Grrrrrrr

[NZhorserider]

I know this is a thread for those who generally like and practice Natural Horsemanship, but I have a few problems with it.

We have a 15hh chestnut arabian mare at Kishon who we brought from another stud. We were told that she's done natural horsemanship. At first, it didn't really raise any immediate issues wit me. I'd heard of how people love natural horsemaship, so I thought it must be alright.

Now I know there are different types and levels of natural horsemanship that can be applied. Please note that I'm not trying to offend any people who do use this:)

Now, this horse, Crystal, has major issues with natural horsemanship.

She has been taught to move away from pressure. I think this is the 'porcupine' game, where there are different levels of pressure applied to get the horse to move away.

We only have to lightly touch her, and she shoots off in the opposite direction to get away from the pressure! Can you imagine how hard it is to saddle her up!!!!!

Then, we had the horse dentist out. Being educated to natural horsemanship, she thinks that if she on a leadrope, that she should move to the end of it. She made it so difficult for the dentist, who is against natural horsemanship, to do her teeth when she was bolting backwards the whole time.

How can we punish a horse who thinks this is the thing she is being asked to do? I personally think that it would confuse the hell out of her.

I spent ages this morning trying to brush her, saddle her and mount her. I can't mount her by myself because the slightest pressure felt and she moves away.

I myself can't make any sense of natural horsemanship! If a horse is trained to move away from pressure, how are you meant to do any ground work with them? How are you meant to lead them if they think that they should be moving away from a leadrope?

I heard that many of the natural horsemanship people don't actually ride......... no wonder!!

I'm very sorry if I've offended anyone, this is just my very confused view. All I know is that we have a ruined horse who we struggle to do easy tasks with.

I would appreciate other peoples' views on this.

GRACE

[Kylie Chamberlain]

Yeah i see your point there. I know very little about natural horsemanship, but it really sounds a bit pointess if it teaches horses habits like it has your mare
I also don't want to offend anyone here.
Good luck with your training of this horse

[NZhorserider]

Thanks Kylie - by the way we just beat you at rugby:D

We're doing our best with her, but it's stuck in her mind and I don't think it is possible to reverse it. Maybe I should take her to an animal psychiatrist!! Maybe she needs to talk about her feelings!!

[Secret Trick]

So we did win - great! (Oh, and don't forget the netball!)

What to do about your mare .... well I have no idea on that one, but I just wanted to add in that your situation brings up a point that I had never thought of before - about teaching horses to move from you etc and the effect this can have. Would be interesting to hear others experiences with this!

[Peace]

I'm no expert on any of this, but I'm pretty sure the reaction you're getting isn't what the NH trainers are striving for.:)

Sounds like she was trained by someone who was too forceful or didn't have his timing down right. As I understand it, with the porcupine game you use the lightest pressure possible and instantly remove it when you get a reaction (at first, a reaction might be just a tiny shift of the horse's weight). That way, the horse knows it controls how much pressure is applied. I think the example they use is "dependable as a fencepost" - when the horse leans on a post, it knows the post will only push back the same amount it pushes on the post. The post wouldn't, for example, suddenly spring to life and chase the horse away. ;)

Maybe someone with more NH experience can suggest how you might de-sensitize this poor girl. My best suggestion would be to try not to react to the behavior you don't want, and reward waht you do want. How do you feel about clicker-training?

[helen03]

my horse had a bad experience with 'natural' horsemanship and he's now petrified of whips, sticks and anything that touches his back legs or tummy, like leg straps. he just runs and runs in blind terror because of what the evil so called natural horsemanship man did to him. i've gone on about this before so i'll shut up now!

[Ipsa]

It sounds to me like this horse has been 'overcooked' and had way too much pressure put on it and it now has developed these extreme reactions. I would say that it was probably trained by someone who actually had very little knowledge of NH and now you are left with the result.
I'm sure with gentle handling and training you can fix the problem. She sounds like an incredibly sensitive horse and by doing things like spending a lot of time grooming her I am sure you are on the right path to success. I think if you did decide to punish her it would lead to more problems and as you say how can you punish a horse who thinks she is doing what you want.
This can happen with non natural horsemanship trained horses as well so I think it's a case of a bad trainer and not a true reflection of what can be achieved with NH.
The other point to remember is that we teach horses to move away from pressure in non NH training eg. if my horse is in the yard and I want it to move over I'll put my hand on it and use slight pressure so that it moves away.
Good luck:)

[NZhorserider]

Thanks guys.

