On the other hand many horses with ringbone can do some sort of work ( we have one with low ringbone who works on surfaces happily without drugs) or laminitics who could manage some types of turnout (we lost one at 25 after 15 years of working and five years turned out with careful monitoring) If that is the case then the owner could look at a loan to an experienced home who can cope with the horses problems.

Doeylicious

28th Aug 2009, 08:36 PM

I'm just wondering where the OP is on this thread.. because if you set a cat amongst the pigeons you got to expect feathers to fly!

She is probably with her horse or still at work or sorting out her teenage daughter who got her GCSE results yesterday, and noone was quite sure how good these would be.

I talk to the OP a lot on PM and she is not 100% now so may well leave her comments on the thread until she feels a bit more able to handle everyone elses, as I know she doesn't want to get in any huge rows.

She is incredibly cut up about the situation, it is very difficult for her as, unlike a lot of us on here, she doesn't have the most fantastic family support with Banjo, hence not being able to justify him.

Those of you whose partners would have no problems with you spending a huge amount of money a month on a horse that, in their opinion, just stands there, are very lucky. I know mine would not tolerate it. It sounds harsh but to those who aren't horsey it is black and white - horse does nothing, what's the point in it? That is my OH and several of my friend's views, it is hard for us horse lovers to understand but that's just the way they think.

Howengold

28th Aug 2009, 08:40 PM

could you pace my best wishes to Rach, Doey. I know she has had a rough time of it lately and this must be heartbreaking for her xx

pmcc

28th Aug 2009, 08:41 PM

not sure where i sit on this one apart from the fact that I have kept a horse for 11 years now which i never could ride because someone who had her before took all the good from her and then didnt want to know any more.

If I looked at the money aspect I might get resentful but it was my decision to take her and have never wanted to give her away cos I knew she would prob end up as dog food or something.

Maybe its different for those who can keep their retired horse at home instead of paying high livery fees and then if you wanted to keep a horse for riding that's double fees.

Just is a lesson for anyone wanting to buy a horse, to think about the 'what if' scenarios................

cinammontoast

28th Aug 2009, 08:46 PM

Been in that horrible quandary: when Boomer had his leg broken and I (stupidly) thought he might pull through, I decide if he couldn't be ridden, I would put him on retirement livery and to hell with the cost. I'd do the same for Beau. It upsets me that people sell or have horses taken away as 'companions' if they can't be ridden. Beau is a pet as well as a riding horse: I wouldn't send my dogs to Battersea if I couldn't walk them anymore.

Melting Moments

28th Aug 2009, 08:50 PM

PaleMoon has probably gone away to think about what shes going to do, its a very hard decision to make, not something you can make over night.

SO1

28th Aug 2009, 08:52 PM

I don't have a partner but if I did I would not expect them to contribute at all towards my pony.

The link I posted about the yard with the lami livery would cut her costs in half so perhaps she could afford to pay that without help from her sharers or OH.

If Banjo cannot have an enjoyable life then he should be PTS rather than left to suffer or be passed on to another home when he is not well.

If you are not paying for your horse yourself then it is a very difficult decision because it is not just about what you think but the person who pays the bills need to be consulted too.

Doeylicious

28th Aug 2009, 08:59 PM

I think she does pay for him herself, but also contributes to household income. I don't know her personal finances, only that what happens to Banjo will affect things at home.

myhorseisginger

28th Aug 2009, 09:25 PM

I applaud you PM for being realistic and responsible enough to be thinking about this. A horse is not a pet in the same way that a dog is. If someone said to you, your dog is a bit stiff and can't play fetch anymore then no, you wouldn't have it PTS. But a dog (generally speaking!) wont cost you anywhere near the amount of a horse in full livery.

If in your position I would give it a few months to see if he comes right - and stays right - if he does then great. If he didn't I would consider having him pts but to be fair it's impossible to say unless your faced with that situation. My boy would happily live out his days as a companion on grass livery but if this wasn't an option then...?

Everyone is entitled to opinions and this is of course what you have asked for but I think it is unfair to judge someone based on their question, then argue the toss when people don't agree!

I agree with B-Irish: If you did have to have your boy pts - after careful thought, weighing up all best options etc - he's not going to know. He wont think your awful for having him pts, even if he was capable of that emotion, he wouldn't be around to feel it! But YOU would know. And (this is meant in a totally non judgemental way) could you live with your decision ...?

Horses are a luxury, especially when you have to keep them on full livery(and by the way - think the 'i wouldn't keep my horse on full livery' comments are a bit unecessary) and if a major part of your horse keeping enjoyment - i.e riding - is no longer an option then i don't think it's selfish to be thinking of your options..

Good luck, fingers crossed he'll come right and you wont have to face this decision for a long time to come!x x x x

racingstripes

28th Aug 2009, 09:39 PM

A horse is not a pet in the same way that a dog is.

No offence but I disagree as that was made as a general comment.:p My horses are as much of a pet as my dog is . The cost isnt an issue I would bring into that comparison as I was well aware of costs involved when I took on the responsibilty of those animals.

I'm interested to hear what the O/P reasons are for suddenly not being able to afford livery because he cant be ridden.

SO1

28th Aug 2009, 09:47 PM

Possibly cos she has two sharers who make financial contributions and would not do so if they could not ride?

I'm interested to hear what the O/P reasons are for suddenly not being able to afford livery because he cant be ridden.

Howengold

28th Aug 2009, 09:52 PM

Possibly cos she has two sharers who make financial contributions and would not do so if they could not ride?

That is the reason sadly, she doesn't have the endless streams of money that it appears people think. xx Sorry not picking a fight but it is the truth.

racingstripes

28th Aug 2009, 09:57 PM

I can afford it - I pay the yard staff to look after him and I go down and ride.

Are you suggesting the O/P wasnt telling us the truth when she was explaining her situation then??

racingstripes

28th Aug 2009, 09:59 PM

but I also have two sharers who, if he can never be ridden again, will leave. Fine, fair enough. I can cope with that.

???

Stassy

28th Aug 2009, 10:11 PM

I'm interested to hear what the O/P reasons are for suddenly not being able to afford livery because he cant be ridden.

I don't think she said she couldn't afford the livery rather than she couldn't justify spending £650 per month on a riding horse she may never be able to ride again.

racingstripes

28th Aug 2009, 10:13 PM

Thats what I thought!

Howengold

28th Aug 2009, 10:16 PM

Are you suggesting the O/P wasnt telling us the truth when she was explaining her situation then??

theres alot more too it than the post says and thats her choice not to put it all on here.

Gruntfuttock

28th Aug 2009, 10:17 PM

No offence but I disagree as that was made as a general comment.:p My horses are as much of a pet as my dog is

Well good for you. Mine isn't.

My cat is insured for £3.5k worth of vets' fees. I love him hugely but if he developed a disease that was going to cost a lot of money to control, I'd have him PTS. Thats not because I don't think he's worth saving - he is to me. Any disease that is going to cost £3500 in treatment is going to make my poor cat feel terribly unwell. He's a CAT, he doesn't understand going to the vet, or having medicine, all he knows is that he feels ill. So, I would probably choose to have him put down.

I spent almost £2k on my last cat's vet bills, and all we managed to do was prolong the inevitable. My horse isn't a pet, she's a working animal. I'd do as much as possible to keep her comfortable. but in the long run, if she can't be kept comfortable except at great expense, then I'm not doing her any favours by keeping her alive.

CER1389

28th Aug 2009, 10:24 PM

This only becomes a problem if he can only be kept as a pet! So what would happen to him if its just old age? In fact, if he makes it through this, what is going to happen to him when he's older?

I should imagine though that was Banjo 18 or 28 then there would be no descion: he would almost certainly live out his days happily with whatever he needs, even at that expense.

I should imagine it has become a bigger descion because PM would be having to pay £650 a month for the next ten to twenty years ..... thats a long time for a horse on restricted grass, and for PM to find an alternative to riding.

