What do you consider excessive use of the whip?

[tandp]

Following on from an earlier thread about Burghley, it made me think 'Well what is excessive use of the whip?'

Is it entirely subjective and like to change between one person and the next, and if so who and how do they decide what 'excessive' use of the whip is in competition.

The chap on the grey horse at Burghley - IMO - was a little late with his use of the whip and seemed more frustration based than thought based (BTW, these people ride Burghley far better than I could, so hat's off to them there!).

And then take Ellen Whitaker and the Hickstead Derby earlier this year. The horse wouldn't go down the bank, so she proceeded to whack it several times, even after she had turned away from the bank.

Put into the equation that jockeys have strict rules about whip use and it turns into one big grey area.

What do you all think?

[Che's]

The BHS, BSJA and FEI etc have strict defanitions on what is and is not excessive use.

A whip must be used as an aid, not a punishment. The force used must be necessary and proportionate. The whip may not be rasied abovse sholder height and must strike the rump, not the flanks. Where there is a refusal the whip may be applied only before the horse is turned away from the fence and not more than 2 seconds after the stop. Where there is a run out it may be applied not more than 2 seconds after the rider has regained control. It may be re-applied on re-presenting the horse to the fence as long as it is an aid and not a punishment.

That said I think it is really hard to make a judgement call and I wonder if fence judges are reluctant to pull up the big name riders on stuff like this. The problem is that kids see the top names doing it and think its OK to do the same but perhaps with less judgement as to how and when.

[Chunkykiwi]

Personally, IMO, ANY use of the whip is excessive to me. I never so m,uch as carry a whip and see no place for whips at all.
Like I said though, this is just my own view on the matter.

[Che's]

I tend to agree having not carried a whip for years. But I do take one hacking. If you tie a bit of flourescent ribbon to a schooling whip and hold it out to one side you can get cars to pass you a bit wider. (You can also wack them on the roof if they don't - calm horse only!) I've also had a freind use her whip to drive off an aggressive dog on a hack - although I've not had to do that thank god!

[Snowyboy]

i had this converstation yesterday with two show jumping judges as there was an incident the week before where I was delighted that they called a child - approx 10 yrs old - on excessive use of whip

they called the parents to the judges box to speak to them and when the child was carrying out the incident they did in the end call the child to stop over the tannoy system

I was shocked at the way the child was using the whip and was delighted the judges were as well and was saying yesterday how pleased I was that the pulled the incident


we then had the - how to you call misuse of whip - conversation


we concluded there is no hard and fast rule per say and each incident has to be looked at on its own merits

a beating is a beating and is unacceptable and that would be taking the whip about the shoulder and bringing it down as punishment

one smack at a refusal when facing the fence is different to smacking them repeatedly

is the smack in anger? is excessive force used? is it reprimand or a punishment - its not easy!

I am not anti whip - just anti it in some hands!

my daughter carries a whip and noone that knows us and has seen her ride could say she uses it inappropriately - in fact, I wish she would sometimes give him a tap just to make him listen more - not a wallop but a tap behind the leg to say hey Mr, wake up rather than have to start kicking him on!

I know another child who was carrying a whip on Saturday and when the pony didn't instantly do as she wanted she smacked the pony really hard in anger and I was shocked after the 2nd time the whip wasn't taken off her - it was in the end but only after the 5th or 6th anger whallop

I say 2nd time as I would have said after the 1st time, you do that again to that pony and I'll take the whip off you - I've not seen this child carry a whip before so I'd give benefit of doubt and teach them we don't use the whip in anger - but that is there one and only chance!

not sure that my waffle makes any sense!

