"all but perfect" new classes

[heartofrainbow]

Just started reading my horse and hound mag

Cricklands (David Broome event centre) in Wales are going to be including a variety of "all but perfect" showing classes, for horses that may have blemishes etc

Whats everyone's opinion?

[notpoodle]

this sounds lovely for those of us wanting to have go for fun :) mine is way too skinny for showing, but something like this sounds like it'd be less humiliating than a standard show where i have actuially been told to 'tell her to stop getting laminitis so she can eat more' :o

ps: would this be different from yuor usual 'blemishes dont count' class then?

[xloopylozzax]

honestly, i think its a daft idea- like doing jumping classes for horses that dont jump.

if your horse is blemished you stay at local level and hope they over look the blemishes because apart from that your horse goes well and your turned out right.

high level showing is separate because these horses are 'perfect' otherwise where do you draw the line...

[Kc..]

honestly, i think its a daft idea- like doing jumping classes for horses that dont jump.

if your horse is blemished you stay at local level and hope they over look the blemishes because apart from that your horse goes well and your turned out right.

high level showing is separate because these horses are 'perfect' otherwise where do you draw the line...

I don't agree, i think it's brilliant. Gives people with blemished horses (not all of use have perfect ones) the opportunity to compete at a good level.

Jumping and showing are completely different things, why would you not want to let people give their not quite perfect horses a chance?

As someone said you have a youngster perfect, produced for showing. he does something as a youngster that means he can't be shown to a very high level as he'll be marked down for this accidental blemish so he gets the chance to still have a go?

[heartofrainbow]

I don't know if they are different from "blemishes don't count" class!

I don't think these are aimed for top level showing, I guess this would be slightly larger than a local level show!? It just gives people the opportunity to have a go without feeling down about their horse having a blemish whatever size it is!

[Lot1983]

Yay, Henry is forever covered in cuts and scrapes!

[xloopylozzax]

its taking away the very thing that makes showing showing though.

cheapens the effort that everyone else makes IMO, plenty of youngsters "survive" being young without blemishes, if it doesnt then its tough luck and you try again with the next one.

another example is doing dressage on a horse that doesnt canter in a nice regular 3 beat rhythm, should it still be allowed to compete against a horse that does and can canter properly?

im not a fan, thank goodness the BSHA (i read the article this morning) arent going to do it.

its a local level thing, and thats how it should stay, the same horses will still be out and about contesting at that level whether they run a specific class or not.

[popularfurball]

Oh yeah, I agree not for high level - but local level its a brilliant idea!

Last time (and first time) we went to a show I was asked "Did you cut her tail like that? What kind of a tail is that?" in a snotty voice :( In actual fact, as I explained, she had no tail as she was neglected and rubbed her tail off. She also used to have a self maintained hogged mane when we got her - its just taking a while to get everything grown back and get sweet itch under control.

If that had been a kid doing it, I think there would have been tears involved. It was nasty and spiteful. Like I would cut a ponies tail off or something :(

[Yann]

honestly, i think its a daft idea- like doing jumping classes for horses that dont jump.

Not quite the same, the horse either jumps a fence of a given height or it doesn't, it's an objective test of the horse's capabilities. Showing is far more subjective. Why should any less effort go into preparing a horse with a scar somewhere?

I think it's a nice idea, but I can't see it catching on.

[Kc..]

Not quite the same, the horse either jumps a fence of a given height or it doesn't, it's an objective test of the horse's capabilities. Showing is far more subjective. Why should any less effort go into preparing a horse with a scar somewhere?

I think it's a nice idea, but I can't see it catching on.

That's kind of the point i was trying to make, i to think it's a good idea but no i don't think it'll catch on! Shame...

[rtk]

I'm not sure how much demand there would be for local classes for horses with blemishes. For less than perfect horses there would be, but what is the point of showing classes for those with confirmation faults, dishing and god knows what else.

I think more family type pony, happy hackers, horses that dont fit any catagory type classes would probably be the way to go.

Or listening to comments on here, classes where turnout is not an issue

[SmallHunter]

I don't think there is really a need for this class at local level either.
B's back legs have lots of little scars on them that she has had since we got her but it hasn't stopped her doing well and winning in the normal classes.

[heartofrainbow]

I think more family type pony, happy hackers, horses that dont fit any catagory type classes would probably be the way to go.

Actually rtk that sounds like a really good idea! Classes like that would give a variety of people a chance to have a go!

I can see what everyone is saying, that at local level slight blemishes aren't a major problem, and I would never expect this to become a HOYS class (I do live in the real world lol!).

In the article in H&H the woman that has proposed the class to Cricklands, said that she found a lack of opportunity to show her horse who has a scar on her hindleg after putting it thorugh a fence, so maybe its a problem in her area, that there are classes that do not accomodate her horse or that they do judge the horse warts and all so to speak.

[~*sugarlump*~]

I think it's a fab idea, my lad has a scar under his eye from a sarcoid but I'd love to have a go at showing him :)

[Yann]

I think more family type pony, happy hackers, horses that dont fit any catagory type classes would probably be the way to go.

Those types of class seem rather underepresented in the shows I've been to round here - TREC is where it's really at for the likes of me and mine :D

[Howengold]

honestly, i think its a daft idea- like doing jumping classes for horses that dont jump.




I'd enter Sov in that one and if there was a class for horses who won't jump...Mony would be a winner :D

[northern_rachel]

I think it's a good idea for horses who don't fit into a class.
Like happy hackers, artheritics, creaky cripples ect ect. A fun event where everyone has a good day out.
I don't agree with it being top level showing, but great for less competitive people :)

[Doeylicious]

Those types of class seem rather underepresented in the shows I've been to round here - TREC is where it's really at for the likes of me and mine :D

I'd love to do TREC, when I get my own horse it is at the very top of my list!

[s4sugar]

I think it's a good idea.
I've often seen an unblemished but mediocre horse placed above a far better but blemished animal.
It really irks me in hunter or breeding classes.

[xloopylozzax]

<edited>
artheritics, creaky cripples ect ect.
<edited>

these shouldnt be at any show IMO

[northern_rachel]

these shouldnt be at any show IMO

Why not can I ask?
I take Tara tack and turnout, she's artheritic in her hinds...infact, we do walk and trot tests.

[xloopylozzax]

its not fair on the horse.

same way as i dont like veteran classes for the same reason- if it isnt sound enough and 'well' enough to go in a normal class then it shouldnt be out competing.
dont get me wrong, some veterans dont look their age and they are still ok, but if you would only take it in a veteran class then i would have a rethink.

perhaps im old fashioned, but i think all horses have a sell by date and they deserve a rest or a change to more sedate things (or different things anyway)

[Howengold]

its not fair on the horse.

same way as i dont like veteran classes for the same reason- if it isnt sound enough and 'well' enough to go in a normal class then it shouldnt be out competing.
dont get me wrong, some veterans dont look their age and they are still ok, but if you would only take it in a veteran class then i would have a rethink.

perhaps im old fashioned, but i think all horses have a sell by date and they deserve a rest or a change to more sedate things (or different things anyway)

I do veteran classes for fun, Sovereign is just getting in to showing after a long break and Mon-ami is still sj and doing various classes every show. Mine certainly haven't reached their sell by date and they will probably get placed for many years to come.

What would you consider a "sell by date" 30 maybe? I won't say anymore but if you have read any of mine or a few others veteran posts then you will understand.......

As for these classes, why not give the people who can't afford the flashy 'perfect' horse or those who want to show for fun and don't care about the classes they do, a chance to compete at a level that suits them.....after all we aren't all that perfect either..:)

[xloopylozzax]

i wont bother discussing this any further tbh as it isnt going anywhere and wont affect me anyway. i hate discussing showing on here, i dont understand why it gets so much more bad press compared to any other discipline!

[northern_rachel]

I do veteran classes for fun, Sovereign is just getting in to showing after a long break and Mon-ami is still sj and doing various classes every show. Mine certainly haven't reached their sell by date and they will probably get placed for many years to come.

What would you consider a "sell by date" 30 maybe? I won't say anymore but if you have read any of mine or a few others veteran posts then you will understand.......

As for these classes, why not give the people who can't afford the flashy 'perfect' horse or those who want to show for fun and don't care about the classes they do, a chance to compete at a level that suits them.....after all we aren't all that perfect either..:)


Ditto.
I know the horses capabilities. If she's happy to tank off with me hacking then I'm more than sure she can do the odd show!
I also do different showing classes with Toby..so I know what will be asked of the horse.
I wouldn't ever write Tara off for showing :)

[SmallHunter]

I know exactly what LL means when it comes to veteran classes there was one class recently I saw which was appalling there were only TWO in a class of ten that were sound and in good condition some of them where lame just in walk and in any other class would have been asked to leave the ring.
Then there was a show recently which I attended the winner of the veteran class also one the best condition class and the riding horse class. That is how it should be the good veterans don't look out of place in the normal classes.
My little show pony came to us as a 12yr old at 22 she looked exactly the same and was still out showing and winning lead rein classes with my cousin as well as veteran classes. When she came back to us I was going to start showing her inhand until she sadly passed away.

[Howengold]

Ditto.
I know the horses capabilities. If she's happy to tank off with me hacking then I'm more than sure she can do the odd show!
I also do different showing classes with Toby..so I know what will be asked of the horse.
I wouldn't ever write Tara off for showing :)
:) Sovereign has far more get up and go than my 'perfect' young show ponies and I enjoy seeing the girls in the ring with her, we are even spreading our wings into dressage. I do have a retired pony who is way younger than them but even he does inhand veteran if I have time to prepare him x

They may be old but my three veterans certainly are finished yet!

[MrsCarter]

I really feel the need to post my two penneth on this thread!

As some of you know, Elouise has had a considerable amount of time off due to suspensory damage and arthritis!!!

My vet's advice ........... LOW LEVEL DRESSAGE and some showing to keep her happy and interested in life!!!!!!!!!!
I would never write her off whilst she is capable and while she may have a 'different' gait due to her problems .. so what?!? I feel very strongly that she should be given a chance to strut her stuff!

See you at the show! ;)

[SmallHunter]

Also not all of us have 'flashy perfect' horses thanks B cost nothing diddly squat yet she still manages to do just fine at showing. Its been alot of bloody hardy work to get her from a rearing, bucking, aggressive little mare into a good RC show horse and the amount of times my mum has been outside the ring and heard bitchy comments about me because I have beaten there 'beloved' pony is just getting tiresome put in the hard work and you get the reward simple as that.

