weight restrictions.

[Janette]

Now I am not a stick insect - by any stretch of the imagination, but under the layers of nice bouncy fat, I'm a pretty supple person, and boy, can I run! You should see me in an inhand class - right round the ring - no probs. I love riding, andmy daughter's riding instructiors reckons I CAN ride. - not a bad admission from an instructor.
However, the riding school has had a weight restriction slapped on it by the insurance people, which means they won't accept me for lessons any more. I can see this from the insurance point of view, but it is very frustrating. I knw that this the incentive I need to lose weight and expose those rippling muscles to the world, but boy, am I mad. Moan over.

[maverick927]

Oh that would be so annoying.

The most annoying part is that horse riding is exercise so surely the insurance people would be better letting the heavier people ride to loose weight, or else insurance will increase as people drop dead due to heart attacks.

i know thatt here should be a limit at some point as we can't really expect our equine friends to carry a 25 stone person for an hour, but surely some big Shire could carry someone who was slightly too heavy.

I could probably rant for ages too about a topic like this, and I feel sorry for the people who are denied the joys of riding, for any reason.

[eml]

Im sorry to hear that Janette. Insurance companies are getting more fussy each year, ours impose an upper and lower age on riders!

[Wally]

I fail to see how weight would affect them, I would challenge the insurance company and ask them to justify things.

[Peace]

Does this insurance cover the horses or the students in case of accident? If the horses, an absolute weight limit is just illogical, since of course the weight they carry varies with breed and build. If it's for the students, I don't understand how a heavy person is any more likely to have an accident than a thin one. I would think those of us with a little more natural padding would be safer!:)

[james]

I was looking at a riding centre in England today with a view of doing a short course and their weight limit is only 12.5 stones! I am a 150 miles / week wafer-thin cyclist and I still weigh 11.5. Doesn't leave much room for the rest of the population.

[LindaAd]

I can see why riding schools put a limit on - they don't want their horses to carry too much weight.

But insurance companies! Just part of a general trend towards avoiding paying out.... I'm beginning to wonder if it wouldn't be better just to put the money into a savings account.

Janette, I think you should get the school to ask the insurance company about this, and maybe change their insurance.

[Janette]

Fell ponies and Highlands are bred to carry upwards of 18 stone! The insurance people say that heavier people are more likely to hurt themselves if they fall off. The ironic thing is that I wanted lunge lessons to deepen my seat, and help prevent falling off, because I've come off Star a couple of times lately, and felt I needed some proffesional help. The funniest thing is, a slimmimg mag is promoting horse riding as being good for posture, muscle strngth, balance - all the things we, the lucky ones know about.

Also, consider, the instructor I was discussing this issue with, is only half a stone off the weight limit herself. She would agree with James.

[james]

Can I offer lyposuction with my vacuum cleaner to anyone?

[Gemma16]

Thats funny James but doesn't sound to appealling.!

Janette, this is a really stuipd thing to do! How come they couldn't put different weight limits on different horses! Wouldn't this be logical because different horses can carry different amounts of weight.

Also do the insurance companies not get it that all people are equally as likely to hurt themselves when they fall off! Also putting it a bit bluntly wouldn't the larger people of the world have a lil more 'padding' shall we say.

Its so unfair because you could be the mst balanced supple rider but slightly over the limit and do less damage than a skinny unbalanced 'sack of spuds' rider.

Does it prevent the riding school from taking peolpe for lessons on their own horses too if there over weight or just the school horses?

I think we've found another issue to have a rant about here.:D

Speak to you soon Janette

[james]

Looking at it from the riding school's perspective, I suspect that when they set a limit like 12.5 stones, they really mean about 14 stones as they know that people will cheat a bit.

Its the same logic as some manufacturers of women's clothing making their clothes slightly larger so that women who are normally a 14 can fit into a 12 and convince themselves that they have lost weight.

I don't know whether my riding school has a weight limit, but looking at some of the shapes that ride there (jodhpurs made by Cammell Laird shipyards), I suspect not.