[huskyfinn]

i can't actually SAY/EXPLAIN what is excessive use of the whip but i know when i see it i can recognise that it's excessive.

i've seen some people whip their horse with a whip on almost every stride and it's a hard smack from high up, the horse is now dead to that whole whipping thing and it's sad. i've seen someone ride the same horse and use the whip once and the horse has moved willingly.

i've witnessed someone using a schooling whip in a dressage test and it was being used continuously throughout the test, the judges made no comment of it (rider took reins in one hand so could whip) and placed the pair high up.

i think you have to see the whole picture before/during and after to know if it was used in anger and so on. i personally carry a whip with me when i'm hacking but it's only to help me with gates and to keep cars passing wider.

[xxScarletxx]

I carry a schooling whip on Gypsy, but it is hardly ever used, when it is used it is a light touch without my hands coming off the reins, thats just enough to "wake her up"

I could never use one on my pony, he was badly beaten with one when i bought him 13 years ago, i would imagine that if anyone used one on him you wouldnt see them for dust as he took off! but he is always forward going anyhow

[jenb]

It's not the fence judges, it's the officials! I have fenced judged at BE events and reported people for giving their horses a thrashing, but never had it followed up. I think more than three smacks is excessive, and lifting the arm high to bring the whip down as hard as you can is just not on either. There's a world of difference in giving a few little "wake up and pay attention" smacks to giving the horse a beating out of temper. IMHO Matthew Wright was out of order giving his horse 7-8 whacks for slipping in the water at Burghley - the horse was being perfectly obedient, it slipped purely because he did his usual aggressive riding and tried to cut the corner too sharply.

[Yann]

I missed that on the coverage but did see a rider get a refusal at the jump with the water running down it. The horse stopped and got hit a few times (very questionable) and then got some more as he turned and walked it away (totally out of order). I do think it's something that should be given more attention at every level, especially at the top.

[jenb]

You probably missed it on the coverage because I yelled at him not to smack his horse and I was right behind the TV microphones, oopsie...!!! :)

[beating_hooves]

I think any use that causes pain to the horse is excessive.

I carry a crop jumping. I rarely use it but when I do its just a little tap to get her attention and encourage her a little more over a jump.

[mikh]

I think a whip should only be used to back up the riders leg, not used in place of or for punishment. How many lazy schoolers I see who use a schooling whip instead of their legs!

[Elly Koopman]

I don't normally carry one - but every now and again will use a schooling whip on Rosie, but can only use it to tap her as anything else will make her catapult me :D When I did my BHS exams I had to carry one and you got marked down for not using it correctly (while jumping if I needed to I literally just flicked my wrist to make a noise on the shoulder, never needed to actually take my hand of the rein and smack the rump and yet I still got marked down :D)

I have to say I'm with Yann on the horse that refused the waterfall - IMO something should have been said, but then it comes down to who has the balls to say anything :rolleyes:

A whip has it's place -- you need one for side saddle, para equestrian etc. and they can be used responsibly, but I do think controls needed to be tightened if the rules state what is classed as misuse, then this needs to be enforced :o

[kitcat2]

I don't like using one but if I do I would only give on short, sharp tap. I carry a scooling whip so when I use it I hit my leg more than Ritchie. The only real reason I use it is to re-inforce my leg aids as he has a tendancy to nap and the best way to get him going forwards is give him a quick smack.

One riding instructor once pointed out to me that it is sometimes kinder to give one, well defined command than repeatedly using your legs:o Just has to be used in moderation and the right circumstances. And NEVER in anger:mad: :o

[Widget]

Surely anything more than a singular smack is over use?

[abisheridee]

I think any use of the whip as a punishment is excessive. The whip should be an extension of your arm, or an aid to your leg, never used harshly. Also I don't believe in it for 'encouragement' as in, when pushing a horse over a jump- you're still causing them pain.

[cloudandmatrix]

when its used in anger or fustration- a tap is a back up but there is no need for wacking- but i do believe on a lazy horse one short sharp smack is so much better than many boots, or pathetic ones, rubbing thier sides. i dont use one on cloud, but have used ones before.

