BHS says ok to whip & spur horses?!

[macavity]

Has anyone read YOUR HORSE magazine article (august) on BHS using (allowing) whips and spurs to punish horses in competition?

The NHTEC a BRC riding club asked the BHS to change the rule to ban punishment with whips and spurs - but YOUR HORSE said the BHS think it is OK to PUNISH horses with whips and spurs for non-performance in competition...

they wont allow excessive use (nice of them!!) or allow us to whack a horse by raising ones arm above the shoulder - but will allow a horse (who does not perform) to be punished with violence...stabbed in the ribs or whacked.

Are BHS saying therefore we can ONLY train horses with FORCE?:eek::eek::eek:

I think this is terribly wrong - what century are we living in? Horses are ridden for our pleasure...WE MUST NEVER FORGET THIS - 9 times out of 10 the reason they dont 'perform' is because of pilot error (as in Harry Meade at Burghley jumping his exhausted horse) under the BHS rules if Harry had beaten his horse whilst it was jammed in the fence - for not 'performing' i.e. getting over the jump, he would not be PENALISED! Nor when the horse was lying on the ground recovering - within the rules - he could have whacked it for being non-performance!! He would have been ALLOWED!

BE would not have allowed it I am sure, but how ridiculous that in the UK we dont have a mandatory rule?! for something so serious...as abuse in competition.

sickening but true... Of course Harry wouldnt have done such a thing - but I use this example to highlight the need for change!

What do you all think competitors, mums should we be teaching our kids to pick up whips - violence??? pleasure riders? Natural horsmanship people we are all custodians of horses what do we say do! about this.

;)
if you feel BHS are wrong tell them!

[FastnFurious]

A whip used correctly should NOT be violent. A tap behind the girth with a whip if the horse ignores the leg is much better than continued kicking! But perhaps we should ban riders' legs as they can be used violently!;)

[northern_rachel]

*sigh* can of worms...
I agree with it being used as a form of punishment, obviously not excessively, but a horse must understand that running out at a dangerous fence, putting both it's and the rider's life in danger, is unacceptable.
Don't agree with the Harry Meade incident, though 3 day eventers are under a lot of pressure to finish the course...

[lottie.dot]

Here comes this 'fine line' again...

[macavity]

A whip used correctly should NOT be violent. A tap behind the girth with a whip if the horse ignores the leg is much better than continued kicking! But perhaps we should ban riders' legs as they can be used violently!;)

HI FAST AND FURIOUS - yes I think thats the point legs can do damage when they have spurs on the end - tapping , cease of tapping is acceptable motivation to go!

but when they make a mistake (down to us) no!

yes running out of fences - a problem dealt with in training! surely? not on the competion field - but of course you must take positive action using pressure to redirect the horse toward the jump! This is positive riding not punishment!

punishment is 'after' the event if that simplifies things?!! :D:D

[Gruntfuttock]

If you are using your spurs to stab your horse in the ribs, then it doesn't matter who you are, you're an idiot and a poor rider. However, the vast majority of the people I know who ride in spurs don't do any such thing. Same with whips - instead of a blanket ban on them, perhaps the BHS should be encouraging the organisers of affiliated competitions to clamp down on riders who over-use them.

Assuming that everyone who rides with a whip and /or spurs is training their horse by force is as ignorant as saying that everyone who practices NH is a fluffy ninny who lets their horse walk all over them.

[pedilia]

The BHS code of practice says the use of the whip is permissible to "encourage the horse forwards" and "to reprimand the horse".


Lee Hackett, BHS senior welfare executive, said: "We could not support an outright ban. Whips should be used at an appropriate time with an appropriate amount of force."


The British Equestrian Federation's (BEF) Andrew Finding added: "As long as the whip is used in line with the recommendations of the individual bodies of the BEF I don't see a problem."


This is the article I saw in horse and hound, I think that is slightly different than saying they advocate violence, unless it has been published somewhere else.

[Gruntfuttock]

yes running out of fences - a problem dealt within training not on the competion field - but of course you take action using pressure to redirect the horse toward the jump! This is positive riding not punishment!


Macavity, perhaps you should offer to give Harry Meade a riding lesson. i bet he's never considered using leg pressure to direct a horse towards a jump....

[macavity]

Macavity, perhaps you should offer to give Harry Meade a riding lesson. i bet he's never considered using leg pressure to direct a horse towards a jump....

? der he does use his legs... - Read the thread propley I said IF!!:D

[lottie.dot]

The BHS code of practice says the use of the whip is permissible to "encourage the horse forwards" and "to reprimand the horse".


Lee Hackett, BHS senior welfare executive, said: "We could not support an outright ban. Whips should be used at an appropriate time with an appropriate amount of force."


The British Equestrian Federation's (BEF) Andrew Finding added: "As long as the whip is used in line with the recommendations of the individual bodies of the BEF I don't see a problem."


This is the article I saw in horse and hound, I think that is slightly different than saying they advocate violence, unless it has been published somewhere else.


But they do say ''reprimand''....

[northern_rachel]

Oh, and think how far you'd get educating and schooling a horse without a whip or a pair of spurs. I don't think it'd be that easy.
I for one would be lost without them!

[macavity]

But they do say ''reprimand''....

Thank you! what does this mean?? ITS WOOLLY:D

[Peaches]

But what about situations such as some horses who back off a fence in a sj competition - something they might not do at home in a relaxed atmosphere? A well timed tap on the shoulder, or on the rump with a whip can encourage them forwards which in turns gives them confidence. Likewise some horses respond well to spurs, when a competant rider is using them...OBVIOUSLY they shouldn't be allowed as a form of punishment only, or to beat and jab the horse: perhaps what is more necessary, rather than a ban, is careful policing by event stewards/judges etc, who if they are to see excessive use, should have the right to offer the rider to cease, to retire, or to give up the stick or spurs for the remaining competition (if in collecting ring - if in the comp ring already, they should be stopped).

I've stewarded for my RC at varying events, and whenever we come across behaviour like that (and I have to say, it's rarely at members only events - more often the 'open' events) we are expected to stop it. If I as a younger member stewarding, don't feel comfortable asking them to stop, I report to an older member who is organising, and they instead will take the situation in hand...

ETA: I agree it sounds wooley - but I haven't read the article so not sure which parts are directly quoted, nor am I reading in context so wouldn't like to comment further :o

[Wally]

–noun 1. a severe reproof or rebuke, esp. a formal one by a person in authority.

–verb (used with object) 2. to reprove or rebuke severely, esp. in a formal way.

This is what the dictionary has to say on the word. Not woolly to my way of thinking. Severe leaves no room for the imagination.

[Gruntfuttock]

its rather like the smacking argument with children. A smack, as in a slap with an open hand, on a child's bottom or hand, is a completely different kettle of fish from taking off your belt and beating a child black and blue with the buckle end.

If my horse goes to run out at a SJing comp, and i give her a smack with my whip, and then she sorts herself out and jumps as she has been taught to do, there's nothing wrong with that. If I sit there, in the middle of the ring and wallop her over and over and over again before I even represent her, then that's abuse (and i ought to be eliminated, if the judges are on the ball).