Widget

28th Aug 2009, 10:26 PM

Easy to comment on a horse that is not your, but I would PTS. Only once I was sure he had no useful working life. Personally I find horses too expensive to keep if they cant do what I got it to do (if I bought it as a pet then fine, but if I want a ridden horse then, well, I want a ridden horse) and I would not be happy retiring a horse to another home. Too many if's and but's once it is out of your control. I would rather PTS on a good note. I hope it is not a decision I have to make over my horses and I really feel for you. Just be really sure before you do anything permanent.

Cate Ged

28th Aug 2009, 10:27 PM

This is a hard one for you, In an earlier post you say he was diagnosed 4 years ago so you have had a chance to look up what the ringbone will do over time. I have to admit to being ignorant of this having never had a horse withit. You say yourself that you suspect that the jumping may have been the cause of the present lameness and that the vet advised 4 weeks rest but your shared rode him after 2? Sorry if I have this wrong this is just from reading your other posts. Yes you need to think about the future for yourself and your horse but you also need to think poitively as well.

1. Has the vet been out to see Banjo? It may not be the ringbone but something else, always worth checking.

2. Give him time, it may take 6 months, but he may come sound again. He had been sound for 4 years then after jumping him again a few times he goes lame fingers crossed he will come sound again if given complete rest from riding.

3. What to do is a decision only you can make. From your post I get the impression that you will not keep him if he can't be ridden, that limits your options to: pts, this is up to you, I couldn't do it to a horse who wasn't in pain but your not me and only you can decide. Find a retirement yard, I am sure that there are plenty that will do livery much cheaper than £650 they don't have to be near you and you can visit him when you are off work. If you have a close trustworthy friend that would take him as a companion?

4. The future. Once you have decided what to do with Banjo what are you going to do? Will you get another horse? If you do you need to think about what you will do with it if it to can't be ridden. Perhaps sharing or loaning would give you the riding without the heart breaking decisions.

As I said only you can decide, you know what the other members of your family will put up with and what you can live with.

My horse is with me for life. He has his ups and downs. He has lami that almost killed him 2 years ago but he is still out in the field having fun, we just found a way to make it safe for him. He doesn't get ridden really now as he is old and has some rotation on his front feet. However I was brought up to believe that he is part of the family and therefore stays for as long as he is well. My husband might not agree with this point of view BUT he is my horse, my responsability and I my money pays for him. However you may have a different view point.

Whatever you decide give him a chance to come sound, 2 weeks is nothing, mine used to have 6 months off with leg injuries.

I hope for both your sakes he gets better. x

racingstripes

28th Aug 2009, 10:31 PM

theres alot more too it than the post says and thats her choice not to put it all on here.

Well I can understand why she wouldnt want to put all her personal business on here. But she would have to expect us to comment on the info she gives us.

I havent said the horse should be kept alive if it was in pain? We are talking of a horse that could be kept in retirment.

Just because I dont believe in putting a horse to sleep that has an opportunity of having a good quality of life in retirement doesn't mean I agree with keeping an animal alive thats in pain.

But the O/P asked for people's opinions. If my pony became lame tommorow. I would continue to pay his livery whilst I could keep him comfortable. Whether he could be ridden or not wouldnt influence my decision to have him PTS. His quality of life would influence this. I wouldnt let any of my pets suffer (Horses or dog). But thats an entirely different issue. I thought we were talking along the line of basic costs such as livery. Not £1000's for vert fee's as that could happen at any time to any horse owner.

rubysmum

28th Aug 2009, 10:38 PM

if ruby was to become unrideable tomorrow - i would fund her retirement for as long as she was painfree BUT this is primarily because at nearly 20 her lifespan is limited & because she could happily become a field ornament at a farm for fairly minimal costs - like Palemoon i would find it very hard to justify [or in fact afford] those costs for a non-rideable horse for perhaps another 20 yrs- my daughter is prepared to do without some things to fund the horses because she also enjoys riding them - i'm not sure if i would be able to "sell" her our skint lifestyle if we were looking at 20 yrs of skintness & no riding

Zingy

29th Aug 2009, 08:22 AM

I should imagine it has become a bigger descion because PM would be having to pay £650 a month for the next ten to twenty years ..... thats a long time for a horse on restricted grass, and for PM to find an alternative to riding.

Not necessarily. You're talking about a horse with a degenerative condition, so realistically you're not talking about the same lifespan as a healthy horse. Some may go on for years, but others will have a drastically shorter life as they get to the point at an early age where they cannot physically cope any more. My horse was pts at 15/16 - not really anywhere near his full life expectancy.

Ultimately in these situations, all you can do is keep them, have them pts, or send them away somewhere. There's actually little point in asking others what they would do as you do whatever your finances and your conscience allows, and those are different for all of us.

candypony

29th Aug 2009, 08:28 AM

If anything has come out of this very long-winded thread, it is that the choice is yours PM.
Everyone has different opinions and many people will believe that a horse should not be PTS until every other option has been tried - however, this is just not feasible for many of us.
You obviously dont want to keep him on the full livery any more - and thats fine, thats your opinion.
If you do keep him, like many people have said, he may well become more of a burden to you - and you dont want to feel like that about him.

Personally (I may get shot down in flames for this...) I believe that if you send an ill horse to a retirement home then you are just effectively "making space for your new horse", if the horse is in any kind of pain and/or illness then it might be the easiest way out (on your conscience) to put him into a retirement charity home but to be honest, it might be better for the horses welfare to have him PTS.

....put myself in your shoes, if I didnt have the time for him, I would probably have him PTS - however, my horse generally does need to be in work and cannot be in a field 24hrs a day - he'd get very fat and get lami! Therefore, I'm not sure that I could manage him well if he was un-rideable.

HashRouge

29th Aug 2009, 10:30 AM

One thing that is not sitting well with me is the OP's belief that Banjo couldn't cope with grass livery because he is an ex-laminitic. Sure, if he was put into a field with plenty of rich grass, maybe not. But I know many laminitics (my old loan pony for one) who live out 24/7 in the summer on restricted, poorer quality grass, and cope fine. One gelding I know suffered terrible laminitis due to the richness of the grass at our yard, after his lami flared up again even on limited grass, his owner decided it was time to move him to a different yard which was further up in the hills and had sparse, morrland type grass. He has now been there for 3 years, is out all the time in the summer, and hasn't had even a hint of a problem.
Perhaps, first, it would be worth scouting around various places in the OP's area to see if there was any way he could be retired on grass livery. Obviously if there is nowhere with the right quality of grass or provision for restricted grazing, then it wouldn't be an option, but surely it is worth a try.
I can understand the OP's point about justifying £650 a month for a horse she can't ride, but I do think there are other options that ought to at least be looked into.

Ruskii

29th Aug 2009, 11:23 AM

I myself couldn't and wouldn't justify a sum of money that big (£650) a month for a horse I couldn't ride. I'd look at retirement liveries, but if nothing suitable or sOmething I'd feel happy with I'd PTS. To me personally, horses are far to time consuming and expensive to keep like a dog or cat. If I had my own land, totally different story. But I don't so I wouldn't keep them.

Roofio

29th Aug 2009, 01:10 PM

One thing that is not sitting well with me is the OP's belief that Banjo couldn't cope with grass livery because he is an ex-laminitic...
I can understand the OP's point about justifying £650 a month for a horse she can't ride, but I do think there are other options that ought to at least be looked into.

Absolutely agree 100%.

devonlass

29th Aug 2009, 01:27 PM

No offence but I disagree as that was made as a general comment.:p My horses are as much of a pet as my dog is . The cost isnt an issue I would bring into that comparison as I was well aware of costs involved when I took on the responsibilty of those animals.

I'm interested to hear what the O/P reasons are for suddenly not being able to afford livery because he cant be ridden.

Well you live in a very rosy world don't you,do you think it's fair though to assume that everyone else can do the same as you??

Part of OP's reasons are as she stated in her post,are that she has two sharers for Banjo,who make a reasonable financial contribution,and therefore enable her to afford and justify the general cost of him.Obviously if he couldn't be ridden they would leave.I *think* when she said about coping with them leaving,she meant in a 'I can understand that and wouldn't blame them kind of way'.

A horse to most people is not the same as a dog or cat.Horses are not usually bought as domestic pet's that live in your home with you and are a companion.Horses are generally bought for a purpose (ie:riding),and as a means of a hobby for most people.They are expensive creatures to maintain anyway,and one that can no longer do any of the things you bought it for,and is actually going to cost more due to medical needs,is not something that everybody can make a life commitment to.

