Dressage Lean

[CityGirl]

This came up in an earlier thread but I was wondering about it. In a correct dressage position - should you be leaning slightly back?
If you take a look at this link - you'll see the rider has a distinct lean back:
http://dreamhorse.com/show_horse.php?form_horse_id=300437
or this one:
http://dreamhorse.com/show_horse.php?form_horse_id=286477

From my reading, I always thought that you were looking for a straight line from head/hip/heel. Is that just a classical position? The reason I ask is that I've started riding at a dressage barn & they are constantly telling me I need to "lean back". But doesn't this throw your center of balance off?

Thoughts?

[Tootsie4U]

Ever hear an instructor use the term: riding the ribcage? Someone could probably explain this better than me, but essentially this means to ride NOT on the forehand and WITH efforts of impulsion. Someone please help me here..... :D

Anyway, if you came from a hunt barn, your tendency will definately be to lean a bit more forward and with a shorter leg/tighter leg than the dressage people do. SO, maybe that is why they are asking you to sit back. I did just as you and went the hj route first and then when I switched it was like a different language. But, I learned faster and improved faster in the dressage way.... Do you like it?

[maverick927]

I have seen that too and most dressage riders seen to do it. I think it helps the horse move correctly on the bit, but the rider has to be taught to do it properly or they could end up with a rather bad habit.

[Tootsie4U]

And, these people are riding $50,000 horses, and winning USDF shows, so they must be doing something right :D

[Dressage_Luvr]

well, you never want to be behind the vertical, which i think one of those riders is in the pics, u want to be on it, or very slightly infront.

the reason it feels like youre leaning way back, is because youre not used to it. at first i used to think that too, that i must be about to touch his bum with my head!

the reason for sitting back, is to allow the hrose to work out from under you, and it makes it easier to push from the hind legs, and get off the front end.

[Heather]

HI there,

Leaning behind the vertical is not only not Classical, horrible to look at, but positively damaging to the horse's back. Get a friend to sit on a saddle on a saddle horse, and place you hand under the back of the saddle, between the panle and teh saddle horse. Now get your friend to sit up in the ear/shoulder/hip/heel line of balance, and then to lean back even slightly. Feel the pressure on your hand? The horse has a reflex oint there which will cause him to drop his back when pressure is applied- the exact opposite of what you want ! It can also cause bruising and tightening of the back.

So avoid leaning back at all costs!

Heather

[CityGirl]

the reason for sitting back, is to allow the hrose to work out from under you, and it makes it easier to push from the hind legs, and get off the front end.

I'm with you on the theory but then aren't you running the risk of driving him out from under you with your seat?


Tootsie - Yes, I do like it a lot actually. I'm really enjoying finetuning the aids & I certainly didn't get that at my h/j place. That being said, I really want to do eventing some day so I'll be back to the h/j sooner or later.

[CityGirl]

Heather -
Just read your post after I had already replied. Thank you as always - it didn't make sense to me to lean back (I felt all out of alignment & was sitting back on my seatbones, making it all but impossible for me to get a "deep" seat).
I will attempt to avoid the "lean back" and continue on my quest for that holy grail of seats - the classical:)

[galadriel]

I suspect that Tootsie's comment is pretty accurate--if you are leaning forward slightly, you need to sit such that you *feel* you are leaning back in order to sit, in fact, straight. "Lean back" may simply mean "sit up straight" in this instance. You may wish to ask--and if you can, get someone to videotape you so you can *see* where you are as compared to where you need to be :) (Beg, borrow, steal a video camera, beg, borrow, steal someone to work it ;))

[CityGirl]

Galadriel: The new place I ride has mirrors on all the walls so I can check myself plus I have the luxury of having an instructor on the ground to check me & who takes pics of me every few weeks for training purposes. That being said, I'm sure in my case, I am leaning too far forward & that's why I'm being reprimanded:)

However, I have defintely noticed the real high-level dressage riders at the barn (& it's a BIG TIME dressage barn) have a definite lean backwards when they're riding & I was wondering why that is. As usual, I've been "enlightened" by this board:)

[Tootsie4U]

I read an article on it awhile back. I'll see if I can find it again. Gimme a sec.....

[Tootsie4U]

http://www.horse-sense.org/archives/2001013.phtml


I think thats it.

