Paedophiles and the horse world.

[flinglebunt]

Thought I would start this thread after reading a comment by Woisit in the Hi Viz hard Hats and the law thread.

Wotsit said that we may soon need government approval to ferry you freinds kids to riding lessons. Sadly this may well be true as a new law and whole new government department is put into place soon. I you fail to register and give your freinds kids a lift you will be on the receiving end of a fine of up to 5000 pounds.

It would appear that they are putting together a database that will allow anyone to phone a hotline and any #suspicians# they have will go against your name without you knowledge. In short, like the days of Stalins Soviet Union or the Maoist revolution in China anyone will be able to contact the authorities and ruin your life.

(Hold on moderator, don't delete this yet)

This morning I listened to some silly bitch on the tv going on about one in four men abuse kids and I am afraid that will be the mentality that will be given control of this new department.

I have been around horses since I was put on a pony just five years old in 1958. Due to old injuries I do not ride much these days but I still look after an old boy who has as many aches and pains as I do. I enjoy being at the yard, which is also a riding school that specialises in children, and I love it when the kids are off school.

Are we about to see another wave of hysteria over child abusers? Are we now going to see a situation where me and my other half must leave a kid to walk back to the village on their own late in the day or wait in an empty yard for mum to pick her up?

Forty percent of all riding schools in this country have closed in this country over the last four years due to litigation issues. I fear now that if this new legislation bites it will do for the rest.

For myself I will probably call it a day with horse ownership .... such hysteria is infectious and I can see a situation where guys like me would be wise to think twice before even saying hello to a kid young enough to be my grand daughter let alone getting into conversation or having a laugh and a joke. It is a sad world ..... one that I do not want to share.

The irony is that none of this new law will do anything to save another Holly and Jessica or James Bulger or any of the other atrocities against children since I heard the name Christine Ann Derby on the radio so many years ago. But what will happen is that many kids not born to well off parents will be deprived of the opportunity to experience the horse world through organised riding schools as their numbers dwindle still further.

[twigs]

in 1982 I attended a pony camp where kids stayed in a barn for 5 nights, left to there own devices after a day of mucking out, grooming, lessons and all sorts of horsey stuff...it was the best week of my life back then
i asked the YO of same RS only last week if they still had the summer camps, sadly not, well, not on a stay over basis as now you need 1 adult for every 3 kids for supervision, and adults must have police checks etc etc...the fun has gone out of everything for kids!

[Mary Poppins]

After a childhood experience (not myself I might add) of a paedophile purchasing a livery yard just so he could access children I welcome all the legislation there is to protect children. So much serious and appauling child abuse goes on and the vast majority is never reported or detected.

Before you become all judgemental about this legislation, why not ask a victim of child abuse what they think or ask them to explain the effect that the abuse has had on them?

Surely if just one child is saved from abuse because of this then it is worth it. Paedophiles are very clever people and will do anything to get at children. Most of them are respectable husbands and fathers. No-one has any idea what happens behind closed doors and as a parent myself I would want to know that anyone who is taking my child in their car has had all the checks that they possibly could. If someone doesn't want to be checked, maybe they have something to hide?

[Cortrasna]

Absolute madness - and so sad that almost all the fun we had as kids with horses and adults will just not be possible under this new legislation.

A friend who has a tack shop was telling me the other day that if she is fitting a child with - say jodphurs - she cant feel around the waistband to check the fit but has to ask the child to lift up their top and show her themselves how the waist fits:confused::confused:

And her OH has been trained in the correct fitting of back protectors - but same silly issues come up all the time - has to be SO careful how he works around the children when adjusting etc.!! Just in case some truly weird minded person chooses to think he or she may have been 'improper' in some way with the children???:rolleyes:

Now I know that it is a sorry fact that we have to protect children from abuse of any form but IMO, things are getting to the point when legislation will soon say parents arent allowed to cuddle/kiss their children in case it is some form of witch hunt type abuse:mad:

Crazy world isnt it?:confused:

[Rokx]

Paedophiles are very clever people and will do anything to get at children.

I agree with this, which is why I think all of the legislation is useless. If someone is intent on harming/abusing a child, they will do so, regardless of any legislation in place. Paedophiles have always existed and always will do, as sad as that is.

The government are putting all sorts of legislation in place, in the guise of "protecting" people, when really it is there to control and keep tabs on people.

We are not allowed to do this and that because of worries about "health and safety" and the same goes for legislation such as this. The government like to scare people to keep them under control. Personally I would like to be able to make my own decisions about what is safe and what is not, instead of having my actions controlled and manipulated by those in power.

[puzzles]

This is a little (ok, compeltely;)) O/T, but apparently Childline receive many calls from paedophiles pleading for help as they can't help but think of children in this way and hate being the way they are. In a way being a paedophile is no different, and thus in this way no less acceptable, than being gay as it is simply an alternative sexuality. However the fact that serious harm can be (but not always) inflicted upon children by it of course means that it can never be acceptable. In my eyes, the way that a paedophile may feel & behave towads children is not disimilar to the way that some men feel & behave towards women in terms of rape & sexual misuse. Both are completely unacceptable, & are perceived & handled very differently. To me, paedophiles are victims. They can't help feeling the way that they do - so can they really be labelled as "wrong"? However they can control the way they do (or don't) act upon these feelings. One can argue that paedophilia isn't "nomal" or "natural" but noone asks to be, nor makes themselves, that way. I really, really wish that there were some way that we could help them; hypnosis? Therapy? Does anyone know why people are like this: we normally know where the bulk of our sexuality lies in our teens, but does the same go for padeophiles? I feel very sad for them. :(

More to the point - is there no way that paedophiles can be helped as opposed to being bound by law, which surely would surely be counter-productive anyway as repressing them would only make their needs, & actions to satiate themselves, worse?

x

[Morganna]

It was my understanding that the Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Act 2006 which is coming into effect from nexe month only covered organised lift shares for clubs in which children were involved - so if you are say the mother of a child who attends a football club each weekend, and you arrange to be designated driver to 5 kids in the club, arranged through the club, you will require to be vetted. So if its a private arrangement, i.e you and I arrange to take turns picking up each others kids from footie practice, this is not affected

from the regulations:

"We will make clear that it is a private arrangement where e.g. parents X and Y arrange to take it in turns to pick up their own and the other's children, and so not subject to the scheme's requirements.

"But if the club or school arrange the transport, and for volunteers to do it, then it is regulated activity and the club or school is the regulated activity provider."

Its very open to misinterpretation this one but I dont think its quite what OP is claiming. Riding schools would not be affected unless it was an arranged club activity.

ETA: Can you provide some links for the "dob in they neighbour" thing also as I cant find anything referring to it online

[flinglebunt]

If someone doesn't want to be checked, maybe they have something to hide?

I rest my case.

It is not about checks but about the innuendo that comes from anyone who claims they speak for the victims.... sticks like **** to a blanket and they know it.

So after half the men in the horse world have been subjected to this crap who in their right mind will even let a kid under sixteen anywhere near their yard?

And the data base that will allow anyone with an axe to grind to make a call and say whatever they like without any accountability or even have to identify themselves? If I owned the yard I am at I would simply evict all under sixteens and encourage others to do the same.

As you have suggested, if anyone airs any concerns about this horrendous peice of legislation (that will put even more kids in danger) they must be a pedo themselves. Sadly you will not be alone.