If the governing bodies say that no-one is allowed to use a whip under any circumstances, then it doesnt give the judges any room for personal repsonsibility. what about the rider with a slightly dodgy right leg, who needs the whip to back it up? What about my horse who ALWAYS ducks out to the left, which can be avoided if I simply hold my whip in my left hand?

[S.J.C]

Has anyone read YOUR HORSE magazine article (august) on BHS using (allowing) whips and spurs to punish horses in competition?

The NHTEC a BRC riding club asked the BHS to change the rule to ban punishment with whips and spurs - but YOUR HORSE said the BHS think it is OK to PUNISH horses with whips and spurs for non-performance in competition...

they wont allow excessive use (nice of them!!) or allow us to whack a horse by raising ones arm above the shoulder - but will allow a horse (who does not perform) to be punished with violence...stabbed in the ribs or whacked.

Are BHS saying therefore we can ONLY train horses with FORCE?:eek::eek::eek:

I think this is terribly wrong - what century are we living in? Horses are ridden for our pleasure...WE MUST NEVER FORGET THIS - 9 times out of 10 the reason they dont 'perform' is because of pilot error (as in Harry Meade at Burghley jumping his exhausted horse) under the BHS rules if Harry had beaten his horse whilst it was jammed in the fence - for not 'performing' i.e. getting over the jump, he would not be PENALISED! Nor when the horse was lying on the ground recovering - within the rules - he could have whacked it for being non-performance!! He would have been ALLOWED!

BE would not have allowed it I am sure, but how ridiculous that in the UK we dont have a mandatory rule?! for something so serious...as abuse in competition.

sickening but true... Of course Harry wouldnt have done such a thing - but I use this example to highlight the need for change!

What do you all think competitors, mums should we be teaching our kids to pick up whips - violence??? pleasure riders? Natural horsmanship people we are all custodians of horses what do we say do! about this.

;)
if you feel BHS are wrong tell them!

WTF. I was all for BHS untill I read this! (They gave me a free 'First Horse' infomation pack.)

[plentyoftime]

Hi all, personally don't want to use a whip or spurs.. Would like to be able to build such a partnership with the horse to achieve my aims without the use of whips and spurs. But I guess that would be in a perfect world.

Do the BHS teach how how to use whips and spurs during their training?

Also I wonder if anyone has challenged their approach under the Animal Welfare Act 2006 or for that matter it would be interesting to see if the BHS would openly support prosecution against someone who was guilty of Animal Cruelty.

[eml]

I think everyone should return to the origional points made. The BHS were asked for a blanket ban on the use of stick, this would put them at odds with BE, BSJA etc. A stick used as a 'reprimand' is not a punishment with violence.

It is bizzarre that the BHS are always cited by those claiming it is 'for 'punishment sticks etc'. How many of these people would complain about the BHS extensive series of education with Kelly Marks?

[doorstopper]

I think everyone should return to the origional points made. The BHS were asked for a blanket ban on the use of stick, this would put them at odds with BE, BSJA etc. A stick used as a 'reprimand' is not a punishment with violence.

It is bizzarre that the BHS are always cited by those claiming it is 'for 'punishment sticks etc'. How many of these people would complain about the BHS extensive series of education with Kelly Marks?

I agree. I don't actually think the word 'reprimand' has hugely strong connotations (certainly less so than 'punish'), despite the dictionary definition. I can understand the circumstances in which you might use a stick as a 'reprimand' (although admittedly not spurs). I guess that makes me a horse abuser :rolleyes: ;)

[lynnemh]

i dont agree with using whips or spurs. if you have a good rapport with the horse you shouldnt need to use them. a kind word or a gentle pat works wonders. the horse is all to often expected to do things that he/ she has the sense to know is too much for them to do, or it is causing them discomfort or pain. unfortuneately, they are all too often expected to do more and more, irregardless.

[BlueWicked]

i would be really interested to hear from the people who are saying they ride without whip or spurs as to what discipline/level of riding they do?

specifically; do any of you compete SJ or XC ?

[~*sugarlump*~]

i dont agree with using whips or spurs. if you have a good rapport with the horse you shouldnt need to use them. a kind word or a gentle pat works wonders. the horse is all to often expected to do things that he/ she has the sense to know is too much for them to do, or it is causing them discomfort or pain. unfortuneately, they are all too often expected to do more and more, irregardless.


A whip and spur aren't always used as punishment. W hip is an extention of the leg, and spurs should be used for clarification of the leg aids. Clarification of the leg aids cannot be achieved by a kind word or a pat.

I do reprimand horses with a whip if I see fit. I'm not saying that I beat the heck out of my horse, I'm saying that a whip can be pretty useful when your horse thinks it's fine to mess about. I am not reliant on it however and regularly work without it, and when I do use it it's usually a schooling whip.

[puzzles]

This is why I am so wary & mistrustful of the BHS/a"authorative" horse societies - I have never, ever seen or heard of anyone being so much as spoken to/warned during the 2 years I workd at a major competition EC, as the judges were all pro-force/whip & spur punishment. It just is the done thing, and if you speak up against it then you're "soft" and have a worthless opinion - I have been there. I bet the only reason they haven't banned this sort of unacceptable behaviour is because they'd lose money, or tarnish their image, as it would be cutting out an awful lot of competitors: not disimilar to the smoking ban. So a horse being whipped, hard, is ok so long as it's below the shoulder?! :eek: :mad:

x

[puzzles]

A whip and spur aren't always used as punishment. W hip is an extention of the leg, and spurs should be used for clarification of the leg aids. Clarification of the leg aids cannot be achieved by a kind word or a pat.

I do reprimand horses with a whip if I see fit. I'm not saying that I beat the heck out of my horse, I'm saying that a whip can be pretty useful when your horse thinks it's fine to mess about. I am not reliant on it however and regularly work without it, and when I do use it it's usually a schooling whip.

I absolutely agree with you; but the fact still remains that whips & spurs are used on the basis of causing minor/short-lasting pain or discomfort to the horse to get his/her attention, "wake him up", "make him listen" etc ... if whips & spurs were comfortable & even pleasant, then their useage & effect would be completely different. Riders rely on, manipulate & take advantage of this aspect of whips & spurs to get what they want out of the horse ... that is without making any judgement on whether it is right/wrong etc. Thus I also agree with lynnemh & also would rather never 'have' to use either. Horses evolved & whips were invented; i think that we can live without whips & spurs more than happily with no "need" for them whatsoever! I suppose you could also say that the use of the leg works in a similar

x

[sarahandbronson]

Are BHS saying therefore we can ONLY train horses with FORCE?


No - if you don't want to use a whip, then they're not making you :confused:

I'm pretty sure that it is just a quick tap or poke, as 'whalloping' with a stick or 'booting' with spurs is classed as excessive. Obviously, I'd prefer reprimanding of horses to be banned, but what is one person's version of 'punishment' is another's 'correction'...