*Dons Tin Hat*

[xloopylozzax]

Also not all of us have 'flashy perfect' horses thanks B cost nothing diddly squat yet she still manages to do just fine at showing. Its been alot of bloody hardy work to get her from a rearing, bucking, aggressive little mare into a good RC show horse and the amount of times my mum has been outside the ring and heard bitchy comments about me because I have beaten there 'beloved' pony is just getting tiresome put in the hard work and you get the reward simple as that.

*Dons Tin Hat*

i'll budge up room under the kitchen table for 2 :p

from replies on here in the past people genuinely dont realise the sheer amount of hard work that goes into show horses- they dont just look pretty, they are as highly schooled as a dressage horse, most jump, hack etc

running classes for horses that dont make the grade (for whatever reasons, especially if the blemishes allow splints/arthiritis/spavins etc) cheapens the effort everyone else has to make day in day out.

[northern_rachel]

i'll budge up room under the kitchen table for 2 :p

from replies on here in the past people genuinely dont realise the sheer amount of hard work that goes into show horses- they dont just look pretty, they are as highly schooled as a dressage horse, most jump, hack etc

running classes for horses that dont make the grade (for whatever reasons, especially if the blemishes allow splints/arthiritis/spavins etc) cheapens the effort everyone else has to make day in day out.
I do understand the sheer effort put into show horses. Been there done that.

I also believe in equality.

It's a fun show. Everyone is entitled to have their moment in the spotlight.

End of.

[SmallHunter]

But it isn't fun for me when I beat someone and I get to hear another competitors tirade of 'well why is THAT better than ours' or 'well what was the judge looking for then?'
Perfect example a few weeks ago I was pulled in fourth after the go round B did a foot perfect show and was the only one in the class to gallop so I got pulled up to second. I turned to congratulate the person in 3rd and the look on their face well if looks could kill I would have dropped stone dead right there. Mum also told me that people outside were moaning and making sarcy comments about the judge which she overheard.
That is not fun for me.

[northern_rachel]

But it isn't fun for me when I beat someone and I get to hear another competitors tirade of 'well why is THAT better than ours' or 'well what was the judge looking for then?'
Perfect example a few weeks ago I was pulled in fourth after the go round B did a foot perfect show and was the only one in the class to gallop so I got pulled up to second. I turned to congratulate the person in 3rd and the look on their face well if looks could kill I would have dropped stone dead right there. Mum also told me that people outside were moaning and making sarcy comments about the judge which she overheard.
That is not fun for me.

What class was it?
I don't understand, did you know the horses placed above you had medical problems/blemishes?
I've been placed below horses that havn't galloped and done what was in my eyes a perfect display, it doesn't bother me. Each judge has an eye for a different horse. It's rare me and Toby place in a hunter class because he's coloured, we do a fantastic performance.

A chap won the non-native at Bakewell and didn't gallop. There's a lot of unfair judging, but that is a different topic totally unrelated to this thread.

[SmallHunter]

I'm not complaining about the placing I was really pleased it was the ones who were dropped below me that were miffed.
My point is as I have said before on other threads often people just can't accept what showing is about finding the BEST horse in the ring it doesn't matter how much you love your horse or how wonderful you think it is that is what showing is about and all too often people will blame everyone else for their poor placing rather than taking a long hard look at themselves and saying 'What could I do better?'
I think these classes are silly really I could take B in them as like I said she has some small scars on her legs but would I then get moaned about with people saying 'well its only got a few little scars what's it doing in here' I think that is highly likely to be the case that eventually people will start saying well that isn't blemished enough.
Unless your horse has a serious conformational fault there is no reason why it will not do well at RC level which is all these classes will ever be anyway.

[Kit]

Thing is, the class still takes in conformation etc. just ignores physical scars, which I think is excellent, the attitude that if one gets injured you try again with another is shocking to me, and wasteful. If the horse is sound, has perfect confromation but scarred, I beleive the judge is actually supposed to overlook it in normal showing anyway(to a certain extent.).
It's not like non jumping fo rjumpers, as confo, manners et.c is still being judged

[rtk]

its not fair on the horse.

same way as i dont like veteran classes for the same reason- if it isnt sound enough and 'well' enough to go in a normal class then it shouldnt be out competing.
dont get me wrong, some veterans dont look their age and they are still ok, but if you would only take it in a veteran class then i would have a rethink.

perhaps im old fashioned, but i think all horses have a sell by date and they deserve a rest or a change to more sedate things (or different things anyway)

Its not often I disagree with you, but I do on the veterans.

My veteran didn't start showing till he was 29, too dammed mad. He loves his days out showing a couple of times a year and I am so proud of him when he actually behaves well enough to win. He is one of the ones that would never have fit into a class anyway so I definately would never take him in anything else (even at 33 he's not a family horse) For him showing is more sedate and different.

[Howengold]

I really feel the need to post my two penneth on this thread!

As some of you know, Elouise has had a considerable amount of time off due to suspensory damage and arthritis!!!

My vet's advice ........... LOW LEVEL DRESSAGE and some showing to keep her happy and interested in life!!!!!!!!!!
I would never write her off whilst she is capable and while she may have a 'different' gait due to her problems .. so what?!? I feel very strongly that she should be given a chance to strut her stuff!

See you at the show! ;)

Go you!!!:D

[Shansberry]

I think its great, because this is the exact reason why Im not a big fan of shows in the first place. i dont somebody to tell me that my horses colouring is incorec, or a blemish is improper, ect. My horse is perfect the way he is.

[SmallHunter]

I think its great, because this is the exact reason why Im not a big fan of shows in the first place. i dont somebody to tell me that my horses colouring is incorec, or a blemish is improper, ect. My horse is perfect the way he is.

But that is what showing is:confused:. It is about finding the horse that not only goes well for both it's rider and a ride judge but a horse that is as close to conformationally perfect as possible. I know exactly why my mare won't ever be county standard she has a short, high set neck and an upright shoulder which in trot can give her an uncomfortable action at times, I know this I accept this and we compete within our abilities and she does well.
To me she is my perfect horse, my horse of a lifetime but that doesn't mean she should go to HOYS.
It's not a competition about how perfect we think our horses are it's what the judge thinks.

[Shansberry]

Ya I guess that is what its about, and thats what i dont like about it.

[SmallHunter]

Then don't do it no one is forced to show.

[Keket]

For the record, as "showing" doesn't exist in this form over here, what is considered a blemish? Is it scars or conformation faults or both?

[Shansberry]

I dont... its just sad to judge something that cant be changed, in my opinion it should be about behaviour, and forward movmeent ect.

[SmallHunter]

A scar would be a blemish.
Conformation faults are just conformation faults.

[Keket]

Ah. In which case, I'll bow out of this thread before I do something stupid like write my opinion.

[SmallHunter]

Movement is taken into account as is conformation and the ride given to the judge as I have said numerous times if you are in a class and your horse is correct in everything else then you still stand a good chance BUT if it comes down to you and another horse which has no blemishes then the one without is going to beat you simple as that.
I also think splints and windgalls count as blemishes.

[SmallHunter]

Why does showing get all this flack I mean seriously?

[rtk]

I think its great, because this is the exact reason why Im not a big fan of shows in the first place. i dont somebody to tell me that my horses colouring is incorec, or a blemish is improper, ect. My horse is perfect the way he is.

Thats fine, but does that mean your also not a fan of showjumping, cross country etc because a horse is not good enough to do it. OK in those classes the jumps would tell you your horse was not suitable instead of a judge but same difference.

There are certain criteria for each showing class and if horses dont meet them then you cant expect to win.

But that does not mean horses with poor confirmation etc dont have a chance of doing things. Tack & turnout, family pony, handy pony, gymkhana, equitation classes etc are for non show horses.

I wouldn't change showing but I would add more of those sort of classes at local riding club level to encourage people with ordinary horses.

[Howengold]

Why does showing get all this flack I mean seriously?

Because people won't accept the judges decision is final, not everyone does it for the pleasure of competing. I quit professional showing 7 years ago now basically because it was getting too stressful to get things perfect and if a pony got a bleamish through 'being a pony' it basically wrote them off.

I am showing again now but at a local level with the very same ponies (two unblemished but living like kids ponies should), I was nagged into showing again and my girls are doing really well especially with my blemished veterans! I would never do the county showing circuit again or BSPS but if local shows could do more classes for the everyday show enthusiast I would probably allow my children to do more classes.

The trouble is even local level showing is a minefield these days and people just don't get it that loacl shows are supposed to be more fun and a good way to entice new people in to showing as a whole.

My daughter recently rode in a WH class on her SJ'er, they did it as a trial to see if she would like it. They came second in a class of four professional show hunters and a few RC regulars. We were made to feel awful by one professional competitor, but this has made my daughter decide to show her show jumper for WH classes as if he went that well on a spur of the moment decision what will he be like when we are prepared.

Showing should be fun enough to encourage more people in but sadly the people who do it all the time spoil it for future competitors when they say 'normal, everday' ponies and horses shouldn't be in the ring.

[eml]

I have said it before but repeating it as it is relevent. Showing is akin to a 'Miss World' competition, both need good conformation, good movement, manners and be blemish free.


I am sure these classes will be fun. We actually get a lot of fun taking our very cheap redundant TB racehorses (priced from £500-£1500) out in open competition and standing next to peoples £8000+ horses. However it doesn't worry us if we don't come home with a rosette as long as our horse performs to the best of its ability and the judging is fair. Generally the higher level the class the more fair the judging.

[xRobyn]

I'm not hot on showing or what is considered right or wrong, but I do believe that if the blemish does not affect the horse's way of going or conformation, then why not? Sure, if it is dishing then it is a conformational fault, but a scar is often from an accident that cannot be helped. Conformational faults come from when people don't know enough about breeding and chose the wrong horses, but if your horse gets kicked in the field, then it's hardly fair that you should be excluded from showing just because it has a scar, if it is perfect in every other way.

ust my thoughts. If the horse isn't capeable of being shown, then than is fair enough, but if the blemish has no effect then I see no issue in these classes. I wouldn't be able to show Phil at county level, for one because of his windgalls. They don't affect him in the slightest and are nothing more than soft lumps on his legs, but of course he doesn't appear perfect. If there were a class for horses with blemishes I would definitly enter him. Why should I have to hold back from showing just because my horse has a build up of fluid that produces an unsightly lump?