[Alice1992]

This is a little O/T, but apparently Childline receive many calls from paedophiles pleading for help as they can't help but think of children in this way and hate being the way they are. In a way being a paedophile is no different, and thus in this way no less acceptable, than being gay as it is simply an alternative sexuality. However the fact that serious harm can be (but not always) inflicted upon children by it of course means that it can never be acceptable. In my eyes, the way that a paedophile may feel & behave towads children is not disimilar to the way that some men feel & behave towards women in terms of rape & sexual misuse. Both are completely unacceptable, & are perceived & handled very differently. To me, paedophiles are victims. They can't help feeling the way that they do - so can they really be labelled as "wrong"? However they can control the way they do (or don't) act upon these feelings. One can argue that paedophilia isn't "nomal" or "natural" but noone asks to be, nor makes themselves, that way. I really, really wish that there were some way that we could help them; hypnosis? Therapy? Does anyone know why people are like this: we normally know where the bulk of our sexuality lies in our teens, but does the same go for padeophiles? I feel very sad for them. :(

x

sorry ive always liked you, but thsat was a very silly thing to say imo. No its not like beig gay if i was gay i would find hat exteremelyoffensive. Being gay is completly fine, but paedophilia is sick and anyone that feels sorry for them i cannot understad. Sorry if i have ranted but the scarn these people cause is beyond and i can contain myself.

[LinzCos]

That was my understanding too. It does cover people who help in schools perhaps with reading and things like that if they go more than a couple of times a month. But registering is free if you are a volunteer and you only have to agree to be police checked.

The new rules were introduced in response to that school caretaker who murdered two girls and was employed at the school despite a record of sex offences against children.

I agree it might seem a bit over the top however we just discovered that a local juniors rugby coach had convictions for child sex offences and he had contact with loads of yougsters at the club with no checks having been done on him. Everyone though he seemed like such a nice man:mad:

[puzzles]

sorry ive always liked you, but thsat was a very silly thing to say imo. No its not like beig gay if i was gay i would find hat exteremelyoffensive. Being gay is completly fine, but paedophilia is sick and anyone that feels sorry for them i cannot understad. Sorry if i have ranted but the scarn these people cause is beyond and i can contain myself.

I see what you mean - I said that it is like being gay in a way, in that it is just an alternative sexuality. Yet of course the implications are far more serious & that's quite sad or unfortunate, as it's a very difficult thing to deal with. One can't irradicate paedophiles, nor punish then, and they can't be atoned either. They need to be accomodated for, yet how? I feel sorry for them because it absolutely is one of the sickest things, and yet I know that not all of them enjoy being that way & want to change but can't. It just would a s****y 'situation' to find oneself in.

No worries for just thinking differently, hun! :D I by all means do NOT condone it in any shape or form - just so long that we're clear on that!

x

[Micawber]

I think Morganna has summed up the actual position.

Unfortunately it is simply impossible to protect everyone (including children) from every possible risk.

[sadiesparkle]

Strange subject to find on NR! I am a violin and cello teacher, and am CRB checked - not because I HAVE to be, I elected to get the certificate. This was because it's something I get asked an awful lot - which sometimes to be perfectly honest is actually put quite offensively!! I'm a teacher with a hard earned good reputation and sometimes the way people ask me is quite shocking!!

I think the 1 adult per 3 children rule is incredibly constricting and a lot of the things I did as a kid that were wonderful are now no longer, or VERY expensive. The world is less safe than it was, which is a terrible shame, but I do feel that an awful lot of it has been taken to silly extremes.

Giving lifts to kids needing government permission? I don't think so thank you very much!! Just think of all the wonderful extra curricular activities kids will miss out on because busy parents simply cannot get their children there!

xxx

[chev]

I work with children in a local school. I also have a cleaning job there where I have no contact with kids, but I had to be checked for both positions. I have no issue with it at all - I have nothing to hide but it suprises me that some working with kids have a choice whether they're checked (see sadiesparkle's post!), and it's one adult per six kids here (if I remember that right!).

Years ago I worked in a playgroup - mums used to come in and help out but they too had to be checked first. OH runs the local girls football league - he is strictly admin but again has to be checked because he has access to personal details like age and addresses. He has no problem with being checked either.

IMO I'd rather they checked more people than had offenders slip through the net. The kids who hit the news because they were victims represent a very small percentage of kids who are abused.

[Tokio]

@Alice1992: I think the point was that paedophiles don't choose to be a paedophile, just like straight people don't choose to be straignt, gays to be gay, asexuals to be asexual, etc. They're just born that way, even if they don't want to be. (Although, I don't think ALL are born that way, I think some become that way through abuse).

If the check is only for officially organized things than I guess that's okay-ish, maybe. I thought people already had to get a basic background check when getting hired for things. But it definiately shouldn't ever be required for private agreements.

If someone doesn't want to be checked, maybe they have something to hide?

I think a check like this can ruin someone's reputation. Even if the person comes out as innocent society will assume they are guilty just because they had to get checked in the first place.
I don't know about you, but I don't want to be seen as guilty before I even do anything.

I think it's sad how paranoid people have become about children. I heard about some guy who was at the park with his daughter, taking pictures of her going down some slide or something (just like a parent would) and everyone got all upset about it. The mothers were taking pictures of their children but they assumed because he was a man he must be guilty!

I hear so many men are afraid to help a lost or hurt child because someone might think they're a peadophile. Heck, I'm a girl and I get nervous when approached by a lone child because of so many parents that would rather their kid be hit by a car than saved by a stranger!

Perhaps children should be locked in the basement until they're 18. They can do school over the internet and play virtual sports. Then we don't have to worry about all the other evil people touching the children!

Also, some paedophiles are smart, and can fly under the radar. Hence why not all of them are in prison. Paranoia makes the innocent look guilty while the guilty get away.

[Rokx]

This is a little (ok, compeltely;)) O/T, but apparently Childline receive many calls from paedophiles pleading for help as they can't help but think of children in this way and hate being the way they are. In a way being a paedophile is no different, and thus in this way no less acceptable, than being gay as it is simply an alternative sexuality. However the fact that serious harm can be (but not always) inflicted upon children by it of course means that it can never be acceptable. In my eyes, the way that a paedophile may feel & behave towads children is not disimilar to the way that some men feel & behave towards women in terms of rape & sexual misuse. Both are completely unacceptable, & are perceived & handled very differently. To me, paedophiles are victims. They can't help feeling the way that they do - so can they really be labelled as "wrong"? However they can control the way they do (or don't) act upon these feelings. One can argue that paedophilia isn't "nomal" or "natural" but noone asks to be, nor makes themselves, that way. I really, really wish that there were some way that we could help them; hypnosis? Therapy? Does anyone know why people are like this: we normally know where the bulk of our sexuality lies in our teens, but does the same go for padeophiles? I feel very sad for them. :(


x

I actually agree with this! I have studied paedophilia a little at uni and of course they don't "like" the feelings that they get, so much so that many will even resort to voluntary physical castration as a way to stop their 'urges'.

A paedophile will not be stopped by ridiculous legislation; if they were set on committing a crime they will commit it, full stop. Perhaps if there were more places for potential paedophiles to go to get non-judgmental help BEFORE they commit a crime, then this would be a much more effective way of helping to reduce this type of abuse..

[plentyoftime]

This is a little (ok, compeltely;)) O/T, but apparently Childline receive many calls from paedophiles pleading for help as they can't help but think of children in this way and hate being the way they are. In a way being a paedophile is no different, and thus in this way no less acceptable, than being gay as it is simply an alternative sexuality. However the fact that serious harm can be (but not always) inflicted upon children by it of course means that it can never be acceptable. In my eyes, the way that a paedophile may feel & behave towads children is not disimilar to the way that some men feel & behave towards women in terms of rape & sexual misuse. Both are completely unacceptable, & are perceived & handled very differently. To me, paedophiles are victims. They can't help feeling the way that they do - so can they really be labelled as "wrong"? However they can control the way they do (or don't) act upon these feelings. One can argue that paedophilia isn't "nomal" or "natural" but noone asks to be, nor makes themselves, that way. I really, really wish that there were some way that we could help them; hypnosis? Therapy? Does anyone know why people are like this: we normally know where the bulk of our sexuality lies in our teens, but does the same go for padeophiles? I feel very sad for them. :(

More to the point - is there no way that paedophiles can be helped as opposed to being bound by law, which surely would surely be counter-productive anyway as repressing them would only make their needs, & actions to satiate themselves, worse?

x

This is the very heart of the issue, paedophilic behaviour is often attributed to inate actions, I.e " I can't help it" "It is the way I am" etc... or attributed to sexualised behaviours which are often learned by and attributed to conditioning of one sort or another. I.e Parental influences or familiy influences, whereby, they might not know any different.