[Jay.o]

if shetland can carry 10 stone confortabley then what can a cob/highland/and native carry ? i know most wouldnt want to have a lesson on a shetland but i ride timmy ! :D

weight restrictions could be good but 12.5stone is rediculous.

if the schools cater for more people by getting heavyweight cobs, shire x's then it is going to make more money.
but the insurance companies ? how is a heavier person more likely to have an accidnet ? i think its the wafer thin6 year olds that cpould snap (lol - no offence there).

oh mini rant - in the shetland grand national, they only allow up to 13 yearolds. now i am 15 and really annoyed about that. i am just over 5 foot and very small built. some of these kids that are younger than 13 are the same size if not bigger than me !!!!!!! GRRR.

anyway i know i dont compete timmy but if i could at least i would make an effort !!!

[Peace]

james - GRRR - don't get me started on the makers of women's clothing! My husband saves so much time shopping, as he can look at the waist and inseam measurement and know if the clothes will fit without trying them on. Me, I have everything from an 8 to a 12 in my closet - and they're all *the same size*. Very aggravating.:mad:

Speaking of gender discrimination, I would think that 12.5 stone limit would exclude the great majority of men. Almost all the men I know would exceed it, even the very fit ones. Very unfair!

[james]

I never have understood why women's clothing is not sized in inches or cm/mm rather than these arbitrary sizes.

We used to joke that a "generously built" male friend of our's could only ride at weekends as the local brewery needed the horses during the week to pull the beer kegs around.

Having visited the american mid-west on several occasions, I would expect a 12.5 stone limit to hit many junior riders there as well as adults! I am not saying that some people there are large, but watching one walk backwards in a mall, I expected an automated voice to say "BEEP BEEP - warning vehicle reversing".

[Peace]

LOL, james, they do grow 'em big out there!:) I remember years ago a friend from Belfast came over to spend the summer hitch-hiking across the U.S. (back when one could do this without ending up as fodder for crazed serial-killers:eek: ). On his return, he told me he'd come up with an idea for a U.S. business that would make him a millionaire: an "expandable knicker company." :o :D

[james]

Whenever I am there (visiting Indiana soon), my mind starts off on threads like "I wonder if they are massive enough to distort gravity in their vicinity", or "if a crazed gunman opened fire, I will hide behind them", or "if I accidentally drove my car into them, and the police asked me why I didn't drive around them, could I claim that I had insufficient fuel in the tank?".

I probably just have an evil, warped mind.

[Peace]

My friends in Michigan tell me they gain the weight on purpose, to get through those godawful winters of theirs.:) Might be true - the one winter I was foolish enough to spend there nearly did me in, so I suppose they have to be made of sterner stuff.:)

[james]

Well I suppose that is better than the "its glandular" excuse. having seen a tall and well built man arriving at work at 830 (where I was working) carrying a fast food bag and 1.5 L bottle of soft drink, its not really surprising.

It does seem to be extremes though. They are either stick insects of beach balls and nothing in between. Strange.

[Laetitia]

Makes me appreciate how lucky I am to be able to have my own carthorse! with no weight restrictions other than common sense.
I reckon that the insurance company is being discriminatory, and need to prove the rationale behind the injunction.
Send them a pair of expanding knickers. L

[Wally]

Most insurance companies manage to wriggle out of paying claims one way or another unless you plunge and bound at them.

Riding school insurance does not cover the clients for accidents it only covers the proprietors for neglegence resulting in a claim. If you fall off because a horse shies unless you have your own private accident insurance forget claiming off the riding school's insurance unless you can porve neglegence. Once you have decided to get on a horse you have undertaken by doing so, to accept all the risks involved too.

I'm not anything like 12.5 stone more like 13 and a bit, I may not bounce as well as I did, but an ordinary ma of 14 stone is not overweight in the main. See what 20 stone rugby players do to them selves and they only get cauliflower ears!

[james]

An insurance company's favourite ploy is to try to show "contributory negligence". They have been doing this for some years with with cyclists involved in accidents with cars. If a cyclist was not wearing a helmet (not legally required remember), they will use this as an excuse to reduce the payout, whether or not wearing the helmet would have made a jot of difference to the probability or severity of the accident.

[Wally]

I'm not a cyclist but a motor cyclist, I spent 7 years trying to get an insurance company to cough up for my injuries when thier insured was driving with cataracts.She never saw the red lights or me.