[Gruntfuttock]

A whip has it's place -- you need one for side saddle, para equestrian etc. and they can be used responsibly,

I don't think I've ever seen a competitor either in a side-saddle class or in a para dressage class getting whip-happy. Unfortunately, I think show-jumpers are some of the worst offenders (or maybe the eventers jsut wallop their horses behind trees during the XC so no-one notices).

[Elly Koopman]

I don't think I've ever seen a competitor either in a side-saddle class or in a para dressage class getting whip-happy. Unfortunately, I think show-jumpers are some of the worst offenders (or maybe the eventers jsut wallop their horses behind trees during the XC so no-one notices).
Never said it they did get whip happy - was just pointing out that you can 'need' a whip, but it doesn't have to be used in excess :)

[Bubbles1989]

its the little kids in the show jumping ring hitting and hitting and hitting that annoy me, i cant understand the logic, you've already smacked him about 5 times and hes not moved any faster, surely hitting him anymore and you're just gonna have a very unhappy pony.

Saw a definate excessive use of spurs in the show ring yesterday, poor horse. Worst thing is she ended up winning so is unlikely to stop the constant jabbing! :(

[plentyoftime]

When I did my BHS exams I had to carry one and you got marked down for not using it correctly (while jumping if I needed to I literally just flicked my wrist to make a noise on the shoulder, never needed to actually take my hand of the rein and smack the rump and yet I still got marked down :D)

I have to say I'm with Yann on the horse that refused the waterfall - IMO something should have been said, but then it comes down to who has the balls to say anything :rolleyes:

A whip has it's place -- you need one for side saddle, para equestrian etc. and they can be used responsibly, but I do think controls needed to be tightened if the rules state what is classed as misuse, then this needs to be enforced :o

I agree with you and your mindset/approach as an aid, for some individuals they are also a safety and assistance tool..

Personally, I think whips have their uses ;) ..... Ther is a place and time lol

I would much prefer to see a world where they were not needed at all. Is it the fact that people who use the whip a sign of bad or ineffective riding? I have heard this mentioned on our yard. Perhaps the horse does not respect or trust them enough, so brute force is the only way? I don't know..

I think though if someone is to provide a child with a whip, they should teach the child when, where and how to use the whip effectively. Isn't it funny how we have banned the whip from schools when humans won't do as they are told and yet we are happy to whip animals 'To encourage them' to behave!!!!! or to do something they perhaps are not comfortable with. Also with regards to the B.H.S exam stuff, arguably this is another sign of an antiquainted culture being enforced. Carrying a whip because it's the nostalgic thing to do and no one in the organisation ever questions why?

[puzzles]

People can, and many do, ride very successfully & happily without a whip. If a rider becomes so dependent on it that they have to have one every time they ride, then I would become wary and think they ought to reassess their riding & methods. I personally will never feel comfortable seeing anyone with a whip, because carrying one means that you at some point intend to use it, in some way. I do not trust people who use instruments yet remain completely ignorant to a) what it is like for the horse, and b) the actual message(s) it communicates to the horse about the rider. I never, ever think a whip should be used for punishment. In my eyes, it is never, ever "necessary" to use force with a horse. Even a sharp., hard tap to back up the leg makes me wince, even though I can justify/explain it, as I do not think it is right for a horse to habitually (or haver it used as a training method) feel s/he has to obey to avoid pain/discomfort of some sort. I strongly believe that you only "need" one if you start to use one. The horse never misses having a whip used on him. When I carry one, I always hit my leg or boot for the effect of the noise. Howeverdespite all the justifications, explanations & uses of the whip, the general underlying aim/effect is created by a short, sharp pain/shock/loud noise, which isn't a method I'd be proud of deliberately and habitually employing.

x

[womble1]

I think it entirely depends on how and why the whip is used. I do not agree with using the whip as a punishment or in anger. I also don't agree with using it to smack a horse.