Also, I think the thread title is quite insulting... Am I such a cruel person for wearing a pair of spurs to do a dressage test, or for using a schooling whip as a back up to my leg aids? Oh my poor pony, I bet he wishes he belongs to someone else :(

[puzzles]

Also, I think the thread title is quite insulting... Am I such a cruel person for wearing a pair of spurs to do a dressage test, or for using a schooling whip as a back up to my leg aids? Oh my poor pony, I bet he wishes he belongs to someone else :(

Well, each to their own. I suppose there wasn't enough room for "BHS Says Ok To Use Harsh Whips and Spurs as Punishment in Competitions" :p

x

[sarahandbronson]

Well, each to their own. I suppose there wasn't enough room for "BHS Says Ok To Use Harsh Whips and Spurs as Punishment in Competitions" :p

x

I suppose so :p
Something more along the lines of 'BHS condones punishing horses?!' would probably have been better though - general assumptions of that everyone who uses spurs is out to hurt their horse just annoy and upset me, that's all :(

[BlueWicked]

i strongly agree with sugarlump and sarahandbronson -

and id love to hear some answers to my previous question? :rolleyes:

[duchy]

*sigh* can of worms...
I agree with it being used as a form of punishment, obviously not excessively, but a horse must understand that running out at a dangerous fence, putting both it's and the rider's life in danger, is unacceptable.
Don't agree with the Harry Meade incident, though 3 day eventers are under a lot of pressure to finish the course...

I agree, dont see any problem with giving a horse one sharp crack with a whip if they do something really wrong. Example would be if a horse decided to ignore your leg aid and begin reversing on a road- this from me would get a crack or two- reversing on the road is bloody dangerous and I would not tolerate it. Same in a comp environment- backing up is dangerous- could back into another horse, a vehicle or even a young child! If they throw in a dirty stop then again see no problem with giving them a smack to show you mean business and that stopping isnt acceptable.

[duchy]

i dont agree with using whips or spurs. if you have a good rapport with the horse you shouldnt need to use them. a kind word or a gentle pat works wonders. the horse is all to often expected to do things that he/ she has the sense to know is too much for them to do, or it is causing them discomfort or pain. unfortuneately, they are all too often expected to do more and more, irregardless.

do you have your won horses?

[eml]

I don't think a kind word and gentle pat is relevent when horse is reversing rapidly into fast moving traffic as one of ours did.....there is a time and place for everything. Kind words and pats when horse needs reasurance in a non emergency situation are fine.

[macavity]

I don't think a kind word and gentle pat is relevent when horse is reversing rapidly into fast moving traffic as one of ours did.....there is a time and place for everything. Kind words and pats when horse needs reasurance in a non emergency situation are fine.

Hi EML keeping to the point:p I raised this point/issue in 'competition' - 'road riding' is a seperate issue as is a horse backing into spectators, vehicles another horse etc., - this is not 'in the competition re non-performance'. Also in the case of road riding emergencies -the addition of stimuli of whip/leg/voice/spur etc would be used in the moment to preserve life and limb. no-one would argue with safety!

This is Entirely different to us taking a horse into a competition for our pleasure and then hitting/jabbing it for doing the wrong thing (AFTER the event = punishment). Its not fair and its not appropriate pressure.

Wally makes a good point with his observation on the explanation of punishment viz severe.

No one is asking for, or calling, for a blanket ban -that would be ridiculous - someone recently said 'whips should be used like the conductors baton to direct movement and guide tempo':).

I use whips as vibrating taps to aid associative learning so that my horses learn the lightest of cues, seat and leg and hand. I admit I have never used a spur and I would never want to or need to. I have competed without either.
I personally find it abhorrent to imagine using a piece of metal to jab a rib - metal on bone surely bruises and hurts some time after the use? Urghhh:eek: its a personal thing!.

I can see where the arguement for the 'woolleys' to be questioned do you compete;) -the answer will be yes and no I suspect. I do think though this is a dangerous arguement to use (I dont think its valid either) as it seems to indicate that to successfully compete you have to be prepared to use force or to punish horses or to have to use whips and spurs - which is of course a nonsense. Cruelty or abuse is what it is whoever uses it!

BTW Dr Andrew McLean he was also quoted by YOUR HORSE
'competed' inc 3 day eventing for Australia he is the worlds most authoritive figure on behaviour in the trained horse and totally OPPOSED to punishment with whip and spurs (He has called for a ban of the whip in racing - popular guy! - but prepared to speak out! wins my VOTE!) he coaches all over the world and has someof the top SJ/E and dressage riders as pupils - check him out at www.aebc.com.au

Clearly this is a can of worms - but if you were the horse on the recieving end:p - wouldnt you want us to have this debate to REVIEW what we do? POSSIBLY CHANGE OUR WAYS?

The alternative arguement is that we think it is OK to HIT horses when they dont perform in competition. This is what the BHS are saying.

Under current rules - Harry Meade could have at Burghley, whipped his horse whilst it was stranded on the fence and whilst it was on the ground - it wasnt performing was it? -how unbelievable is that - OF COURSE I KNOW HE WOULDNT HAVE DONE IT!!:p: But the FACT IS....he/we could... this is just one reason why I think the rule must be changed.

It is not our god given right to ride horses - it is our cherished privledge and one that should never be abused.....advances in training, understanding behaviour should evoke changes in animal welfare including major changes for horses in training and riding and in competition. as called for by Dr Gerd Heuschmann, Dr McLean,ISES, etc.,

Behaviourists say that punishment de-motivates horses in trialing new behaviours and thus reduces performance as they make negative associations with punishment and the environment - so why are we still harping on about having to use our whips and spurs... because thats what we know and we dont like change.

The BHS should be the voice for all of us - and not dismiss the weight of scientific evidence - just because thats what we have always done. Why therfore is the BHS as a charity supporting equine welfare and training - not prepared to at least examine the matter?

More debate and enlightened thought process goes on here with NR than stonleigh it seems!

Dont feel guilty about using whips and spurs - but use them wisely and with appropriate pressure, as the meerkkats say "simples"!;)

[Painthorse64]

I personally wish that the BHS did not have the monopoly on horse care and riding qualifications in this country as I think some of their methods are questionable and I have therefore decided against studying with them and have devised my own study/research plan with a more open minded view. As for using whips and spurs as punishment - when you look into horse psychology, it appears that they do not understand the concept of punishment as we do anyway.

[horseygal90]

So, when I get a run out at a 3ft 6 log on a XC course, you want me to sit there, pat my horse, whisper "Don't worry Silver, it's alright!" and then turn around, get a nice canter, come back to the same log and *hope* that my nice words and a pat mean that he jumps it the next time properly and I don't end up in hospital or worse?

