heels down - toes up

[LittleD]

I have a real problem keeping my heels down and toes up - I start off ok, but then I find I'm so busy trying to remember all the other bits that half way round in trot or canter (just beginning to do this) my feet are right forward in the stirrups and I can feel the top of the iron against the top of my foot/ankle, apart from it not being very comfortable the fact that it's wrong makes me feel out of control - any tips of keeping heels down please

[cvb]

would it help to think a bit bigger ? Often the toes will go down (and heels up) when a rider starts to grip up and closes the angle at the knee (and hip).

If you close these joints up, it becomes much much harder to get the ankle angle right.

So start with hip and knee, and see if the toe/heel thing comes by itself.

Think of 'plugging' in your seat bones to the saddle like an electric plug to a socket. You have to have a connection, but its not rough at all.

Then 'think' your legs down and around the horse. Often images work - e.g. your legs are a wet dish cloth that is wrapping itself around the horse's side. Or imagine a week's grocery shopping is attached to the end of your leg and pulling you down. Another Sally Swift imagine is to imagine your legs have elongated and your feet are actually touching the floor - the foot should be level with the ground so that you do not plough the floor with toe or heel.

Any of that any help ?

[LittleD]

Thanks for your reply, I am riding this afternoon so I shall give it a go - maybe I do grip-up when I move into a faster pace, as I said I start off fine then when going into trot and recently canter I probably grip.

I haven't had 20 hours riding yet, so I guess this comes from novice nerves.

Something else I got from your reply tell me what you think!! It's about the leg position, my instructor tells me to turn my legs out - this position feels un-natural for me - but he tells me it's quite right, when I do this it feels as though I have almost the back of my calf on the horses sides - is this the bit I should feel?

Any tips are welcome - many thanks

[cvb]

I don't want to cause you problems with your instructor - but perhaps I can shed a little light ?

If you stand with your feet and knees and hips facing forward - and then try and imagine you are sitting on a horse - its really tough on your joints to wrap around a 'round' horse when they are all facing precisely fowards.

But at the same time we want to end up with your feet at roughly a 10 to 2 (clock) position.

So - the turn comes from the hips. You need to relax and 'open' the hip joint. This will allow your leg to come out and around the horse. To open the hop joint - you often do need to think of it being wide. But in fact you can do this without turning knee and toes to the side. i.e. wide without being sideways ! It can help to think of your knees sinking down and out around the horse. (Have you ever sat in one of the chairs that you kneel in ? Its that kind of feeling that your weight is going down through your knees).

It should all be soft and relaxed - when you do use your leg it is more about tone than sheer muscle. More about closing around the horse than gripping them like a limpet !

If you had clock hands on your knees pointing out, then they are also aiming for roughly 10 to 2. That should allow your feet to be facing forward (ish - not straight forward) but with your leg wrapped around the horse in close contact.

I hesitate about the calf contact - because a gripping leg with the heel up can bulge the calf muscle and thats NOT what you want. You do want a good contact with the horse so you can close around and nudge (not kick).

If you really had the back of your calf against the horse - personally I would think your toes will be too far out.

As I said, often people (riders and instructors) will focus on getting the toe position right - but its practically impossible without the hip being somewhere sensible to enable the movement at knee and ankle.

I wrote on another post about practising this off the horse. Its not a perfect simulation but it may help understand. Find somewhere quiet with no audience as you're going to look a bit weird ! You need somewhere where you can lie down with your feet against something - a wide bed would be ideal (comfy) but if not a floor and wall.

Lie on your back - this gives a rough approximaton of shoulder and hip alignment. Now you want your feet against a wall or bed end, with your knees bent. Take a wide position as if you are on a horse, with your feet against the wall then you have the right foot position. You can experiment with knee turn out and opening hips to your hearts content. Do be careful if you have previous back, knee etc injuries.

A straighter leg gives a 'dressage' position, more bend brings you towards a jumping position (without the fold).

Just play around a bit to find out what you need to do at hip and knee to get feet to 10 to 2. Is one hip tighter ? How wide a horse might be comfortable for you ?