I do however ride with a schooling whip every single time I ride my horse and will usually use it on multiple occasions in a schooling session (can't remember a time when I've used it out hacking...I mostly carry it out of some stupid idea that it would be handy if anyone ever tried to pull me off my horse!!). This may sound like excessive use to some of you. BUT I use the whip as an aid and only ever tickle him with it (literally wiggle the string bit against him) or place it against him. The most he ever gets is a little tap with both hands still on the reins if he's taking the mick (very rare) and it doesn't hurt at all...I've tried it on myself. We used to school to a decent level of dressage and I use the whip as just another way of communicating with him, just like our hands, legs, weight and seat. I don't have any problem with the whip being used as an aid in this way.

[xloopylozzax]

i do think you can go too far the other way aswell- some horses do actually need a crack to say wake up, get off my legs and do some work you lazy bugger- if you keep squeezing and patting its neck its just going to continue ignoring you and you wont get anywhere.

whips arent evil, and should be carried when you ride, lunge or drive- i always shudder when people write that their horse has never seen a whip, what happens when you need it (and there are several instances when you do need it aswell) they should never fear it, but respect it if that makes sense.

[BlueWicked]

i do think you can go too far the other way aswell- some horses do actually need a crack to say wake up, get off my legs and do some work you lazy bugger- if you keep squeezing and patting its neck its just going to continue ignoring you and you wont get anywhere.

whips arent evil, and should be carried when you ride, lunge or drive- i always shudder when people write that their horse has never seen a whip, what happens when you need it (and there are several instances when you do need it aswell) they should never fear it, but respect it if that makes sense.

i agree with this.

i would never ever ride xc without one! i used mine at 3 fences competing at the weekend! Just a tap on the shoulder at 2, but a harder smack behind my leg at one point. WHy? Well what would YOU rather? Horse going forwards and carrying you safely over the fence.. or horse spooking and backing off the fence and either putting in a stop or hitting it - possibly resulting in injuries for both horse and rider:rolleyes:

i would also never go for a hack without one! If my horse decided to be a plonker and spin round in the road because of a funny looking leaf id want to have a whip to back up my legs and save us both coming to grief!

[ridingstar]

This probably won't suit all tastes, but I was always taught that up to three whacks with the whip held upright are acceptable in xc and show jumping after a refusal, provided the stop was not caused by rider error and the horse is disciplined within three seconds of the disobedience. That said, one hard whack is normally plenty to remind the horse that there are consequences. Any more than three for one disobedience would be excessive. :eek:

[IrishGreenSheep]

I carry a whip but very rarely use it, when i do its a very gentle reminder to "come on and focus on your job".

On the other hand I was at a horse sale at the weekend and my boyfriend has to stop me going after a boy who kept WHACKING his horse that wouldn't jump a fence. It was entirely his fault, he was turning very sharply to the fences and not giving the horse any chance to see the bloody thing let alone try jump it. The horse was also stumbling coming around the corners he was turning so sharp! Was very nearly going after him to give him a piece of my mind but decided it was best not to. Thankfully the person who bought said horse had a very kind nature so heres hoping the horse won't have to put up with that anymore

[cinammontoast]

Racing-hate it and kids at shows who thump their ponies when it wasn't the pony's fault.:mad:

[BecknSkye]

I don't like to see whips used with a swing behind it, that's not a 'hey, attention here!' signal in my view, that's a wallop. If it takes a wallop to get a horse to listen, where's the lightness, softness and responsiveness we are trying to encourage?

[vimto92]

Surely anything more than a singular smack is over use?

I don't like people hitting their horse, but I do agree with this and there are situations where hitting your horse is needed.

I don't think whip usage in racing is as excessive as it used to be. Lets not forget that they can't really use their legs all that much, the whip is in fact air cushioned and at least half the time they are just waving the whip within the horses vision rather than clobbering them one.

