training in genral

[lamprellsarah]

monty's schooling has been coming on quiete well, his spookiness has died out and he hasn't reared
this is the 4th time i have properly schooled him and he did fairly i do find bending correctly and getting him to stretch down into the bit hard, simply because he's a polo horse and never been taught like this before but he is very capable and can look magnificant.
last lesson though i decided to school over a pole, i can't even pull one out without him going hyper, he jogs and goes sideways anywhere near it, and when i try to walk him over i make him walk then he suddenly leaps!!!!
hes is a fantastic jumper, and if you hold him back he does little rear and goes sideways until you loosen the reins then he goes flat out and jumps huge!!!!
any tips in the pole section and the jumping????

[casey]

Hi there, it sounds like your doing fab work with your boy.
A couple of suggestions for pole work.

1, make him walk. Dont loosen the rein to let him fly over the pole. This will cause problems later on.

2, If he jumps the pole let him. Watch you dont catch him in the mouth. He will soon calm down.

3, When you have gone over the pole, walk 3 steps and turn him on the spot and come back over. Repeat this as many times as necessary until he calms down.

When he is calm you can do in trot and canter etc. Remember for work later on.... School inbetween fences. Bending, leg yeilding etc so your boy is always wondering what your going to do next. It will keep his mind focused and on you.

[casey]

Sorry I forgot to mention, if he protests and he will as your making him work. Ignore it, and carry on the excercise. If he throws himself about, just continue what your doing. Keeping him on a straight line and he will soon learn that its easier to do as you say. If he doesn't go forward slap him with your legs, then forget about it and carry on.

[kedwards]

Another approach would be to try simple desensitization. If he gets nervous even being around them, then just start by pulling them down and schooling in the arena around them. Keep your distance until he doesn't seem to ignore them. Begin to approach slowly, but turn away as soon as he shows signs of looking even slightly on edge. Don't make a big dramatic turn, but just circle or bend quietly as though that's what you intended to do all along. Before and after these sessions, do the same thing while leading him. If he can approach them calmly while being led, then lead him over them at the walk. Only introduce the poles under saddle after he's taking them quietly while being led and approaching them quietly under saddle.

[lamprellsarah]

thanx both of you!! cross fingers he will learn lol!!

[DITZ]

Hi I was taught to give him his head and if he flies over, it he flies over it. Sounds like its just a confidence thing certainly was with mine. Mine used to go berserk over a trotting pole (single) and used to just charge at it. I was told whatever I do I must just let him go at his own pace because horses will sometimes rush at things in order to get them over quickly if they're scared. He will calm down eventually when he gets used to it and his confidence grows. You can compound the issue by having too tight a hold on him and making him fear that too.

[casey]

I completly disagree with Ditz on the "let them go at their own speed." Where exactly does the horse learn from that. Repitition is the key with training horses, if you repeatedly let it fly over a poll it will, and when the fences get bigger, you will be asking for BIG trouble as the horse starts to crash and refuse.
You must always be consistant when training a horse. You cant accept a behaviour one day ie as above and expect the horse to engage his quarters the next.
The only thing you will achieve in letting your boy go over at his own speed, is that he has a valid reason to not trust his rider.
I have seen horses bounce a double due to that, and its not a pretty sight i can tell you!

[DITZ]

caseys you are welcome to disagree but i can only speak from experience. I have weekly lessons with an AI instructor who not only knows her stuff but also used to own my horse so knows him very well. The reason it was suggested to let him go at his on speed was that he was really lacking in confidence and he was rushing the jumps and trotting poles because he wanted to get it over quickly. Pulling him up would have been counterproductive making him fear it even more and making the experience a not altogether pleasant one for him.

The first time we started jump training my instructor came into the menage and put one pole down on the ground. He quite literally saw it and charged at it. I was not expecting this and tried to pull him up and slow him down - having not been told otherwise. The second time round he was given the reins and was slightly slower till by the end he was going over it calmly and we were able to put it up to a very small low cross pole - all by letting him find his own pace and speed. Once he realised he could do it he feared it less and took it slower and slower and calmer and calmer.

Maybe this isnt the key to all horses I only know it worked with mine quite quickly. I can only offer my experience for what its worth. I know that sometimes you need to try more than one suggestion and this is mine and I stand by it.

[casey]

All I can say is you must judge a rider by the way in which his/her horse performs, there is a famous quote that says look for the problem in the mind of the rider, than in the body of a horse.

[DITZ]

Perhaps you could explain how a horse who lacks confidence has its problems rooted in my psyche?

FYI - horse also rushed for my instructor when she had him and whilst I can admit to many faults of my own she has very little if any.

[lamprellsarah]

the thought of totally letting him have his head scares the hell out of me, the first couple of times i rode him and jumped him i did give him to much head too early, it ended up us not stopping and whirling around dangerously in circle afterward and after you have done that a few time you can lose your confidence!! even for someone who is confident like me!! poles are the same i don't feel he woudl benefit what so ever in me letting him do what he likes!!!
also he has been jumping for many a while it's pure excitment and eagerness, if you aren't heading for the jump you may well be with monty because he sometime pulls you into it!!
recently i have been jumping him around 3 ft and although he goes silly, i hold him back without stopping the fowards motion then a couple strides away urge him on this produces a neater jump less scrambling and i can pull up better afterwards!!

[casey]

Well if you knowledgeable, experienced instructor couldn't sort it out, how exactly do you expect members of this board to?