I was deemed neglegent for...wait for it...."riding a motorcycle on the public highway" plus several other laughable points.

So if the girth breaks with a 13 stone rider on, is the insurance company going to claim that it would not have broken with a 12.5 stone rider on the horse thus avoiding an accident and subsequent claim for negligence?

I fail to see what weight has to do with riding school insurance, personal accident insurance maybe.

[FRED]

:) Just a thought, do you think new weight restrictions are also to do with vet/health insurance for horse?

I ride a good many horse, section D cobs and some very big cobs, there fine with me. Im no lightweight, but for my height/build Im no heavy weight either.Some folk and their ideas are a puzzle!
When ive looked around for western ridding school, there weight limits were 12stone!? and for advanced school horse weight limits were 12.5 stone, ive no chance without being seriously ill of getting near that weight.

Anyway, I wish Tom was in our rugby team many years ago, we would never have lost in a scrum and boy can he canter!

[LouiseS]

eml - I am fascinated to know when you become too old to ride in insurance companies view - I hve never heard that before. Many years ago when I used to work at a riding school we used to have a very old man come every week and go out for a hack - he was about 80 by the time he finished (he died) and very heavy (16 stone plus I should think)- but he used to take a very chunky large cob out for an hour and a half gentle hack. He was always perfectly turned out in long boots, breeches, hacking jacket and bowler. This was the seventies - I guess he would have been totally out of order in today's risk adverse, insurance mad society.

Louise S

[sallym]

Interesting point Louise! We have an 84 year old who hacks out from our yard on a school horse.

[eml]

Yes Louise it seems totally random.

Last year I taught a man of 70 who was fitter than most teenagers but according to my insurance policy I can't now teach him at 71!! Mad!

I dont mind the lower limit of 4 as I have never believed in toddler lessons but it does seem ludicrous that at 3 a child can compete in a national show on lead rein but is deemed unsafe for a school to teach!

Regarding James point we do have a 12 stone weight limit which I interpret flexibly. Not that all of us over-that-weight people (me too) are too heavy for our cobs but some people combine overweight with a total lack of balance and fitness and I think that makes an unfair load for my animals. I do however make it clear to people that this is soley at my school as I can't justify the extra cost of keeping weight carriers as most of my riders are kids .

[Mehitabel]

glad you said that eml - i was just composing a post in defence of schools with weight limits!
as you say, a good rider who is heavier is a very different proposition from an unbalanced beginner; and you can't turn away people arbitrarily because the weight carrier horse has already done a lesson that day - so it's hard to limit the work for the horses who are big enough to take them.
a couple of heavier riders would be fine, but as most yards in the area have weight limits, we'd be inundated and carring heavy beginners all day every day is too much.

[ilovecobs]

at the riding school i go to many of the clients i've seen are at least 15stone +. they have 5 hw cobs around 15hh and a big clydesdale x at 16.2 they use for them.
many have to mount from chairs as they cannot reach the stirrups but once they are up they are encouraged to use a light seat and all can post to the trot. one in particular is an "advanced" rider and does everything i do except mount up from the ground and i myself am no stick. @ 5ft and 10st.

they are only turned away if they can't take their weight in the stirrups and just sit heavily on the horse.

[Janette]

oohhhhh - this is a can of worms isn't it? I think that I fit into the advanced category descibed by ilovecobs. (modest aren't I) And at my daughter's riding school (can't say 'ours' anymore), nobody is allowed to mount from the ground. Everybody has to use a mounting block to protect the horses backs, and the saddles - very sensible. The most infuriating thing is, that the previous week, they wer teaching me how to jump a short course of low jumps!!!!!
I amquite willing to take out my own insurance, and sign something to say that I won't claim on theirs. I have been going to this school for seven years, so its not as if I'm a stranger.
And another thing!!!! There are several people whoalready ride there who are just as well padded as me, but are considerably shorter. I'm 5' 9". therfore, they come in under the weight limit, simple because they are shorter than me.


Hope this works, but I've put in a pic to show the true picture.http://groups.msn.com/NRphotos/starandhoney.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=1765 - might turn out to be a link though.

