Collapsing horse (not one of mine thankfully) - any ideas?

[Esther.D]

A friend of mine has a gorgeous 16hh ex-eventer who has been collapsing when he is worked? I was wondering whether anyone has any ideas? The vets are flummoxed at the moment.

He is a 9 year old gelding who was retired from eventing due to arthritis in his fetlocks. Prior to that he was a successful novice level event horse and was also regularly hunted. My friend took him on as a hack as he is unfit for jumping etc. However although his arthritis is a lot better with the light work and plenty of turnout he has started collapsing (she has had him for about a year without any problems before this).

He can do ground work - lunging etc and can charge about the field but when he is asked to work harder - eg under saddle - then he collapses onto his side:(

So far the vets can find nothing physically wrong with him although they are still trying.

Has anyone heard of anything like this before? He is such a beautiful horse and a dream to ride (very well schooled..amazing) it seems such a shame that after one problem finished his career, and almost got him put down by his previous owners, that another one should come up just as he was getting better :(

I'm afraid I haven't all the specific details as it is not my horse and I can only pass on what her boyfriend told me over email so it is not very specific.

[Slewgal]

Could it be he is just trying to say 'no more' or that he dosen't want to?
My aunt knows a person who's horse falls over whenver you try to tighten the girth, simply because he dosen't like it.

[Bebe]

Can't imagine he's falling over just to get out of work, horses are at their most vulnerable when they're down on the ground - that's why the old cowboy trainers used to throw horses down on the ground to break them - ultimate domination.

I'd look into maybe a nerve being pinched by something, a blockage in the airways (maybe a cyst that moves about a bit and sometimes blocks, sometimes doesn't), something of that nature.

Sounds serious though, I wouldn't be riding the horse until a diagnosis had been made. Even if the horse doesn't hurt itself when it goes down, it's only a matter of time until the rider is.

[Esther.D]

Bebe - I will pass your ideas on. I too thought that it was unlikely for it to be him trying to get out of something - I have seen ponies try tricks like that but they lay down rather than collapsed and he is not the kind of horse to play tricks.

Oh and they are not riding him or doing any strenuous work until they know what is the matter.

[Bebe]

I've known a couple of ponies (never horses!) that would just lay down in the middle of the path or road if they'd had enough, but it was like they were just lying down for a nap rather than falling.

I hope his owners can get to the bottom of the problem, he sounds like a really nice horse.

[Casey76]

Could the horse possible have epilepsy, which can be idiopathic, late onset? (i.e. appear out of the blue)?

[Esther.D]

Rupert lay down once when we had a slight 'debate' about lunging - but he laid himself down carefully and he is also 13.2hh and can be cheeky! I had a shetland foal once who would roll over onto his back when I wanted to pick out his hooves - he thought he could get out of it that way but he was wrong I just grabbed an upside-down hoof and carried on:D

Gino is a stunning horse, he is dapple grey and extremely smart. I rode him last year and it was amazing - I have never ridden a dressage horse before and I felt like he knew more than I did (dressage was never my strong point)! He is also very even-tempered and good to handle. I really hope they get to the bottom of it as the poor lad has not had a good time with his health recently - he got mud fever last winter too :( I also have a horrible feeling that if the problem is even remotely linked to his legs (not necessarily with the arthritis) then it will not be covered by his insurance so it could work out very pricey too :(

Oh Casey we must have cross-posted - I hadn't thought of that...I should have done my father is an epileptic so I grew up familiar with it:rolleyes:

Keep the suggestions coming - you never know if I pass them along one might give the vet a new idea to try....

[Big Ears]

Could it be a deep seated tumour in his spine?

Or heart problems?

Really shouldn't ride him again till you know for sure as too dangerous for your friend, and the horse.

[Lgd]

The fact that it only happens with work screams cardiac cause to me. Arrhythmias are not unusual in horses, but are often asymptomatic other than poor performance issues. If he does it consistently when exercised try to get him to do it in front of the vet or might have to go a bit more up-market and arrange for an ambulatory cardiac monitor to try and catch the rythym disturbance.

[galadriel]

Something else to look at (like Lgd said, have him do it in front of a vet):
What's his attitude when he goes down? Is he straining to breath, panicking, whole body limp, extremely tense through his back, just losing strength in one hock and going down, what?

The fact that he can be lunged but not ridden makes me think it has something to do with carrying weight--as already suggested, pinching nerve in the back, or some such, or possibly too much stress on the arthritic joints.

Is it at all possible that now that he's not eventing full time, he's lost muscle across the back, his saddle doesn't fit anymore, and is pressing down so hard on his withers that he can't take it?

[larri]

A pony I used to Ride when I had my first job suddenly started dropping to his knees ( very disconcerting when cantering...wheeee oof!)
He was diagnosed with a heart problem - no idea what it actually was though

larri

[Wally]

We had a horse who had arythmia (sp) he would pass out on exersion. But even I could hear it through the old stethescope, so the vet would pick up on that one instantly.

[Esther.D]

Just a quick note as I am at work.

Have just recieved an update on Gino. Turns out he had a old tendon injury undisclosed by the previous owner and not visible at the vetting.

In the current owner's own words he:

"was treated by the same vet who is seeing him at the moment (so still has his medical history etc). anyway after the accident the vet told her to rest him for 6 months, apparently he had injured his back tendon. 3 months later she evented him again and had done some form of irripairable damage and basically trashed him :( what we are anoyed at is 1) we were not told that he had the tendon injury by either her or the vet, 2) she ruined a very good horse 3) we were sold the animal who was dangerous to the rider!"

Can't really tell you any more as this may turn into a court case as the seller wrote a letter to them (at the time of sale) stating that "although he couldnt be jumped/evented he was ok for a novice ride / gentle hack"


Why do people do this - she has ruined a good horse through impatience to event again, and she has caused the new owners heartache and money trying to identify the problem and she has put the riders life in danger (he had her hospitalised after collapsing on top of her - leaving her riding hat in three pieces!- luckily she was ok but concussed, bruised and very shaken).
:mad:

[Bebe]

Poor horse, to think that he's now permanently injured because some thoughtless person couldn't wait another 3 months. And for him to be sold on without the problem being disclosed is just awful.

It sounds like pure luck that the new owner wasn't hurt in any way. Can see why they would want to take it to court, hope they get some kind of justice.

[artemis]

If she has that letter then she should have a good case.

Collapsing still sounds like cardiac to me. There must me lack of oxygen to the brain caused by some abnormality. Could be lots of things. Probably very expensive to find out what it is.

"Collapsing" is very different from a stubborn pony lying down because it doesn't want to go where you want it to.

[Esther.D]

They have contacted Trading Standards and been told they don't have a case????? Apparently they would have only had a case if they contacted them as soon as they bought him - however this problem has only just shown up now so how could they have known about it earlier:confused:Can't say too much as this may still end up in court...but it does seem very strange them refusing it on that basis.

[Miriam]

Glad to hear that is all it is and fingers crossed that is all it is.

I was talking to one of the girls on the yard about it this morning as she is very knowlegable (more than me) and I had heard of horses collapsing like you said but could not think what it was (I did know it was not the heart though). Turns out it was 'Kissing Vertabrae' something to get him checked out for if it continues. On the bad note they have to be put to sleep or if it was a mare then it could have either been 'kissing vertabrae' (in which case the same thing - put down) or she said it could be the ovaries which would mean maybe removing one or both.

[Esther.D]

It is good that it seems to be the tendon injury rather than heart etc...however.....the vet has now said that he will never be fit to ride again and will need to be totally retired (at 9 years old):( :( I will let you know whether there are any other developments.