I do however understand that showing is, in an ideal world, for 'perfect' horses, but why can't there be opportunities for people who's horses aren't so perfect? (I would like to state though, if the horse is naughty/physically incapeable of performing a show then that is another kettle of fish).

[xloopylozzax]

xRobyn- windgalls are fairly serious though, its the body protecting the joint from stress- that stress can be from being over worked as a youngster or on not so good ground or from a conformational fault- how can the judge possibly distinguish between the two?

same as for splints...

ETA- Blackie has windgalls, dont cause her any problems, and we can compress them to get rid of them before we show, but other faults mean she will never reach a high level- i dont ask for specific classes for her i just accept it and try even harder with Hal

[rubysmum]

i have never considered showing Ruby as my understanding [maybe flawed] was that her blemishes & scars - all from her hunting days - would somewhat ironically not allow her to compete in some form of hunter class - i would love to show her in a "all but perfect" class at a local hobby level:)

[Lisa&Lady]

Maybe I could get away with showing Lady and her lumpy belly as we're obviously not good enough to compete other than at local level.

:mad: :)

[xRobyn]

I understand what you are saying, LL, but surely if the windgalls are that much cause for concearn, the horse wouldn't be able to compete, or would at least show some signs of lameness - if they were bad enough? If not, and dont seem to be effecting the horse then I don't see the problem. That is my opinion, I'm not trying to insult you or your opinions, simply stating mine.

(I have had the vet examin Phils wingalls and he stats that they are not conformational (Funnily they were due to him pacing as a youngster after being put in a bald field with one horse to loose weight - he lost the weight but now the windgalls flare up every summer due to the hard ground), but I can see why a judge wouldn't know how to tell)


RM: that is quite ironic, lol

[Xandoz]

We have something kind of like that here. We have SA riding, which judges solely on the horse's movement in walk, trot and canter. There's also best 3-gaited, best rider and best turn-out. But it's judged on the horse's overall cleanliness and movement, not whether it is conformationally perfect. My horse is sway-backed, scarred and is missing the tips of her ears, but we have always placed in SA riding (Best walk :) )

[Chrissie C]

May I explain that this Section is basically for equines with "honourable scars", caused through accidents, injury and operations. Conformation and Movement will be judged as per a "normal" class and faults will not be overlooked. The only criteria is that all exhibits MUST be 100 per cent SOUND.

[igloo]

I think its a lovely idea. I would love to have a go at showing but I know my boy would be marked down although he's in fantastic condition and beautifuuly muscled etc because of a huge scar on his leg he got as a yearling and various other scars because he's accident prone.

[Chrissie C]

I think it's a good idea for horses who don't fit into a class.
Like happy hackers, artheritics, creaky cripples ect ect. A fun event where everyone has a good day out.
I don't agree with it being top level showing, but great for less competitive people :)
Happy Hackers, yes - but never arthritics or cripples please. Unsound equines have no place in ANY show-ring, even at the lowest local level.

[Chrissie C]

I think it's a good idea.
I've often seen an unblemished but mediocre horse placed above a far better but blemished animal.
It really irks me in hunter or breeding classes.
I totally agree. As a Judge, I have often had to put a scarred (but totally sound) horse with far superior conformation and movement below non-blemished inferior ones. Simply due to the fact that "blemishes" have (until now) had no part whatsoever to play in showing classes. Do you think that the Showing Societies now ought to become involved in this discussion? It seems to be creating a serious amount of kerfuffle - both on this Forum and the one on Horse & Hound.

[Chrissie C]

i'll budge up room under the kitchen table for 2 :p

from replies on here in the past people genuinely dont realise the sheer amount of hard work that goes into show horses- they dont just look pretty, they are as highly schooled as a dressage horse, most jump, hack etc

running classes for horses that dont make the grade (for whatever reasons, especially if the blemishes allow splints/arthiritis/spavins etc) cheapens the effort everyone else has to make day in day out.

Not at all. Please read my other posts. This Section is for equines with "honourable scars" (and which must be 100 per cent sound) NOT with FAULTS such as splints, bog spavins, etc.

[horseygal90]

I think it sounds like a great idea, and hopefully (wishful thinking maybe) might give showing a better name than the one it has at the moment, which is all snobby and stuck up :o

[Chrissie C]

Why does showing get all this flack I mean seriously?
WHY? Very simple really. Some owners, because they have paid a serious amount of money for their (sometimes inferior) horses but themselves know absolutely diddley-squat about what showing entails - ie: conformation, movement and turn-out, then get the "green glint" when they are beaten. As you said in a previous post - nobody is forcing anyone to enter a show class. Also, in answer to someone else's comment - the MAJORITY of us Judges, actually judge what is in front of us standing on 4 legs rather than who is sitting in the saddle or on the end of an In-Hand Bridle Rein.
I always judge what is in front of me, on the day, in that particular class.
I stress "that particular class" because something which might have behaved like a teenage thug in a previous class but then behaved beautifully in another later one, WOULD get put up by me. However, that is just my opinion. This season, I have actually, not once had to resort to a bullet-proof vest and a helicopter!!

[Melting Moments]

its great

[Howengold]

WHY? Very simple really. Some owners, because they have paid a serious amount of money for their (sometimes inferior) horses but themselves know absolutely diddley-squat about what showing entails - ie: conformation, movement and turn-out, then get the "green glint" when they are beaten. As you said in a previous post - nobody is forcing anyone to enter a show class. Also, in answer to someone else's comment - the MAJORITY of us Judges, actually judge what is in front of us standing on 4 legs rather than who is sitting in the saddle or on the end of an In-Hand Bridle Rein.
I always judge what is in front of me, on the day, in that particular class.
I stress "that particular class" because something which might have behaved like a teenage thug in a previous class but then behaved beautifully in another later one, WOULD get put up by me. However, that is just my opinion. This season, I have actually, not once had to resort to a bullet-proof vest and a helicopter!!


I am glad there is a judge on here, its about time you had a voice too xx

[puzzles]

Why should a horse that is perfect in other way be penalised for a scar or minor blemish? Having a scar often has no effect on the horse's behaviour, helth, performance or overall 'quality' otherwise; it's sheer vanity. Labelling a horse with superb conformation, behaviour and performance as "dumbing down" showing is utter rubbish! Why should they not be given a chance? Noone asks to be scarred or blemished, particularly if it is from birth or an accident. In my eyse, for an animal to have suffered to some degree to gain the blemish in the first place, and then go up the ranks of the showing world, makes it even more 'quality' than an unblemished horse. Horses competing in much more difficult disciplines such as dressage, eventing & show jumping are not penalised for their appearance in this respect, so why should showing be any different? I think it is utterly scandalous that any horse should be penalised or degraded in any way for having a minor blemish.

x

[Chrissie C]

I am glad there is a judge on here, its about time you had a voice too xx
Thank you. None of us Judges are "the Oracle" but we do our best. The results are, after all, down to the appointed Judge. Over the years, I have been accosted in the ring, outside the ring, been telephoned at home on many occasions and even had one irate (but totally clueless) Pony Club mother appear on my doorstep the next day. Just remember - there are ALWAYS far more Judges OUTSIDE the ring than there are INSIDE it!! Why do we Judges keep on doing it? Simply due to the fact that there are some absolutely beautiful 4-legged people out there and some utterly charming and polite exhibitors.

[xloopylozzax]

chrissie c, what juding panels are you on? what classes do you judge?

[Chrissie C]

i wont bother discussing this any further tbh as it isnt going anywhere and wont affect me anyway. i hate discussing showing on here, i dont understand why it gets so much more bad press compared to any other discipline!
Re: the first sentence of this post.
You also say "..... and won't affect me anyway ....."
So why have you posted a further three comments?
In reply to your last post, I have done 13 days' judging this season, including a County Show, with another 3 to do this month. Perhaps you could find the courage to come out from behind your non-de-plume and state your proper name, your judging qualifications and where you have judged this season. If you have no judging qualificatons, then why not apply to a Panel? If you pass the assessment, you can then make your views known - in the ring with a Judge's Badge on your jacket.

[xloopylozzax]

<edited>

In reply to your last post, I have done 13 days' judging this season, including a County Show, with another 3 to do this month. Perhaps you could find the courage to come out from behind your non-de-plume and state your proper name, your judging qualifications and where you have judged this season. If you have no judging qualificatons, then why not apply to a Panel? If you pass the assessment, you can then make your views known - in the ring with a Judge's Badge on your jacket.


kindly answer the questions i asked, rather than bouncing them back ;)

fwiw, Im 17 so still too young to go on judging panels, i have however grown up around high level judges (close friends), and also spectated many thousand classes over the years, listening to what my father said (he also judged, but not at high level simply because he didnt have the time to dedicate to it) and other judges outside of the ring, and following the judges decisions- catching up with them after the shows to talk to them about it or to clarify any reasons, so i can learn what to spot in a winner.
currently i specialise in welsh cobs (C's and D's, im not so good at the A's and B's because i simply arent as interested in them, i can still see a good one though) but i am growing to understand what they look for in hunters (both under saddle, and breeding) and also in sport horses (specifically hanoverians, but its quite easy to apply to all warmbloods as im sure you know)

I love that side of it, judging conformation and way of going and everything to do with showing, spotting a winner. exhilerating to say the least.

[pedilia]

i'll budge up room under the kitchen table for 2 :p

from replies on here in the past people genuinely dont realise the sheer amount of hard work that goes into show horses- they dont just look pretty, they are as highly schooled as a dressage horse, most jump, hack etc


I think people do understand the work that goes into to producing a top class show horse BUT there are plenty that are not well schooled, certainly nothing like a dressage horse!
I have seen many that are being held in a false outline with nothing going on behind, even more so with smaller ponies. If this was not the case then tying-in would no longer exsist:rolleyes:

[julia gulia]

perhaps im old fashioned, but i think all horses have a sell by date and they deserve a rest or a change to more sedate things (or different things anyway)

Our horses probably feel the same way about us and quite rightly so in some cases :D

[xloopylozzax]

chrissie C, i have been informed that you infact judged the UNAFFILIATED classes at a county show and at cricklands...

hmmm, so you arent on any judging panels then...