[Dees-unpaidgroom]

I have the opinion that "a whip is the extention of your leg" I dont like using my whip but sometimes it is nessary and i do carry on all the time. Dee my pony can be very lazy at times and sometimes she does need reminding that she should be listening to me :rolleyes: and also when she is taking the mick out hacking on the roads - walking backward is her fave game atm!- i feel that its better for her to have a smack from the whip which instantly sends her forwards rather than her continuing to mess about on the roads which is much more dangerous.

I dont agree with the use of the whip excessivly and i feel that excessive use of the whip would be beating the horse rather than encouraging them forward or using the whip as a small punishment to say pack it in!

[Hammie]

When I carry one, I always hit my leg or boot for the effect of the noise.
x

Your mileage may vary... I tend towards the hit-your-boot method, but if I do this with my share horse she couldn't care less. Might as well not bother at all!

[CER1389]

Use of the whip is excessive if unjustified, within a delayed time frame from the incident, or the horse is being punished in anger for a riders mistake.

and then got some more as he turned and walked it away (totally out of order).
See in my eyes the rider had his leg on and the horse would not go forward, he was napping and having a strop - so he got a smack to say go forward away from the jump. At the end of the day the rider was still being timed and was under penalties. Having made the descion to continue then he needs ot get the horse moving off again as fast as possible. If the horse is napping it's more time wasted.
Same with the use of the whip on the way back into the fence: the rider has to make sure he gets the horse over, to avoid another 20 penalties, and so forceful riding is used, alongside legs. The horse obviously understands this style of whip use.
Rather than focusing more attention on this at the top level, on the riders .... then surely it has somethign to do with the fact they are being "forced" to use their whip to be competitive and within the time and I guess (from what I percieve to be your point of view) that the use of the whip is detriment to the horses health.

I have to say that in xc as logn as the whip is being used for a reason: horse back off leg, napping, a dirty refusal etc then I have no issue. What I hate is if a horse is backing off a fence and the rider just sits there doing nothing, horse stops and then gets forcefully beaten .... if the rider is doing all they can and the horse is just ignoring them then whip use is fair.

Equally you need to look at horses previous record: a pony going around it's first prelim who refused and was hit in the same manner is excessive ... the pony is green and inexperienced.
A horse such as that going around Burghley ... it knows it's job ... there was no reason to run out other than spookiness (as opposed to some which stop due to poor striding) and that is unnacceptable: so use of the whip is justified

[Sunshine-x]

When im sj or xc with my mare she soemtimes gets a tap down the shoulder as we go into the fence if i can feel her backing off coz it gives her the confidence that yes im still here, we can do it, go on.

You can see in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUHKF-DkrAU half way through that i smack ehr on the bum going into a fence coz although you cant see it that much in the vid she was properly backing up and im not about to let her stop at a tiny house thing!! If she refuses she gets a smack on the bum, turned away and presented again.

To me this is acceptable but to soem of you probably not. What i dislike is people such as Laura Renwick who beat their horse when they have put it to a fence at a bl**dy stupid angle imo. Or kids who dont use thier legs and just smack their pony.

[flinglebunt]

As a ten year old I was told to use a whip in a riding lesson. The pony bucked so hard I just took off like an ejector seat from a stricken plane.

I never picked one up again and never missed it. It makes my blood boil to see kids whacking away at some pony that is doing its best to please. Like the brats you see riding ponies with dutch gags on the bottom ring where is the skill in it?

If the pony won;t jump or go fast enough why not get out the cattle prod, do the job properly and put twenty thousand volts through its backside?

[CER1389]

If the pony won;t jump or go fast enough why not get out the cattle prod, do the job properly and put twenty thousand volts through its backside?

Personally I find ten thousand to be the optimum voltage to work ... just for future reference :p

[m22]

It should only be used as a back up for the leg, and never for punishment.