For me, it is not necessarily about the sexual acts of abuse, which are, in my opinion, vile. It is about abuse, full stop. A normal thinking adult would not abuse a child or a young vulnerable person, as they have the cognitive ability to process the signals or feelings and stop themselves. Again, in my opinion, abusers should be removed from society, castrated (Men and Women alike) especially if they have pre planned their activities, I would even say that the likes of Ian Huntley should be put to death. And those individuals who "Can not help themselves" or what other crap excuses they have, these should be removed from our society and locked away, period. We mostly agree that in our society or culture, this is abuse and against our societies value base. It is just a matter of balancing the priorities, the child / vulnerable person against those who seek to abuse.

It is in my opinion, time to remove all the grey areas and stop pussy footing around with theraputic interventions....these people are seriously messed up and I do not think trying to keep them in society is fair on those who have been abused. However, that said, most abuse happens in the family by those known to the abused. Our priorities are to keep the family together....How mad eh.

I know this might be quite appear to sound harsh and I do work in Child protection. I am aware that as a social worker, I should value everyone's life course and values but it is time for everyone to stand together against those who seek out the vulnerable. There are plenty of assylums for those who arguably should be removed from society.

[SmallHunter]

This is a little (ok, compeltely;)) O/T, but apparently Childline receive many calls from paedophiles pleading for help as they can't help but think of children in this way and hate being the way they are. In a way being a paedophile is no different, and thus in this way no less acceptable, than being gay as it is simply an alternative sexuality. However the fact that serious harm can be (but not always) inflicted upon children by it of course means that it can never be acceptable. In my eyes, the way that a paedophile may feel & behave towads children is not disimilar to the way that some men feel & behave towards women in terms of rape & sexual misuse. Both are completely unacceptable, & are perceived & handled very differently. To me, paedophiles are victims. They can't help feeling the way that they do - so can they really be labelled as "wrong"? However they can control the way they do (or don't) act upon these feelings. One can argue that paedophilia isn't "nomal" or "natural" but noone asks to be, nor makes themselves, that way. I really, really wish that there were some way that we could help them; hypnosis? Therapy? Does anyone know why people are like this: we normally know where the bulk of our sexuality lies in our teens, but does the same go for padeophiles? I feel very sad for them. :(

More to the point - is there no way that paedophiles can be helped as opposed to being bound by law, which surely would surely be counter-productive anyway as repressing them would only make their needs, & actions to satiate themselves, worse?

x

I honestly can not believe I have just read this. A member of my family was seriously abused as a child and because of this had serious issues for the rest of her life. Do I feel sorry for the man who did it to her? Hell no that b******d deserves to rot in hell for the suffering he caused her not only by the act itself but the torment she went through until the day she died.

[puzzles]

I honestly can not believe I have just read this. A member of my family was seriously abused as a child and because of this had serious issues for the rest of her life. Do I feel sorry for the man who did it to her? Hell no that b******d deserves to rot in hell for the suffering he caused her not only by the act itself but the torment she went through until the day she died.

Many paedophiles have had messed up childhoods, mental problems &/or been sexually abused themselves. They never asked to be the way they are and many want help to be able to think differently & learn to influence their thoughts & behaviour to protect children; in that sense I think they are certainly pitiable. Yes, they're messed up & a danger to society. However, as already said, no law written on a piece of paper will be able to control or stop them. What if it were you? Or a member of your family/a friend? How would you think it best to deal with it? Punishing them endlessly or to extremes won't stop their impulses or actions, won't atone for or take back their actions, and since they can't change & reform (because their sexuality is unchangeable & uncontrollable) what good would come out of it? It probably wouldn't even satisfy the loved ones of those abused. I am not trying to justify or make excuses for paedophilia, only trying to understand the person behind the disorder in order to deal with it as best we can.

x

[SmallHunter]

And there are also a lot of people who are abused as a children who grow up to be wonderful people who would never even dream of hurting anyone.
I had severe mental problems in my early teens but I would NEVER have harmed anyone.
I think your comments are offensive to the victims of these abuses I also know exactly what my family members loved ones wanted to do to the perpetrator and they would have ended up in prison themselves.

[Chestnutter]

Being an adult is all about controlling your urges. I get sick and tired of hearing this "men can't help themselves" bs. BUT I also hate all the hysteria that surrounds this sort of thing.

As a mum of 2 grown up (ish) kids I believe it is ultimately my responsiblity to protect them and not the governments.

[puzzles]

I think your comments are offensive to the victims of these abuses ...

:( I'm interested to know how, but don't want to go further O/T ...PM?

Since I've gone O/T anyway ... I haven't heard of a single paedophilia case regarding a woman as the abuser - coincedance? It must surely happen, but I agree that it is ultimately more in the parent's power to protect their children as best they can, than the government's.

x

[Fabio's Filly!]

Many paedophiles have had messed up childhoods, mental problems &/or been sexually abused themselves. They never asked to be the way they are and many want help to be able to think differently & learn to influence their thoughts & behaviour to protect children; in that sense I think they are certainly pitiable. Yes, they're messed up & a danger to society. However, as already said, no law written on a piece of paper will be able to control or stop them. What if it were you? Or a member of your family/a friend? How would you think it best to deal with it? Punishing them endlessly or to extremes won't stop their impulses or actions, won't atone for or take back their actions, and since they can't change & reform (because their sexuality is unchangeable & uncontrollable) what good would come out of it? It probably wouldn't even satisfy the loved ones of those abused. I am not trying to justify or make excuses for paedophilia, only trying to understand the person behind the disorder in order to deal with it as best we can.

x

My mum and her 3 brothers endured physical & sexual abuse from her various 'stepdads' for years before ending up in a childrens home. Thats about as messed up a childhood that i can think of and none of them have ended up molesting children. I think its a cop out to lay the blame at bad childhoods for these dispicable individuals as there are plenty of people who go through the same that don't turnout as scum like that.

I agree that they probably won't change or reform though, i believe that unfortunately some people are just born bad - regardless of upbringing.

[Spooky]

Sorry if this has already been mentioned, but it's not been said that 1 in 4 men will do/has abused a child, but that 1 in 4 adults were abused as a child. Just to clear that up :)

[chev]

Since I've gone O/T anyway ... I haven't heard of a single paedophilia case regarding a woman as the abuser - coincedance? It must surely happen, but I agree that it is ultimately more in the parent's power to protect their children as best they can, than the government's.

x

The recent Baby Peter case is one in which the child's mother abused him.

Myra Hindly abused and tortured children.

Women are perhaps less likely to abuse children but it does happen.

[puzzles]

Sorry if this has already been mentioned, but it's not been said that 1 in 4 men will do/has abused a child, but that 1 in 4 adults were abused as a child. Just to clear that up :)

:eek: seriously? What counts as official "abuse" then, out of curiosity?

It's great to have a debate this strong that hasn't already been replicated numersous times before on NR ... even if it is a extremely sensitive & contraversial one.

x

[rtk]

In my opinion children should be protected in whatever way is necessary.