[Painthorse64]

I agree that whips are useful for guidance and as an aid and for prompting in jumping competitions, and I always feel safer if I carry a whip whilst riding on the roads, but to whip a horse as punishment/reprimand after the event because it has ruined your chances of winning a jumping competition is probably beyond the comprehension of the horse and is more likely the rider taking out her/his frustration on the horse. I can't comment on spurs because I have never used them and don't wish to. I was once on a riding lesson in which we were jumping. One woman's horse refused the jump so the next time she whacked him hard a few times with the whip as she turned him away from the jump to try again and whipped him again as he approached it, again he refused, she wacked him again, and again he refused and I'll never forget the look on the poor horses face (he looked scared and confused), he was obviously lacking in confidence, he wasn't being disobedient, this happened about 5 more times before the horse eventually jumped. Then the same thing happened to me on the horse I was riding, he refused, but I did not hit him with the whip at all, I tried to stop him running out with my leg and spoke to encourage him and at the 5th attempt he also jumped without me using the whip at all.

[palmerlover52]

I would like to see the full article before posting....it rather strikes me the OP has very strong views and has merely picked out the best bit of the article to support their view.

[diamonddogs]

I personally wouldn't know how to use spurs. I've never worn them in my life and at the age of 51 I'm unlikely to now. Just my personal feeling on the subject, but used properly by an experienced person in moderation I suppose they're OK.

The whip on the other hand is a different matter. I carry one, mainly because I feel odd without it, but would only use is for a quick smack where necessary. And never harder than I could bear on my own leg (yes, I've smacked myself a few times to test the force required, and got some very odd looks as well!) - a couple of people have used the term "crack" which I understand to be the noise rather than level of pain inflicted.

I'm tallking of normal riding situations here though, not emergency situations where a couple of painful stripes across the flank is better than a dead horse or rider.

[MrKia+Me]

I have to say to those who are able to get their horses to be perfect without reprimand at all be it a boot in the ribs, a smack with a stick or a small prod with spurs, where did you get that manual??? I want a copy;)

I all fairness I dont imagine the BHS is goading or prompting people to batter their horses and boot them with spurs they are a governing body after all.:rolleyes: not that this makes them perfect but I cant see them actually saying to people that they condone battering a horse with a whip/spurs.

As for the use of theise aids if they are used correctly their is no problem with them. I would rather give my horse a sharp smak with a stick to remind him of his job than boot him continually in the ribs. With the the spurs I use them for precise aids in flatwork and I dont see anything wrong with them.

If you use any aid wrong you can cause damages even booting a horse can cause mental or physical damage.

Some people should think before they condone a method or aid. You can only condone something if you have NEVER used this in any shape of form. A stick is a stick after all.

Nikki xxxx

[rtk]

Sorry dont agree with a lot of you.

I very rarely carry a whip and have never used spurs but that doesn't mean I cant see the value of them in certain circumstances. Sometimes you need an instant response, luckily my oldie will respond to a good boot with my leg (due to him shooting forward when you put leg on) but not all horses are the same.

But for the "good boot" or slap with a stick if I had been carrying one, me and the old git would have ended up in a deep drainage ditch last week when he started to prat about over shutting a gate.

I dont agree with using them for punishment or ever excessively but do think they have their uses.

I would certainly ban any use that marked the horse, i.e. spur or whip marks. Its possible to give a horse a reminder without it being hard enough to actually damage them.

[lynnemh]

in response to the people who have highlighed my post: yes , i am an owner- not sure what that has to do with it tho? do i compete? no, i am totally not interested, on a personal level. i am simply stating my own views on the subject; it is up to each individual to do what is right , according to thier own conscience, (within reason- which i believe is the point of this discussion) i am saying that you should have done enough ground work and preparation to not need to use whips and spurs. you should have a parnership with your horse whereby he wants to please you and trusts in your decisions. therefore if he (or she) is baulking or sluggish it is really down to you the rider. if he is not happy that you are confident, or fully concentrating or stressed out for whatever reason, then he is going to think that something is not right and will react accordingly, for instance, if you have competition nerves for any reason or your attention shifts even slightly, then he is going to interpret it as maybe there is a reason to baulk or nap. also it is a common fact that a horse can totally ignore all sorts of scary things at home, but when away the same thing can be very scary indeed, in thier mind. the same applies to whatever competition you are at; different setting, different percieved threat, in thier mind. so it is up to the rider to build the trust and rapport needed to overcome this.. i am not saying that it is wrong to use a reinforcing flick of a whip to reinforce a leg aid, or even to get attention, if thats what works for you. what i am saying is that in my experience (getting on for 40 years worth) vocal aids are actually just as effective in normal circumstances (for me and my horses, more so) than using whips or spurs. i think it must come down to what your own personal priorities are; i personally wouldnt want to win something at the cost of inflicting pain or discomfort onto my partner/ friend. and to the person who said that she would use a whip if horse backing up in traffic; that is a totally different situation, if life is at risk. but as a rider /driver i tend to be looking way ahead, and would hopefully have put us in a situation whereby we would have time to prepare to deal with the issue, whatever it was, in as safe a way as possible.

[~*sugarlump*~]

Yes but lynnemh, you seem to be thinking that spurs and whips are just used to punishing a horse when what they are meant to be used for is clarification. Think about it, the horse is going to better understand the leg aids when spurs are used than when the whole foot is used. The allow the rider to be more precise. I'm not saying that I think everyone should ride with spurs, as I believe that leg stability is needed before you even think about using them. The Grand Prix dressage riders are not using their spurs in a cruel manner at all, the are using them so the horse can easily understand what the rider is asking them to do. I myself use impulse spurs (only in walk, as I do not trust my legs in rising trot yet) in order to teach my pony to move away from pressure, and the difference between behind the girth and on the girth. I certainly do not "boot" my pony in the ribs with them, I use them as kindly as I can, and he is making alot of progress with them. As I am using mine in a remedial manner I am going to take them off when I am confident that he knows what I'm asking for.

[MrKia+Me]

How does a lungewhip fit in with your views then lynemh??

Or a carrot stick, or a wipwop??? They all serve the same purpose, a prompt for the horse to move out/over.payattention to aids etc the list goes on.

Anytype of stick is just that a stick to use as an aid and the name doesnt change that it is the person using it that determines how it is used.

I honestly do not believe that groundwork solves everything I honestly dont and just ground work with a rope unless you swinging the other end is just you holding on to a horse head. Voice commands are a great thing but a horse does not understand us completely the understand the command as opposed to an action. So without the use of any stick or swinging the end of a rope etc how do you teach a horse what command means what???

Just clarifying the point that stick and spurs ar an AID and it is the people using them that make them cruel. Villyfying an item of tack is pointless and TBH stupid. It has no concious though of its own.;)

Nikki xxxx

[lynnemh]

in reply, i think you have missed a bit out of my last thread- i clearly state that i am not talking about a reinforcing flick of the whip, ie to reinforce a leg aid. the whole point of maccavity's original post is about what is excessive use of whip or spurs, not whether it is uncorrect to use them at all. and i agree that it is probably worse to kick and bash with your heels, than to use a spur gently.