Ruskii

29th Aug 2009, 01:34 PM

whoops wrong thread :o

Yann

29th Aug 2009, 02:22 PM

.They are expensive creatures to maintain anyway,and one that can no longer do any of the things you bought it for,and is actually going to cost more due to medical needs,is not something that everybody can make a life commitment to.

Even if the horse has made a life commitment to you?

sarchie

29th Aug 2009, 02:28 PM

Well you live in a very rosy world don't you,do you think it's fair though to assume that everyone else can do the same as you??

A horse to most people is not the same as a dog or cat.Horses are not usually bought as domestic pet's that live in your home with you and are a companion.Horses are generally bought for a purpose (ie:riding),and as a means of a hobby for most people..

We have 4 dogs who are working dogs AND pets, they don't live in the house they are kenneled. And we don't pts when they can't work anymore, they become even more petted. Anyway back to the subject of horses...

I think this is a really difficult thread. We all have differing opinions of how we feel towards our horses and what we expect from them. I think of mine as pets, haven't ridden Gaz for ages (because of ringbone, as stated in my comment a few pages back, and shoot me down anyone for not having her pts, but I have already said she's vet checked regularly and vet is happy with her). Just because I think the way I do towards my two I don't feel badly towards people who think differently towards theirs. We are all different, like different breeds, builds, colours, temperaments etc etc, and have different ideas about what we want to do with them.

I sympathise with OP, £650 is a lot of money every month. I think she has a very difficult decision to make, but only SHE can decide what to do. She is the one paying expensive livery and only she knows what she really wants from a horse. No one on here can make that decision for her. She must be feeling like cr*p and I think all we can do it support her and not make her feel guilty if she does something that some of us wouldn't do. My circumstances are, Gaz is retired til she pops her clogs, she will stay in my care til such time as I think she is starting to lose quality of life. BUT I keep her at home.

Good luck with your decision, I don't envy you. :)

devonlass

29th Aug 2009, 03:43 PM

Even if the horse has made a life commitment to you?

Not often I disagree with you Yann,but afraid I'm going to now.I don't really believe horses make those kind of decisions,don't belive they understand the concept of that at all.Horses live where they end up,they have no choice or say in the matter,they don't choose you do they?? They will do a job for whoever owns them.They might do that job better for some than others,but don't beleive they have any real concept of making commitments to someone.Think maybe you are humanising them a bit TBH.

We have 4 dogs who are working dogs AND pets, they don't live in the house they are kenneled. And we don't pts when they can't work anymore, they become even more petted. Anyway back to the subject of horses...

I sympathise with OP, £650 is a lot of money every month. I think she has a very difficult decision to make, but only SHE can decide what to do. She is the one paying expensive livery and only she knows what she really wants from a horse. No one on here can make that decision for her. She must be feeling like cr*p and I think all we can do it support her and not make her feel guilty if she does something that some of us wouldn't do. My circumstances are, Gaz is retired til she pops her clogs, she will stay in my care til such time as I think she is starting to lose quality of life. BUT I keep her at home.

Good luck with your decision, I don't envy you. :)

On the pet thing,I was more referring to them living at home,and not having much of a purpose other than to be a companion.Obviously your situation might be a little different,but I should think for the majority of people,having a dog or a cat that can live in your home rather than expensive livery is a lot less of a financial commitment,than a horse,all other costs are less too,and doesn't matter so much if it can't do much as was never bought to do much in the first place.Hope that makes sense,but was just trying to point out that although some people were saying about horses being a 'pet' is not the same as a pet in a traditional sense.

Like you yourself even said,you keep your horse at home,and am sure if that was an option for OP,this topic would never even have come up,or if she could keep it fairly cheaply some other way,but as the situation stands she is looking at spending 8k per year minimum to keep this horse as a 'pet',with the possibilty of those costs rising if his health deteriorates.I think the people implying that she should keep him regardless,are being perhaps a little unrealistic,and harsh TBH.As you said must be a very difficult place to be for OP,and not for us to make her feel worse.

sarchie

29th Aug 2009, 07:39 PM

On the pet thing,I was more referring to them living at home,and not having much of a purpose other than to be a companion.Obviously your situation might be a little different,but I should think for the majority of people,having a dog or a cat that can live in your home rather than expensive livery is a lot less of a financial commitment,than a horse,all other costs are less too,and doesn't matter so much if it can't do much as was never bought to do much in the first place.Hope that makes sense,but was just trying to point out that although some people were saying about horses being a 'pet' is not the same as a pet in a traditional sense.

.

Ah right, got what you mean :)

Yann

29th Aug 2009, 07:55 PM

Not often I disagree with you Yann,but afraid I'm going to now.I don't really believe horses make those kind of decisions,

Of course they don't, I was merely making a point in response to the post I quoted. They do however often give us years and years of loyal and unconditional service, surely that should count for something when they're no longer able to do so?

SO1

29th Aug 2009, 08:13 PM

I think sometimes people move horses to retirement livery places not because they want to make space for the new horse but because a retirement livery can often cater better to a retired horses needs than perhaps a normal livery.

Older or less mobile horses might not do well living with a group of younger more playful horses who might bully them. An older horse may benefit from a quieter place.

Retirement liveries often have the option of living out and that can be better quality of life for the non ridden horse and arthritics can benefit from living out and having gentle movement.

Also why spend extra money paying for facilities you do not need - a retired horse does not need a menage or jumps or access to off road hacking etc.

Joyscarer

29th Aug 2009, 08:16 PM

Horses aren't only about riding. It's the whole package for me and I love WHO my horse is rather than what she can do for me.

If the costs remained the same as when she were sound then I couldn't possible imagine valuing my enjoyment of riding above the costs of keeping her. She has my unconditional love whether she appreciates that or not! I could also afford for those costs to increase and still be able t handle that but there will be a line somewhere.

There are only a couple of circumstances I can think off off the top of my head that would have me considering have Joy put to sleep.

1. If she not getting a minimum quality of life and were in pain.

2. I couldn't afford to keep her and couldn't find her a home that could provide here with a minimum quality of life.

Skippys Mum

29th Aug 2009, 08:21 PM

rookierider

29th Aug 2009, 08:22 PM

Red Wings have horses up for adoption and when looked at their site alot were laminitics and homes were to be vetted etc.

Is it worth asking Redwings for how they advise people adopting laminitics to manage it and how they vet good homes? It must be possible and it may help somewhere in your decision, even if it is something you try that doesn't help.
I have friends who successfully manage laminitics, my daughter's pony had had a bout before us too, we have to be careful but he's looking great. Don't give up hope if you choose to loan or give as a companion, there are some genuine, good people out there I am sure would not ride him & are very capable. I don't know though how bad his laminitis is in fairness Rach so maybe you haver ruled that option out if Banjo gets it very bad.

I really feel for you right now. It is a terrible decision to make for anyone and everyones situation is different. I am sure you will be supported whatever you decide if it happens. In the meantime sending you both a virtual hug and keeping everything crossed Banjo can get better xx

lottie.dot

29th Aug 2009, 08:44 PM

Oh Dear...!

I have read most of the replies and again on touchy subjects like this, it reminds me that even though we all have horses on here, we are all very different!!!!

Personally, I would never put my horse to sleep if I couldn't ride it, hell I would only do it, if it was in pain that wouldn't end. AND I think there is a real difference here in what we think pain is....!

PALEMOON - IF and IF you love your horse like you have stated, then you find a away around. It's called coping and surviving. We all do it in life and just get on with it (well some do, some wont) I get the impression your love ''your'' yard and are not keen on moving from it - I think you may have to if you want cheaper livery but moving doesn't mean the end of the world.

You have two sharers, who you said ride twice a week each and you do two day's with Banjo having a day off. Why not find cheaper livery and get two riding lessons a week on the same riding horse. This can be done within your budget easily and at least this way you get to keep your horse... OR share a horse which would be cheaper than two lessons and and again ride twice a week. There are lots of options out there and lots can be done in your situation

However, I will say before you start getting too much into this, lets see how Banjo comes along with what the future holds for him.

devonlass

29th Aug 2009, 08:49 PM

Of course they don't, I was merely making a point in response to the post I quoted. They do however often give us years and years of loyal and unconditional service, surely that should count for something when they're no longer able to do so?