[Laetitia]

Fred, off that nag, far too small for you with all that height of yours!!!
These insurance companies,Where do they get their information from that leads to these unrealistic rules?
I wonder if they have height-weight restrictions for hot air ballooning. L

[Janette]

Actually, I think they do, and for helicopter rides as well. Mark got me a ride in a helicopter (swooping around York Minster on a rainy day I was), for my Xmas pressie, and had to ask the embarrasing question. But again, I am honest about it (mug that I am)- what about the people who lie about their weight.
If they WERE to have an accident and they had lied - would they be covered on the insurance? And how would the insurance people know that they had lied, because Idon't think they would insist on weighing the victim - or would they?

[james]

A light aircraft or helicopter pilot needs to know your weight to do his fuel calculations. Fibbing about your weight could be "embarassing" if it causes the plane to run out of fuel!

[Janette]

Well I got my helicopter ride, an it was fab, and it didn't fall out of the sky either. Does anybbody think the altenrative insurqnce policy would work? I do intend to ask them this saturday.

[FRED]

:D I would avoid 'aceme airways' at all cost and so no weight/fuel calculation problems...fingers crossed.

L,Toms a star and a good deal bigger than me too, he's one very proud horse.

Anyway, its odd that your ridding centre hasn't sought insurance quotes from another company, its hard to believe in this day of well educated brokers { } that there is no solution.
You would think that the ridding school owners would look at all options, rather than lose a good customer/rider.
All business owners have suffered massive rise in insurance, averaging 100% rise in last 12 months.I know of one family of builders who have packed up because their insurance has gone from £12,000 up to £21.000 in 12 months. I guess it opens the door for a healthy 'black market' or should I say opens floodgates.

Well, fingers crossed there is an option to cover heavier rider by small increase in cost of ridding lesson.

:)
Just another thought...maybe if we all turn up for lesson dressed as school girl{yikes shudder the thought} but it might work...:D

[Laetitia]

Bags the gymslip. L

[FRED]

:o fingers crossed my 5 sister's didn't read that too:o

[james]

Is this thread filed in the "riding clothing fetishists" section, "St Trinian's" subsection? I have not checked.

[eml]

Just a quick (boring) note for Fred.
Unfortunately there is only one broker left in the UK who will even quote for liablity cover, and yes even with a claim free 15 years with one company we too have suffered a 100% increase this year.

[LouiseS]

eml - when you ask them why it has gone up so much do they say there has been an increase in claims?

I would be interested to know if anyone on this board has ever claimed against or even thought about claiming against a riding school, trekkin centre etc.

[james]

I am glad that I have learnt to ride now as I think we can expect to see the cost of lessons rising steeply in the next few years because of the insurance premiums.

Insurance actuaries will not just consider what claims have been against schools, but will look at the potential size of a single claim (could be several £M easily) and the probability of such claims arising (from publicly available statistics on accidents).

The cover is 3rd party liability, so would also include damage to other people and their property.

[eml]

Hi Louise

The reason premiums have gone up so much this year is a judges decision that a couple who's horses escaped from a well fenced field were liable for the damage they caused. So we are now liable even if the horses are acting quite naturally and we have taken every precaution to keep them safe.

The other things that have had impact is a case in Merseyside a few years ago where the judge awarded £4m damages to a brain injured child and the new ability to claim damages without cost by the solicitor taking a share of the 'profits'. This means that people are more likely to try to sue even if they have not got a winnable case.

It peeves me that our record of no claims, no accidents and minimal incidents are not reflected in my premiums as these are set as an industry standard.

[Mazpup]

Thats harsh! Muscle weighs more than fat anyway, so a lighter 'fattier' rider would be more cumbersome and be not as able as a heavier 'muscular' rider of the same standard. And having 12 stone as a weight limit? Most healthy tall men would weigh more than that!