[xloopylozzax]

i strongly agree with sugarlump and sarahandbronson -

and id love to hear some answers to my previous question? :rolleyes:
simple answer- many on here dont. or atleast not over 2'6 unaff courses...
i dont compete at jumping yet, but i am planning to this winter. atm i dont carry a whip simply because i am only jumping 2' odd and i forget to pick my stick up before i start and cba going back to get it. when i get to any decent level (and deffo when im competing) i will carry one, to prevent stupid arguments- that run out can ruin your chance of been placed, which is the reason your there. i am all for having a good time, but you only compete if you have a chance to win IMO. if you didnt think you had a chance you wouldnt go.

So, when I get a run out at a 3ft 6 log on a XC course, you want me to sit there, pat my horse, whisper "Don't worry Silver, it's alright!" and then turn around, get a nice canter, come back to the same log and *hope* that my nice words and a pat mean that he jumps it the next time properly and I don't end up in hospital or worse?

cant add anything, just agreed and thought it worthy of quoting :D

How does a lungewhip fit in with your views then lynemh??

Or a carrot stick, or a wipwop??? They all serve the same purpose, a prompt for the horse to move out/over.payattention to aids etc the list goes on.

Anytype of stick is just that a stick to use as an aid and the name doesnt change that it is the person using it that determines how it is used.

I honestly do not believe that groundwork solves everything I honestly dont and just ground work with a rope unless you swinging the other end is just you holding on to a horse head. Voice commands are a great thing but a horse does not understand us completely the understand the command as opposed to an action. So without the use of any stick or swinging the end of a rope etc how do you teach a horse what command means what???

Just clarifying the point that stick and spurs ar an AID and it is the people using them that make them cruel. Villyfying an item of tack is pointless and TBH stupid. It has no concious though of its own.;)

Nikki xxxx

carrot sticks and wip-wops are completely different ;)
in all seriousness i would like an answer to this aswell, its never cleared up on NH threads...

[lynnemh]

mr kia and me: i think you are taking my posts out of context. however, ie lungewhip; a lungewhip is mainly used as a flick in the air behind the horse, to keep it moving forward. (you can just as easliy make a wheesh sound out of your mouth) i agree that whip and spurs are only as cruel as the person using them. the point of discussion was originally excessive use. and are you saying i am stupid? at least i accurately read the posts i comment on! i clearly state that i am talking about excessive use, and i have not vilified anything or anyone- it is your choice what you do, i am just saying that it is possible for me and others to not use whips or spurs, and i strongly prefer not to.

[Yann]

carrot sticks and wip-wops are completely different
in all seriousness i would like an answer to this aswell, its never cleared up on NH threads...

Carrot stick - same as a whip, used (correctly) for same thing and also to apply visual cues and pressure. Can be equally be abused and used to inflict pain or punishment.

Wipwop - If we're talking the bespoke IH ones they're too light and thick to inflict anything more than mild annoyance, it simply isn't possible to hurt a horse with one. Their main purpose is to apply visual pressure, which is why they're bright white.

[MrKia+Me]

mr kia and me: i think you are taking my posts out of context. however, ie lungewhip; a lungewhip is mainly used as a flick in the air behind the horse, to keep it moving forward. (you can just as easliy make a wheesh sound out of your mouth) i agree that whip and spurs are only as cruel as the person using them. the point of discussion was originally excessive use. and are you saying i am stupid? at least i accurately read the posts i comment on! i clearly state that i am talking about excessive use, and i have not vilified anything or anyone- it is your choice what you do, i am just saying that it is possible for me and others to not use whips or spurs, and i strongly prefer not to.

Read my posts then!!!:rolleyes:

I only used your name in the 1st sentence not the whole thing. Did I state on my post that you were stupid??? No I didnt so before you accuse anyone of misreading your posts maybe you could follow your own advice. I can state how you take my posts but if I was calling you stupid your name and the word stupid would be in the same sentence.

Yann I was merely pointing out that all are aids:) but wanted clarification on what people though was different between them and a schooling/linging/normal stick. I use my lunging stick as a visual and noise aid as he doesnt get hit with it its to make him move out/forward but just wanted to get what the people who hate sticks thoughts about how they use their aids and explain what they did without using any sticks/similar aids.

Nikki xxx:)

[~*sugarlump*~]

specifically; do any of you compete SJ or XC ?

Oh I can actually say that I do now :D (sorry am just abit excited that I'm getting back on the circuit now :)) My aim is to get placed in a 3ft class by next summer, but am off to do a 2ft3 and 2ft 6 class next sunday, which will be my first time out on my lad. If it goes well then might take him into the 2ft9 :)
I wouldn't go into the ring without my whip. Even if I don't use it, I usually seem to ride better when I have one. No idea why :p

[L34NN3]

I for one would rather see a rider using whips and spurs than booting a horse in the ribs. Try it on yourself - punch yourself in the ribs and then poke yourself in the ribs (not with the same force of the punch of course) and you will find that you feel the poke equally as well but it doesn't hurt as much. Whips and spurs allow you to use less pressure not more. The allow you to give a small aid and concentrate on getting over fences rather than booting a horse that is playing up (and some horses do play up when at competitions)

I fully do not agree with excessive use though!!

Just a little clarification of this quote - not singling you out FnF :)

A whip used correctly should NOT be violent. A tap behind the girth with a whip if the horse ignores the leg is much better than continued kicking!

I agree with you fully but the BHS does not permit the use of the whip on the flanks. The shoulder or rump is fine but the flanks (behind the girth) are acknowledged as being extremely sensitive so use here is banned.

Another point is that one person may see using a whip as encouragement of forward movement yet another may see it as punishment for not moving forwards... Which is correct?

[Cortrasna]

IMO the only place for whips and spurs is a tarts bedroom:D

[L34NN3]

I'm still interested to know if anyone who doesn't use whips and spurs competes at all. And if so what heights/level?

[Alejandra]

QR
I think many people don't understand the correct use of the whip/spurs according to the BHS and classical riding, as is evident by some of the more hysterical posts on this thread.
If you think that spurs are designed to 'stab' a horse in the ribs, then you are an idiot with no knowledge of horse training methods from Xenophon to the modern day.
Equally, if you think that 750kg of recalcitrant, hormonally charged horse can be engaged in a rational discussion about your perceived psychological contract with it, or lured with the promise of a 'kind word and a pat' when it has decided to nap, you are up a gum tree. :D
I carry a whip, and wear spurs. I see them as a REFINEMENT of the aids, rather than an ESCALATION, or, as someone ridiculously suggested, a means of inflicting damage (why would I want to do that, anyway?).

[Bronya]

I'm afraid the first comment that came to mind was 'get a grip'. It is entirely possible to use the whip immediately after or during bad behaviour, so the horse isn't hurt more than a slight sting but does understand it's wrong. Whether as a reprimand or otherwise, ALL authorities would have issue with either whip or spurs used such that they draw blood, or the whip used repeatedly for no apparent reason - so what's the problem?

Whips and spurs are used effectively, without problems, by the majority of riders who use them. So why should the BHS ban them?

[Gruntfuttock]

Ooh, Bronya, you evil horse abuser, you !