[Fanshawe]

LL your rudeness and arrogance are astounding! Maybe one day when you have been the judge in any classes at all (heaven help the competitors) you will learn some manners and humility. Chrissie C's level of judging is not in debate here and has no relevance to the topic. Unfortunately for you, because of your attitude and lack of manners your opinions are losing credence by the second. Additionally you might like to remember that the showing world is very small and I wonder how your rudeness will affect your showing/judging career:rolleyes:

I make no claims of being at all knowledgable about the top end of showing (though I have a very good friend who used to compete nationally) but I for one will welcome the 'all but perfect' class just like I like the 'veteran' class. I know that my stunning (pink papered from top level warmblood (Hannovarian is about 50%) bloodlines as you're interested in warmbloods;)) mare will not compete against perfect and younger horses so I don't enter that classes because I value the judges time.

However, in 'abp' her windgall (not conformational) and scar would not be factored in and her high level schooling (without any form of hyperflexion/draw reins etc), stunning paces and expression in her movement will be what the judge sees. I would love to do this class no matter where we were placed because in these sorts of classes, simply enjoying entering and the day out is much more important. I shall leave the high level showing to you LL;)

[Iron Maiden]

plenty of youngsters "survive" being young without blemishes, if it doesnt then its tough luck and you try again with the next one.

Not all of us like to just chew em up & spit em out like that. Some of us like to give our horses a home for life and don't have the means to collect a string just so one of them might be 'perfect'. Your later post emphasises how much work goes into producing these horses - then a chance occurrence like a kick or field accident can blow it all. You also posted a thread before about the accident you had & how Hal doesn't hack out safely and is only suited to showing. What if he ends up blemished because of this accident? I would have thought that you would welcome the opportunity to show off the fruits of your labour in a class such as the one discussed. If you don't, fair enough - that's up to you, but there might be others that would love to have a go. Live and let live - they aren't going to beat you in 'proper' classes after all.

[SmallHunter]

I still can not see the point of these classes. They will never be national level classes because they defeat the entire point of showing which is to find the 'perfect' horse.
At local and RC level Scars DO NOT prevent you from doing well if everything else is correct.
As I have mentioned time and again my own mare has quite a few scars on her legs these have not stopped her from qualifying for Equifest, Chiltern and Thames Champs, Amateur showing society, royal london, trailblazers, P(uk) and if we had been members BSPS.
She WON her inhand class at Equifest against a stallion with no blemishes.
One of the 'all but perfect' classes being put on is Best Turned Out this class has never been about conformation or blemishes anyway so what is the point of it?
Different judges will place value on different things some will forgive a wrong leg if quickly corrected others won't it is the same with scars some won't mind and others will but that's what showing is someones opinion on the day.

[Roseanne]

Yay! Bring it on, but in the South East as well please! My mare is a beautiful girl (well to my biased eyes anyway) but wouldn't walk away with any prizes if blemishes and less than perfect conformation are anathema in the rarefied world of showing :(

I would love to "show" her, just for the experience, as I can't compete her, and I'm sure she would just love to be a part of something new and interesting.

Must get hold of the mag for more information!

Roseanne

[Lemme]

We have a couple of local shows around here that have a "Best of the Rest" class and is for those that have lumps,bumps,conformation faults and blemishes (must be sound), it was well supported and gave Riders/handlers and equines a fun day out which they more than likely would not have had..
better still, if your equine didn't fit in the criteria then you couldn't enter... no easy rosette there then!! wonderful idea IMO.

[Lisa&Lady]

Why should a horse that is perfect in other way be penalised for a scar or minor blemish? Having a scar often has no effect on the horse's behaviour, helth, performance or overall 'quality' otherwise; it's sheer vanity. Labelling a horse with superb conformation, behaviour and performance as "dumbing down" showing is utter rubbish! Why should they not be given a chance? Noone asks to be scarred or blemished, particularly if it is from birth or an accident. In my eyse, for an animal to have suffered to some degree to gain the blemish in the first place, and then go up the ranks of the showing world, makes it even more 'quality' than an unblemished horse. Horses competing in much more difficult disciplines such as dressage, eventing & show jumping are not penalised for their appearance in this respect, so why should showing be any different? I think it is utterly scandalous that any horse should be penalised or degraded in any way for having a minor blemish.

x

Ditto this Puzzles.

Im actually finding it very hard to comment on some stupid posts someone made earlier.

:mad:

[Lisa&Lady]

Re: the first sentence of this post.
You also say "..... and won't affect me anyway ....."
So why have you posted a further three comments?
In reply to your last post, I have done 13 days' judging this season, including a County Show, with another 3 to do this month. Perhaps you could find the courage to come out from behind your non-de-plume and state your proper name, your judging qualifications and where you have judged this season. If you have no judging qualificatons, then why not apply to a Panel? If you pass the assessment, you can then make your views known - in the ring with a Judge's Badge on your jacket.

Go Chrissie, Go Chrissie

:p

[Lisa&Lady]

chrissie C, i have been informed that you infact judged the UNAFFILIATED classes at a county show and at cricklands...

hmmm, so you arent on any judging panels then...

So what, she's a judge, your not, and what a rude little girl you are!!!.

Get some manners towards your elders before critiscising someone who is has more experience at this than you.

:mad:

[Kit]

To clarify-conformation is not the issue here and rightly so-the belmishes are the issue that they are overlooking.

[Elly Koopman]

Doesn't matter what level you're at you're still only as good as the judge that judges you. Me & Rosie have placed in the top 3 in a ridden hunter class, and then come away with nothing in a veteran class :rolleyes:

This weekend we placed in an in-hand class under one judge, with the first place horse going on to take the Veteran of Britain title and 2nd place going on to win places in other classes. The next day under a different judge we got nowhere as we weren't as strong as others in that particular judges eyes. Yes, I think that the pony that refused to canter on the right lead and carried on cantering round 'cos the girl couldn't slow down possibly shouldn't have placed as high as she did, but the judge liked the pairing so placed accordingly :o

You win some you lose some - I know now to look out for the that judges name and I'll think carefully about showing under him again :D

Classes for horses that don't fit into any particular class would be good, but at local level they are pretty lenient anyway and might accept over/underheight gee-gees or move the goalposts so that a greater range of people can enter (more money earned then :D).

Rosie is too old to take the showing world by storm now, and in fairness while we did okay in hunters years ago she isn't a show-horse (being a chestnut she's the wrong colour for a start :D) but I won't stop pottering out to shows andat least trying. Apart from anything else, how else am I going to learn what to look for and what to do so that if by some chance I manage to find and get the perfect horse ;):p

Bubba boy might do okay, but has prominent scars on his face and legs so am going to tailor his class entries to things that don't focus purely on aesthetics and I'm not expecting to be going to P(UK) or HOYS with him so I'm not going to get hung up on trying to cover up everything :rolleyes:

[joey_olop]

Doesn't matter what level you're at you're still only as good as the judge that judges you.

I totally agree with you.
I think these will be good fun classes for people to enter-my boy has lots of little bumps & nicks on him that have prevented us from doing showing & I think they would be a good opportunity to go out & do something different :)

[Howengold]

Ditto this Puzzles.

Im actually finding it very hard to comment on some stupid posts someone made earlier.

:mad:


I agree.

[Howengold]

I totally agree with you.
I think these will be good fun classes for people to enter-my boy has lots of little bumps & nicks on him that have prevented us from doing showing & I think they would be a good opportunity to go out & do something different :)


I agree with this too!

Its meant to be fun, if you do it for a living or to get to the top its your choice but there are people out there who want to do it for fun and thats whats these classes are all about and my old knackers will happily be doing them along with what ever other classes my children decide to do. We aren't in it to win we are in it to have a laugh and enjoy our 'pet ponies' like most leisure riders and happy hackers!

[Sunshine-x]

I think that a class where blemishes dont matter such as scars or maybe a slightly rubbed mane from sweet itch would be nice, but i think that if a horse doesn't have good confomation, movement and manners then they should not be showing as it is not the correct discipline for them. I know in workers classes some slight blemishes can be overlooked as from hunting accidents, but what I think is ridiculous is that my grey that i took in a whp on advice from one of our huntmasters, was not placed becuase he was grey!!! The judge said lovely horse shame its grey!!! :mad::eek::mad::mad: I was not impressed he did a beautiful show jumped nicely etc and some scraggy little shetland thing with half a mane got placed ahead of me!!! :mad:

[SO1]

I think the classes are excellent idea. There are some very kind people out there who take on rescue horses from santuaries - some of these horses have had a bit of a hard time before being taken on and might have some blemishes or be prone to lami.

They may have lovely conformation but can't be feed up to be in show condition due to lami or may have marks from being beaten or mistreated. These sort of classes might encourage people to perhaps take on horses that are less than perfect and not discard a show horse just because it has an accident.

These classes are not designed for unhealthy horses but those who may due to no fault of their own have had an accident or been mistreated in the past.

Having these classes at larger shows also exposes the general public to the fact that a good horse does not stop being a good horse just because it might have been mistreated in the past or had an unfortunate accident. It also might provide some publicity for the good work some of the rescue charities do as often their horses have their name as a prefix.

[showbusiness]

I've not read al the replies, mainly because there is one poster who thinks they know everything and that annoys me :rolleyes:

When I first read about this, I dismissed it as a stupid idea. But the more Ive thought about it, the more I realise that it is a good idea - but at local level only (and that is where I'm confident it'll stay). If this class gives more people a chance to get involved with showing, learn about what is involved in a show class etc, then that is a good thing. Showing is supposed to be FUN, and by putting on a range of classes at local shows for everybody to have a go at then it is making it fun for all those people who think they don't have a chance in the 'proper' showing classes.

I'm afraid at anything past local level, horses with blemishes will not do well in the show ring - that is showing. If I went into a beauty pagaent with a massive scar on my face, I would not expect to win; people can throw their arms up at that and say "That's awful, what discrimination!" but perfection is what beauty pagaents are all about - you have to accept that when you enter, and if you have an obvious defect then it's not for you. I might excel at other things, but just not in a competition where you have to be as near perfect as possible. That is the tradition, and how it should be in the show ring. The people who hate this and think that showing is wrong for that reason should just stick to other things rather than moan about the people who do show, and for that reason need a horse with no blemishes.