I quite agree in the normal scheme of things.I would hope to give an older horse that had served me a well,a much deserved and happy retirement.

However if I kept my horse in the manner OP does (not meant in a negative way BTW,is obviously her only option),and managed that by having sharers,and justified the cost by doing something productive with it as my hobby,then am not sure I could or would keep it going for years at that kind of cost.In 5 years OP could be looking at spendingover £40,000,that's a lot of money!! What if the horse lives for another 10 years,that's double the amount:eek:.
I really can't see how anyone,with the best will in the world could think that's reasonable:confused:,no matter how fond you are of the horse,or how many years loyal service he or she has given you.Also in OP's case (and would be the same in mine),how reasonable is it to ask other members of your family to go without to fund this well meaning,but very expensive commitment??

Sorry to waffle on,but just think there's a world of difference between what we would like to,or should do,and what many of us actually can do in reality.

Skippys Mum

29th Aug 2009, 08:59 PM

Also in OP's case (and would be the same in mine),how reasonable is it to ask other members of your family to go without to fund this well meaning,but very expensive commitment??

When my husband and I got together he had a fancy car, foreign holidays, money in his pocket. Thanks to the houseful of useless potlickers (dogs), waste of space no hope mousers (cats), rickety old nags (sorry Arnie, you're not rickety;)) and refugees from the broth pot (my sheepies:D) he is now permanently skint - and wouldnt have it any other way:D.

And he wasnt even that keen on animals to start with:D

KateWooten

29th Aug 2009, 09:05 PM

houseful of useless potlickers

You have a dishwasher too though, right ?

Skippys Mum

29th Aug 2009, 09:07 PM

You have a dishwasher too though, right ?

Yes but he's usually too busy hoovering;)

devonlass

29th Aug 2009, 09:33 PM

I'm just curious to where all these people expect their older or slightly infirm horses are going to go to.

I find it quite upsetting that so many on here only see horses as a piece of equipment.

As far as humanizing them goes Devonlass, what else can we do? We have taken them out of the wild, every one of us who has bought one has taken on responsibility for them. Should our responsibility stop just because they are broken.

This isnt a set of golf clubs we are talking about here:(.

I dont necessarily feel the horse has to stay at £650 a month livery (jeez, if she gives me half of that I'll look after him:)) but he is clearly not ready to be pts just yet. Surely the OP can take the vets advice and try the injections - he may well come sound in which case they can all live happily ever after (with no more jumping) and if he doesnt, at least she would know that she has tried?

I do get annoyed with the "oh I love them so much - its breaking my heart" comments. Where's the heartbreak - just keep him??? This comment applies not just to the OP but to all the threads where people are trying to justify getting rid of a supposedly much loved pet. If you are wanting to get rid, do it. Dont expect everyone else to pat you on the back and tell you there there there. Decide what you love best, the horse or the riding or jumping or eventing or whatever. There are people on here who have no choice but to get rid of there horses. I read a thread not 5 minutes ago that made me want to weep for the poor poster. I dont feel any sympathy for the ones who have a choice.

And once again, so its quite clear how I feel, if he turns out to be permanently lame AND UNHAPPY IN THE FIELD then I have no problems whatsoever with him being pts. In that case, it would be the humane and responsible choice for him.

I know they're not golf clubs hun,didn't mean anything like that and sorry if it came across that way and upset you:o

Just to be clear as well before everyone thinks I'm totally heartless,I personally would try and keep my horse if I could do it within a reasonable cost for livery and health costs,and I could manage the time commitments of the livery,(before anyone thinks that sounds lame it IS a big factor for me,I don't drive and have kids so any yard would have to be near by if I had to do DIY etc,which is another reason I can sympathise with OP on the whole not being able to move yard thing).

My replies however were based on the OP's situation,and my opinion based on the information she supplied.It is of course only my opinion,but that still still stands,and in OP's situation I don't think it would be unreasonable for her to consider PTS.Of course if there were other options,such as treatments and OP could afford them,then that would obviously be worth trying first,but in the event of Banjo had to be retired,and effectively nothing could be done with him,then I for one am not about to blame OP for not being willing or able to spend that kind of money and time on his upkeep.

Some of the replies on this thread have frustrated and surprised me a little if I'm honest,(sorry:o) the amount of people who seem to have the attitude that people should keep their horses no matter what.Not all of us have the means and time to do that,we do the best we can for that animal,and maybe if we can't look after them ourselves,then the best we can do is PTS.

We must also remember that not all of us view horses the same way.Some people do have horse to do stuff on,that is why they bought them,to do a job.I personally didn't buy mine to do anything more than have a bit of fun on,but doesn't mean people who have them to do more serious stuff on are wrong to have them for that reason,or that they are wrong to like the activity more than the horse itself,just different way's of looking at it I guess.

Anyway,hopefully Banjo will become sound again,and none of this will apply,will all have been rowing for nothing lol:p

Shelby&Me

29th Aug 2009, 10:01 PM

My mare is 10yo, when i paid up i did so in the knowledge that she could be with me for the next 20 or so years. Although you cant plan for everything, as an owner, you do take on responsibiltiy of that animal. I feel that i have a duty of care towards my animal. I love my horse to bits, not as a commodity but as a pet, regardless of what she can give me or do for me. For every time she leans her head on my shoulder, whinnies to me over the fence, falls asleep while im grooming her or follows me in the school, i know i would never pts, sell etc unless there was no option whatsoever. In this case there are. I fully expect to be shot down in flames for this but i feel its more about not wanting to leave the yard than considering other available options. Simply, do what is best for your horse, not what is desirable for you.

Stassy

30th Aug 2009, 07:44 AM

Its lovely when people buy a horse they say its going to be with them for the rest of their lives no matter what. The majority of people don't or can't make that committment, doesn't mean to say they don't love their horse or that its not heart breaking when they come to rehome.

There are 2 national magazines in this country dedicated to selling horses, other magazines with a horses for sale section, numerous websites including a classified on here, people sell/loan horses all the time. Whether it be can't afford, outgrown, semi-retired looking for a quieter life, too good for rider, horse not up to the job, loss of grazing, breeders selling their foals/youngstock, owner giving up, horse getting too old and wanting a younger model (rarely admitted in adverts), work/family/uni committments, surplus to requirements, retired - can't be ridden the list goes on. Nobody has given these horses a home for life even if the owner has a choice.

The point is horses are rehomed all the time whatever the reason and its generally how we aquire our horses in the first place, because someone was selling/loaning/giving them away, very few have one home for life I would think.

As already said most people buy horses to do a job when the horse is not up to the job then what? I don't think there is nobody I know who hasn't rehomed their horse(s) at some point for any of the reasons above, then bought a new one whether straight away or later on.

Another consideration for PM is if Banjo has to retire and the vet said he would be fine, she could find him a companion home (if retirement livery was not an option) where they would pay the day to day costs but any medication costs borne by PM which would probably appeal to potential homes looking for a companion horse, that way PM wouldn't have the full cost of keeping a horse but still plays a part in his life. Its just a suggestion.

sammie_85

30th Aug 2009, 08:00 AM

I totally understand how hard this must be for you. I think I would put in retirement but seek vets advice as to whether he is in pain, etc and be guided by that too. No doubt he will let you know though if he is not happy.