[BlueWicked]

Hi EML keeping to the point:p I raised this point/issue in 'competition' - 'road riding' is a seperate issue as is a horse backing into spectators, vehicles another horse etc., - this is not 'in the competition re non-performance'. Also in the case of road riding emergencies -the addition of stimuli of whip/leg/voice/spur etc would be used in the moment to preserve life and limb. no-one would argue with safety!

This is Entirely different to us taking a horse into a competition for our pleasure and then hitting/jabbing it for doing the wrong thing (AFTER the event = punishment). Its not fair and its not appropriate pressure.
.

i disagree - this is exactly when I use my whip at a xc comp - to prevent me and the horse having a stop or fall! And yes, if I feel my horse backing off I might well begin with a tap on the shoulder, but if he doesnt respond to that then he would get a smack. If he did stop or run out then he would also get a well-timed smack!


....i am saying that you should have done enough ground work and preparation to not need to use whips and spurs. you should have a parnership with your horse whereby he wants to please you and trusts in your decisions. therefore if he (or she) is baulking or sluggish it is really down to you the rider..

Im sorry but this is very patronising and when you dont ride in certain disciplines yourself I dont think you should be making judgments. What you say is a lovely theory, but when you are sitting on 1/2 a tonne of flight animal, that is about to back off a fixed fence and possibly cause injury to itself or you then then you might change your mind:rolleyes:

simple answer- many on here dont. or atleast not over 2'6 unaff courses...
i dont compete at jumping yet, but i am planning to this winter. atm i dont carry a whip simply because i am only jumping 2' odd and i forget to pick my stick up before i start and cba going back to get it. when i get to any decent level (and deffo when im competing) i will carry one, to prevent stupid arguments- that run out can ruin your chance of been placed, which is the reason your there. i am all for having a good time, but you only compete if you have a chance to win IMO. if you didnt think you had a chance you wouldnt go.
...

actually LL, ask anyone who knows me and they will tell you i am one of the most competetive people you will ever meet:o HOWEVER i disagree with what you've said here - i would never use my whip out of competetiveness! I only ever use my whip when SJ, XC or JX to keep us both safe!!!

When I am competing I have 3 priorities.

1. to keep myself safe
2. to keep my horse safe (lol, sometimes interchangable with 1;) )
3. to get the best placing I can


Oh I can actually say that I do now :D (sorry am just abit excited that I'm getting back on the circuit now :)) My aim is to get placed in a 3ft class by next summer, but am off to do a 2ft3 and 2ft 6 class next sunday, which will be my first time out on my lad. If it goes well then might take him into the 2ft9 :)
I wouldn't go into the ring without my whip. Even if I don't use it, I usually seem to ride better when I have one. No idea why :p

hee hee! Good on you!:D

[vimto92]

A horseman should know no fear, nor anger.

[puzzles]

I don't think a kind word and gentle pat is relevent when horse is reversing rapidly into fast moving traffic as one of ours did.....there is a time and place for everything. Kind words and pats when horse needs reasurance in a non emergency situation are fine.

Really? So in a potentially dangerous situation, the best option is to hit the horse, which could shock or confuse it, or cause it pain which thus discourages thinking & instead encourages the horse simply to react instinctively, such as by spooking or walking backwards, sideways etc. A few calming words and comforting hand on the neck, in my eyes, is more likely to encourage a horse to comply with your wishes & remain calm than anything a whip or spur could ever achieve.

Hi EML keeping to the point:p I raised this point/issue in 'competition' - 'road riding' is a seperate issue as is a horse backing into spectators, vehicles another horse etc., - this is not 'in the competition re non-performance'. Also in the case of road riding emergencies -the addition of stimuli of whip/leg/voice/spur etc would be used in the moment to preserve life and limb. no-one would argue with safety!

This is Entirely different to us taking a horse into a competition for our pleasure and then hitting/jabbing it for doing the wrong thing (AFTER the event = punishment). Its not fair and its not appropriate pressure.

Wally makes a good point with his observation on the explanation of punishment viz severe.

No one is asking for, or calling, for a blanket ban -that would be ridiculous - someone recently said 'whips should be used like the conductors baton to direct movement and guide tempo':).

I use whips as vibrating taps to aid associative learning so that my horses learn the lightest of cues, seat and leg and hand. I admit I have never used a spur and I would never want to or need to. I have competed without either.
I personally find it abhorrent to imagine using a piece of metal to jab a rib - metal on bone surely bruises and hurts some time after the use? Urghhh:eek: its a personal thing!.

I can see where the arguement for the 'woolleys' to be questioned do you compete;) -the answer will be yes and no I suspect. I do think though this is a dangerous arguement to use (I dont think its valid either) as it seems to indicate that to successfully compete you have to be prepared to use force or to punish horses or to have to use whips and spurs - which is of course a nonsense. Cruelty or abuse is what it is whoever uses it!

BTW Dr Andrew McLean he was also quoted by YOUR HORSE
'competed' inc 3 day eventing for Australia he is the worlds most authoritive figure on behaviour in the trained horse and totally OPPOSED to punishment with whip and spurs (He has called for a ban of the whip in racing - popular guy! - but prepared to speak out! wins my VOTE!) he coaches all over the world and has someof the top SJ/E and dressage riders as pupils - check him out at www.aebc.com.au

Clearly this is a can of worms - but if you were the horse on the recieving end:p - wouldnt you want us to have this debate to REVIEW what we do? POSSIBLY CHANGE OUR WAYS?

The alternative arguement is that we think it is OK to HIT horses when they dont perform in competition. This is what the BHS are saying.

Under current rules - Harry Meade could have at Burghley, whipped his horse whilst it was stranded on the fence and whilst it was on the ground - it wasnt performing was it? -how unbelievable is that - OF COURSE I KNOW HE WOULDNT HAVE DONE IT!!:p: But the FACT IS....he/we could... this is just one reason why I think the rule must be changed.

It is not our god given right to ride horses - it is our cherished privledge and one that should never be abused.....advances in training, understanding behaviour should evoke changes in animal welfare including major changes for horses in training and riding and in competition. as called for by Dr Gerd Heuschmann, Dr McLean,ISES, etc.,

Behaviourists say that punishment de-motivates horses in trialing new behaviours and thus reduces performance as they make negative associations with punishment and the environment - so why are we still harping on about having to use our whips and spurs... because thats what we know and we dont like change.

The BHS should be the voice for all of us - and not dismiss the weight of scientific evidence - just because thats what we have always done. Why therfore is the BHS as a charity supporting equine welfare and training - not prepared to at least examine the matter?

More debate and enlightened thought process goes on here with NR than stonleigh it seems!

Dont feel guilty about using whips and spurs - but use them wisely and with appropriate pressure, as the meerkkats say "simples"!;)

Excellent points, well said!

I personally wish that the BHS did not have the monopoly on horse care and riding qualifications in this country as I think some of their methods are questionable and I have therefore decided against studying with them and have devised my own study/research plan with a more open minded view. As for using whips and spurs as punishment - when you look into horse psychology, it appears that they do not understand the concept of punishment as we do anyway.

