Napping when hacking

[Zingy]

Aaaaggghhh!!! Attempted to hack Yog out today (emphasis on 'attempted'), and he was a complete pillock (as usual) and he's driving me mad :mad: Every 2 mins or less he stops dead and refuses to go any way but backwards. Failing that he twizzes round in circles. So today we've reversed into a fence and 3 trees :rolleyes: (marginally better than the time we reversed into a car :( )

How can I stop him doing it? Admittedly I don't ride him out much cos it's just too much of a trauma - if he's bad he's just plain dangerous (never ridden on the road since the car incident!). He's quite happy led. He does stop a fair amount unless it's somewhere he knows really well, but he'll generally walk on after a minute or so. Ridden he'll stop for 5 mins then take 2 strides and stop again. Bullying him will send him straight up in the air. I think it's only respect of someone on his back that keeps all 4 feet on the floor. Hacking out with someone else panics him and he gets more wound up if they carry on going while he prats about, but he'll never follow them. Doesn't matter which direction we go in - he's as daft on the way home, but he hates going anywhere he's never been before. I've long reined him out and he's fine with that, but get on him and it's like the world's going to end :rolleyes:

Would much appreciate any suggestions before one or both of us completely loses the plot!! :p

[Sammys Mum]

As much as it does seem like he is being just plain naughty and I know how ANNOYING napping can be he is actually just frightened. You need to show him that it's ok and that going out is great. When he stops and refushes to move walk him in a circle. Even if you just go round and round in circles keep him moving. Every step he takes forward reward him for lots, and I mean every single step. Even if it seems like your going now where its a long way to him! Keep talking to him constantly, reasurring him and praising him. If he goes backwards let him go BUT when he wants to stop going backwards keep backing him up and keep going back until you feel he's really fed up and will happily walk forward. When he spins round keep turning him round and round and round. Even when he wants to stop doing theses things, don't, make him keep going. It's called reverse pyschology (sp??)! Trust me it works and he'll soon get fed up of spinning and going backwards. It's just about perservering and rewarding him for every little step forward and not punishing him for napping just showing him where he should be going. Just turn him back in the direction you want to go. Instead of kicking him with both feet at the same time when you ask him to go forward kick with one at a time. It is putting less pressure on him. Make sure you don't get angry with him EVER about it because this will just reasure his fear. Just stay calm and quiet and give him the confidence to go forward. It will take time but he'll get better every time until he will go out one day and not even think about it. The main things to remember are just stay calm and quiet, NEVER get angry and punish him and reward every little step. Once he has his hacking sorted alone you should find you can go with anothr horse without any problems! Good Luck!! :p

[western]

well everytime the horse does that i would use a crop. I think that the horse thinks that it can get away with problems like that ,you just need to tell the horse right from wrong.

[Sammys Mum]

Western I'm not trying to start a disagreement but Horses are not naturally creatures that wont to displease us, horses do not nap because they just wanna be pains in the arse. Horses are nappy because they aren't secure to go forward alone. By hitting them you are reasuring their fear and will there for make the problem worse. You may get the horse a bit futher sooner but it will be in fear, you will never get it to hack alone happily always. Your avoiding the problem by over powering the horse. Just because we are in a position of power doesn't mean we should abuse it. If a horse is showing us signs of distress like Zingy's horse is by napping we should listen to them. Ignoring them never works. I'm not saying that you shouldn't use a crop, it may be used to back up the leg if the horse is really not listening but should never be used as a punishment. I don't think its just as simple as teaching them right from wrong. Alot of the reasons why we have "problem horses" is because people think horses need to be taught right from wrong, human right, horse wrong. It should be a partnership, 50/50. Thefore when your horse is telling you something you listen and deal with it sympatheticly not just by hitting it and ignoring it. You expect your horse to listen to you through your aids. Imagine how you'd feel if one day for no reason your horse never listen to you again and just went where evere it felt like when ever it pleased, you'd punish it and would not allow it. Yet when your horse needs you to listen to it, you ignore it and then you punish it by hitting it!! Imagine how confushed and frightened your horse feels.

[Zingy]

Thanks for the suggestions. I completely agree with you Sammys Mum - he is scared, I've no doubts on that one. He never gets hit for it, I tried it once when all else failed :o and I'd never do it again. He was worked way too much as a youngster being punished when he was scared or in pain, and he's the kind of horse who if you do it enough will give in. I never want him to get like that again. It took me a year to get to the point where he realised he wouldn't be punished for 'bad' behaviour and he could tell me when things weren't right. It gets so fraustrating sometimes, but if you ask this horse to turn himself inside out for you, he'd try. Just have to keep reminding myself of that.

The spinning round is a good idea, that could well work. If he gets silly when I lead him I have to distract him by backing up, making him go sideways etc, to get his attention back to me. So guess that's just the same thing but ridden. Can't back him up though - I tried it once and he will go over backwards. I'll try circling him, but how does that work if he wants to go one way and I want to go another? We'll end up doing the circle bit that suits him, but not my bit :D And half the time that's what sets him off, when he decides we're going one way and I don't agree. Sure he thinks I'll get lost :eek:

We're going out again tomorrow (feeling brave :p ), so I'll let you know how we get on!