She is really a jittery mess at the moment and since, apart from holidays, I only ride in the weekends, I don't have much time to work with her.

She is also head shy which makes me wonder about her former owners. I went to pull her forelock out from under the browband and she went nuts.:(

Grace

[JustStylish]

Are you sure your horse isn't just more nervous, than 'moving away from pressure'? It sounds like you're basically working with a mare full of nerves, which might indicate that the horse's past wasn't exactly the best. She probably didn't want to move away from pressure, natrually, and someone was firm, and strict with her. If this is indeed the problem, then she might be uneasy, maybe she doesn't trust you. Just be patient, and loving + caring towards her, and she should get over some of the things. However, some horses will stay head-shy all their lives, no matter if they had been badly-treated or not.

I think that this is something more for a professional to deal with, than an amateur, if its really as bad as you're making it seem. I know that our dentist, farriers, etc, would just about massacre the owner of any horse that 'ran away' from pressure as you're describing.

but, then again, i may always be wrong >X

[FreedomStar]

It sounds as if she had way too much pressure put on her when she was 'trained' for natural horsemanship. Start out in a roundpen. I'd say a join up type session would help. Try attempting join up. If it works, yay! If it doesn't, no biggie, just try again some other day. After this, step closer to her and press on her. If she bolts away, then make her go far away and don't let her come back to you until YOU are ready to allow her to come and try to trust you again. If she again flinches, then send her out until she asks to be let in. Continue doing this until she accepts light pressure, and stop there for the day. What this establishes is trust. You want the horse to trust you enough, yet, allow the horse to pick the time the trust comes into play. If this doesn't work, don't overwork her just so that you can get this to work. Try a little bit at a time.

[sandra owen]

I practice Natural Horsemanship, and I can assure you that it should not have the reaction your horse is giving you.

Obviously something has gone very wrong. Natural horsemanship is brilliant and I have helped two horses lately who were very scared, right brained, flight aholics, who are now very calm, obedient and trusting. But it's like every other short of horsemanship it's only good if it's done properly. So don't knock it if you haven't tried it!: ::cool:

[Tootsie4U]

I agree, it doesnt sound like your horse has undergone any type of natural horsemanship I've ever heard of. Sounds more like a self proclaimed NH trainer who really has no idea but just likes the ring the title gives him.

[NaTaLiE27]

Alright, sounds like your mare never got taught to come back only to move away...this can happen for a number of reasons mainly because the person who taught her didn't know what he/she was doing. Go back to the begining...stand her somewhere quiet and just rub her body down with your hands don't try any other ground work stuff untill she feels secure with you touching her all over that's called the "friendly game" i believe.

When she stands on the end of the lead run your hands down the lead(towards you) gently pulling keep increasing the pressure til she takes a step forward and then release your pressure keep doing this untill she's come into you than give her a big reward...just keep working on getting her to come to you and then when she does scratch her and praise her.

[calamity jane]

It sounds like whoever"trained" your horse forgot the most important natural horsemanship game, The Friendly Game. The friendly game is when you spend lots of time rubbing the horse with your hand, sticks, plastic bags, saddle cloth etc and helping the horse to feel safe and comfortable with them.
It sounds as though your horse is very sensitive and needs desensitising to some degree by rythmic ruubbing until she relaxes. Give it a try. Dont just expect her to accept your touch, help her to learn to relax, keep rubbing with a gentle but firm rythm until she relaxes.

[Pirat Newsflash]

I really hear what you are saying.

I don't understand anyway why someone calls that a game, if it's obviously not to your horse?

No offense, I'm just being critical.

I would open your horse up to people, in other words, get his attention and the problem will be gone. He's not thinking about it; he's doing what is taught him. Get him to think. Let him bump into things if he likes moving without thinking and looking.

[Silver1]

That doesn't sound like natural horsemanship to me either, I've been training Mear with a little bit of everything. I use horse body language, and I whisper. If the whisper doesn't work, I do a review and see if I personally am at fault or if there is something wrong etc. if not then I whisper again, and if she still doesn't listen, then I talk softly, if the talking doesn't work, I admit that I yell, loudly.