Looking back, agree with Stassy that someone may take him on as a companion horse and that sounds a good idea if you really cannot keep him.

hannafordj@goog

30th Aug 2009, 08:10 AM

can i just say i havent read through every post on here, as i really need to get ready and take my little girl to ride so if i repeat anything anyone has said im sorry.

i think in PM's situation we all need to be very understanding about what they are going through. it must be heartbreaking. with regards to what to do, i cant see how they can keep a riding horse that cant be ridden. her options include some sort of retirement livery at best, or at worst PTS. I can totaly empathise with everyone getting upset at the PTS option, but at the end of the day,imo, most horses are happier with a job, and being a native breed i thinks its even more important that they do have a job because of the risk as mentioned of lami. most horses arent truely happy doing nothing, and when they do get older then certainly, retire them if you want to for a couple of happy years eating grass and chilling but thats when they are older, and to retire them through illness is another thing altogether.

as many people have said on here, when you take a horse on it is a lifetime commitment, but only for the lifetime of that horse, and when something happens like this you have to realistically look at what you can do for them, and selling them on is not something that you can do in this case as you dont know where they will end up.

if it were my horse, id try the injections, but first try to lami proof them as much as possible, drop a load of weight off (think near RSPCA case!) get them as physically fit as possible, and start on an anti lam sopplement (i use topspec). once you know he isnt going to have a chance without the injections that for me is the only route to take. if that doesnt work, then at least you're making any permenant or long term decisions knowing you've tried anything.

and retirement livery probably wont be an option for this horse, speaking from experiance lami is a crippling disease, most retirement places i know have horses living out and this doesnt sound like an option for him. and if a horse hasnt got a job, and cant just be a horse and graze all day with its chums what quality of life does it really have. a tough decision to make and not a nice place to be so big hugs and good luck hun. im sure you'll do the right thing

HorseBird

30th Aug 2009, 09:25 AM

I thoroughly agree with hannafordj (again, haven't read all the posts). If banjo can't work anymore, and is a laminitic, then his turnout is likely to be extremely compromised from now on. Will he really be happy spending most of each day confined to a box or bald paddock with nothing to do but either stare at four walls when in or be bothered by flies or bad weather when out? I know the PTS option sounds harsh, but it's not just about giving them a life, it's about giving them a quality of life. The question here is would Banjo actually have the latter? Mauybe we should all forget the money side of things for a moment and look at it from Banjo's point of view.

Stassy

30th Aug 2009, 09:42 AM

[QUOTE=HorseBird;2422665]Will he really be happy spending most of each day confined to a box or bald paddock with nothing to do but either stare at four walls when in or be bothered by flies or bad weather when out?/QUOTE]

Lots of horses already spend their lives like this. Stable kept horses get confined to their box most of the day and night. Lots of ponies up and down the country get kept in a bare paddock to keep the weight off. And many horses/ponies live out 24/7 even when the weather is bad.

Who's to say Banjo is going to be unhappy. What is his routine now? My guess is he has a stable he already spends part of the day or all night in, flies bother every horse and you can't control the weather. Why is it when a horse retires or has suffered from laminitis people assume they are going to be unhappy and miserable when they can't be ridden ever again.

hannafordj@goog

30th Aug 2009, 12:00 PM

he probably does spend a lot of the day being managed now as a laminitic, but hes also rode 6 times a week as well, so that involves at least (imo) 2 hours of something to do each day, by the time hes been groomed, tacked up, rode etc thats a biggish portion of daylight hours taken up. and if he is on a livery yard its probably like ours and pretty busy all day with horses and people coming and going, feed going round a couple of times a day and mucking out etc. retirement yards i would imagine are completly different, much quieter which probably suits some ponies but not all.

owning a welsh sec a myself, i know that native breeds can be difficult to manage on any kind of box rest. we had 12 months of it on and off after a ligament op, and luckily for us shes now completely sound (touch wood). but i had made the decision that if she didnt come sound enough to be in some kind of work that at 8 years old, she would be pts. it wasnt an easy decision to make, but i couldnt guarantee her any quality of life if she didnt come sound,the vets couldnt guarantee that she would be able to live out with her injury, and we also had to consider lami. i dont believe in putting any old mare in foal either just because they cant work, there are enough sec a foals without homes already, and by the time foalie had grown up my daughter would have been ready for a bigger pony. breed from a mare thats lame that has something special about her bloodlines (mines 90% coed coch btw) but not unless you can also offer that foal a permenant home yourself should you be unable to sell.

its a very difficult situation to be in, and there probably is no right or wrong answer. with the best will in the world its impossible to leave finances out of it, because at the end of the day horses are a very expensive hobby. in an ideal world we'd all have somewhere to put old or injured ponies that suited there every need, but realistically there isnt anywhere like that. some people are lucky enough to have there own land so can keep them at home for less expense than livery should they need to, and can probably keep there horses content that way, as they probably have the time too. not all of us have that luxury, and as a horse owner it is something i do worry about myself. i have heard that the RSPCA have just launched a 'home for life' campaign, but i think thats for if you die, but we could all do with somewhere like that for if we need to retire our horses for whatever reason.

sarchie

30th Aug 2009, 12:10 PM

When my husband and I got together he had a fancy car, foreign holidays, money in his pocket. Thanks to the houseful of useless potlickers (dogs), waste of space no hope mousers (cats), rickety old nags (sorry Arnie, you're not rickety;)) and refugees from the broth pot (my sheepies:D) he is now permanently skint - and wouldnt have it any other way:D.

And he wasnt even that keen on animals to start with:D

Hmm, that's what my OH calls my animals too, apart from the odd word added on which I can't put on here!! :eek:;)

Stassy

30th Aug 2009, 12:33 PM

hannafordj@goog

30th Aug 2009, 01:10 PM

Quite right we don't live in an ideal world and as you say horses are an expensive hobby and for the majority can only commit that expense if they get something back i.e. riding. Its harsh for the horse but thats the reality of a lot of horse owners. My point above was just because a horse can't be ridden 1 or 2 hours a day doesn't mean their quality of life goes down hill, they don't always need something to do. They can still be brushed and have time spent with them and see the comings and goings of a yard. And a horse with laminitis can be managed but everyone's situation and everyones horses are different I'm just generalising.

i know you are hun, and i know there are some circumstances in which a retired pony can happily spend its later years munching grass and chilling with its mates, and in some cases maybe going to the odd show for veteran classes and such. my friend has around 10 ponies, none of which are rode (she breeds sec a's and has no small jock) and they are all very happy healthy ponies, but they do have a job (win rosettes and have babies! lol). each case is different and probably the only person who knows what will be best for banjo is banjo's mum. i do think that there is a lack of places that offer quality retirement livery tho, a lot of owners end up in a similar situation, and i dont think its ever wise to let a pony go as a 'companion' unless you know the home its going to very well, as you just dont know what could happen to them. its the same as selling them really, but as normally only a small amount of money changes hands for a companion pony, i think it increases the risk of them endfing up somewhere awful, especially if they have medical conditions that may need vets, medication for life etc.

i think i'll look into setting up a retirement village for ponies when i win lottery! 50 acres, 50 stables and 50 happy content ponies living out there days with me! we can all grow old together! wonder if i can give them all a nice blue rinse and teach em to play bingo!

joking aside tho it is a serious issue,and a heartbraking situation to be in, made all the more difficult cos of evil,evil lami.

HorseBird

30th Aug 2009, 10:47 PM

Who's to say Banjo is going to be unhappy.

Who indeed? I'm not saying he will be unhappy and I have no idea what his routine is at the moment. My point is that many people are arguing the point as to whether the horse should be kept alive for the financial reasons - the priority should be whether it's actually right for the horse or not. And as for the retired horses up and down the country - I have no problem with retiring horses if they can be in a routine that suits them, but how many of them are alive for the owner's sake rather than their own?

Stassy

31st Aug 2009, 08:02 AM

Will he really be happy spending most of each day confined to a box or bald paddock with nothing to do but either stare at four walls when in or be bothered by flies or bad weather when out?

Who indeed? I'm not saying he will be unhappy and I have no idea what his routine is at the moment. And as for the retired horses up and down the country - I have no problem with retiring horses if they can be in a routine that suits them, but how many of them are alive for the owner's sake rather than their own?

And how many are PTS for their owner's sake rather than their own?

Anyway this thread has run its course. PM has made no further response and we've all given her our opinion. I've got nothing more to say on the matter.

Hammie

31st Aug 2009, 08:14 AM

A lot of people have been saying "If she can afford £650 for a sound horse she can afford £650 for a lame one", but apart from losing the sharer's contribution, what if riding (as opposed to horse care) is her passion and she wants another horse to ride as well? That could mean 20 years or whatever of keeping 2 horses at that kind of price.

Obviously the financial consideration isn't the only one, but I don't think we can compare keeping horses as pets to keeping dogs or cats as pets (much cheaper to keep + don't live as long!)