[Sammys Mum]

He will get better he is just frightened but he'll get there in the end. With the circling you wanna go the way he's going but the thing that makes it worth it is when he's stopped spinning just keep him going, so even though your letting him get away with the spinning to start because you've made him keep going after he doesn't want to he'll be less likely to do it. Were you involved in an acciedent with him? Its just you said something about the car incident? Is this why he is so scared?
Don't worry about the going backwards, mine don't back up either!! Just go side ways or somewhere else instead just keep him moving. Let me know how 2moro goes? Good Luck!!:p

[Zingy]

Wasn't quite an accident - he was just having one of his neurotic moments in the middle of the road after seeing a wild mountain lion over the hedge ;) Car came up right behind us :mad: and as I squeezed him forwards he walked backwards :rolleyes: Car driver was a bit surprised - don't think she was anticipating being run into by a horse! Just decided after that there was no point doing it. He's really good in traffic, but I can't trust drivers to give enough room for him being a fool. And I can't trust him not to put the brakes on in the middle of the road and bring everything to a standstill :D

[Sammys Mum]

O right! Yeah I have that problem where I am. When I get certain young or problem horses in veen if they are 100% on the roads I can't hack them out because cars just don't leave enough room and don't respect them when their having their funny 5 minutes!!:rolleyes: I've had a couple of very close calls wit cars and it doesn't really have to be an acciedent where anybody is injured but it really puts you off doesn't it!:eek: Any way let me know how 2moro Goes!!:p

[Dizzy]

If he leads out ok, have you tried leading him out tacked up, then riding him back?

[artemis]

havn't time to read all the posts, but have you had his saddle, teeth & back checked?

[ros]

Merlin was very like that when I first got him - one step forward and three steps back, spinning round, planting...

I had no choice other than to ride through it because I had nowhere to school and no-one else to ride out with. So I just had to get on with it, which was fortunate because if I'd been able to make excuses and take the soft option I think I probably would have! But it did get much better after a few weeks.

He's still a bit daft if we go on strange rides, but I know it's just insecurity. He doesn't like lanes with very high banks, or wooded areas, because he doesn't feel safe. He still jumps if someone unexpectedly appears from a gateway. And he still plants occasionally if he sees something very odd.

But I think we now have enough of a bond for him to know that I won't take him anywhere dangerous; I always allow him to stop and look at things if he wants to (well, there's no rush, is there? ;) ) and often I pull him up myself and we have a look together. I NEVER hit him because he just gets into a tizzy. And if I need to get off and lead him I don't care - mind you, I've only had to do that a couple of times when there were cars waiting for him to make his mind up :rolleyes: And once recently when he definitely did NOT want to pass some electric fencing that was shorting out; then it was a question of get off or get carted :D But fortunately he decided that if I went past first he might just scuttle after me.

I don't think Merlin will ever change; he's extremely good in traffic which makes up for any number of little harmless spooks at other things. I'd love to believe that I'm one of those amazing people in whom horses put 100% of their trust and will follow anywhere, but of course I'm not, so I'll settle for what I've got, which isn't too bad on the whole. But it's taken me three years to get where I feel I am with him now, so it certainly wasn't some magical overnight job!

[Zingy]

Originally posted by artemis
have you had his saddle, teeth & back checked?

More times than I care to remember! :D Long story, but everything's fine!

Think you've hit the nail on the head there ros. Because I don't have to ride out I generally don't. So he doesn't do it enough to get better. The time when I had him somewhere where there was no road work at all and the hacking was lovely I took him out 3 times a week and he was fine so long as I didn't take him too far from where he knew. Thing is since then he's not been ridden much and I think he's got really dependant on me being on the ground. When I started riding him again last year he was really funny - just wanted to follow someone round the school, but they had to be on foot. The fact he's now worse hacking than he used to be is probably just an extension of that. He's ok in the school now but just gets really wound up being out. Tried riding him a few weeks ago in the school first then taking him out. You can walk from there to the front gate in 20 seconds. Took us 10 mins!

[Zingy]

Had a brainwave this morning and came up with the secret weapon :eek: bach flower remedies! Gave him his usual dosage of about a quarter of a bottle before going out this afternoon and he was as good as gold :) Walked up to my friends yard to meet her then went out for about an hour. He only got really nappy when we passed their yard on the way back and I asked him to carry on on his own, which was fair enough. Even then it was only a couple of minutes and he was just stood, not going backwards or sideways. I was very impressed :D Was like riding a completely different horse to yesterday.