Most of the time if she's just pigging around the yelling works ;)

[calamity jane]

:o HI GUYS, It sounds like a lot of you do not understand what natural horsemanship is all about. So I thought I would like to clarify a few things.
Its to do with horse psychology and treating a horse like a horse - not a human. When you watch a herd of horses they play games with one another all the time. They play the friendly game by scratching one another, swishing flies etc, we might call that grooming. They play driving games by nodding with their heads to the other or wrinkling their noses and putting their ears back which is folllowed through with a bite or a kick if the other horse doesnt take notice of the subtle signs. They play sideways games like if they are at a water trough and want another horse to move over. Then there is the pecking order of who is to be the boss hoss. So when WE enter their yard they are sizing us up to see if we or they will be the boss.
PP has developed a system where we can treat a horse like a horse and understand the language of EQUUS so as to develop a partnership with your horse, which leads to harmony, then finesse.
You have to prove to your horse that you are a good leader by following thru with what you ask and also by putting your heart in your hand , showing he can trust you. By playing the 7 Games with your horse you then develop trust and respect and so become his leader.
Often times a man is too hard and gets respect and not trust, and a woman is too soft and develops trust and not respect. So a man need to become softer and a woman needs to become more assertive to get both trust and respect.
Any ?? just Yell!!

[Happy Appy 16]

I have a suggestion



Maybe you should have someone who knows about natural horsemanship tell you more about it

or you could have your friends help you break the habit,
you can do this by having you friends on the oppisite side of the horse that you are......and when you are saddling or mounting or whatever have them push on the that side and its going to take time but it jst might work


Leah

[Pirat Newsflash]

Originally posted by calamity jane
:o HI GUYS, It sounds like a lot of you do not understand what natural horsemanship is all about. So I thought I would like to clarify a few things.
Its to do with horse psychology and treating a horse like a horse - not a human. When you watch a herd of horses they play games with one another all the time. They play the friendly game by scratching one another, swishing flies etc, we might call that grooming. They play driving games by nodding with their heads to the other or wrinkling their noses and putting their ears back which is folllowed through with a bite or a kick if the other horse doesnt take notice of the subtle signs. They play sideways games like if they are at a water trough and want another horse to move over. Then there is the pecking order of who is to be the boss hoss. So when WE enter their yard they are sizing us up to see if we or they will be the boss.
PP has developed a system where we can treat a horse like a horse and understand the language of EQUUS so as to develop a partnership with your horse, which leads to harmony, then finesse.
You have to prove to your horse that you are a good leader by following thru with what you ask and also by putting your heart in your hand , showing he can trust you. By playing the 7 Games with your horse you then develop trust and respect and so become his leader.
Often times a man is too hard and gets respect and not trust, and a woman is too soft and develops trust and not respect. So a man need to become softer and a woman needs to become more assertive to get both trust and respect.
Any ?? just Yell!!

... but the problem with nh is that i am not a horse. And the next problem is that when a horse thinks a human is a horse.... look at the herd a little bit better... that that is very dangerous; you'd have to fight for a pecking order, etc.

[Pirat Newsflash]

and it doesn't matter how i treat a horse, a horse will always be a horse, so i don't understand what you are saying, no.

[Pirat Newsflash]

Originally posted by calamity jane
...treat a horse like a horse and understand the language of EQUUS so as to develop a partnership with your horse, which leads to harmony, then finesse. ..

Anyone noticing the abstraction of this? It's not to you personal, cj, but it doesn't get through to my brain what is meant by this. I can't fantasize with all my imagination a picture with this.

[chapsi]

There is no abstraction at all in the EQUUS concept. Many scientists and NH people are adopting it these days. EQUUS is a concept that is based upon the assumption that horses communicate with each other and with other animals (including humans too), by using body language, some of it very subtle, as well as certain behaviour patterns.
The idea of developing a sound relationship with your horse goes through us human being able to read their cues and to use them in order to communicate proficiently, building a trustful relationship.
Mounty Roberts and Michael Peace express very well the concept of EQUUS

[Pirat Newsflash]

The same.


Originally posted by chapsi
... Many scientists and NH people are adopting it these days...

That's not how you convince me. What does that explain to me about nh?

Accept that the truth is that trust and harmony and relationship and join up , etc. nh words are all abstract like a gipsy speaking about your future, except that when a horse comes in the ring it is all a different story, like your life will turn out not to be with the 4 husbands and the 5 kids and the cancer you survived.