I show and judge at a high level, and if a horse with a scar came into a class I was judging at county level or above, it would get put down for it. However, if I was judging at local level and that horse had better conformation, and went better than everything else, then I would consider not moving it down the line for it. It all depends on the individual situation, but at a local, fun level, I am all up for opening showing up to as many people as possible. Maybe then people would understand it more, learn to appreciate it for the display of good traning and breeding it is, and maybe not all get up and leave at HOYS when the showing championships come on in the main ring in the evening....

[heartofrainbow]

Well said showbusiness! x

[scottishterrier]

everyone is entitled to their opinion but to be rude to others who disagree(and are far more qualified) is terrible x

[Peaches]

Difficult one: I have to say personally I'm not keen on it, because I don't see the point. I can't imagine it would catch on at higher level, but then there are already local classes such as mentioned by other members, which aren't likely to have you put down for scars... (yes I show to a high level with our ponies, or did till very recently, but my primary ridden horse is far from a show animal, and would probably be one of those for the abp classes due to many a scar - so I'm not commenting from a POV of only having 'perfect ponies' ).

I think part of the difficulty in running these sorts of classes is that a blemish detracts from the eye: so even within the classes some blemishes will be worse than others (say a horse with a colic operation scar perhaps who is now fully healthy and so eligable, compared to something with a small kick scar). The horses with larger scars and blemishes will not make the 'picture' than a lesser blemished horse would, and so if they are similar quality what does the judge do? Normally, the better 'picture' (when conformation and movement, manners etc are equal) would take the ribbons, but when the picture is only spoiled by blemishes, but must be discounted...well I wouldn't like to be the judge (not that I ever would be!). I know it could be compared with having 2 unblemished horses tying in a normal class, but one is likely to appeal to the judge more, without having blemishes to push that one way or another.

Also, unless the scar is truley horrific, a judge *can* choose to overlook it, if they feel the horse is otherwise superior. It might not be common, as judges come under a lot of flack from other competitors, onlookers, and even other judges, but they aren't under any obligation of written rules (I could be wrong though - sorry if so and feel free to correct me) to penalise for blemishes. We had until recently a broodmare, who as a youngster had had somebody take a stanley knife to her hind leg, right down the inside (lord knows what possessed a stranger to do this, but it happened :eek:). We didn't show her for years expecting to be a waste of time due to her scars. One year we took her showing regardless, in order to get an outstanding foal in the showring. She swept the board, taking many county championships and supremes across the country, and did so for a few years. Her leg was scared (a black scar with stitching pin marks too, and she was palomino), but under majority of judges, this was ignored...
My point is, if it can be overlooked anyway when your horse/pony is good enough, then where is the benefit of these classes? BUT I do think they could be great fun for people with horses that have scars judges aren't willing to overlook. However to me that is what they should stay as: fun classes :o

Everybody is of course entitled to their opinion, and I'm not disputing some people will have great fun with the classes. But my personal opinion is that they aren't really needed. But who am I to stop the fun? If it's your sort of thing, then so be it, enjoy it :)

[Palomino Mare]

i totally get the point - your horse is good enough in ALL aspects to be a show horse yet unfortunatley had an accident at some point in its life and it has a scar. This scar means that you wont be as successful in showing as your horse deserves - as it does have all the other quantities. So these classes give these horses a chance to show what theyre made of?

If my understanding is correct then i think its a great idea!

[Tiredtessa]

I couldn’t agree more heartedly with Showbusiness! I judge County, National and Internationally and must say I am absolutely appalled by the comments that have been made by 1 particular person on this subject. This person is neither competent enough nor qualified to be making such comments and certainly has manners that are at the least questionable!!

A judge is a judge regardless of whether they oversee affiliated classes or non affiliated and as such should be afforded respect!

Of course these classes should be held, they are FUN classes for people to have FUN!!

I have sent the link over to judges in the Veteran Horse Association who I am sure will look at interest the comments that have been made about their classes; as will Rehabilitation of Racehorses (ROR who are overseen by Wetherby’s ) as many of the horse’s handled by them are indeed rescue animals and would qualify for rescue classes.

The showing world is indeed an exceptionally small one – the person you are ‘talking’ with could behind the ‘non de plume’ indeed be the person who is judging you in the near future and recognises both horse and rider from the pictures you post on here!!

[JustJas]

It sounds a good idea to me.

I would really not envy the judge as the horses entered will be so diverse.

[SO1]

Whilst I think the blemishes don't count classes are a lovely idea what I think would be even nicer would be a "rescued horse or pony class" at some of the big shows.

A big show would be an excellent place to high light horse welfare and maybe a class like this would be a chance to reward those kind people who take on rescue horses with the status of doing well at a county show with lots of spectators brings. These shows normally have catalogues and all who enter have their names in them and it would show off the rescue horses.

Small shows do not have the kudos of the large shows and you would not get the same publicity. Who knows might even encourage some of those who spend ££££££ on top show horses and showing to take on a rescue horse.

The veteran horse society have a class at Olympia why not the rescue horses.

I also think that showing has had a bad reputation because competitors can sometimes come accross as snooty and exclusive and the attitude of competitors at top levels sometimes filters through to the local levels as people think that is the way to behave.

[Kc..]

its not fair on the horse.

same way as i dont like veteran classes for the same reason- if it isnt sound enough and 'well' enough to go in a normal class then it shouldnt be out competing.
dont get me wrong, some veterans dont look their age and they are still ok, but if you would only take it in a veteran class then i would have a rethink.

perhaps im old fashioned, but i think all horses have a sell by date and they deserve a rest or a change to more sedate things (or different things anyway)

I've tried not to comment on this post again but i'm going to have to.

It seems to me you have no clue about the older horse. Nimby is 24, has a slightly arthritic shoulder but is managed by different supplements and magnetic boots.

So therefore in yours eyes i shouldn't even be riding him? Because if he can't do a simple dressage test or walk/trot/canter round a field then he can't do anything really can he?

By all means come and have a sit on him, you tell him he should be turned into a field ornament.

http://newrider.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=44&pictureid=29770

I am disgusted with the way you can talk to some people, i was 18 in august so not much older than you and i would never ever dream of talking to an elder more experienced person that way - or indeed anybody.

I'm not from a wealthy background, my horses are for fun neither are perfect (Nim is covered in scars!) but at the very few shows we go to it would be nice to be judged alongside horses that have had an easier life than my two. Sure mark down for confirmational faults - that's what it's about however there is no reason a bit of white hair or any other blemis h like it should effect the placing.

[shanzee]

Whilst I think the blemishes don't count classes are a lovely idea what I think would be even nicer would be a "rescued horse or pony class" at some of the big shows.

A big show would be an excellent place to high light horse welfare and maybe a class like this would be a chance to reward those kind people who take on rescue horses with the status of doing well at a county show with lots of spectators brings. These shows normally have catalogues and all who enter have their names in them and it would show off the rescue horses.

Small shows do not have the kudos of the large shows and you would not get the same publicity. Who knows might even encourage some of those who spend ££££££ on top show horses and showing to take on a rescue horse.

The veteran horse society have a class at Olympia why not the rescue horses.



I agree - I have come across a lot of people that think because a horse is a rescue it is no good - I hope Tia and Charlie have gone some way to proving them wrong so far. :)

The Festival of Champions has been held rescue classes at its Spring and Summer Shows, but unfortunately they weren't well attended - maybe because people didn't know about it. They also have a championship for ridden and in hand rescue horses at their Winter Festival Show in October. If you have a rescue horse and are a member of a riding club affiliated to the Festival, you qualify for the final as long as you are the rescue horse with the most points at your club. It would be grerat to see more in the class - if they don't get entries, they may not carry on holding the class in future.

As far as the 'All But Perfect' classes go, why not if it gets more people interested in showing?

[SO1]

I imagine a way to publisize these classes would be for the rescue charities to have links to them on their website. I imagine most people who have rescue horses would think they would be excluded from something grand sounding like the The Festival of Champions - incidently I have never heard of the festival of champions and I am a RC member have never even heard of the festival of champions so perhaps that is why these classes are not well attended.

The Festival of Champions has been held rescue classes at its Spring and Summer Shows, but unfortunately they weren't well attended - maybe because people didn't know about it. ?

[xloopylozzax]

Not all of us like to just chew em up & spit em out like that. Some of us like to give our horses a home for life and don't have the means to collect a string just so one of them might be 'perfect'. Your later post emphasises how much work goes into producing these horses - then a chance occurrence like a kick or field accident can blow it all. You also posted a thread before about the accident you had & how Hal doesn't hack out safely and is only suited to showing. What if he ends up blemished because of this accident? I would have thought that you would welcome the opportunity to show off the fruits of your labour in a class such as the one discussed. If you don't, fair enough - that's up to you, but there might be others that would love to have a go. Live and let live - they aren't going to beat you in 'proper' classes after all.

If Hal is blemished, then its tough- i accept that and he will be retired from showing if he is, i wont drag him around the local circuit or enter him for "imperfect" classes. i value him far more than that.

[pedilia]

If Hal is blemished, then its tough- i accept that and he will be retired from showing if he is, i wont drag him around the local circuit or enter him for "imperfect" classes. i value him far more than that.

What is valuing him more than that mean?? So those that show with non perfect horses don't value their horses:confused: What a load of c**p:mad:

I am assuming you went straight in at county level then, cos you are obviously way above the mere mortals that show at a local level:rolleyes:

You do come across in some of your posts as arrogant and patronising, I find it very hard to believe at the age of 17 you are the expert you seem to think you are. Whilst I'm sure you have experience and knowledge, there are people on thsi board that have been around and riding horses (me included) when you just a mere twinkle;)

[Sunshine-x]

What do people think though whilst we are on the merits of showing about my earlier post - not getting placed in WHP coz my pony was grey?

[SmallHunter]

Ridiculous clearly a judge who didn't know what they were talking about. The colour of the horse should not be taken into account.
If greys are so terrible I'm in big trouble I've got 4:rolleyes::D

[Peaches]

What do people think though whilst we are on the merits of showing about my earlier post - not getting placed in WHP coz my pony was grey?

Don't think I spotted earlier post - can you point me in right direction please? :)

Sounds very very odd to me...:confused::confused:

[Sunshine-x]

I think that a class where blemishes dont matter such as scars or maybe a slightly rubbed mane from sweet itch would be nice, but i think that if a horse doesn't have good confomation, movement and manners then they should not be showing as it is not the correct discipline for them. I know in workers classes some slight blemishes can be overlooked as from hunting accidents, but what I think is ridiculous is that my grey that i took in a whp on advice from one of our huntmasters, was not placed becuase he was grey!!! The judge said lovely horse shame its grey!!! :mad::eek::mad::mad: I was not impressed he did a beautiful show jumped nicely etc and some scraggy little shetland thing with half a mane got placed ahead of me!!! :mad:

PEACHES - this was my earlier post.