If that means keeping abusers away from the rest of society then so be it.

I know even more checks wont stop it happening but it will give responsible parents a better chance of keeping their kids safe.

I was always extremely careful where my daughter went and who with.

I go through extensive security checks for my job and rightly so.

If I wanted to volunteer for something I would not mind more checks.

The only problem I see with this legislation is the cost, it will be very expensive for some organisations to check every time. And these checks are really only worth anything on the day they are done, the person in question could do something the day after.

Perhaps something like a driving licence would be better, you get one once and if you do something wrong its taken off you. It would be cheaper in the long run.

[Jamey]

The world is less safe than it was

Is this true or is it just that, with ever-quicker access to news around the world, we hear about more cases?

Sadly, I heard a gentleman expressing his concern the other day at how he should behave with his own daughter, ie. how long could he cuddle or hug her for before people perceived it to be 'inappropriate', what age should he stop bathing her and leave it to his wife etc.

It's striking a balance between protecting children from those who would harm them, whilst still allowing children to grow up as well-adjusted people who are not fearful or neglected of physical contact.

[vimto92]

You feel sorry for paedophiles, puzzles? I'm sorry but I'm not quite sure how that works out... Look at it from this point perspective. Heterosexuals/homosexuals that can't control their urges and force themselves on people in a sexual manner are considered rapists... do you feel sorry for these people too? The only difference is a child often doesn't have a voice, or the amount of development to know that such a thing is wrong.

[Fabio's Filly!]

Also - why would anyone have a problem with having a check done if they are to be involved with children in anyway if they didn't have something to hide? I haven't got kids but if i worked with or had a fair bit of involvement with children i'd have no objection.

I can't remember where it was but about a year or so back it was on the news about a bloke who owned a riding school who'd been 'taking advantage' of the young girls there for years. So not an O/T thread as it unfortunately affects the horsey world too. Does anyone else remember hearing about that?

[Hammie]

The recent Baby Peter case is one in which the child's mother abused him.

Myra Hindly abused and tortured children.

Women are perhaps less likely to abuse children but it does happen.

Rose West also committed horrible abuses (to teenagers/young adults), but all of these had a male lover who was at least equally culpable and most probably the initiator of the abuse. I've never heard of a woman doing this kind of stuff on her own.

[puzzles]

You feel sorry for paedophiles, puzzles? I'm sorry but I'm not quite sure how that works out... Look at it from this point perspective. Heterosexuals/homosexuals that can't control their urges and force themselves on people in a sexual manner are considered rapists... do you feel sorry for these people too? The only difference is a child often doesn't have a voice, or the amount of development to know that such a thing is wrong.

Homosexuals & heterosexuals have willing participants, whereby by definition paedohiles don't. Extremely out there I know, but could all heterosexuals and homosexuals be so self-disciplined if they were compeltely denied those willing participants? Noone will ever know! I pity them because they a human beings who, effectively, have a mental disorder (is that officially so? What is the term classified as?) and life presumably would be very difficult for them in a society where such people struggle to get a job, live a normal life, develop & maintain healthy relationships with people & generally live as a valuable member of society - the laws don't make it any better for anyone; children still get abused and paedophiles keep on existing. Also, as I have already said, they need help to at least try & change their ways, if that is possible. I certainly do not mean a pat on the back or comforting words that "it's ok" but should we not make it as easy as possible for them to take responsibility and try to change - Has anyone even tried? Please take note - I never, ever implied that I think paedophilia justifiable, acceptable or even understandable. Everyone endures difficulties in life and react differently to them as they grow older. However it needs to dealt with by the most effective means possible bearing all parties in mind.

x

[lottie.dot]

I to have to agree with Puzzles on this one. Whilst I am not saying that everyone out there is a complete victim of their own childhood or own mental state as we all know that doesn't have to define you but sometime it's pretty hard as it can swallow you whole - What I am saying is some of these people really suffer with this. I mean imagine it if where you or I, who had these feelings. I have to admit, I would probably end my life (I, of course certainly do not have 'these' feelings)

But it really is the low of low and there are masses of people in this country alone, who do have these feelings but never act on in, or if they do it doesn't end in death/torture... But of course the sheer act itself is foul and unimaginable enough.

So my point is, whilst the extreme cases make the headline news, where imense amount of suffering and pain in involved - these are the bad guy's. The struggling (for want of a better word) ones suffer like hell with the temptation. Should they lose the fight, then well....

x

[Alice1992]

I usually see the good side in everyone, but i personally think they should be disposed off. If tha offends anyone i am very sorry, but im sure people who he either been a vctim or have had close people as i have experience this will agree.

[devonlass]

I agree with this, which is why I think all of the legislation is useless. If someone is intent on harming/abusing a child, they will do so, regardless of any legislation in place. Paedophiles have always existed and always will do, as sad as that is.

The government are putting all sorts of legislation in place, in the guise of "protecting" people, when really it is there to control and keep tabs on people.

We are not allowed to do this and that because of worries about "health and safety" and the same goes for legislation such as this. The government like to scare people to keep them under control. Personally I would like to be able to make my own decisions about what is safe and what is not, instead of having my actions controlled and manipulated by those in power.


Legislation that stops people who would harm children,having easy access to them is never useless.
Do you suffer with paranoia??
The government want CRB checks and such like to keep tabs on people?? Even if you are a real cynic and don't think it's that they want to protect people,do you not think the potential for liability is a far more logical reason??

Health and safety although OTT at times is there for everyone's protection.If you had an accident at work that was blatant negligence on your employers part,would you not want legislation in place to ensure they didn't get away with it,and protected your rights?? You can't have it both way's I'm afraid.It's not about you decideing what is safe,it's about others taking responsibility not to put you in harms way.

This is a little (ok, compeltely;)) O/T, but apparently Childline receive many calls from paedophiles pleading for help as they can't help but think of children in this way and hate being the way they are. In a way being a paedophile is no different, and thus in this way no less acceptable, than being gay as it is simply an alternative sexuality. However the fact that serious harm can be (but not always) inflicted upon children by it of course means that it can never be acceptable. In my eyes, the way that a paedophile may feel & behave towads children is not disimilar to the way that some men feel & behave towards women in terms of rape & sexual misuse. Both are completely unacceptable, & are perceived & handled very differently. To me, paedophiles are victims. They can't help feeling the way that they do - so can they really be labelled as "wrong"? However they can control the way they do (or don't) act upon these feelings. One can argue that paedophilia isn't "nomal" or "natural" but noone asks to be, nor makes themselves, that way. I really, really wish that there were some way that we could help them; hypnosis? Therapy? Does anyone know why people are like this: we normally know where the bulk of our sexuality lies in our teens, but does the same go for padeophiles? I feel very sad for them. :(

More to the point - is there no way that paedophiles can be helped as opposed to being bound by law, which surely would surely be counter-productive anyway as repressing them would only make their needs, & actions to satiate themselves, worse?

x

Oh puzzles hun,I'm sorry but you really do have a lot of that very wrong.Sexuality is not the problem.It is NOT a choice of sexuality to harm and abuse children,it is a choice to destroy others to pleasure yourself.Many sex offenders are not sorry,they don't feel bad or guilty.they think ONLY of themselves and what they want.
Some might not be able to help the way they feel,but the fact they CHOOSE to act on those feelings shows they have no regard for others and their feelings.We all FEEL things at certain times,we don't however act on those feelings if we know it is wrong or would cause hurt or trauma to someone else,and because we know it's wrong,morally and legally.

BTW all convicted sex offenders are offered help and rehab,many of them CHOOSE not to participate.
I also know of some that have recieved loads of help,and although they requested the help initially,they made little effort to engage with relevant professionals,and even less to make any real long term changes.