(My mental image is of one of those birthing chairs with stirrups, but I think you lose the hip to heel alignment in those :eek: !).

Like I said - not a thing to do with people around to laugh at you !

[AmandaW]

Hi,

Really it should be the inside of your calf that lies against the horse, but your knees must be relaxed and not gripping (gone are the days when we were taught to pretend to keep a pound note secure between your knee and the saddle flap!). However, for this to happen you need to be able to 'open' your hips, and for your body to adapt to this stretching can take a little while!

You shouldn't jam your heels down, just think about having your weight running down through the legs to your heels and at the same time think tall through the front of your body (you may even feel you are leaning back a little at first). I find the taller I make myself the longer my legs become and as a consequence my heels drop. You will find that you won't loose, or get your foot through, the stirrup then.

Have fun!

PS the book Enlightened Equitation describes the above much better than I have, and is well worth a read.

[Dizzy]

cvb, if the feet are at 10 to 2, it puts the back of the lower leg in contact with horse and the knee directed off the saddle.

The feet should be parallel with the horse - toes foward. A good exercise to gain balance and drop the wieght into the heel, is stand up in your stirrups, in walk and trot. To begin with grab a lump of mane to help you, until you learn how to balance and absorb the movement. Then do it unaided.

Heels down is positively the worst, but most commonly used guide line for riding. Folk are taught/told to do it, because they are unbalanced and looking for security in the stirrup, and gripping with thier legs. This normally results in the rider desperatley reaching for the stirrup with thier toes down and heels up.

If you look at a well balanced rider, though thier wieght is falling through thier leg, thier feet are almost parallel to the ground. When the heel is forced down, the stirrup is the support, and there must be tension in the leg.

[cvb]

Dizzy.

Beg to differ. The pressure you will exert on the knee joint and hip by trying to achieve knee and foot parallel to side of horse is extreme and will add tensions throughout the leg.

The human knee is a hinge joint, so can not rotate. So you can only turn your knee forward from the hip. If you try and both rotate and open - well ballet dancers can do that, but not ride a horse at the same time ! If you rotate and open from hip, and then bend the knee joint - the result would NOT be a leg that was wrapped around and in contact with the horse. The lower leg would be off the horse. To wrap around the barrel of the horse'd body, you must be slightly off 'straight forward' - hence the 10 to 2 position.

A number of show jumping instructors will actually teach more turnout than this.

[Dizzy]

I do agree with your description of the human anatomy, but as you've said the secret is in the hips.

To ride correctly/effectively we should be standing astride the horse - not sitting on it. If the horse should magically disappear from under us, we should land on our feet in balance.

When we are riding, we need to have a secure seat /independant balance and the means to apply our weight/seat/upper leg and lower leg aids. To achieve this we need the inner side of our legs in contact with the horse, allowing us a free range of the leg aids.

We communicate the aids to the horse, by tensing and softening what ever muscle we want to influence them - but for them to feel it, it must be in contact with horse.

To get the correct inner leg contact, we must ask our hips to increase thier flexibility. I know this is a conflicting issue - my instructor uses exercises in the saddle to encourage flexibility/rotation in the hips. I have no problem with that - they are hard work, but I do reap the benefit.

I've read on NR that Heather doesn't advocate them - but Paul Belasik (one of my absolute heroes, and someone Heather holds in high esteem) does.

To get your foot facing forward, you must train your hip to open and have the inside of your thigh in contact with the horse, this aims your knee at the horse and drops your lower leg close to the horse, enabling the inner part of your calf to 'talk' to the horse.

I couldn't do this (out of interest, I tried today) with my feet at 10 to 2.

[cvb]

I don't have a problem with your description of being in balance. But you do not have to have your toes and knees forward to stand up !

I also agree with openng from the hips - but there is a physically limit - plus the knee joint has no rotation !

I'll have to try and see if I can draw what I mean somehow.

10 to 2 may vary a little for people with more or less suppleness, but it is a reasonable 'guide'.

[Fraggle]

If you are having a problem where the stirrup is slipping under your foot because you can't manage to keep your heels down........