[Sunshine-x]

And this is my lad I entered in the WHP.

http://i564.photobucket.com/albums/ss83/feistypony/PF%20summer%20show/DSC_0376.jpg

[Peaches]

He looks nice :)

All I can presume from the judge is that he didn't mean that was WHY you were placed down and that for conformation or movement or style of jumping etc he preferred the other horse on the day, and that he was trying to make a light hearted comment re his colouring? I have to say, whilst a nice grey can be quite eye catching, they are a bloody nightmare to show as it's compulsory to be so immaculate :D

If it was genuinely the reason for being put down....then bollocks to the judge I'm afraid as whilst I do respect the judge's decision as final, this just sounds plain weird!!!

[pedilia]

What do people think though whilst we are on the merits of showing about my earlier post - not getting placed in WHP coz my pony was grey?


I think that is disgraceful!!

[northern_rachel]

And this is why I don't particularly like getting too involved with the "showing clique"

Certain peoples posts sound condemming. Relate this to the special Olympics. Do you condem people that are different yet perfectly capable?

[JustJas]

I remember why I gave up showing... the attitude of some of the showing fraternity who can forget most people have a horse to have fun.

The prize is more than the fun of showing.

I was at a show this year just to watch and enjoy but was shocked by the woman whose grandchild won the in-hand championship. She was so rude and bolshy- yelling go "name of pony" as all the championship class left the ring. The girl came out delighted but her smiles of triupmh turned quickly to tears when told forcibly she would be riding that pony next year when she wanted to ride the pony she was happy riding.

[Sunshine-x]

Peaches i can honestly say he has excellent paces and very good conformation, and he jumped a very nice round too. A lot of people watching thought the placing was very strange. All I can think of is that it was an unaff show at a very cliquey place.

[SmallHunter]

Sunshine don't worry about it. It happens to everyone at some point, B was entered in a coloured and odd coloured class (includes appaloosas) we were pulled in 3rd out of 5 and the judge said 'She went extremely well but I can't place you any higher as she isn't really a coloured':rolleyes:

ETA she is an Appy

[Howengold]

I remember why I gave up showing... the attitude of some of the showing fraternity.

The prize is more than the fun of showing.

:) yep that sums up why I now only let my girls go to local showing classes, for the fun of it.

[Fanshawe]

If Hal is blemished, then its tough- i accept that and he will be retired from showing if he is, i wont drag him around the local circuit or enter him for "imperfect" classes. i value him far more than that.

Now that's an interesting final comment. You train your horses with the attitude that end justifies the means yet you value them too much to 'drag him round the local circuit'. Do you never just have fun with your horses or are they only robots that go round and round in circles with their heads strapped in? What's wrong with going to local shows and having fun? Or is the image of perfection the only thing you aspire to? Valuing a horse is more than what prizes they can win you or what status they give you.:mad:

Oh and I'm guessing from the comments you've made that you don't actually know much about higher level showing and that the majority of the horses there have some sort of blemish, it's just that there are techniques used to disguise them?

[showbusiness]

It REALLY annoys me thats showing gets all this crap - I have been to many showjumping event where I have witnessed people do awful things to their horses, I've been to dressage competitions where the b*tching outside the ring is incredible - I've seen bad sportmanship, mothers screaming at kids and ponies passed about like toys at all sorts of horsey events, so PLEASE don't give showing that label. The vast majority of people who show are good natured, kind and enthusiastic people who are, like any horseman, devoted to their animals and sport. You get exceptions to that, but you do in any equine area.

Showing at a higher level requires a perfect horse. Some people cannot accept that ("My cob dishes but how dare showing poeple say he's imperfect, he's much more handsome than the one that won at the GYS!", "All horses are beautiful, none are not suitable for showing!!") and that is fine, but these people cannot then have a go at those of us who require a 'perfect' horse to show at a higher level.

Showing IS fun. Showjumping IS fun. Dressage IS fun. The local yard gymkana IS fun. There are people who will seem snobby or ungrateful or 'cliquey' at every single event, people who don't seem to be having fun. But it annoys me that some people think showing people are in it just for the rosettes and glory - we're normal, fun loving horse owners!!

[SmallHunter]

Showbusiness I love you:D

[heartofrainbow]

Like with anything, equine related or not, there are a small minority that give a bad impression, or ruin things for other people, and that is what stays in peoples minds!

Not the nice, kind, fun loving people who help each other out, or just have a good time!

[showbusiness]

Like with anything, equine related or not, there are a small minority that give a bad impression, or ruin things for other people, and that is what stays in peoples minds!

Not the nice, kind, fun loving people who help each other out, or just have a good time!

Exactly - and I'm afraid that someone in this thread is doing showing NO favours at all! I just hope everyone realises the the attitude of this particular person does not in any way echo the attitudes of most of the showing community!

[Howengold]

Like with anything, equine related or not, there are a small minority that give a bad impression, or ruin things for other people, and that is what stays in peoples minds!

Not the nice, kind, fun loving people who help each other out, or just have a good time!

I agree.

[Kc..]

Obviously us lot that go out local showing to enjoy our horses and have fun have got a screw loose :rolleyes:

[Howengold]

Obviously us lot that go out local showing to enjoy our horses and have fun have got a screw loose :rolleyes:

:D I definately agree on that one! We must all be round the bend!

[Fanshawe]

Just for the record Showbusiness I wasn't referring to all showing people just particular comments on her from those who seem to think that anyone not aiming for the top is wasting their time.

I agree that at the top level, yes perfection is key and not all horses meet the grade regardless of how loved they are. I also know that there are lots of lovely people in all spheres of horse competitions. It's the ones who are insulting to those who want to go along and have fun in any competition that get me:mad:

ETA:oops sorry cross posted!

[SmallHunter]

I would like to point out that I may think the classes are pointless but that does not make me a cliquey showing snob like some have hinted at.
If someone could give me a reason for these classes then fair enough but I still don't think there is one and my point about blemishes not affecting you at RC level seem to have gone unnoticed even though I know this from experience.

[Howengold]

I would like to point out that I may think the classes are pointless but that does not make me a cliquey showing snob like some have hinted at.
If someone could give me a reason for these classes then fair enough but I still don't think there is one and my point about blemishes not affecting you at RC level seem to have gone unnoticed even though I know this from experience.

The point of these classes is to give more variety and most important of all FUN for us normal folk who show for a bit of fun x

[showbusiness]

Just for the record Showbusiness I wasn't referring to all showing people just particular comments on her from those who seem to think that anyone not aiming for the top is wasting their time.

I agree that at the top level, yes perfection is key and not all horses meet the grade regardless of how loved they are. I also know that there are lots of lovely people in all spheres of horse competitions. It's the ones who are insulting to those who want to go along and have fun in any competition that get me:mad:

My comments weren't aimed at you, they were just general.

I absolutely despise anyone who has the attitude you describe - why would people who love showing try to turn people away from it, even at a local level? It is where most people started out, myself included, and is a vital stepping stone for getting experience, advice and most of all, having fun.
Anyone who looks down on local shows needs ignored, because they obviously have little grasp of the grass roots of showing.

[rtk]

And this is my lad I entered in the WHP.

http://i564.photobucket.com/albums/ss83/feistypony/PF%20summer%20show/DSC_0376.jpg

Are you actually doing the working hunter class in question in this pic?


"The judge said lovely horse shame its grey" But the judge didn't say "It would have won if it was not grey" - not the same thing. I have been told by judges "shame its coloured" when ours actually won, it was just a passing remark.

[Kc..]

I would like to point out that I may think the classes are pointless but that does not make me a cliquey showing snob like some have hinted at.
If someone could give me a reason for these classes then fair enough but I still don't think there is one and my point about blemishes not affecting you at RC level seem to have gone unnoticed even though I know this from experience.

I do agree, a few blemishes is un-likely to hinder you at local level. However it does encourage people to get into showing, those who have blemished hroses and think they can't do it. It's only going to encourage people into the sport so can't be a bad thing surely?

Un-fortunately i've met far too many showing people similar to some that have posted on here in the past to begin to like it again. However i am going to give a ridden & working hunter class a go at the weekend so we shall see :)

[SmallHunter]

But there is variety at RC level already these are the same classes that are run at RC level this is what I don't get.
I show at RC level with a scarred horse she does well in 'normal' classes, Show Hunter, Riding horse, Pony club Pony, Ridden Odd coloured, In hand Odd coloured, In hand riding horse these are all classes she has competed in and done well in is that not variety enough. They are just the classes she is eligible for.
So I can take her in the 'all but perfect' class as well as the normal classes do the non blemished horses then get extra classes added too so they have more variety?
As I have said before I am 'normal' folk I compete at RC level on a horse I was given for free hardly your an expensive HOYS horse.

[lottie.dot]

I think some of us on here are taking this too seriously.

First off, so what is there is this new class. How does it affect anyone else?
If it allows some people to ''have a go'' with a marked horse than why does this matter so much to anyone else??????

This reminds me of when walk and trot tests where out, lots of people moaning about if you cannot canter than you shouldn't be doing dressage... Well as always it's never as clear cut as this.

Yes, I agree that with top level, should be perfection or aiming for I should say. I wouldn't dream of taking a horse that can only jump 3ft into a grand prix showjumping competition (OK, I obviously wouldn't get in....) But... If this class allows people who would love to do it, but otherwise wouldn't then I just don't see why it would affect anyone. If your horse is topnotch then you have nothing to worry about!
xxxx

[Tiredtessa]

My comments weren't aimed at you, they were just general.

I absolutely despise anyone who has the attitude you describe - why would people who love showing try to turn people away from it, even at a local level? It is where most people started out, myself included, and is a vital stepping stone for getting experience, advice and most of all, having fun.
Anyone who looks down on local shows needs ignored, because they obviously have little grasp of the grass roots of showing.

The usual reason is that they are scared of genuine competition

[Sunshine-x]

Rtk no i was not showing in the picture i was at dressage i just wanted to give an idea of what he looked like! And the judge said eh would have done better if it wasn't for the fact he was grey.