I always carry a schooling whip, I had a very nappy youngster once and he got a few sharp taps when hacking out alone and he decided spinning and rearing was appropriate in the middle of a road. He was never scared of the whip (he always used to pick it and chew on the ends) but he respected it. Nothing worse than seeing someone kicking a horse in the ribs (or turning the spurs inwards) when a tap with the stick is all that is required.

And I hate watching someone pumping away with their legs on every stride in the school. The horse should be schooled to go off the leg and if it doesnt, gets a tap and told to move off the leg. That way you only need to use your leg to ask for more impulsion and steering and not just to get the horse round the school.

In jumping it is a bit more difficult - sometimes a horse might need a bit more encouragement to go over or not to drop a shoulder and run out and allowing it to do so would escalate problems. But again, it shouldnt be beaten with a stick, nor should it be used after you have turned away from the jump i.e. as a punishment for refusing.

The (non-professional) people I see who are whip happy are on horses who are barely moving or spoilt children whose ponies arent fast enough or child has had a temper tantrum because they havent won the class. Put any of those people on something sharper and they would quickly learn.

[Buttonmoon]

Like Che's comments re schooling whip out hacking I carry one for the same reason - to make cars pass wider. I have - in the past - thwacked a car on the roof when they passed to fast and close!! Never saw them again so don't know if they got the message. IMO if professional riders are having tantrums and beating their horses on either a showjumping or crosscountry course they should have their horse taken off them when they leave the arena and have the same treatment administered to them - at least one can tell them why!!! A horse does not understand why it is being beaten. Perhaps professional bodies should issue more black and white rules. Why should a showjumper need a whip anyway? Perhaps I am trimming away too many variables here but when they get to that level they should just point and jump (yeah I know that is a little simplistic but hopefully you will get the point).

[joey_olop]

If a horse refuses out of naughtiness then a smack behind the leg once is acceptable, anything other is just plain abuse of the whip IMO.
If I feel my boy looking at a SJ when we are in the ring I will give him a squeeze with my legs, if I still feel he is looking I will give him a little tap on the shoulder.
I saw Laura Renwick (SP??) at Olympia last year give her horse a right good hiding & that to me was whip abuse, absolutely no need.

[puzzles]

i do think you can go too far the other way aswell- some horses do actually need a crack to say wake up, get off my legs and do some work you lazy bugger- if you keep squeezing and patting its neck its just going to continue ignoring you and you wont get anywhere.

whips arent evil, and should be carried when you ride, lunge or drive- i always shudder when people write that their horse has never seen a whip, what happens when you need it (and there are several instances when you do need it aswell) they should never fear it, but respect it if that makes sense.

If a horse needed to be hit hard, and at least fairly often within a single session, with a whip just to make him/her go forward, then I think you'd seriously need to objectively criticise & change your ridden work, the way that you train your horse, his environment and maybe his feed etc, as having an unresponsive/lazy/*enter word here* horse is no justification for strong use of the whip. Anyone may claim that this is an idealistic vision, but it is perfectly do-able.

May I ask anyone what makes a whip "needed"?

x

[Sierra]

Hmm.. now according to how often I use the whip, I would probably be considered 'excessive' in a jumping round! Just before I want to take off, I give Jasper a tap (and literally a tap!) with the whip on the shoulder. This gives him encouragement to jump the fence and instructs him when he needs to jump - otherwise he tends to 'bury' himself in the jump and have to make an enormous catleap up and over. Inconvenient over most fences and almost dangerous at a spread! It causes him no pain or abuse - in fact, he prefers it to picking out his own spot! Leave him alone and he tends to worry and rush his fences, give him that bit of instruction and he settles right down and listens. Its maybe not correct but its what I like and what he likes so I'll continue.

I wouldnt use this on every horse and dont really use a whip at all apart from that - only really when I'm schooling and want something I can use (if its needed) to back up my leg.

You can see an example in this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCb_-2CnszQ) video, just before the last jump. Tricky angle, big jump, so gave him a tap (much harder then usual actually) just to say 'its all right, get up and go'.