Absolutely - hence my point earlier about mistrusting the BHS due to their failure to maintain high standards of riding and horse management. The best RS and RI I ever had failed BHS approval repeatedly, yet I learned so much & gained a lot of confidence. No BHS RI since has ever satiated my hunger to learn & seriously dented my confidence. I have now given up having riding lessons because I cannot find a RS that shares the same values, pinciples & attitude towards horses & riding as I.

As for the part in bold - I absolutely agree with this. As someone else has already mentioned, I think that people want spurs & whips to be the best & msot effective method, simply because that is whbat they have al;ways done & it is easiest. People don't like the insecurity of having the beliefs & methods that they have based their horsey lives on to be questioned - to find out that you may have been wrong, or misled, is never desirable. However I think it is extremely inportant to find the truth of how & why horses really think & behave the way they do, and to accept that we may have to start doing things different from the accepted norm; that is, with the use of whips, spurs & the "get up & put up" no-nonsense attitude.

x

[rtk]

Really? So in a potentially dangerous situation, the best option is to hit the horse, which could shock or confuse it, or cause it pain which thus discourages thinking & instead encourages the horse simply to react instinctively, such as by spooking or walking backwards, sideways etc. A few calming words and comforting hand on the neck, in my eyes, is more likely to encourage a horse to comply with your wishes & remain calm than anything a whip or spur could ever achieve.



Excellent points, well said!



Absolutely - hence my point earlier about mistrusting the BHS due to their failure to maintain high standards of riding and horse management. The best RS and RI I ever had failed BHS approval repeatedly, yet I learned so much & gained a lot of confidence. No BHS RI since has ever satiated my hunger to learn & seriously dented my confidence. I have now given up having riding lessons because I cannot find a RS that shares the same values, pinciples & attitude towards horses & riding as I.

As for the part in bold - I absolutely agree with this. As someone else has already mentioned, I think that people want spurs & whips to be the best & msot effective method, simply because that is whbat they have al;ways done & it is easiest. People don't like the insecurity of having the beliefs & methods that they have based their horsey lives on to be questioned - to find out that you may have been wrong, or misled, is never desirable. However I think it is extremely inportant to find the truth of how & why horses really think & behave the way they do, and to accept that we may have to start doing things different from the accepted norm; that is, with the use of whips, spurs & the "get up & put up" no-nonsense attitude.

x


What absolute rubbish

The BHS has probably done more for horse welfare in the country than any of the natural horsemanship schools of thought. Just think how far we have come, certainly in the 45 years I have been involved with horses.

And no I'm not anti NH methods, just anti those practitioners who think they are right and everyone else is wrong.

Its threads like these that keep me well away from the NH section of this forum

No method is wrong if it works and does not cause the horse suffering. I douubt if anyone one here would advocate beating an animal.

[puzzles]

What absolute rubbish

The BHS has probably done more for horse welfare in the country than any of the natural horsemanship schools of thought. Just think how far we have come, certainly in the 45 years I have been involved with horses.

And no I'm not anti NH methods, just anti those practitioners who think they are right and everyone else is wrong.

Its threads like these that keep me well away from the NH section of this forum

No method is wrong if it works and does not cause the horse suffering. I douubt if anyone one here would advocate beating an animal.

Without blabbing irrelevantly on about NH ;) I am not claiming in any way that the BHS are utterly useless & have not done any good to the horse world, just that several of their primary methods, principles & establishments have either let me down or just not worked for me. I am sure that I am not alone! The BHS cannot be the be-all and end-all, that would be far too narrow-minded. As you say, using a more holistic approach and taking what works best from lots of different sources, however, does prove more effective for moi. :)

x

[~*sugarlump*~]

when you look into horse psychology, it appears that they do not understand the concept of punishment as we do anyway.


I'm sorry but I don't really agree with this. They may not understand the ideea that they are being punished because they have done something that we don't want them to do, but they do understand that certain behaviours will cause a lack of fitness. If every time they do something "wrong" they get a negative response then they will learn soon enough not to do it as they will want to ensure they have an optimum fitness. It may even get to the point where not to perform a certain behaviour is innate. So while they may not understand our concept of punishment, the point does actually get across.


Why do all the NH people think that spurs and whips are used to beat the s**t out of horses. You have to understand a gadget properly before you put it down.

[Pale Moon]

its rather like the smacking argument with children. A smack, as in a slap with an open hand, on a child's bottom or hand, is a completely different kettle of fish from taking off your belt and beating a child black and blue with the buckle end.

If my horse goes to run out at a SJing comp, and i give her a smack with my whip, and then she sorts herself out and jumps as she has been taught to do, there's nothing wrong with that. If I sit there, in the middle of the ring and wallop her over and over and over again before I even represent her, then that's abuse (and i ought to be eliminated, if the judges are on the ball).

If the governing bodies say that no-one is allowed to use a whip under any circumstances, then it doesnt give the judges any room for personal repsonsibility. what about the rider with a slightly dodgy right leg, who needs the whip to back it up? What about my horse who ALWAYS ducks out to the left, which can be avoided if I simply hold my whip in my left hand?

Brilliantly and succinctly put, Gruntfuttock. :)

[Pale Moon]

i dont agree with using whips or spurs. if you have a good rapport with the horse you shouldnt need to use them. a kind word or a gentle pat works wonders. the horse is all to often expected to do things that he/ she has the sense to know is too much for them to do, or it is causing them discomfort or pain. unfortuneately, they are all too often expected to do more and more, irregardless.

Really??? You must come and ride my horse then, without holding a whip!:D

I very rarely have to use it, but he knows with absolute certainty if I don't carry one, and tries to take the p**s big time.

[puzzles]

I'm sorry but I don't really agree with this. They may not understand the ideea that they are being punished because they have done something that we don't want them to do, but they do understand that certain behaviours will cause a lack of fitness. If every time they do something "wrong" they get a negative response then they will learn soon enough not to do it as they will want to ensure they have an optimum fitness. It may even get to the point where not to perform a certain behaviour is innate. So while they may not understand our concept of punishment, the point does actually get across.


Why do all the NH people think that spurs and whips are used to beat the s**t out of horses. You have to understand a gadget properly before you put it down.

It is argued that they do not associate the "punishment" with the behaviour. Instead, they just think that their rider has caused them pain with no reason. Also, this punishment is often mis-timed and given in anger or frustration. Punishment does not teach the horse how the rider wants him/her to behave, it only represses behaviour & demotivates the horse. It discourages a harmonious, trusting relationship with the rider and also dents the horse's confidence if he/she is not given enough positive repsonses from the rider. People can degrade this mindset as much as they like, but is entirely possible that it is true. Whips can have a valuable place when used wisely and minimally, but they don't have to! They aren't the be-all and end-all. If a rider can't ride without having to use or carry a whip, then that suggests some sort of mis-training with a whip at some point during the horse's life because, to me, they shouldn't develop in their training so that they are dependent on one. I don't think they should be banned, but I personally am particularly selective about what I see as acceptable & unacceptable uses olf the whip, and indeed spurs too.

x

[BlueWicked]

Really? So in a potentially dangerous situation, the best option is to hit the horse, which could shock or confuse it, or cause it pain which thus discourages thinking & instead encourages the horse simply to react instinctively, such as by spooking or walking backwards, sideways etc. A few calming words and comforting hand on the neck, in my eyes, is more likely to encourage a horse to comply with your wishes & remain calm than anything a whip or spur could ever achieve.
x

a smack does not shock or confuse my horse. it says I am the leader and do as you are told. i have seriously never heard such fluffy rubbish in all my born days:rolleyes: perhaps spending some time living with a herd would be an interesting exercise for all the people who think along these lines... and try telling the herd leader that instead of nipping/biting/kicking/barging the others to ascert dominanace and sometimes move the herd out of the way of danger, that a gentle nuzzle and discussion would suffice;):rolleyes:

What absolute rubbish

The BHS has probably done more for horse welfare in the country than any of the natural horsemanship schools of thought. Just think how far we have come, certainly in the 45 years I have been involved with horses.