It was my understanding that the Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Act 2006 which is coming into effect from nexe month only covered organised lift shares for clubs in which children were involved - so if you are say the mother of a child who attends a football club each weekend, and you arrange to be designated driver to 5 kids in the club, arranged through the club, you will require to be vetted. So if its a private arrangement, i.e you and I arrange to take turns picking up each others kids from footie practice, this is not affected

from the regulations:

"We will make clear that it is a private arrangement where e.g. parents X and Y arrange to take it in turns to pick up their own and the other's children, and so not subject to the scheme's requirements.

"But if the club or school arrange the transport, and for volunteers to do it, then it is regulated activity and the club or school is the regulated activity provider."

Its very open to misinterpretation this one but I dont think its quite what OP is claiming. Riding schools would not be affected unless it was an arranged club activity.

ETA: Can you provide some links for the "dob in they neighbour" thing also as I cant find anything referring to it online

That sounds far more like sense,and more fitting with other current legislation.

I see what you mean - I said that it is like being gay in a way, in that it is just an alternative sexuality. Yet of course the implications are far more serious & that's quite sad or unfortunate, as it's a very difficult thing to deal with. One can't irradicate paedophiles, nor punish then, and they can't be atoned either. They need to be accomodated for, yet how? I feel sorry for them because it absolutely is one of the sickest things, and yet I know that not all of them enjoy being that way & want to change but can't. It just would a s****y 'situation' to find oneself in.

x

The implications are not just 'more serious',and it's not 'sad' or 'unfortunate'.The implications are devestating,and it's horrendous and despicable.
They are accomodated hun,it's called prison.
Many of them DO enjoy being what they are,and the ones that don't have opportunities to recieve help.Anyone who truly wants to change can do so,what you are in denial about is that most of them put their own wants and desires before anything else.

Save your sympathy puzzles hun,there are far more deserving causes.

[lottie.dot]

Rose West also committed horrible abuses (to teenagers/young adults), but all of these had a male lover who was at least equally culpable and most probably the initiator of the abuse. I've never heard of a woman doing this kind of stuff on her own.


I don't know about that - I would probably be more frightened of a women then a man, as we as a race are more controlled and can be more calculated/manipulative... If we want to be. The norm is we are not thank god, but it just seems to be, the bad ones are not just bad but incredibly so!

[puzzles]

Save your sympathy puzzles hun,there are far more deserving causes.

Yes ... pity is a more appropriate word, adjacent to revultion. Please don't overlook that I agree with all of you that it is the lowest of the low, that many paedophiles do not want to change, and that they should do anything they can to avoid giving in to the temptation. However those who want to change, and can, should be given the opportunity; or perhaps more opportunities. I can't imagine that health clinics are overflowing with sessions for 'paedophilia confessions'. The subject is such a big taboo that I imagine paedophiles would find it very difficult to face the prejudice & scorn in order to ask for help.
There is no doubt that it is wrong. The only difference I see between my views & some of the others on this thread is that some believe (more than understandably) that paedophiles don't deserve chances to reform and should be terminated (which is what I used to believe) whereas I think that no law or extreme torture will make any significant difference to what paedophiles think & do (or necessarily the number of them) or encourage much good to come from it. Perhaps a prison/asylum (similar institution, different word one could argue - both aimed at reform and not punishment, apparently) for them to live in, as a vacuum from society. Again, however, this would only word for know offfenders so wouldn't necessarily act as an effective preventative.

x

[plentyoftime]

:eek: seriously? What counts as official "abuse" then, out of curiosity?

It's great to have a debate this strong that hasn't already been replicated numersous times before on NR ... even if it is a extremely sensitive & contraversial one.

x

To help, here is a link to a definition of general abuse: But it does not go into massive detail and specific issues regarding Children such as: Verbal, Emotional, Sexual, Physical etc...

http://www.publicguardian.gov.uk/concerns/problems-making-decisions.htm

However, the difficulty for Children is that people often argue about the right of a child over the rights of a parent. A good starting point as a discussion is this link:

http://www.thesite.org/homelawandmoney/law/victimsofcrime/whatischildabuse

notice that they do not use the word smacking.... as it is not illegal and in my opinion it is ok for parents to check, smack their children to emphasise a point.....but if this is sustained and beyond appropriate force..it could be abuse...which is a grey area.......very grey lol.





The

[puzzles]

Thanks plentyoftime :) Can you imagine the mess that would happen if smaking were banned?

x

[devonlass]

Homosexuals & heterosexuals have willing participants, whereby by definition paedohiles don't. Extremely out there I know, but could all heterosexuals and homosexuals be so self-disciplined if they were compeltely denied those willing participants? Noone will ever know! I pity them because they a human beings who, effectively, have a mental disorder (is that officially so? What is the term classified as?) and life presumably would be very difficult for them in a society where such people struggle to get a job, live a normal life, develop & maintain healthy relationships with people & generally live as a valuable member of society - the laws don't make it any better for anyone; children still get abused and paedophiles keep on existing. Also, as I have already said, they need help to at least try & change their ways, if that is possible. I certainly do not mean a pat on the back or comforting words that "it's ok" but should we not make it as easy as possible for them to take responsibility and try to change - Has anyone even tried? Please take note - I never, ever implied that I think paedophilia justifiable, acceptable or even understandable. Everyone endures difficulties in life and react differently to them as they grow older. However it needs to dealt with by the most effective means possible bearing all parties in mind.

x

Puzzles can I suggest you read some case studies,and transcripts of abuse cases.Perhaps if you read what some of these people actually think about their 'feelings' and their victims,you might realise just how calculating,vindictive,callous and selfish these people can be.

No it is not generally classed as a mental illness.It is of course possible that some people may have a form of mental illness along side being an abuser,but sex offending in itself is not a mental illness.It is a CHOICE,that is why I find it so difficult to understand your having so much sympathy (or pity) for them:confused:

Save your sympathy puzzles hun,there are far more deserving causes.

Yes ... pity is a more appropriate word, adjacent to revultion. Please don't overlook that I agree with all of you that it is the lowest of the low, that many paedophiles do not want to change, and that they should do anything they can to avoid giving in to the temptation. However those who want to change, and can, should be given the opportunity; or perhaps more opportunities. I can't imagine that health clinics are overflowing with sessions for 'paedophilia confessions'. The subject is such a big taboo that I imagine paedophiles would find it very diffcicult to face the prejudice & scorn in order to ask for help.

x

Even pity should be reserved for those that have at least done something to justify it perhaps??

You are wrong about the opportunities puzz,they are there if people wish to utilize them.I have a hospital near me that has a forensic dept,and I'm sure if there's one in a sleepy town in Devon,then there's many more around as well!!

Known fact BTW,most sex offenders (I keep using that term BTW as dislike the term peadophile,but I mean it in the same context for these purposes),do NOT seek help even when it's available.They usually are forced to consider help when they are caught,and even then don't always accept it.Some do as a means for early release from a custodial sentence,but it is not a genuine effort,and a high percentage re-offend.

[rubysmum]

brutally - prolific & serial sex offenders will and do target places where they perceive that that can get access to young people - as a teacher/ex-youth worker i have NO issues at all with being checked & double checked in order to safe guard children & vunerable adults - its not political correctness gone mad - but a CRB disclusure AND appropriate training allows me to keep both myself and children/vunerable adults safe.
secondly - comments about pedophilea [sp] being " a bit like " being gay contribute to a climate of fear which allows gay bashing/attacks of gay/lesbian bars & clubs & promotes an atmosphere of fear which stops gay/lesbian teachers/youth workers etc being open about themselves in the workplace.
as an out lesbian, i have consensual relationships with other adult women based on mutaul regard & affection - its not even nearly " a bit like" pedophelia
xx

[puzzles]

Puzzles can I suggest you read some case studies,and transcripts of abuse cases.Perhaps if you read what some of these people actually think about their 'feelings' and their victims,you might realise just how calculating,vindictive,callous and selfish these people can be.