[Howengold]

But there is variety at RC level already these are the same classes that are run at RC level this is what I don't get.
I show at RC level with a scarred horse she does well in 'normal' classes, Show Hunter, Riding horse, Pony club Pony, Ridden Odd coloured, In hand Odd coloured, In hand riding horse these are all classes she has competed in and done well in is that not variety enough. They are just the classes she is eligible for.
So I can take her in the 'all but perfect' class as well as the normal classes do the non blemished horses then get extra classes added too so they have more variety?
As I have said before I am 'normal' folk I compete at RC level on a horse I was given for free hardly your an expensive HOYS horse.


If its pointless to you fair enough but to others its a nice 'extra' class that will entice them in. Surely enticing more people in to RC and Showing is better than allowing the alledgedly 'snobby' reputation that showing has, become the reason people won't enter. The more non-conventional classes there are the less the repution of 'stuck up snobs' will exhist.

[SmallHunter]

I would like to say I'm not trying to discourage anyone about showing I am trying to ENCOURAGE them to try the normal classes at a show as they might just find that the blemish has little or no effect on their placing at all.

[JustJas]

Obviously us lot that go out local showing to enjoy our horses and have fun have got a screw loose :rolleyes:

I remember being told in a line up by the girl next to me - "just think... some people just hack out." I was at a loss for words but was too distracted by the romance between my in season mare and the lovely dun connemara stallion next pony but one.

My horses now live at a showing yard, I really admire the huge amount of work everyone there puts into their horses... and I can see why they are disappointed up they are when they do not win. They put everything into that show. Just not me any more - getting old and happy just to pootle.

[Howengold]

I would like to say I'm not trying to discourage anyone about showing I am trying to ENCOURAGE them to try the normal classes at a show as they might just find that the blemish has little or no effect on their placing at all.

But for first timers and new owners 'normal' classes are quite intimidating, and have you stood back and looked around, these people who do the normal classes really are out to win, in our RC many are pot hunters from county level these days who wouldn't look twice at a 'novelty' type class where the newcomers would be happier till they get confident enough to do the normal classes. My kids love showing in anything but not everyone does.

[Iron Maiden]

If Hal is blemished, then its tough- i accept that and he will be retired from showing if he is, i wont drag him around the local circuit or enter him for "imperfect" classes. i value him far more than that.

Will he notice the difference? No. Don't inflict your own snobbery on your horse.

[Soot]

i wont drag him around the local circuit

My horses love going places - it would be a harsh punishment for them to no longer be dragged around because of some scars. I like to keep my horses outside in a big herd (= kicks, scars, etc), so I stick to dressage. I prefer dressage anyway as I greatly enjoy it. However, an almost perfect showing class would be perfect for my almost perfect trads!

Is it ever about "dragging" a horse about? Is not more about riding in a way you & the horse enjoy, be that on your own in the forest or in front of crowds in the spotlight?

[Iron Maiden]

I think it's more to do with 'I wouldn't be seen dead there', like the horse cares!

[HashRouge]

If someone could give me a reason for these classes then fair enough but I still don't think there is one and my point about blemishes not affecting you at RC level seem to have gone unnoticed even though I know this from experience.
Well most little blemishes won't affect you at RC level, but for horses like my mare who have terrible and very evident scarring it is unlikely that they will have much of a chance even at the average local shows. I'm not saying she is the nicest Arab you've ever seen and should win all her classes etc, but she is pretty with (I've been told by vets) very good conformation. The problem is that her scars are very unslightly - judges just won't overlook them (I'm not just assuming this - it's been said to me). So classes like this would be useful for me if I ever fancied having a go at showing :)

[SO1]

There are several reasons that I think theses classes are a good idea

1) Why not have something different at a county or agricultural show there is plenty of room for everyone to join in and have a fun day out why not even have some other fun classes like handy pony etc. I can see no reason why everyone could not be made welcome and join in.
2) Gives people who might not otherwise have the chance an opportunity to experience the buzz of having lots of spectators and atmosphere that local shows don't tend to have.
3) Allows normal people who can only afford one horse who may get injured or have a rescue horse to join in.
4) Promotes horse welfare - some people may decide to get rid of perfectly good horse just because it has a blemish as they want to go to county shows.
5) Gives showing a better name as it then become less exclusive.

As for looppylozza you may be a perfectly nice person in real life but you are coming across as being very patronising and arrogant which very unbecoming in a young person. If you only had one pony and had to pay for everything yourself then you may think differently and welcome the chance of classes lo like this to compete in if your pony was permanently blemished.

For most people showing at all levels is a chance to "show off" their beloved horses or ponies it is just a shame that some people have to spoil it. Unfortunately often these people have bigger mouths and shout more loudly than the normal nice people who are involved so it seems like everyone is like this. I do think with all the money now involved at top level showing people are not as friendly as they used to be because of the immense pressure to win.

In other equestrian sports it is easy for competitors to see why someone else has won they have jumped clear in the fastest time or have produced the most accurate dressage test and you get marks and comments on your test sheet - where as showing is so subjective that competitors are not always aware of why someone has won and judges are not always good at explaining their reasoning for placing (probably in some cases through fear of being verbal abused by disgruntled parents or competitors) which does not help.

I would like to point out that I may think the classes are pointless but that does not make me a cliquey showing snob like some have hinted at.
If someone could give me a reason for these classes then fair enough but I still don't think there is one and my point about blemishes not affecting you at RC level seem to have gone unnoticed even though I know this from experience.

[Elly Koopman]

Was just thinking about this as now finally going through the boxes of gear from the show and was looking at the brown cover-up stick that I bought to cover up the girth galls Rosie has picked up in the last week before the show (I didn't use it as it just made it more obvious :rolleyes:). Which came first - the blemished horse or the cover-up stick?

I'm not being facetious, but did these products come from the higher levels as 'producers tricks' (not talking about chalk and baby oil, I'm talking about products that hide things), or have they come about from the bottom up to enable people to get their horses to a higher level than having their ponios 'au-naturel'?

[pedilia]

in our RC many are pot hunters from county level these days who wouldn't look twice at a 'novelty' type class where the newcomers would be happier till they get confident enough to do the normal classes.


Don't even get me started.....:cool:

[Zani]

I think it's a great idea, and may well get some people into showing that ordinarily would not have attempted it.

I do think that at local level though, blemished horses are the norm and depending on the judge field scrapes and the likes are often overlooked in any case.

In an ideal world I don't see why a scarred horse (as opposed to a bad conformation) should be excluded from any level of showing.

I would much rather see a conformationally sound and impeccably mannered and balanced horse with a scar winning than a completely ragged nutter of a beast that is perfect in every way other than mind and manners!

There is far far too much breeding going on to obtain the "perfect" show animal (and not just with horses) that the most fundamental traits can often be lost, and I think that is truly sad.

[racingstripes]

If Hal is blemished, then its tough- i accept that and he will be retired from showing if he is, i wont drag him around the local circuit or enter him for "imperfect" classes. i value him far more than that.

Wasnt going to reply but I couldnt stop laughing at the last comment. You won't get very far with that attitude in life, let alone at a county show. If I had that attitude at 17 my mother would of slapped me and told me to get real :eek:

So, please enlighten us, How would Hal know which show he was at exactly?

Also, Hal isn't suitable to hack but excels showing which I assume he enjoys. So if he had a blemish, you would deny him something he loves doing, just because your to stuck up to be seen at a local show? How the heck would he know! Good lord!

I'm sorry but people like you dont' deserve to win and are the kind of people that put others off showing altogether. I show, at local level but aim to start county next year. Hopefully I won't run into to many people with your attitude.To be honest, I did think you were very knowledgable on the showing front, but you clearly arnt!

Glad we've had some decent knowledgdabe showing folk on here to re-assure people that not everyone has that stinking attitude.

[Gruntfuttock]

if i could just move on a second from beating up Lozza....do these "imperfect" classes mean that one could show an aged unpapered mare, with a bulgy head, an old clipping scar on her chest and the most knobbly knees ever seen outside of Butlins? Because if so, watch out world - Ella and I are on our way !

[rtk]

if i could just move on a second from beating up Lozza....do these "imperfect" classes mean that one could show an aged unpapered mare, with a bulgy head, an old clipping scar on her chest and the most knobbly knees ever seen outside of Butlins? Because if so, watch out world - Ella and I are on our way !

Do you fancy doing the pairs with my 33 year old, so much grey he going roan, too long in the back and sagging all round then :D:D

[CER1389]

Am replying to this so I can come back and find it tomorrow when I get a chance to read all replys.

Strikes me as another T80 or Intro test ... we have an unaffiliated leve lfor a reason, why try and lower the level of the affiliated? I'm sure they will be well supported but still.
If these classes stay at local level then fine ... but equally are they needed when so much is excused at local level?
If they are to be another class at HOYS etc then it devalues what showing is all about.

How would the class be judged? If you had a show perfect hunter with a scar on left leg and a show perfect shetland with a scar on left leg ... both perfect examples bar the scar ... who wins?

Lozza - I don't think "Value" is the right word, but I do understand where you are coming from. You wouldn't take a grand prix horse into unaffiliated prelim just because its slightly arthritic or retired. I think is what you're trying to get across? For the amount of time, money and effort it takes to get a horse prepared for showing (not just a bath like us at local level, but full chalk or blue rinse etc and all the showing tips that take hours for higher levels) then it's not worth competing him with a blemish at a low level with no chance of getting anywhere?
Thats what I interpreted from reading the quoted bit .... didn't read your full post though as too knackered to process all!

[pedilia]

How would the class be judged? If you had a show perfect hunter with a scar on left leg and a show perfect shetland with a scar on left leg ... both perfect examples bar the scar ... who wins?


Surely it would be judged the same was as any showing class, if there are two horses that are 'show perfect' then the judge makes a decsision based on personal preference.

[Iron Maiden]

Surely it would be judged the same was as any showing class, if there are two horses that are 'show perfect' then the judge makes a decsision based on personal preference.

You could ask exactly the same question about coloured classes, there is no 'breed standard' so it's up to the judge to decide based on their own personal criteria.

I think the comparison with BE80(T) & Intro dressage is flawed. What we're talking about here is possibly elite horses which have had a bump or illness. The reasons for lowering the bar for entry level at BD & BE are not really the same.