And no I'm not anti NH methods, just anti those practitioners who think they are right and everyone else is wrong.

Its threads like these that keep me well away from the NH section of this forum

No method is wrong if it works and does not cause the horse suffering. I douubt if anyone one here would advocate beating an animal.

here here :)

[L34NN3]

Apparently they do not associate the "punishment" with the behaviour. Instead, they just think that their rider has caused them pain with no reason.

I disagree with this. If a horse has been taught through positive reinforcement what the correct behaviour is, and is praised each time the correct behaviour is dispayed, it will become more frequent. If a behaviour is asked for but not given then negative reinforcment can be used to stop this behaviour. When the correct behaviour is displayed then praise can then be resumed. We can teach the horse that it is easier to do it the way we want than to do what they want :)

[~*sugarlump*~]

a smack does not shock or confuse my horse. it says I am the leader and do as you are told. i have seriously never heard such fluffy rubbish in all my born days:rolleyes: perhaps spending some time living with a herd would be an interesting exercise for all the people who think along these lines... and try telling the herd leader that instead of nipping/biting/kicking/barging the others to ascert dominanace and sometimes move the herd out of the way of danger, that a gentle nuzzle and discussion would suffice;):rolleyes:


Ditto.
A small smack with a crop is nothing compared to what some wild (or domestic for that matter) horses do to establish control.
I see it that abit of dominance is needed in order to establish a safe envoronment for both parties. In the wild and in the school. TBH believeing that all problems can be solved by just a a pat and a few nice words is wishful thinking.

[sarahandbronson]

Under current rules - Harry Meade could have at Burghley, whipped his horse whilst it was stranded on the fence and whilst it was on the ground - it wasnt performing was it? -how unbelievable is that - OF COURSE I KNOW HE WOULDNT HAVE DONE IT!!:p: But the FACT IS....he/we could... this is just one reason why I think the rule must be changed.


Read a BE rulebook - such action would have been classed as excessive.
Therefore, not allowed.

Also, Matthew Wright left spur marks on his horse at Osberton after the dressage phase. He was eliminated and given a yellow card for this offence, which I believe could lead to him being suspended (?) an action which I think should be introduced at the lower levels of affiliated competitions (BE, BD, BSJA etc.) to promote better riding and to encourage only using artificial aids in the correct manner.

[sarahandbronson]

i am saying that you should have done enough ground work and preparation to not need to use whips and spurs. you should have a parnership with your horse whereby he wants to please you and trusts in your decisions. therefore if he (or she) is baulking or sluggish it is really down to you the rider.


Four years of trying without spurs, higest dressage mark was 62%, Bronson was lazy, backed off and fell in and out during his transitions. A lot of marks were more around 52%.
First test with spurs, 68.6%. After that he has continues to score in the sixties. He feels so much better with that little bit more 'go' in him, I can ride in a softer and more relaxed way (with a better position and balance) and therefore surely it is better for him? I only ride him in spurs for dressage tests and the odd schooling session as I don't want him to rely on them. They have rubber balls on the ends, I have a pretty secure lower leg, and have never left a mark on him.

Is it not possible to have a partnership with a horse and for them still to be lazy :confused: To say that Bronson doesn't trust me is very insulting - to cross country school over fences up to BE novice (without a whip or spurs, I don't use them when jumping, usually carry a whip, but hardly ever need to use it) I'd say you need to have a little faith in your horse, and vica versa :confused:

[eml]

When I teach (especially kids) I tell them to whisper (ie squeeze) talk louder (nudge) and then shout (tap with crop). I remove crops from those who use them incorrectly

I think this applies at all levels of riding.

Oh and I use spurs ( only allow very good clients to) to refine my aids.

Is this what you mean as 'BHS says OK to whip and spur horses' ??

[skips and soda]

Four years of trying without spurs, higest dressage mark was 62%, Bronson was lazy, backed off and fell in and out during his transitions. A lot of marks were more around 52%.
First test with spurs, 68.6%. After that he has continues to score in the sixties. He feels so much better with that little bit more 'go' in him, I can ride in a softer and more relaxed way (with a better position and balance) and therefore surely it is better for him? I only ride him in spurs for dressage tests and the odd schooling session as I don't want him to rely on them. They have rubber balls on the ends, I have a pretty secure lower leg, and have never left a mark on him.

Is it not possible to have a partnership with a horse and for them still to be lazy :confused: To say that Bronson doesn't trust me is very insulting - to cross country school over fences up to BE novice (without a whip or spurs, I don't use them when jumping, usually carry a whip, but hardly ever need to use it) I'd say you need to have a little faith in your horse, and vica versa :confused:

Agree with this.

I don't agree with either whip or spurs used in an abusive manner (I've seen people at all levels beasting their horses with whips and spurs, that's appalling), as a refinement/gentle reminder/correction they are an entirely different thing.

I ride both my boys holding a whip, I ride Soda in spurs for working in the arena. He goes a million times better with them, and I suspect it is much more comfortable for him because I am not constantly having to kick him on and only need a gentle nudge. His dressage scores since I've worn them are, like sarahandbronson's, a testament to the fact that he goes much better when I'm wearing them!

I use spurs with a rounded tip and have also never ever left a mark on him. He can still be ridden perfectly well without spurs, I hack him, XC him (usually, unless he's backing off fences) and hunt him without spurs. I also occasionally school him without them. They've not done any damage but they have helped us with our schooling and improved our overall work.

[posie]

When I teach (especially kids) I tell them to whisper (ie squeeze) talk louder (nudge) and then shout (tap with crop). I remove crops from those who use them incorrectly

I think this applies at all levels of riding.

Oh and I use spurs ( only allow very good clients to) to refine my aids.


this is exactly how i use my aids - although my instructor says:
ask, tell, demand ;)

if i hadn't used the whip i'd be a sweating red exhausted lump and my horse would still not be working off the leg - as it is i can now generally only ask - with the occasional tell - becuase i've backed up my aids with the odd demand/whip so she dosen't ignore me.

i'll also use whip and/or spurs if a horse is backing off a big solid fence - sorry - but i will ride into one of them like my life depends on it - cos it does really!