Essentially, they want to be off the forehand and "pushing" the hindquarters from underneath. In my opinon, and what I always thought was that if a horse is off the forehand, forward, engaged and round, his back will reach up to connect with your seat. I would think that the horse would prefer this rather than a rider perched on his front shoulders causing him to be downhill on the forehand. However, Heather mentions a pressure point back there. I also think that its not the lean that is the key. Its the contact it puts on the seatbones in the saddle. If someone is leaning so much that the cantle is digging in her back, thats obviously wrong and definately messing up their balance.

But, hey, I could be way wrong here. I have only been riding for 13 months you know :p

I have emailed my instructor (USDF/USAE certified and a fourth level rider) to see what her reasoning is. You really have my brain working overtime on this one Citygirl ;)

Toots

[Tootsie4U]

"Pricey horse...

Actually, if you draw a line - straight from the back of her heal to middle
of her hip to elbow to shoulder to ear - she actually is just about straight.
Yes the photo makes it appear that she is leaning back, but if you are riding
these guys their movement is so great that you would definitely need to sit
back further so you're not thrown forward with the horse's natural gait. "


That doesnt help too much :(

[nix]

Tootsie4u ... was she looking at the same photos as those in the dreamhorse link posted here? I was just wondering because I actually drew a line through ear-shoulder-hip-heel and the first is dramatically behind the vertical and the latter is also behind the vertical to a lesser degree.

Any imbalance, whether forwards or backwards, is going to affect the horse's way of going and as Heather has said tipping back causes compression on a vulnerable part of the spine and is possibly even worse (for the horse's physical anatomy) than leaning slightly forward. This is why the ear-shoulder-hip-heel alignment is so important to aid the horse's balance whatever level the horse is working at.

The only reason I can imagine that some top riders are behind the vertical like that is that is how they were always taught to sit to the horse's movement. Also, they are lucky enough to have expensive, talented horses with good conformation who are able to withstand rider imbalances.

[Tootsie4U]

I pasted the link into the email, so I assume she at least glanced at it. :confused:

Anyway, I have seen more top level dressage riders ride in this way than those that dont. Granted, they are riding 4th level/grand prix horses who's gaits are unreal, so maybe there is truth in saying the seat is compromised to be able to sit to the trot. Afterall, all if not most upper level tests are done sitting.

I still stand behind my reasoning that it has to do more with the positioning of the seatbones rather than the lean itself.

Hopefully someone will fill me in soon because this is really bugging me now....

Citygirl, how about asking these new instructors why they encourage you to lean back. Bring up some of the points discussed here (compression on the back, off the forehand, etc.) and see what they say. At least they will be impressed with you and how much you've been thinking about your lessons. You'll graduate to a "special" student - because every instructor loves teaching enthused and insightful riders!

[CityGirl]

Toots-
I'm glad to see it's bugging you too - it's been driving me crazy!;)
As far as asking my instructor - it's a bit compliated. My usual instructor actually likes my seat (she's h/j but moved us to a dressage barn b/c she thought I needed to work in that area). It was the PSG level rider whom I just started taking dressage from that kept correcting me & I thought it might be a bit cheeky of me to start ?ing her given I know NOTHING about dressage & she's an expert! She wasn't exactly the warmest & fuzziest person to start with...:)
I'll sniff around & see if I can find anyone open to chatting w/a novice like me. I'll keep you posted.....

[Tootsie4U]

Oh, please do!

I asked around last night to some of my horsey friends and I still don't have a definate answer. The common responce was : "to push the horse out from under them" but that still doesnt explain the mechanics.

Dont forget, you're paying for their services. Part of their service "contract" is to answer your questions. Believe me, my DQ stereotyped boss sounds like the woman you describe and she wouldnt risk losing that $check$ for the sake of some "novice" rider's questions... :D Also, dont forget, you cant learn if you dont understand what you're being taught! *wink wink*

[kelsey]

Since I have moved to a dressage facility, I have found out that there are so many nuances and subtleties to riding that you can't say that any one particular static position should be maintained at all times.

The best book I have read on the seat is by Suzanne van Dietz (sp?) - it is very technical but it has helped me tremendously in understanding my trainer's approach.

CityGirl - I have a lot of friends who event - I would say that their riding styles actually have more to do with dressage than with hunter/jumper. In fact, two of them are at my barn and their results have improved tremendously since they started doing a lot more dressage-type work.

[galadriel]

Hey, kelsey, long time no see! :)