[xloopylozzax]

If a horse needed to be hit hard, and at least fairly often, with a whip to make him/her go forward, then I think you'd seriously need to objectively criticise & change your ridden work, the way that you train your horse, his environment and maybe his feed etc, as having an unresponsive/lazy/enter word here horse is no justification for strong use of the whip. You may claim that this is an idealistic vision, but it is perfectly do-able.

x

did i say my horses need it... no....

i have seen many, many horses though that do though, if more people used a stick occasionally there would be more responsive horses who wouldnt grow to ignore aids in the first place because they would listen and react first time round.

i would rather see someone give the horse a crack at the beginning of the session then be able to ride proplerly with the horse infront of their legs, than nag continuously with their legs for the rest of the ride.

[vimto92]

"needed" to me is if your horse is out on the road and you are put into a dangerous situation or whatnot, or your horse is out on the road and napping. I also think they are a very good alternative to strong repetitive leg aids - it doesn't need to be a smack, a flick will do. I wouldn't smack a horse for refusing a fence, but that is just me, I would however ride more positively towards it, backed up with my whip as encouragement, not punishment.

[puzzles]

i do think you can go too far the other way aswell- some horses do actually need a crack to say wake up, get off my legs and do some work you lazy bugger- if you keep squeezing and patting its neck its just going to continue ignoring you and you wont get anywhere.

whips arent evil, and should be carried when you ride, lunge or drive- i always shudder when people write that their horse has never seen a whip, what happens when you need it (and there are several instances when you do need it aswell) they should never fear it, but respect it if that makes sense.

Loopylozza - The above explains my asking about the reasons why a horse "needs" a whip. And "need" implies that you can't do without it.
I'd also like to add that it is extremely debatable that a horse who apparently "respects" a whip does not fear it in any way ...

x

[xloopylozzax]

need- to stop you going under a bus, push them over if they evade and hang on the fence (scraped legs, not nice), push them away from a ditch, to tell someone elses horse/dog or even the person themself to bugger off, to make cars pass wider.
use to signal what you are planning to do on the roads (driving and riding)
speeds them up, gets their attention back quickly if they wander off

theres dozens of reasons, i've only just scratched the surface- those who hack should always carry one, because simply horses are unpredictable as are the circumstances you may find yourself in and it will benefit you. it doesnt do anything unless you tell it, so you arent loosing anything by carrying it.

[SmallHunter]

I can hand on heart say that Kane is not frightened of my schooling whip.
How do I know this because I did a little test I started by just brushing the end along his cheek, he tried to eat it:rolleyes: then I tickled his nose with it, then i jiggled it a bit in front of his face and then waved in from side to side in front of him. He didn't even blink. Horses recognise intent if I had stood and shouted and waved it at him in an angry way I'm quite sure he would have pooped his pants (he's nervous like that) but I remained calm as I do whenever I use the whip during schooling and there was no fear at all.

[x-Marmite-x]

May I ask anyone what makes a whip "needed"?

x

For brushing flies off his belly :D. It's the only time I've felt that I 'needed' a whip :o. Toby and I manage perfectly well without one, when he gets lazy it means he's bored out of his brains, so I get him thinking ;). If I'm asking him to trot and he's flopping along at a snail's pace, I'll ask him to trot a figure of eight, for example. When he starts slopping along it's because he's figured out he doesn't need to use his brain to do what he's doing and that's my issue to address :). I'm not going to leap in and say 'I'm totally anti-whip!' because I'm too lazy to start a debate today :D - but I doubt I'll carry one again other than to use as a gate opener and fly-brusher-offer :p:).