No it is not generally classed as a mental illness.It is of course possible that some people may have a form of mental illness along side being an abuser,but sex offending in itself is not a mental illness.It is a CHOICE,that is why I find it so difficult to understand your having so much sympathy (or pity) for them:confused:

Even pity should be reserved for those that have at least done something to justify it perhaps??

You are wrong about the opportunities puzz,they are there if people wish to utilize them.I have a hospital near me that has a forensic dept,and I'm sure if there's one in a sleepy town in Devon,then there's many more around as well!!

Known fact BTW,most sex offenders (I keep using that term BTW as dislike the term peadophile,but I mean it in the same context for these purposes),do NOT seek help even when it's available.They usually are forced to consider help when they are caught,and even then don't always accept it.Some do as a means for early release from a custodial sentence,but it is not a genuine effort,and a high percentage re-offend.

Struck home! I freely admit to only knowing the 'average amount' about paedophiles, but I see it more from the perspective that they are victims of their own urges. Obviously this isn't necessarily the case or the perspective of everyone. I don't know how much research has gone into it (considering the delicacy of the subject & studies would be very diffuclt, if not impossible, to contruct due to its nature) but it seems to be a more vague concept as opposed to well known &/or relatively common actual mental disorders such as depression & eating disorders. I hate to judge people in a black-and-white way and dislike even more the possibility of having to accept that paedophiles are unhelpable. Noone's 100% 'bad'. I speak for those (apparent minority) who hate the way that they are & seek change. Maybe those who are neither of these really are lost causes. :(

x

[flinglebunt]

:( I'm interested to know how, but don't want to go further O/T ...PM?

Since I've gone O/T anyway ... I haven't heard of a single paedophilia case regarding a woman as the abuser - coincedance? It must surely happen,

x

Rose West, she was done for rape.

[JustJas]

I am all for background checks to protect the vulnerable- if you have nothing to hide what is the problem?

However as I am a supply teacher through several agencies- I am looking forward to the new check that is coming out which is portable. I am sick of paying £30+ each time I join an agency.

[abisheridee]

This is a little (ok, compeltely;)) O/T, but apparently Childline receive many calls from paedophiles pleading for help as they can't help but think of children in this way and hate being the way they are. In a way being a paedophile is no different, and thus in this way no less acceptable, than being gay as it is simply an alternative sexuality. However the fact that serious harm can be (but not always) inflicted upon children by it of course means that it can never be acceptable. In my eyes, the way that a paedophile may feel & behave towads children is not disimilar to the way that some men feel & behave towards women in terms of rape & sexual misuse. Both are completely unacceptable, & are perceived & handled very differently. To me, paedophiles are victims. They can't help feeling the way that they do - so can they really be labelled as "wrong"? However they can control the way they do (or don't) act upon these feelings. One can argue that paedophilia isn't "nomal" or "natural" but noone asks to be, nor makes themselves, that way. I really, really wish that there were some way that we could help them; hypnosis? Therapy? Does anyone know why people are like this: we normally know where the bulk of our sexuality lies in our teens, but does the same go for padeophiles? I feel very sad for them. :(

More to the point - is there no way that paedophiles can be helped as opposed to being bound by law, which surely would surely be counter-productive anyway as repressing them would only make their needs, & actions to satiate themselves, worse?

x

Completely agree Puzzles. I've heard stuff like 'chemical castration' is common now for 'recovering' paedophiles? Don't know how effective this is. My Mum works in child services and actually dealt with the Ian Huntley case, and the sad thing to her is that a lot of these people really don't want to be the way they are, love children, but just can't help themselves. It is absolutely disgusting but it will ALWAYS be there. I can see absolutely no way in which this legislation will help anyone.

[Riley Roo]

If it is a blanket legislation for anyone who works with children - be that paid or voluntary - i fail to see how this would make people point their fingers at men simply because they had a check? Surely if it was just a voluntary thing and people could refuse/opt out they would be more likely to be under suspicion?

If you have nothing to hide i don't see what the problem is. Safeguarding children is paramount as far as i am concerned and if you aren't willing to be checked then you shouldn't be working with them - period. There is too much of this namby pamby 'big brother watching you' cr@p that puts kids in danger. If everyone had to be checked then there would be no stigma attached.

As far as the connection with abusive childhoods and links to sex offenses goes - i agree not all children who are abused become sex offenders but everyone reacts to the experience differently. I work with children everyday who have been abused in very similar ways but every single one of them acts differently - some are violent, some smash things up, some shout verbal abuse, some are very quiet, some have very sexualised behaviour. Just because one person doesn't become a sex offender due to their past does not mean a different person won't become a sex offender as a result of their past.

I applaud this legislation because anything that can help prevent the abuse that i see the results of everyday that ruins children's lives can only be a good thing.

[old_woman]

It would appear that they are putting together a database ...In short, like the days of Stalins Soviet Union or the Maoist revolution in China

Does it surprise you? This is THE database state. The current government have an obsession with their (insecure, inefficient and inaccurate) databases, the theft and loss of which - which we have seen far too often - offer far more risks to the vulnerable than any proposed database of the 'safe' and 'unsafe' offers in protection.

The irony is that none of this new law will do anything to save another Holly and Jessica or James Bulger or any of the other atrocities against children since I heard the name Christine Ann Derby on the radio so many years ago. But what will happen is that many kids not born to well off parents will be deprived of the opportunity to experience the horse world through organised riding schools as their numbers dwindle still further.

Oh, how very, very true.

If someone doesn't want to be checked, maybe they have something to hide?

So you are saying that if you are not a criminal then the government may use any surveillance and monitoring against you no matter how draconian and intrusive? All mail should be routinely opened, all telephone calls routinely recorded, cameras monitoring every movement you make? Do you have curtains on your windows or a hedge around your garden? As the great majority of child abuse takes place in the home by family members or close friends, I presume that you support the installation - IN YOUR OWN HOME - of domestic CCTV cameras linked directly back to police and social service monitoring centres?

Ones need or desire for privacy does not, in any way, imply that one has something to hide. This is an entirely erroneous notion. To invade someone's privacy, there should have a very good reason. One valid reason would be if a person were committing criminal acts or strongly suspected of doing so
.
Privacy and freedom - contrary to Mr Brown's beliefs and, apparently, yours - are ours in the UK by historical right. It is not a proper function of government, at least in the UK, to engage in blanket surveillance of law-abiding citizens, to instigate systems of compulsory identification and/or registration, or to criminalise citizens who refuse to comply with their demands for registration.

How DARE you suggest, by your accusatory statement above, that a person who does not wish the government to intrude into their legal, private, daily activities might perforce have 'something to hide', that something being, by implication, something relating to despicable activities - HOW DARE YOU?!

Just because a particular proposal has some advantages (and a register of this type DOES have advantages, of course) that doesn’t mean it is good or should be adopted. Consider the advantages of banning all cars or imposing a jail-on-sight, all-night curfew in cities from 6 pm until 6 am. Both could be shown to have really massive benefits (consider 3,000 + deaths a year in vehicle accidents, and crowds of drunken thugs in our city centres.)

It is the innocent who have the most to fear from a database such as this. Criminal paedophiles and their friends, cohorts and enablers will simply find a way around this register – it will be a minor irritation (or even a golden opportunity) for them, and who knows how many totally innocent people's lives will be ruined by identity theft, mistaken identity, mismatched names and erroneous information, as well as the foul innuendo spewed forth by statements such as '... maybe they have something to hide?'