ATEOTD the people who run these shows/events can't do it at a loss, so if there is a market for something, then cold commercial logic means you move into that market & get a piece of it. If that means creating new classes so more people can enter, better that than stop running events because the cashflow has dried up!

[shanzee]

I imagine a way to publisize these classes would be for the rescue charities to have links to them on their website. I imagine most people who have rescue horses would think they would be excluded from something grand sounding like the The Festival of Champions - incidently I have never heard of the festival of champions and I am a RC member have never even heard of the festival of champions so perhaps that is why these classes are not well attended.

I think you are right about the grand sounding name - the winter show is where points winners from each class at the affiliated riding clubs all compete head to head in a championship. It seems to be mainly midlands and northern riding clubs up to now, but I think they are trying to spread the appeal. (Incidently I am nothing to do with the Festival Association, just trying to spread the word about rescue classes). I think like you say the organisers need to have links with welfare charities.

www.festivalassociation.co.uk

(Sorry to stray from the main topic :))

[heartofrainbow]

I don't know about everyone else and different areas but ...

Locally to me there is only 1 RC who have a summer show with show classes, they have the novelty classes (e.g., fancy dress, tack and turnout etc), and then have a small selection of other classes (e.g., working hunter, lead rein, coloured etc)

So around by me the choice isn't exactly varied, my welshie would not fit into the majority of classes in our RC show, therefore I have to travel further a field!

Luckily my welshie does not have any blemishes and has reasonably good conformation, however my arab x welsh has scars from trying to climb through a barbed wire fence! Although I can enter her locally again the variety of classes is not great so I would welcome the opportunity to have a more varied form of class, whether they are blemished or unblemished.

[NuttySpaniel]

I can see everybodys point of view on this one.

I have a tranditional cob. Im aiming for higher then local level, but this isn't stopping me from entering them. It gives me and my horse expiricance. We have gone from last year coming 6th's and this year getting 1st and 2nds. Im still not confident enough to enter county level until I know me and my horse a caplable of it. Im going to work so hard over the winter to get his topline/muscle and will enter a inhand county show near the end of the showing season next year.

Lozza - I see your point totally.

[Peaches]

You could ask exactly the same question about coloured classes, there is no 'breed standard' so it's up to the judge to decide based on their own personal criteria.




I agree it can be done, but I don't think it is quite as simple as that. If we take the example of 2 show perfect but very different horses, both with a scar and take it further...One has a small kick scar, and another a fairly horrendous scar such as from an op (I mentioned this in my post earlier. I think it's relevant again in reference to the issue raised of judging being tricky, and also because somebody mentioned their horse is too scarred to get away with it being excused even at local level). Now whilst yes the judge may have a natural preference to one over the other, showing is also about the 'picture'. Now at the end of the day, a blemish spoils that 'picture' - a large scar much more than a small, so when the picture of the horse with a small scar is better than the picture of the horse with the large scar, how does a judge then decide what to do? Must they put the horse with the small scar down, even though the picture is better (assuming all else and preferences roughly equal here), because they must discount blemishes? That would be just as unfair as a blemished horse being put below an unblemished one - so I presume not the option. But then if the horse with huge scars is placed down in favour of the 'better picture' - well that's defying the whole point in the classes. A catch 22 decision in my mind, and one I can imagine coming up on a reasonably regular basis: I'd not like to be the judge is all I can say!! It's managable, but would be difficult to judge for sure. It runs the risk that the judge favours the overall picture and gets slated by the losers (sorry, not what I mean, but the people who don't take first or high end prizes) for favouring the 'less blemished', or that alternatively they feel the need to place the more blemished higher to avoid getting labelled that way in such a class :o

This is why I think it could potentially be a very difficult think on a practical basis too. And personally I don't see the need of another 'fun' class at local level as locally, even the normal breed/type classes (as apposed to the family or rc pony type classes), usually allow you away with blemishes to an extent. If that's not an option because of pothunters who show at county level...well are they pothunters winning ONLY because their horse is unblemished or because their county horses are conformationally, movement and/or way of going better? I'm not meaning that that excuses their pot hunting, but just mean that the chances are, without the rules being *extremely* stringent, if they are that inclined to go for the prizes and win the other classes anyway, they will have a horse with at least a tiny blemish that as a result could enter and still win...I don't know when or how you could draw the line to keep everybody happy?

As such, like I said before I'm not a fan of the idea. However I do recognise it could be a fun class at local level, and if it brings more people in at that level and hence more money to support small agricultural (not county) shows, which are disappearing every yr due to lack of entries and support all the better. And who knows, some of those who are encouraged to partake by these classes may in time feel confident enough to try out at county and see what happens too (like I explained from our own experience of a mare with a scarred and stitched leg who won all over the country at county level taking many champion and supreme championships - if your horse/pony is good enough, blemishes from accidents CAN be overlooked). Go ahead, have fun and enjoy showing :)

[SO1]

I guess peaches in the example you talk about the judge would have to imagine the horses in front of them are totally blemish free. So they would not be judging solely on the picture in front of them on the day but what the horse would be like if it did not have a scar. So it would make no difference how scared the horse was. It would just mean a judge would have to be good at zoning out the blemishes!

[MrKia+Me]

its not fair on the horse.

same way as i dont like veteran classes for the same reason- if it isnt sound enough and 'well' enough to go in a normal class then it shouldnt be out competing.
dont get me wrong, some veterans dont look their age and they are still ok, but if you would only take it in a veteran class then i would have a rethink.

perhaps im old fashioned, but i think all horses have a sell by date and they deserve a rest or a change to more sedate things (or different things anyway)

I am afraid I take offence at that staement LL!!!

Kia is only fit for Veteran Classes due to him not being regd so cannot do part breds, he is not dainty enough for riding horse, not big enough for small hunter so I do veteran with him and I have to say he does rather well.

He has arthritus in his left hock and you wouldnt bleeding well know it bu its there and he is out competing at DR as well.

Maybe you shouldnt be so narrow minded and open you mind to the fact that veterans arnt past their sell by date god I'd hate to be your iolder horse languishing in a field or sold on.

Oh and for your info Kia has a missing eyelid and permanent muscle scarring down his right side and yes in veteran blemishes are allowed due to the ages of the horses and its taken on condition and suppleness not just looks. Maybe read up on veteran showing before you slate all of us out there doing it.:mad:

Nikki xxxx

[Peaches]

I guess peaches in the example you talk about the judge would have to imagine the horses in front of them are totally blemish free. So they would not be judging solely on the picture in front of them on the day but what the horse would be like if it did not have a scar. So it would make no difference how scared the horse was. It would just mean a judge would have to be good at zoning out the blemishes!


I understand what you're saying and I appreciate it - but then we're getting into the realms of the judges using their imaginations to see something that isn't in front of them - which again takes us into tricky territory ;)

But I DO know what you mean, and yes it does sound the logical solution: but a solution which could lead to an awful lot of speculation and frowning.

A tricky situation indeed! :)

[cinammontoast]

I think it's a nice idea for people who have lovely horses that have perhaps been in an accident, for example and have scars.As long as they're sound, why not?

[Chrissie C]

kindly answer the questions i asked, rather than bouncing them back ;)

fwiw, Im 17 so still too young to go on judging panels, i have however grown up around high level judges (close friends), and also spectated many thousand classes over the years, listening to what my father said (he also judged, but not at high level simply because he didnt have the time to dedicate to it) and other judges outside of the ring, and following the judges decisions- catching up with them after the shows to talk to them about it or to clarify any reasons, so i can learn what to spot in a winner.
currently i specialise in welsh cobs (C's and D's, im not so good at the A's and B's because i simply arent as interested in them, i can still see a good one though) but i am growing to understand what they look for in hunters (both under saddle, and breeding) and also in sport horses (specifically hanoverians, but its quite easy to apply to all warmbloods as im sure you know)

I love that side of it, judging conformation and way of going and everything to do with showing, spotting a winner. exhilerating to say the least.

Good to hear your views, even if a little over the top and arrogant for a 17 year-old. You very obviously love your showing. SO, when you are old enough, do as I suggested previously - apply to a Panel (most probably The WPCS) and IF you pass the assesment, you can then make your views known in the Ring. Good luck. I look forward to hearing what happens. Best regards.

[SmallHunter]

Ok I'm going to stick my neck out here and say this.
How can you say to loopylozza to make her views known by joining a panel when you yourself are not on a panel?
You also said the very same thing on HHO when someone disagreed with you about splints I actually think it is a little hypocritical to go round saying this to people when you aren't on any panels yourself.

*Prepares to be shot for being a rude child*

[pedilia]

Ok I'm going to stick my neck out here and say this.
How can you say to loopylozza to make her views known by joining a panel when you yourself are not on a panel?
You also said the very same thing on HHO when someone disagreed with you about splints I actually think it is a little hypocritical to go round saying this to people when you aren't on any panels yourself.

*Prepares to be shot for being a rude child*

As far as I am aware ( although I stand to be corrected ) Chrissie hasn't sais she is on a panel, just that loopylozza could join one:)

[heartofrainbow]

Ok I'm going to stick my neck out here and say this.
How can you say to loopylozza to make her views known by joining a panel when you yourself are not on a panel?
You also said the very same thing on HHO when someone disagreed with you about splints I actually think it is a little hypocritical to go round saying this to people when you aren't on any panels yourself.

*Prepares to be shot for being a rude child*

How do we know that Chrissie C is or isn't on a judging panel? Has she actually stated what panels she is on? Or is this just a rumour started to cause additional tension and bitchyness?

Yes everyone is entitled to their views, whether they should be shared is another matter!

[SmallHunter]

Because when she suggested on both here and HHO to someone to join a panel to make there opinion known I got nosey and had a look at the Judge's Panel's for P(UK), BSPS, SHGB, BSHA, NPS and WPCS and could not find her on any.
Some might think this strange but I often look through them to see what panels the judges I am being judged by are on as they are free for all to see.

My point Pedilia is how can she suggest to everyone else to join a panel to give there opinion when she has not done the same.

*Hides again for being a nosey rude child*

[puzzles]

Fair point, SmallHunter - however, she seems to have more credibility as she has judged at all, this her opinion is to be respected as much as anyone else's. Expert/professionals aren't always right - this is still a matter of opinion.

x

[eml]

Have fortunately missed most of this thread but I really think it has gone far enough , got too personal, and totally gone off track.

Like all classes they will appeal to some and not to others.

I think however this thread needs closing now