I'd suggest that you buy a pair of Mountainhorse riding boots which have some sort of patented steel bar through the sole that positions your foot on the stirrup,helps point your toes in the right direction therefore pointing your heel slightly downwards.

I have a pair of the Mountainhorse hi-rider boots and they are excellant and really do help keep your foot secure in the stirrup.

I'm sure we all need to work on our riding positions but you might as well make use of advancements in modern technoolgy whilst you're practicing.LOL

:D

[Dizzy]

I'm a little confused with 'you do not have your toes and knees forward when you stand up'.

I take it that you mean either to post in trot, or do the exercise I suggested to help drop your wieght through the heel.

If you were to stand up in the stirrups with your feet at 10 to 2, unless you force your lower leg off the horse's side, the outer side of your leg, and your heel will be in constant contact. You rob yourself of having a neutral position - soft calf, no aid.

Horses need the neutral position to read our aids, they respond to pressure and wieght. If you are already, because of your position and balance, exerting pressure on them to balance yourself they will struggle to read and obey your requests.

Knees should not be forward, our security in the saddle is our thighs, we should have as much of our inner thigh in contact with the horse as possible. You've already quoted Sally Swift, she calls it riding with our stubby legs, in her diagrams there is no lower leg, its cut off at the knee, but the upper leg is aimed down. She also suggests exercises to open up our hips. Another of her teaching tactics is 'ride with with your bones' put your bones in the correct position and train your muscles and other bits to comply.

I'm afraid I disagree with it it being a reasonable guide - toes forwards is a reasonable guide.

[kyanya]

If it is any consolation, I had all this trouble at the beginning. I tended to grip up, and my feet would end up with my toes down.
For me, practice made perfect (or closer to perfect). As my seat and balance became better, which I feel can only be due to being more relaxed/less nervous, I would not grip up so much.
I don't think there is much you can do but develop better balance and become more confident on a horse. Don't worry, it will all come naturally.
Once your confidence has developed, you should be able to hold your legs in position in trot, even if canter is too much to expect.
I have come through it all, and am still alive. My toes used to be in the horses ears when I began cantering, but with practice I have developed a good seat, can sit well and keep my leg where it should be.
SO try, try and try again!

[cvb]

had some probelms posting a reply - hence the delay in time.

By "'you do not have your toes and knees forward when you stand up'" I meant standing up as in NOT ON A HORSE.

Just on your own two feet.

[Dizzy]

'You do not have to have your toes and knees forward to stand up' is very true. But to be fair we were discussing riding.

If you stand on the bottom step of your stairs with your feet approx a horses width apart, balancing on the ball of your foot, keeping your ear, shoulder, hip, heel in line - and softly bounce your wieght down through your heels, you'll find that unless your feet face forward your balance is very easily tipped forwards or backwards. When riding, many riders learn to counteract this imbalance by ramming thier heels down and bracing against the stirrups. And this does offer a secure'ish position, but leaves very little room for improvement, and makes learning to ride correctly more difficult - old habits are very hard to forget!

You mentioned that show jump instructors advise this, and I agree - but show jumpers when jumping do ride much shorter than folk hacking, and rely much more on weight aids for direction. If you watch them they very rarely have thier bum on the horse. They do ride longer when they school, and thier position changes.

Anyway, glad you've overcome your posting problems, its good to hear from you again.

Lesley

[intouch]

I'm with Dizzy (almost) I advocate not more than "5 to 1 " foot position. Anatomically it is not possible to "open the hips" the best we can do is to allow the seat muscles to relax, to feel as it your innards are relaxing down into the pelvic cavity.

Because the thigh bone is slightly curved, it is possible to RELAX the thigh around the horse, so the knee RELAXES into the saddle, and leaves the lower leg free to offer the horse aids. (Guess who's been having Alexander lessons!)

This is the only point where, as a less experienced teacher, I dare to not quite agree with Heather! While certainly not advocating GRIP, I feel that teaching a loose knee to a beginner encourages grip with the lower leg. A more advanced rider - or trainer! - can use it with discretion.

Jumping is a different ball game(?)