The database state is a very poor substitute for parental vigilance and good judgement based on sound family values and a degree of experience of the world.

Be afraid, people. If you are a normal, law-abiding person who values their privacy - be VERY afraid.

[devonlass]

So you are saying that if you are not a criminal then the government may use any surveillance and monitoring against you no matter how draconian and intrusive? All mail should be routinely opened, all telephone calls routinely recorded, cameras monitoring every movement you make? Do you have curtains on your windows or a hedge around your garden? As the great majority of child abuse takes place in the home by family members or close friends, I presume that you support the installation - IN YOUR OWN HOME - of domestic CCTV cameras linked directly back to police and social service monitoring centres?

Ones need or desire for privacy does not, in any way, imply that one has something to hide. This is an entirely erroneous notion. To invade someone's privacy, there should have a very good reason. One valid reason would be if a person were committing criminal acts or strongly suspected of doing so
.
Privacy and freedom - contrary to Mr Brown's beliefs and, apparently, yours - are ours in the UK by historical right. It is not a proper function of government, at least in the UK, to engage in blanket surveillance of law-abiding citizens, to instigate systems of compulsory identification and/or registration, or to criminalise citizens who refuse to comply with their demands for registration.

How DARE you suggest, by your accusatory statement above, that a person who does not wish the government to intrude into their legal, private, daily activities might perforce have 'something to hide', that something being, by implication, something relating to despicable activities - HOW DARE YOU?!

It is the innocent who have the most to fear from a database such as this. Criminal paedophiles and their friends, cohorts and enablers will simply find a way around this register – it will be a minor irritation (or even a golden opportunity) for them, and who knows how many totally innocent people's lives will be ruined by identity theft, mistaken identity, mismatched names and erroneous information, as well as the foul innuendo spewed forth by statements such as '... maybe they have something to hide?'


I'm sorry,but isn't that a little OTT and dramatic.
This is legislation as I understand it that requires people working or volunteering with children representing an organisation or group to be checked,how is that anything like having CCTV installed in your home??

The poster you quoted just stated that anyone who was working or voluteering for such an activity who refused to be checked might have something to hide.Possibly not true,but not unreasonable to assume.If they are aware of the rules surrounding the scheme and then refuse to comply then I personally would find that odd.Really don't think there was any need for the 'how dare you' comments:confused:

Why do the innocents have the most to fear?? I have been enhanced CRB checked many times in my work,doesn't worry me.Quite frankly I would be more concerned if I was allowed to do my job without being checked.
This legisaltion is a huge safeguard for vulnerable people,it prevents people who would cause harm from having access to potential victims,I really don't see how anyone could have an objection to that??
If you have no desire to work with,or volunteer with vulnerable adults or children,then it won't affect you,so why are you so up in arms about it?? If you do have the desire to do either of those things then you would I hope also be willing to put their needs before yours,so shouldn't mind being checked anyway.

[Sam_22]

This is a little (ok, compeltely;)) O/T, but apparently Childline receive many calls from paedophiles pleading for help as they can't help but think of children in this way and hate being the way they are. In a way being a paedophile is no different, and thus in this way no less acceptable, than being gay as it is simply an alternative sexuality. However the fact that serious harm can be (but not always) inflicted upon children by it of course means that it can never be acceptable. In my eyes, the way that a paedophile may feel & behave towads children is not disimilar to the way that some men feel & behave towards women in terms of rape & sexual misuse. Both are completely unacceptable, & are perceived & handled very differently. To me, paedophiles are victims. They can't help feeling the way that they do - so can they really be labelled as "wrong"? However they can control the way they do (or don't) act upon these feelings. One can argue that paedophilia isn't "nomal" or "natural" but noone asks to be, nor makes themselves, that way. I really, really wish that there were some way that we could help them; hypnosis? Therapy? Does anyone know why people are like this: we normally know where the bulk of our sexuality lies in our teens, but does the same go for padeophiles? I feel very sad for them. :(

More to the point - is there no way that paedophiles can be helped as opposed to being bound by law, which surely would surely be counter-productive anyway as repressing them would only make their needs, & actions to satiate themselves, worse?

x


My goodness. I cannot believe I have just read this. I actually cried after reading what you said.

I HAD TYPED A REPLY BUT HAVE DECIDED TO TAKE IT OUT. I'm not getting into this discussion. There's just one thing I want to say...

Puzzles it's the children who are the victim's. NOT the abusers/paedophiles. Im sorry and I don't mean to single you out, but I am absolutely disgusted with what you said. You would be wise to remember that it's the CHILDREN WHO ARE THE VICTIMS :(

[devonlass]

Struck home! I freely admit to only knowing the 'average amount' about paedophiles, but I see it more from the perspective that they are victims of their own urges. Obviously this isn't necessarily the case or the perspective of everyone. I don't know how much research has gone into it (considering the delicacy of the subject & studies would be very diffuclt, if not impossible, to contruct due to its nature) but it seems to be a more vague concept as opposed to well known &/or relatively common actual mental disorders such as depression & eating disorders. I hate to judge people in a black-and-white way and dislike even more the possibility of having to accept that paedophiles are unhelpable. Noone's 100% 'bad'. I speak for those (apparent minority) who hate the way that they are & seek change. Maybe those who are neither of these really are lost causes. :(

x

Sorry missed this one:o

There is actually a lot of research in this area,is just not widely discussed,as you say is not exactly what most people want to talk about over after dinner mints;).I think you have to move away from the concept that all vile and evil things must be a result of mental illness (You're not alone though BTW,working in mental health I struggle with this as always think there ought to be an 'explanation' or 'diagnosis' for everything).Although I would agree that people who do such things to others must be sick in some way,it's not necessarily a mental illness and something they can't help or be responsible for.The sad truth is,that most sex offenders act out of selfishness,want and a blatant disregard for others feelings,and although this is certainly not the norm,neither is it a form of mental illness.

I completely understand wanting to see the best in people,I am very much the same,and I too believe that anyone who wants to change should absolutely be offered rehabilitation not punishment.Unfortunately with the type of people we are discussing,rehab is not usually wanted or repsonded to.Many refuse to actually believe they have done anything wrong,they find all sorts of way's to justify it,or even blame the victim,and it's very hard to help rehabilitate someone who can't see they've done anything wrong.
I don't like to label people lost causes either,far from it,but in this instance I think the re-offending rate does prove that some people are either beyond help,or plain don't want to be helped.

[LauraGeeGee]

Have to say, I agree with Puzzles here.

I don't see why they can't be chemically castrated and done with it. Often these people are the victim of abuse themselves and go on to be abusers. So in that sense they are victims. How can it NOT be a form of mental illnesss? Normal, rational thinking people wouldn't do these things!

I was brought up "Not to talk to strangers".
" There are funny men out there who will take you away and I'll never see you again".
"If anyone touches you in private pleaces, you MUST tell me, don't be scared" etc etc.
It used to scare the hell out of me but taught me to be streetwise and safe from an early age, I obeyed my mothers advice and it kept me safe. Teachers used to say these things too. But kids aren't allowed to be scared anymore. I was brought up on fear and common sense not wrapped in cotton wool as nowadays. Kids don't seem to be warned in this way now and they're not taught the respect of authority etc. I think that causes some of the problems in society we see today (not regarding peodophiles).
Saying this, of course I'm not putting the blame on kids!! It's just such a different fluffy wrapped society that I grew up in where kids aren't protected and warned like we used to be!

Oh and no matter what legislation, they'll be a way around it for those who want it unfortunately.

As always, this subject creates hysteria and "string em up" attitude.

[Tokio]

Paedophilia is disgusting yes, and it is sad that children get abused.