Was rather grateful to be on the floor though (having just gone through a very narrow gate) when he saw a couple of mares in the field (he likes big women ;) ). They got treated to the full arab stallion display, though I'm not sure they were very impressed :rolleyes:

[AJB]

Roz-its good to know taht time helps_ I hve not had bailey at year yet so maybe I am expecting too much too soon-hes only 6 and green-however im interested to know what bach's remedy you used and how much did you use-when you say half his normal amount???
my horse is very nappy on his own and the last time I took him out alone in the winter he took off back to the yard on the road:eek: however managed to stop him and I agree it is just fear and would never beat him-although have been told I should have don-but he was just soo happy to be away from scary rubbish and all that-however want to start going out again -hes fine in company but I want to get the nappy ness under control-have started in hand stuff but would be interested in your herbal and he is on Relax in the winter but as no feed now no supplements...

[ros]

Oh jolly good! So you'll be up for it again tomorrow, then? :D

[ros]

AJB - yes, this trust-building is a two-way thing, and I reckon sometimes it just takes as long as a piece of string :D

I'd be interested to know which Bach remedy Zingy used, too. I'd guess probably Rescue Remedy, which is a good all purpose one; but you can use Mimulus for known fears, or Rock Rose for sudden panic attacks, or a combination of both. And it often doesn't hurt for the rider to take a remedy as well! (Probably Mimulus again for this kind of situation.) People might be a bit sceptical about the flower remedies, but I swear Honeysuckle got me through Foot & Mouth.

PS Sometimes a nice big glass of port or something has just the same effect before a hairy ride!!! (I think Jennie Loriston-Clarke calls it dutch courage?)

[floppy]

eeee...know this problem but my problem doesnt stem from an accident it stems from a stubborn mare.
You want to lead her through the woods - no problem. As soon as you park yourself in the saddle she refuses to move and if she does move its only backwards.

i have owned my mare for a year now and its getting better. In the beginning i tried everything and it was so stressful i stuck to only going out riding with company and then trying to ride forwards.

The next thing i thought was to give treats but that doesnt work if you cant get the horse forwards.

then i resorted to taking a small bag of my horses favourite feed with me in my jacket and i would in the beginning walk her halfway round the route, give her a feed and ride her back home (riding direction house was never a problem)
then once she cottoned on to the fact that she was going to get a feed she started letting me riding her out. It takes alot of time and you always have to make sure never to feed them in the same place and in the beginning you have to stick with riding the same route because trying to ride other routes all the time worries them...keep it short and sweet in the begining.
i made it a point to ride her out 3days one after anohter, then one day rest then the rest of the week schooling or riding out with other horse, then i alternated giving her the small feed on the 3 days. In the beginning she got it all 3 days, in the end she got it only on the first and maybe the last day. Now she doesnt get any feed.

My mare is stilll a bit nappy but not so bad. none of this running backwards or spinning around.

I lead her out for the first 5 mins and then i get on and coax her forwarrds and then after she covered some good ground (usually at a corner when you have to turn left or right to continue the hack) she gets a treat and a good cuddle. Sometimes in the first 5 mins or so of being ridden she stops and wont moved forwards but then i dismount again lead her passed whatever is worrying her and get back on and off we go no problems.

I now have 3 different tracks i can ride no problems and whenever i go out alone with her and come back she always get s small bowl of pony nuts or something.

She has improved alot over the past year and at least i know that she isnt being nasty when out hacking she is insecure of leaving her friends behind (i say that because before she went into the herd she didnt nap and that was the first 2 months of owning her)

[Zingy]

AJB/ ros, I've used rescue remedy in the past, but couldn't find it yesterday :o so I used wild rose & aspen - 3 squirts of each. Think recommended dosage is about 10 drops - he probably had about 30, but it only works on him at that level! Others react much more sensitively to it - I had someone try it on her mare who would fling herself round her stable 24 hours a day. 10 drops in her water and she was quiet as anything. Find with Yog he's better with the separate stuff to rescue remedy - think I got him stuff described as 'for fear of the unknown', 'lack of confidence' etc :D Just picked the 3 that were closest to my interpretation of the cause, only 1 of them's out of date now so he only got 2 yesterday :p

They are really useful (when I remember about them though ;) ). You don't need to give a feed - they might lick it off your hand or just drip it onto a treat. Though when I did that yesterday some bloke walked up and asked me if I was worming them. What?????!! As if! Worming requires me, the fence and the floor to get splattered with white paste. Not sure about the horses, but everything else is tapeworm free! :D

[Cathy Reynolds]

Zingy, you have my sympathy. We have been to hell and back with benny the pony. He is slowly getting better, but it is a terribly slow process. If Zog gets uptight hacking out in company get someone to help with a 'mechanical horse'. There is nothing Benny likes better to go out with two kids - one on a bike and one riding, then swop half-way through the ride. It's been a real confidence giver for him.

[AJB]

Thanks for that Zingy-one more bit or information-where do you get it from ??? we have a health food shop near us?? I have used rescue remedy for me before but as Ros says oftern find "Dutch Courage" as good!!-I certainly ride more confidently coming back from the pub but not sure if that cos the horse is more tired or not!!!

[floppy]

Boots sell bach remedies