[Cochise]

Sorry OT here, but welcome back cvb, haven't seen you for ages, was worried that you had left us!

[cvb]

yup - I'm back in Scotland now, so I had a few problems with internet access. e.g. work computer was set up to reject cookies :-(

Thanks to the recent virus scares (IT not horse !!) they are now EVEN more twitchy than before.

Fi is back in Scotland too - charming my mother's fell pony and everyone else as well :D

[Tumbleweed]

It is nice to discuss things in a good manner, but what about Liz, she hasn't been riding long and this will be impossible for her to understand.

Liz,

This does come with experience but you can help yourself. When you are walking or standing, slip you feet out of the stirrups, let you legs stretch down and look were your legs are positioned, especially your knees. Lock the feeling of your legs stretched down, into your mind then put your feet back into your stirrups. You can do this at anytime in a lesson as long as you feel safe.

When you are riding, try and watch for when you start to grip with your knees and then take a couple of deep breaths and relax your legs, moving the knee off just a little. This will let your leg drop and also you heels.

Your heels shouldn't be forced down, a lot of people starting to ride the muscles at the back of the calf can't stretch enough for the heel to go down, especially someone who has done a lot of running. These muscles have to be lengthened gradually otherwise you will end up with pulled muscles.

[doris]

I used to have trouble with my toes/heels but invested in a pair of Equitector riding boots - best thing I ever did. I know it isn't a quick fix for correcting a riding position, but it does make life easier.

[flapjacks]

This is a slightly different approach to the problem of keeping heels down, but I read somewhere that one reason for having this problem is that the toes are tense. If they are, then the ankle cannot relax and bend correctly. This idea was demonstrated by stiffening your fingers and then trying to shake your arm so that your hand will shake and then do it again with the fingers relaxed. You will see that it is easier to bend at the wrist when your fingers are relaxed and this is the same with the ankles and toes. This makes a lot of sense, but i am still having trouble keeping my heels down. I know i grip with my legs but it's hard to remember everything at once!

[jUmPingIsLifE]

an exersize i was taught is you can take your feet out of the stirrups and place them on your heel, its hard to keep your stirrups even with your heels down but if you REALLY keep your heels down you can keep them like this, its a great exersize. i used to do it and whenever i lose the stirrup my instructer would yell "someone isn't keeping their heels down" and she would threaten to do things like taking the stirrups off the saddle completly for the rest of the lesson, or make me get off and run around the ring, or make me sing "i will keep my heels down" the whole lesson:p

[Drummers mum]

You all seem to make this sound very confusing. I found that my seat came from learning to ride with no stirrups, you shouldn't need them anyway, and once you have developed good riding muscles the whole thing becomes natural. If I have a few weeks off i go to pot!
I think that all the different advice can be confusing and where you put your legs varies. Look at any show jumper, lovely chair seat! but this is nothing like a dressage seat!

[entreat]

I wouldn't call a showjumper's position a 'chair position' - as that would leave them well behind the jump. A jumping position is more akin to squatting in the stirrups. I believe that a chair position will encourage you to be taken by surprise if the horse shoots forward, and leave you behind any movement (not just a jump). Try posting trot with your knees the far ahead - or try it getting up & down from a chair - you get tired pretty quick, and you can't keep a nice rythym for long. You deffiniately need to have your knees fluid & elastic, with your toes directly under them (try that on your chair, once your heels further back, you can 'post' longer)

On the other hand, a classical dressage position is not practical for much in everyday riding, but a basic dressage position is a good stable position (toes under knees, and hips under shoulders)

[Sammy_T]

does anyone know any exercises to improve balance and muscle lengthening that i can do when not in the saddle??

[Sammy_T]

does anyone know any exercises to improve balance and muscle lengthening that i can do when not in the saddle??

[Tumbleweed]

Stand with the ball of your foot on the bottom stair or a step, and bounce up and down. This should help make your ankles more flexible and help to stretch the muscles in your calf allowing your heels to slowly lower, and it will help your balance.

You can also, circle your feet both ways, this will also help make your ankles more flexible.