HorseBird

31st Aug 2009, 07:34 PM

Stassy you're missing the point - you're using two of my quotes as if they contradict each other but in fact 'Will he really be happy....' is me asking a question, not making a statement. Again, I've no idea whether he'll be happy or not, I'm merely questioning the fact to try look at this from the horses point of view, not a monetary one.

Jeez, I bet PM wishes she'd never started this thread! :rolleyes:

sophi95

31st Aug 2009, 07:44 PM

loopy1

1st Sep 2009, 12:01 PM

i will keep him and look after him for the rest of his life, however long that may be now. until either he dies or has to be pts for humane reasons.
i am waiting to find out if he is going to recover from an illness/op. if he does i will then see if he can ever be ridden again. if not i dont really mind, ive other horses to ride and he owes me nothing, hes been my best mate for 20 odd years.

Kc..

1st Sep 2009, 12:03 PM

Okay, if it were Nimby i would never ever give him up.

Lisa&Lady

1st Sep 2009, 12:20 PM

To me, this whole thread just seems to be horse v's money.

What im finding hard to accept is that there are people on here who continously write how much they love there horse etc etc, but then if it couldnt be ridden, would be shipped off to some retirement place.

To me, if you buy an animal, any animal, its for life, full stop.

If the OP's horse is in pain, then yes, put to sleep, but if he's not then there's no reason why she cant keep it on grass livery etc

It wasnt so long ago I was told that Lady would never be ridden again, but not once did I ever think of down-grading her livery just because I couldnt ride her.

Once again this is only my opinion, not wanting to get into a row with anyone.

loopy1

1st Sep 2009, 12:29 PM

If the OP's horse is in pain, then yes, put to sleep, but if he's not then there's no reason why she cant keep it on grass livery etc

.

im not sure, dont want to go back thru threads, but i think the horse has had a lami attack in the past?

ive nothing against selling healthy younger animals, if people didnt sell there'd be nnothing for me to buy :) but i hate to see old and damaged horses for sale, it upsets me and im not a softy either!

my 20odd year old has been with me his entire life and although now, to the eyes of many he mighht be a worthless, useless old nag, to me he's priceless :)

Hullabaloo

1st Sep 2009, 12:32 PM

i really do feel for you and your horse but the " never ever ride anymore part" is not the end of the world ... i have an auntie who rarely rides her gelding but she still has fun with him , like clicker training him to pick up dumbells and spending alot of quality time with him on the ground, she also takes him on walks in hand through the countryside which he really enjoys :)

That's great for your auntie, but I have a horse because I enjoy riding. I have no interest in training a horse to pick up dumbells or take my horse for a walk thought the countryside. Maybe not "the end of the world", but having a horse who couldn't be ridden would be a major consideration for me.

The other issue for me would be that I'm in my 40s. I enjoy competing in show jumping and cross country. While I hope I will be able to do that for the next 20 + years, there are no guarantees and I do feel that I need to get on and do things now. The cost of keeping my horse has an impact on my OH too and that is something I need to consider.
Maybe in an ideal world these things would not be considerations, but for those of us living in the real world, I'm afraid are.

It is a horrible situation to be in. I really don't know what I would do and hope I am never in the position where I find out. My sympathy goes out to anyone who has this difficult decision to make.

lottie.dot

1st Sep 2009, 12:34 PM

It is a horrible situation to be in. I really don't know what I would do and hope I am never in the position where I find out. My sympathy goes out to anyone who has this difficult decision to make.

My sympathy goes to the poor horses whose owners don't want them when they cannot be ridden!

Lisa&Lady

1st Sep 2009, 12:50 PM

im not sure, dont want to go back thru threads, but i think the horse has had a lami attack in the past?

ive nothing against selling healthy younger animals, if people didnt sell there'd be nnothing for me to buy :) but i hate to see old and damaged horses for sale, it upsets me and im not a softy either!

my 20odd year old has been with me his entire life and although now, to the eyes of many he mighht be a worthless, useless old nag, to me he's priceless :)

But lami horses can be managed, its not the end of the world just because he has had an attack in the past.

He can be put on restricted grazing, nothing wrong with that.

Plus, what the hell is full livery at £650 for, thats nearly double what i pay for Lady, and I get everything included.

I'd like to know what £650 includes.

loopy1

1st Sep 2009, 12:53 PM

loopy1

1st Sep 2009, 12:57 PM

But lami horses can be managed, its not the end of the world just because he has had an attack in the past.

He can be put on restricted grazing, nothing wrong with that.

Plus, what the hell is full livery at £650 for, thats nearly double what i pay for Lady, and I get everything included.

I'd like to know what £650 includes.

i think the op said he couldnt be retired to grass because of it?

£650 :eek: i know!!
is £180 up the road from me, very very nice place too, not some dodgy old place!
dont know where PM lives though...prob south by those prices

rtk

1st Sep 2009, 01:01 PM

This is going to turn into another cubbing thread.

Its going round and round in circles, half of the board would keep their oldie in retirement the other half either would not or could not.

Neither is right or wrong as long as the horse does not suffer.

Can you all give it a rest now.

The OP has not been on for days, I really hope its not because the replies have upset her, no doubt she was feeling bad enough to start with

SO1

1st Sep 2009, 01:02 PM

I don't think horses think in the same terms as us - they don't think oh no I am old or ill I am going to get PTS and worry about it. I don't think the horse will suffer from being PTS.

If the OP can only get pleasure out of riding her horse and her OH will not let her keep a horse that can't have sharers due to the financial contribution they make then I feel very sorry for her having to make such a difficult situation.

Those of us who are more lucky in knowing that they would still get pleasure from just seeing their horse and giving them a cuddle and can afford to to keep a non ridden horse should not be so judgemental.

However this thread probably does highlite that people do need to think about the future when they consider buying a horse as even if they do plan to sell the horse on before it gets old anything can before then.

Raspberry

1st Sep 2009, 01:02 PM

£650 :eek: i know!!
is £180 up the road from me, very very nice place too, not some dodgy old place!
dont know where PM lives though...prob south by those prices

I am from down south- £650 is still a huge amount for full livery here too!

I'm not going to comment too much on the OP. If I was in the situation where one or both of my two could no longer be ridden then as long as I could offer them a good quality of life I would keep them. But then riding isn't that important to me, I just love my ponies and they are part of my family. Everyone's different and I respect that. I hope you can work out what's best for both yourself and Banjo Pale Moon :)

devonlass

1st Sep 2009, 01:10 PM

i think the op said he couldnt be retired to grass because of it?

£650 :eek: i know!!
is £180 up the road from me, very very nice place too, not some dodgy old place!
dont know where PM lives though...prob south by those prices

Full livery near me is anywhere from £80-£130 per week,and I am south west so not the most expensive area,think it varies a lot from palce to place,and yard to yard TBH.

OP in is Lancashire area I believe,think those figures though include absolutely everything inc Banjo's supplements/meds that he has to have.Also OP's yard have a policy that all horses are in 24/7 in winter,so probably have higher hay and bedding costs.

Perhaps the being in all winter also has a bearing on her decision regarding Banjo's future?? If he can't be ridden,it will be worse for him when has to be in all the time.Not saying it does have a bearing,not a mind reader obviously,but is just another thing that would cause problems if he couldn't be ridden,and am sure OP would have thought about every aspect of it even if hasn't posted them all on here.

Hullabaloo

1st Sep 2009, 01:26 PM

[QUOTE=Hullabaloo;2426358]
Maybe in an ideal world these things would not be considerations, but for those of us living in the real world, I'm afraid are.

QUOTE]

lol, im sure youre not really meaning that anyone keeping an unrideable horse isnt 'living in the real world' :)

i honestly dont mind if it turns out i cant ride my old horse again if he recovers as i have other horses to ride and compete

No, I was trying to say (maybe not too clearly) that for many people there are a lot of outside factors that influence their decision of what to do with an unrideable horse. I would love to have unlimited funds and eternal youth, but I don't so would be in a position where I had a tough decision to make. I'm not fortunate enough to have other horses to ride and compete and couldn't afford to keep more than one, so it is an issue for me.