[SmallHunter]

I can give the reason why I needed one with Kane when we first started hacking.
He had never hacked before we got him as a 5 yr old and he had a tendency to wander into the middle of the road if something 'shiny' caught his attention. Using leg meant you got the front end over but the back end was still wandering all over the place (he's very long) so a tap with the whip on his bottom got his bum to follow his front this worked because at the same time we were teaching him that a prod with a finger on the bum on the ground meant over he understood that command so that was what we used.
He doesn't have this problem anymore as he now understands that a squeeze of the leg means over too.

[Howengold]

I don't use a whip at all on any of my ponies and they go perfectly well without. My daughters carry them in the showjumping and showing as the ponies go better for them that way, they have never used the whip just carried it. I have no idea why they go better as at home the girls either carry them or don't.


I see why someone will need to give their horse/pony a tap if needed but to crack them in punishment isn't necessary as far as I am concerned. I have always agreed with the phrase 'a bad workman/rider always blames his tools/horse' and using a whip to punish is blaming his horse.

[puzzles]

Thanks guys! :) However I still firmly believe that a whip is a tool and not a lifeline.

x

[SmallHunter]

I don't think any of us are using it as a lifeline though.
I could have taught Kane with just leg but it would have taken far longer and we could have ended up in some pretty hairy situations like when he met a horse and trap for the first time. We had to pull in to let them past I could feel that Kane was nervous and he wanted to start fidgeting so I gave him a light tap on the bottom to remind him to keep his butt over and out of the way.
Kane is the kind of horse who's attention span is very limited if something is shiny or scary his brain switches off and he just completely forgets what he is supposed to be doing the tap brought him back reminded him he has a job to do he can't just loose his head because something is new and exciting.
I don't rely on a whip I ride often enough without one I was taught to ride without one and wasn't allowed to use one until I proved that I could use my seat and leg effectively but there are cases where I would far rather have one with me than not.

[puzzles]

Do you think that horses know why we are using the whip when it is applied? All these different ways of using, and intentions behind, whip use - how can the horse differentiate between, say, a reprimandation for a refusal and a brush to ward away flies, or a tap to "make them listen?

x

[vimto92]

I think it depends how you use your whip and the differences in how you use it in all those situations you listed, :)

[puzzles]

Good point - well a sharp tap on the shoulder on the approach to a jump to encourage him to lift his shoulder could feel the same as a sharp tap on the shoulder to encourage the horse to move over to the other side, or a sharp tap on the shoulder to wake him up ... the only difference is the rider's intention, but to what - if any - extent can horses understand the difference? Do you see what I mean?

x

[ladiva]

My god..so many replies!! So many opinions to take on board!

As a returning novice i read this with interest having been given a crop at all of my lessons so far at one school and not at all at the other. (I dont remember ever being given one in my teens.) For my first four lessons, at the crop giving school, all i did was hold it, being reluctant to use it as of the opinion that i should be able to ride without it!

At my fifth, with the yard owner teaching, he also gave me one and actually explained how to use it (a first and unknown to me ..i mean i am already holding the reigns with both hands and in my novice older state am rather reluctant to let go!!). He said i was only to use it when he told me, (i think three times in total in an hour lesson) until he is happy i know what i am doing. He said it should only be used as a leg aid so a quick tap just behind my leg will suffice.

I felt much happier with this in contrast to being given the crop and told to get on with it!!

So to get to my point i imagine that a crop has its place, on certain horses at certain times, but it is down to the training of the rider to ensure correct and appropriate use.

[Izod1360]

I've been carrying a crop since my 4th or 5th lesson almost 7 years ago. I never ride without one. But I hardly use it. I only use it for back up when Cosmo doesn't listen to my leg when we're jumping. If he is being a brat I'll give him a smack on the bum. Cosmo likes to do the "I'll jump every jump and all of the sudden refuse a jump I've already jumped 5 times" :rolleyes: Usually for Cosmo I hit my chap and that gets him moving.


But there are some horses that I ride that get nervous around the crop, so I won't ride with one. So really for me, it depends on which horse I'm riding; if I'm going to carry/use a crop.