However, I think too many people are blinded by the actions that they don't care about the cause. People do not just wake up randomly one day and decide they are sexually attracted to children. As far as I know, that is not natural, so in order for a person to be sexually attracted to a child there must be something wrong with them. They are sick.

I assume it must be very difficult for them to live in our world where there is no outlet for their sexual frustrations. Some do not act on their desires, but unfortunately some do.

Humans are sexual creatures and sadly their sexuality is pointed in the wrong direction. But imagine if you are a sexual living in an asexual world with no outlet for your desires. I assume it's like that for them, they live in a world where they get no relief, and thus some of them turn to abusive means to fulfill their urges.

It is a terrible terrible thing but I do feel sorry for them in a way. I feel sorry that they were born with (or developed) this sick condition. I'm sorry there is no cure so they can't be fixed. I'm sorry this condition even exists. I can't imagine the mental turmoil some of them suffer through because of morals vs urges. I feel sorry for their victims. I don't think anyone WANTS to be a paedophile.

Also, as far as I know there is no cure at the moment so castrating them doesn't help. They can still abuse children. I hope one day that someone DOES find some cure to fix them.

Yes, there are some people out there that are just plain evil but it's not fair to view all paedophiles that way. There are many that DON'T want to be this way, but can't help how they feel. Just like you can't help that you like boys/girls. Sadly their interest can result in the harm of another.

As for the background check: sexual abuse is not the ONLY form of child abuse.

Is this background check going to look into other forms of abuse as well? Starvation, neglect, beating, emotional abuse, etc. What about adults who give drugs/alcohol to minors? If people are worried about kids then you might as well check for EVERYTHING.

A background check is okay for child-related businesses as long as they check for everything. Although child abusers can still get past this because not all of them have a record.

Not sure about the hotline though. People will complain about anything and everything if they don't like you. Some parents are insane and hateful.

Heck, I don't want to be raped, perhaps everyone on earth should be checked and stalked by the government to make sure nothing happens to any of us. Oh no! There are boys in my classes, I supposed I better get them all checked because they might rape me.

(I wonder how many children will be injured/die/lost/kidnapped because a man - who could have saved him/her - will be too afraid to do anything in fear of being labeled/investigated)

[acw295]

I don't have an issue about being checked, but the majority of paedophiles are unknown to the authorities. You can be a paedophile and pass every check if you have never been caught, and very few are caught sadly.

What concerns me is that if everyone has to be checked people will make assumptions that people are therefore "safe", and be less guarded than they might otherwise be.

There's a lot of media hype today about who will need checking, when you actually read the proposal it isn't as bad as the headlines suggest.

I do get annoyed that people act as though peadophiles are a modern invention, if you look at the Old Baily court records for example (they are searchable online) going way back you will see 1000's of files refering to sexual offences against children - it was as rife then as it is now, and they didn't have the internet.

[Joyscarer]

This worries me I'm afraid.

In these times where it is normal for both parents to have to work I think that voluntary organisations and clubs for children play an even more important part in a childs' socialisation.

I also think that given that both parents have to work means that there is an ever increasing problem in finding volunteers to put in a regular, predictable and sustained input into local clubs.

Anything that restricts the ability of clubs to recruit helpers is going to impact negatively on the clubs of this nation an ultimately impact on the very children we are seeking to give the best upbringing we can. As a mum myself I do always have in the back of my mind if how I behave with my child and her friends could be seen as inappropriate. Tbh I don't like to get too involved.

Just a thought but isn't the vast majority of child abuse perportated by adults close to or part of the child's own family? Surely the most effective ways to actually reduce child abuse should be ones that target this?

I think that whilst I welcome new processes that will impact positively on child protection I not sure how effective this measure will be. There are plenty of opportunities for anyone wanting to avoid being checked to come into contact with the vunerable in other ways. Imho this latest measure will do little impact of the number of child abuse incidences and will merely shift where it happens to other areas in society. I think the whole thing is just for easy points scoring with the general public.

Does anyone seriously think that this measure will reduce overall numbers of cases of child abuse because I can't see it :confused:

[AengusOg]

In direct response to the op's post, I must say that I find it sad that there are men out there who feel it is too dangerous to be caring about children, and who may rather avoid helping a child for fear of his actions being misconstrued bu society.

I know how that feels, because I too am a man, and I also have had these decisions to make in my life..........ie whether to offer a child guidance, or a lift home in perfectly transparent circumstances.

The trouble is, if I decide to leave that child standing alone in the ****ing rain, with darkness falling, when their parent (unusually) wasn't there to pick them up from the rural school bus, the next car along the road may contain a predatory sex offender who wouldn't be quite so mindful of the social consequences which may arise from stopping to speak to that child.

That predatory aspect of sexual offence against children is the crux of the matter, in my view. I believe those who would commit such atrocities are ever watchful for the opportunity which will allow them to make their move, and they are constantly pitting themselves against those who would try to prevent them from gratifying themselves with our innocent children.

While the non sex offenders among us are getting on with our daily lives, with the kids somewhere other than to the fore of our minds because we think they are safe at school/club/friend's house/play park, or even in our own garden, the sex predator is there, in the background, watching.

There is no doubt that our society must move against these people, and that police checks on all those who wish to work with minors and the vulnerable will do something to reduce the dangers to some, but we have to remember that the majority of people who live among us are decent, caring, and safe with our children.

Sexual predation is not a new phenomenon. It is as old as mankind. Now, however, there are more opportunities for the predators because children actually don't have the degree of protection they used to have. On paper they do, but physically/visually.................

This is partly due to the fragmented nature of our society/communities, partly to the toothless nature of our laws, and partly to the fact that those who would have gone out of their way to 'look after' them are now too fearful to get involved.

Far from protecting children, these things conspire to make them even more vulnerable.

I was asked to undergo a 'police check' so that I could be called upon to help our local primary school (which my elder son attends)........the usual things like transport assistance on trips, gardening, sports, and so on.........but I declined. The school secretary couldn't get her head round why I wouldn't want to help the school. I explained that I would love to help the school and felt that I had much to offer, but I had no intentions of working with other peoples' children as I had no desire to put myself in a vulnerable position. There are others like me in our community. By taking myself out of one vulnerable position I have put myself into another.

That is one of the sad aspects of this whole problem............fewer people getting involved means less likelihood of a cohesive community, which means the children are the losers once again.

Misappropriation of Human Rights law, insufficient punishment for offenders, alcohol/drug abuse, poverty, lack of communication, mistrust of the authorities, lack of backbone in government, incompetence of child protection bodies, and fear all conspire to create a favourable world for the predators.

What we need is punishment which suits the crime. The perpetrators of sexual atrocities against children should be locked up for the rest of their lives and fed bread and water.

[Wally]

I wish I had Aengus and Old woman's way with words!

I think you Aengus, and my OH feel the same way.

Paedophiles are manipulative and clever, we had one in our tiny village, he was like the pied piper. They occur everywhere and will slither around any legislation.

[classic_astra]

In a way being a paedophile is no different, and thus in this way no less acceptable, than being gay as it is simply an alternative sexuality.
x

i cant believe wat ive just read!!

[classic_astra]

My goodness. I cannot believe I have just read this. I actually cried after reading what you said.

I HAD TYPED A REPLY BUT HAVE DECIDED TO TAKE IT OUT. I'm not getting into this discussion. There's just one thing I want to say...

Puzzles it's the children who are the victim's. NOT the abusers/paedophiles. Im sorry and I don't mean to single you out, but I am absolutely disgusted with what you said. You would be wise to remember that it's the CHILDREN WHO ARE THE VICTIMS :(

i second this, how can you feel sorry for child abusers!?! as a victim of child abuse myself, and from a livery yard, its a senstive subject but im sure most of us can agree that all proven child abusers SHOULD rot in jail. end of.