One thing I have already said is that my horse will never be passed on. I will take responsibility for whatever happens to him. In my opinion there are far worse things you can do for an unridable horse than pts.

Pale Moon

1st Sep 2009, 01:33 PM

She is probably with her horse or still at work or sorting out her teenage daughter who got her GCSE results yesterday, and noone was quite sure how good these would be.

I talk to the OP a lot on PM and she is not 100% now so may well leave her comments on the thread until she feels a bit more able to handle everyone elses, as I know she doesn't want to get in any huge rows.

She is incredibly cut up about the situation, it is very difficult for her as, unlike a lot of us on here, she doesn't have the most fantastic family support with Banjo, hence not being able to justify him.

Those of you whose partners would have no problems with you spending a huge amount of money a month on a horse that, in their opinion, just stands there, are very lucky. I know mine would not tolerate it. It sounds harsh but to those who aren't horsey it is black and white - horse does nothing, what's the point in it? That is my OH and several of my friend's views, it is hard for us horse lovers to understand but that's just the way they think.

Thanks Doey.

And thanks A LOT to those of you who have chosen to pull me to shreds, when I specifically asked you not to, because I am upset about this situation enough as it is!

My husband, who pays the majority of my livery bill WILL NOT agree to fund
full livery, so that I can keep a horse as a pet, to go down and groom once a day. He is NOT a pet - he is a riding horse. So what??? I bought a horse to ride, not to keep as a pet! Everyone is different, but I certainly didn't deserve to be jumped on from a great height because of it!

I do not intend to do anything as a "knee-jerk" reaction to this. I will be doing everything that I can to get Banjo right again, including the steroid injections and as much time off as is necessary to see if he comes sound.

Thanks to Doey and all the others on here who have been supportive over this - I am sick to my stomach by what has happened and worried out of my mind - I just hope to all the condemners that it never happens to you.

Howengold

1st Sep 2009, 01:35 PM

Big hugs Rach and like I said previously I wish we had the room on my yard as I would retire him here for you for free. xx thinking of you at this tough time xx

Hullabaloo

1st Sep 2009, 01:41 PM

Thanks Doey.

I do not intend to do anything as a "knee-jerk" reaction to this. I will be doing everything that I can to get Banjo right again, including the steroid injections and as much time off as is necessary to see if he comes sound.

Good luck with the treatment and fingers crossed he comes sound.

izo

1st Sep 2009, 01:44 PM

can i just ask why your husband funds the full livery? i thought you had a fab job? :confused: so why is your hubby footing the bill? (sorry being nosey and not wanting to start arguement :D )

madlady

1st Sep 2009, 01:56 PM

PM - you must do whatever is right for you and for Banjo. I think it is horrendous the way you have been jumped on.

I am very very lucky in that I have my own land and stables so I no longer have the retirement worries but believe you me if I was still on a livery yard then it would be a huge consideration for me, I think that we all like to think that we can keep our horses forever 'whatever' but the reality is often very different with lots more things to be considered than what the owner wants - how about quality of life for the horse?

In your situation I would probably (if worst came to worst and he wasn't going to come sound) give him a mini retirement - few weeks of fuss and pampering and then PTS. I would not take the risk of loaning out and on livery I wouldn't be able to justify those sorts of costs, or want to see horse in continual pain.

Bella & Tessa

1st Sep 2009, 03:54 PM

This is why i dont come on here alot!!!! what an awful response Rachel has had!!!!

Rachel my offer still stands pm me anytime hunny im here xxxxxxxxx

Pale Moon

2nd Sep 2009, 01:08 PM

can i just ask why your husband funds the full livery? i thought you had a fab job? :confused: so why is your hubby footing the bill? (sorry being nosey and not wanting to start arguement :D )

I'm sorry, but I don't think that my families finances have anything to do with people on an open forum!

Suffice it to say that yes, I do earn good money, but my husband earns the lions share in our family, as he is an accountant (I'm a PA but earn nothing like he does).

At the end of the day, whilst my husband is fully supportive of my hobby and is quite happy for over six hundred quid a month to come out of our joint finances (this is not just livery by the way but insurance, farriery, vet's fees, insurance, dentistry, blah blah blah - my livery is £100.00 per week) - he will not sanction paying £150.00 a week to keep a horse as a pet.

Once again, thanks to everyone of my friends who have taken the time to post supportive and encouraging comments. I will reply to your PMs as soon as I can - am at work at the moment and on lunch so not much time.

x

Pale Moon

2nd Sep 2009, 01:25 PM

But lami horses can be managed, its not the end of the world just because he has had an attack in the past.

He can be put on restricted grazing, nothing wrong with that.

Plus, what the hell is full livery at £650 for, thats nearly double what i pay for Lady, and I get everything included.

I'd like to know what £650 includes.

The £650.00 is a GLOBAL monthly amount that it costs me to keep my horse.

This includes livery of £100.00 per week, Farriery, Dentistry, Insurance, Feed Supplements, Vet's fees, blah, blah, blah.

Lisa&Lady

2nd Sep 2009, 01:39 PM

The £650.00 is a GLOBAL monthly amount that it costs me to keep my horse.

This includes livery of £100.00 per week, Farriery, Dentistry, Insurance, Feed Supplements, Vet's fees, blah, blah, blah.

Ah right, I thought you meant £650 for livery full stop.

:)

Lucy_Angel

2nd Sep 2009, 01:44 PM

Surely if your horse is retired then he will not need as much feed, supplements, insurance and could he go barefoot?

Lisa&Lady

2nd Sep 2009, 01:50 PM

i think the op said he couldnt be retired to grass because of it?

But lami can be managed, if he is retired to restricted grazing, then he should be fine.

Im just saying that I know plenty of horses that have had lami in the past and have been retired to grass. Its just a case of managing it correctly.

And as someone else mentionned above me, if he is retired, does he need all the dentistry and farriery etc

Maybe that is another option the OP could look at??? :confused:

rtk

2nd Sep 2009, 01:58 PM

I have kept out of this for the most part because I hoped that once everyone had a say they might give up causing upset for the OP.

Its not going to happen so.....

I can only guess that those who think horses are a lot cheaper to keep in retirement either have their own places or give their horses a much lower standard of care than they had been used to.

Although my oldie is not actually retired he might as well be.

When I have tried to make him go barefoot he was miserably uncomfortable, hobbled around the stable, yard and field until even the farrier (who originally wanted them removed) decided that he was not going to be happy without them.

Older horses, or those with joint problems benefit from being kept warm and dry, same as old people really. So my oldie still has to come in at night and be rugged in bad weather. In fact he has more gear than the younger ones.

To keep him mobile and in top condition he still needs just a much feed and supplements, in fact more than the younger ones. I dont have pans of barley on my cooker 24/7 in winter for anyone other than him.

He needs as much or more bedding than any other horse

No you cant get insurance for him which means that any vets bills I have to pay out of my own pocket. Actually he is insured for third party.

So can I suggest that unless people are rich or are prepared to dump their oldies out in a field in all weather (and I see a lot of that) that they consider what they will do if they are put in Pale Moons situation.

Oh and I haven't given up with his dentist checks or injections either

trieste

2nd Sep 2009, 02:02 PM

I have kept out of this for the most part because I hoped that once everyone had a say they might give up causing upset for the OP.

Its not going to happen so.....

I can only guess that those who think horses are a lot cheaper to keep in retirement either have their own places or give their horses a much lower standard of care than they had been used to.

Although my oldie is not actually retired he might as well be.

When I have tried to make him go barefoot he was miserably uncomfortable, hobbled around the stable, yard and field until even the farrier (who originally wanted them removed) decided that he was not going to be happy without them.

Older horses, or those with joint problems benefit from being kept warm and dry, same as old people really. So my oldie still has to come in at night and be rugged in bad weather. In fact he has more gear than the younger ones.

To keep him mobile and in top condition he still needs just a much feed and supplements, in fact more than the younger ones. I dont have pans of barley on my cooker 24/7 in winter for anyone other than him.

He needs as much or more bedding than any other horse

No you cant get insurance for him which means that any vets bills I have to pay out of my own pocket. Actually he is insured for third party.