I dont wish to engage in petty mud slinging, and I for one am always willing to learn new ways to work in harmony with my horses. What I am saying though, is whether you like it or not horses DO learn from repitition, and 99% of problems with horses does indeed lay with the rider.

Not to discredit all AI's as there are some very good one's out there, ( I consider myself in that group, not only from past achievements but in my current form.)but there are some that dont know certain way to improve problems that occur. You only have to look at past posts to see how dissatisfied members of this board have been with certain AI's.

[casey]

Lamprellsarah, the above post wasn't meant for you girl. Glad to see your getting your lad sorted.

[lamprellsarah]

i was going to say!! i don't have an instructor i have never been able to afford lessons!!
i know now some people will say that i should have lessons, but i don't feel i am uncable of teaching him, many people have said what an improvement he is making BUT like all things this takes time!!
if i did go and try and find an instructor i feel i would get though a few!! lol, i think i would be quiete particualar and have to have one that had similar thoughts and views to me!!

[DITZ]

casey i really have no idea why you have taken such exeption on this and now moved onto discrediting my trainer. I simply offered a suggestion to lamprellsarah of something that worked for me thats all. Sorry you feel so strongly that what I am doing is wrong but it did work for me. Each case is different but the idea of this forum is an exchange of ideas surely? And yes if I cannot sort something out for myself and my instructor can't either then I dont feel silly about asking other peoples advice but thats not what I was doing on this thread anyway.

I hadnt realised my suggestion was so radical or offensive as to warrant this kind of response. Whilst I appreciate horses do learn from repetition there are clearly other ways too as in my case. And to say that 99% of problems lie with the rider is absurd. If that were the case there would be no need for a 'training of the horse' section only that of the rider.

There is little point in continuing this as we will never agree but please let other people air and share their views, opinions and experiences without shouting them down in such a personal manner.

[Tootsie4U]

Hi all -

I've come into this late and it seems to be a three way conversation but, Ill put my own two cents in also! :D

Ditz - what works for you, works for you and your horse. Be happy! To support your claim, I know of one horse who actually goes better over jumps with a loose rein. He is what we call "chlostrophobic". However, every other horse I've ever come to know would be dangerous with a loose rein... without knowing the horse and seeing it perform, it would be dangerous to tell a rider to give her horse a loose rein over a jump.

Horses do not come with a program book. What works for one will most likely not work for another. So in that, any suggestion is a good one. There is no way that is supposed to work all the time on every horse. If you belive that, then consider yourself lucky to have horses who are all identicle!

I have one other question - why on earth would you push your horse to do somethign it is desperately trying to tell you that it isnt comfortable doing?!?!?! Anxiety over jumps, rushing are all signs that the horse isnt secure in himself. A horse cannot learn anything if he is afraid of it. The fear instinct is too strong and even though you can make him do it, it doesnt mean that its gonna be good. Do him a favor, get out of the saddle and help him. He may learn to love to jump one day, but it sounds like he needs to be encouraged.

As someone suggested above, work him NEAR the rails, but not over them. Then gradully, have him trot over some poles while you lunge him. As he becomes calmer in that, then lunge him over some small cavelletis. Then as he gets better, FREE LUNGE him over some bigger jumps. This may take months, but going slowly and with successive steps will build his confidence. Especially, since he can master it without the addage of a rider on his back!!!!!!

I do agree that most of the time, the rider will negatively influence the horse but I dont think thats what this is. He just needs some encouragement over those jumps- start him again, but slowly

[casey]

Perhaps Ditz your being a little oversensitive. Not once have I 'attacked' you personally. In fact, from the other post it was you who insinuated I must use brutal methods on my horses to train them.
All i am saying, is....... again........ Horses need guide lines and consistancy in order to achieve their maximum potential.

What on earth gave you the impression I was 'attacking' you.

Wern't we, as YOU say, exchanging ideas?

[Tootsie4U]

Oh Dear is right! People want to read about horses, not your personal differences! Thats what PM is for ;) Thank you !

[DITZ]

'Attacked'? Where have I said you have 'attacked' me? I have read and re-read my post and never mentioned attack. Your putting words in my mouth now so lets just drop it hey?

[casey]

Oh terribly sorry, it was "shouting you down"

Lets agree to disagree, after all everyone has different ways of training, and I will do my upmost not to challenge anything you say again. Good luck and I hope your problems are sorted out soon.

[DITZ]

Apology accepted

[lamprellsarah]

Tootsie is this for me 'Do him a favor, get out of the saddle and help him. He may learn to love to jump one day, but it sounds like he needs to be encouraged.

because as i said


QUOTE: also he has been jumping for many a while it's pure excitment and eagerness, if you aren't heading for the jump you may well be with monty because he sometime pulls you into it!!

and he jumps everything small dips puddles anything and everything out on hacks he's very good but only in front!!!
yesterday HUGE shock he was like a riding school horse took him over a set of jumps and he was like plod plod plod pop!!!

I don't own him i loan him his owner vert funny about certain things and i properly aren't aloud to lunge him in had schooling i maybe!!!

[Tootsie4U]

Too many times we underestimate the advantages of ground work.... even on a well trained horse.....

Sorry I couldnt help you. Its tougher when you loan a horse becuase you have to respect the wishes of the owner... I wish you lots of luck otherwise :)

[lamprellsarah]

yeah i know!!!
i personally LOVE ground training it is just so much fun and you can watch your horse and how it moves and achieve so much!!!