[eml]

Yes I know Mazpup but as I said I don't try to cater for everyone as my speciality is children and teenagers and i only take a few adults, mainly mums of young riders

[FRED]

eml, I think thats wicked and restrictive practise that there is only one broker for liability cover.While its very true the UK has gone 'claim mad', its a great shame good establishments like yours don't get any no claim bonus.
In our trade people will and can go to the end of the world to save a few £ buying parts or machine, don't matter how good there local Dealer is, if people had no choice it is deemed restrictive practise and doe's result in massive fines.Look whats happened to JCB.
Insurance costs certainly are a worry for all business, sometimes I get tired of seeing/hearing of machinery being tipped over on farms,99% of the time its through poor driving.
Ive noticed there are a good many folk about who think horse ridding is all about going flat out no matter what the terain or rider ability,ive no time for these folk.
:)

[Laetitia]

Fred can't you borrow one of your sister's outfits, I'm sure Tom would love all the publicity.
What irritates me is the way an exclusion is slapped on once one's made a claim. Seriously considering cancelling 'vets fees', as the limit is quite low, and the vets , bless 'em, hoick up the treatment, fees,etc. You covered? right we'll do this, that, t'other! Have the T shirt for this one, after numerous visits with little result, have now reached insurance ceiling, and there is now an operation to fund.
Tell me, anybody who is cleverer at maths than me ( that's not difficult) is it cost effective to pay vets insurance fees? L

[FRED]

:p :o :p , OK nothing to do about insurance...but tonight TOM didn't bat an eye lid at my bright red waterproof outfit:o
We only had a shower too:) sort of..

[Janette]

Suppose that my riding days are over then for a while.:mad:

[LouiseS]

Hi eml

Yes - I know the case about the horses escaping. I think it is bad law - I used to practice and once had some clients who had a bad car accident when they were galloped into by a herd of bullocks who had broken out of their field during a thunderstorm. After much discussion and evidence this was accepted as an 'act of god' because they were adequatly fenced for all normal situations and it would be virtually physically impossible to contain a large panicing animal with out a 6' brick wall or something and this would be unreasonable to expect the owners to provide this. Hence they had to claim on their own insurance. The main thing about the horse one is that until another similar case happens and someone is not found liable (if they have fenced appropriately) is that insurance companies will continue to load the premiums on this basis - and to be honest I don't think they balance likelhood of the event against this - they just up the premiums.

For vets fees I don't know for horses but with my last dog he wasn't insured and lived for 9 years and cost less in vets fees than the would insurance cost. Current dog is insured - because he is a Flatcoated Retriever and there are incidences of cancer in the breed and I want be sure I can afford any treatent that is neccessary - but I think that there is a serious balancing act to be done for all insurance nowadays!

Louise

[Mehitabel]

our school ponies aren't insured for vet bills - with 20 odd and many of them late teens or 20s the cost would be prohibitive. much cheaper to deal with the odd bad injury, and since we're such a big yard and give the vets so much business they are OK with paying in instalments for big bills for the school ponies.
we often do in-house shows, jumping days or clear round days to raise money for vet bills - good fun for everyone and a great way of raising money.

[eml]

Yes Es like you we coud not contemplate the premiums for vets bills for 32. Fortunately all the natives are hardy and I am quite experienced in minor ailments so we seldom need the vet except for exteme emergencies eg colic ot major wounds which are (fingers crossed) rare.

[Laetitia]

Fred,was that a bathing costume or what? bright red, tut, far too adventurous. must have made dear ol' Tom's eyes spin a bit!
Think in future will cancell nag's vet cover. Hasn't really helped. L

[Summers Dream]

I may have got the wrong impression here about this thread but i am a size 18 and no way light, the stables where i work take adults up to 18 stone, surly does it not depend on the type of horse ? There are alot of cob type horses there and i have many to choose from although i do ahve an incentive to get my weight doen cause there is a mare there that won't respect me no matter what and i am losing weight to ride that mare so she will respect me lol

anyway backl to subject if you are a good enough rider and ride well you can be so light, where as you could get a stick insect that rides badly and weighs a ton, hope this makes sense.

I would find a stable that can accomodate you no mater what size you are !!!

Size does not matter, i work harder than the wee thin ones at yard infact i am 32 and i can muck out quicker and better than the young so called fit ones lol.

So i would tell your yard to kiss your beautiful big butt and go find another one where you can ride, don't you dare give up !!!!

[Janette]

Thankyou Summers Dream. I have been quite depressed and upset about ithe whole issue, particularly, as they had just given me a set of jumping lessons, and now - nothing. I was talking to a friend of mine who is an instructor, and she said exactly the same as you. I am going to begin making the phone calls today.