So can I suggest that unless people are rich or are prepared to dump their oldies out in a field in all weather (and I see a lot of that) that they consider what they will do if they are put in Pale Moons situation.

Completely agree, my oldie was costing me over £100 each month in food alone, without livery, supplements etc.

Lgd

2nd Sep 2009, 02:07 PM

I think for you to make progress on this you need to do a few things.

1. Get a proper diagnosis from the vet and hence a realistic prognosis of the long term outcomes and possible treatment strategies. I get the impression that you feel more than the ringbone is going on here (and FWIW I agree with you). If it is the ringbone then he is better off kept moving and a specialist remedial farrier would be of great help. (Hayden Price is the best!)

2. Armed with the above information, set a date by which it would be realistic to see an improvement or resolution in his symptoms.

3. Have a plan in place if no improvement occurs or if his quality of life worsens. Make the decision now rather than trying to prolong the situation 'just in case'.

4. Make a plan for the final day. Decide now who and how for the final deed. Decide on how you wish to deal with disposal (i.e. crem and ashes back, or nothing). Sounds cold and callous now but better to do it that way than in the midst of all the other emotions you will have to deal with. Decide now if you want to be there or not - for some people they find it an awful way to end the relationship, for others it offers some sort of closure.

Many have focused solely on the cost issues you are facing but I feel that the over-riding issue is his quality of life and unless he can be a happy pain-free field ornament on grass livery retirement (which is clearly not an option given his lammi issues) or at least capable of some light riding duties then the PTS option is actually the kindest route to go and fulfils the duty of care we all owe our horses.

Thestral

2nd Sep 2009, 02:20 PM

I haven't read all the posts.

I was in the same situation with my mare, I couldn't get her sound enough to keep her in work for any period, she had all the tests known to veterinary science and all the care she required. She is VERY VERY happy in her retirement which she is now 2 years into. I want to make it very clear that she is only unsound when worked and not in any discomfort out of work.

I took her to a friends farm where she has other retired horses and she's like a pig in muck! I see her all the time and our bond is as strong as ever!

She has everything she needs, farrier, dentist, vet etc but I have massively reduced her livery costs and eliminated bedding/hay. Everybody tells me how well she looks and can't believe she's 20 the way she bunny hops around the fields.

I've had her nearly 16 years and I'm happy to pay the ~£120 a month she costs me to keep as she has more than earn't her retirement.

The second that she becomes uncomfortable I'll think about other options (I couldn't bare to ever let her suffer) but for now we're happy just sharing cuddles, grooming and general TLC.

I know I'm very lucky to have this option, both with the farm being available and having a horse that is happy to live out.

devonlass

2nd Sep 2009, 03:14 PM

Surely if your horse is retired then he will not need as much feed, supplements, insurance and could he go barefoot?

I don't really see this TBH.

Feed,well I don't know,but banjo is an older horse used to living in all winter,so is possible he might still need feed to maintain weight?? Might also need feed to put his supplements in,which he quite probably will still need as *think* they are for his joint problems,so see no reason why he wouldn't need them still??
Does insurance really change much just because he's retired?? Looking at my policy there's not much that would change just because not in work,would still need the basics plus liability and vets bills,so not sure it would reduce much:confused:
I am a huge fan of barefoot (all mine have been barefoot),so not knocking that suggestion,but not all horses can go barefoot,and as Banjo might need (or already have??) remedial shoeing,might not be an option at all.

All great ideas,and am not saying can't be done with some horses,but don't think would help or save much where OP's horse is concerned.

But lami can be managed, if he is retired to restricted grazing, then he should be fine.

Im just saying that I know plenty of horses that have had lami in the past and have been retired to grass. Its just a case of managing it correctly.

Am sure you are right and many can manage,but have to say having a pony currently who hasn't even had lammi but is the 'type' his management is quite stringent,and not something I'm sure could be managed by a grass livery yard,unless they were happy to do all the work it involves??

Fences need moving and checking every day,poo picking every day is essential on restricted grazing,hay given needs to either be the right type or soaked,restricted grazing area needs to either have shelter or horse will need to be brought in,unless have specially designed areas for restricted grazing,there might not be water troughs in correct place,so water might need doing every day.
The list goes on TBH,and these are just things I have had to think of having an overweight pony who is the right type!! Am guessing one who already has a history of lammi might have additional needs to this (stable with deep bed to get off the grass at first signs if lammi is one thing that springs to mind??).

Not saying many horses couldn't manage,but am guessing it might not be that easy to sort out if looking at a retirement livery yard,they might not all have the facilities to be able to offer this kind of management and level of work and supervision?? I know I have heard of many ordinary livery yards who don't offer these kind of services.

wibble

2nd Sep 2009, 04:39 PM

Pale Moon

Good Luck with the decisions you may face. I love this forum but equally sometimes I find it best to do what you think is right and then come and tell the forum purely as there are so many of us we are bound to be divided on opinions (which can be thoroughly useful and entertaining on some issues/topics).

I get where you are coming from with the 650 quid,I think too many people forget about supplemets, shoes, wormers etc. Its only because I have slight ocd that I can tell you to the penny what I spend on my 3.

I would grab a glass of wine, a good friend and all the vets reports and work out a plan of action that works for you and your horse.

whatever you decide come back here tell us and for all the posts that disagree put your fingers in your ears and sing la la la la laaaaaaa very loudly.

I will tell you would think to do if I was in your shoes but will not be offended if you ignore me:p

I had my 6 year old warmblood pts because he was in pain. He couldn't live out (he barely managed to stay out in the day he was such a wimp) shoes were costing 80 quid every 3-4 weeks. I couldn't bear to think of him in pain and he had too many years to go so I said goodbye, cried for days and let the vets do what they had advised.

I would love to think that I would keep mine if they couldn't be ridden but if they were in pain constantly or would stuggle through the winter I would consider putting the horse to sleep rather than pass the problem on.

You are not me and quite rightly you have not posted the whole situation on the internet. take care and chin up, horses they get yer heart every time:)

Pale Moon

2nd Sep 2009, 07:48 PM

Thanks again to everyone who has been supportive and also for all the PMs that I have received in the last few days.

At the end of the day, this thread was started as a "what if?" question - Banjo is lame, yes, and he also has ringbone, yes. However, it it very early days and not by any stretch the end of the world. As I have stated previously, I am prepared to do everything that I can and spend as much time and money that is needed to try and bring him right. If, after I have exhausted every possible possibility, then I will have to think again, but I do not intend to cross that particular bridge until I come to it.

One thing posting this thread has taught me, though, is that there others who judge you without having put themselves in your shoes first, which I find very sad. I am NOT a bad person, nor a bad horse owner, despite how some of you have tried to paint me.

Thanks again to my friends who have supported me wholeheartedly in what is, at the moment, a very stressful and worrying time in my life.

Lisa&Lady

2nd Sep 2009, 08:33 PM

Pale Moon

2nd Sep 2009, 08:49 PM

Im crossing fingers, toes, legs etc that he'll come sound.

Even Lady has her little leggys crossed

Thank you chick.

Will keep you informed.
x

Lisa&Lady

2nd Sep 2009, 08:52 PM

Thank you chick.

Will keep you informed.
x

Please do, either on here or a PM x

SO1

2nd Sep 2009, 09:00 PM

I do feel desperately sorry for your PM as it sounds like you do not have control of the situation. If you OH is not willing to let you spend family money on a horse that can't be ridden then it does not matter if your livery is £10 a week or a £100 a week. Sadly the only option you would have if he does not come sound is PTS - it does not make you a bad person just a victim of unfortunate circumstances. I don't think you could really loan him out as a companion as you might just find yourself back in the same situation again if the loan home want to return him.

I think it is hard to say what we would do if in your circumstances as your situation is quite unique.

I would also sit down and have a chat with your OH as this situation could affect your relationship if you want to spend the money keeping Banjo even if he can't be ridden and your OH thinks Banjo should be PTS.

Your vet should be able to advise you regarding quality of life and management for Banjo too.

Hopefully Banjo will return to ridden work again - would your OH still be willing to let you spend money on Banjo if Banjo could only be ridden in gentle walk with a small amount of trot and you were unable to get sharers?