[Silver1]

Hi Pirat, it may sound kind of funny, but I'll try to explain a little. I'd first like to state that I am not trying to convince you, I don't really care what you do (as long as you don't hurt your horse) to get him to do what you want. We’re all horse people here and we all do our thing differently, with hopefully the same result, an obedient horse! :)

Sometimes telling the horse something in a language it understands can make what you want more clear. You are very right in the problem with the pecking order, horses have something called linear dominance, which means there isn't just one leader and everyone obeys him. They each have a direct line from the leader to the second in command all the way down to the last horse. Having to argue and establish that isn't easy, nor is it something you can win because the horse outweighs you by quite a lot.

Fortunately for us humans, we are smarter then horses, and so if we choose we can speak their language, and if we don't choose they'll have to learn ours.

Most horses (yours could be different, I don’t know) don’t like to fight. They don’t like to hurt each other, because that will mean that they’d probably get hurt too. In the wild, an injury isn’t just something painful that you’ll have to put up for a couple of days, it’s a death penalty.

Instead they settle arguments by displays, pinning ears, squealing, pawing the ground, phantom kicks etc. only about 10% (or less, its in my equine science course somewhere but I don't feel like digging it up) actually become real fights. Since I've seen some of those "real" fights, I completely understand your unwillingness to start one :D I wouldn't either!!!

In join up, the theory is if the foal gets too full of himself, sometimes one of the leaders will teach them a lesson. They will say “I don’t think you are really a horse. If you were a horse you wouldn’t act like this. You’d be good and quit challenging people for their well established roles. If you don’t think I’m the leader, then we’ll see what the wolves think about that.”

Then he or she will face that horse, pin its ears and drive him out of the herd. S/he will keep him out of the herd and won’t let him back. That is a serious threat, with out a herd a horse is finished. Eventually he’ll start giving signs that he doesn’t want to be bad anymore. He’ll lower his head and start making chewing motions, or lick his lips. This is trying to say “Hey, I eat grass just like the rest of you people!” He’s apologizing for his wrong doings, and if his ear is locked on you, he’s telling you that he respects you.

Since you are a horseman, I’m sure you know the values of respect. This is just an option on how to go about it. Its not magical or gypsy talk, its just taking advantage of something a horse recognizes and using it.

When your horse is willing to work for you, its just plain easier. He learns quicker, you don’t have as many fights, etc.

I personally don’t use the round pen for anything more then a class room. I already have Mears respect so I don’t do join up for her. Running in endless circles is not going to help her learn now that she’s past it. A lot of people I’ve noticed seem to feel that running a horse in a round pen is the answer to ALL problems. I’ve seen people rip their horses away from a farrier when the horse is misbehaving to take it directly into the round pen and run it for misbehaving, as if its going to understand and connect the two. Horses don’t work that way, and you know that as well as I do. I think that might be one of your sources of frustration.

An example not involving a round pen is this: Suppose that your horse decides to cross the line and do something he wouldn’t normally do, like give you a nip or step away from you. If you wait five minutes and then go “Bad girl for moving away five minutes ago!” The horse has no clue. If you correct immediately by a sharp reprimand etc. then you’ve done something the horse understands.

A horse in the wild would never even consider waiting to kick a horse that bit him 5 minutes ago. He would react immediately. This is horse language in a minor sense.

I hope that helped and I was a little more clear about what we mean. I know it all sounds like fancy talk, but as far as me and my horse, its worked so far. At least the bits we follow. I haven't done any of the Parelli stuff. Too complicated! ;)

[NZhorserider]

Hey Guys,

Kinda funny that I started the thread and haven't posted on it for ages :p

It's hard, because everyone has different perceptions of NH, so please don't start a fight.

Our horse dentist did raise a valid point though, what use is it for a horse to move away from you on the ground? Then what happens when you want to work in close? Like the farrier, dentist or vet. Or leading your horse in an inhand show.

Grace:)

[Pirat Newsflash]

Yeah, I hear. If you ever get into trouble this is my number: 06-52157313 --->NL's.

[NZhorserider]

ok....

[calamity jane]

Howdy! Hell bells! Why are some people so complicated and make a big deal of small things!!?? Pirat, Im an Aussie mate and call a 'spade a spade'. What nationality are you?
Why you cant understand some things is maybe the language or country barrier!! So maybe check out the normal people site.
Boy will I be glad when normal is natural. :)

[chapsi]

Our horse dentist did raise a valid point though, what use is it for a horse to move away from you on the ground? Then what happens when you want to work in close? Like the farrier, dentist or vet. Or leading your horse in an inhand show.

One of the points on working with your horse and to teach him ground manners is actually to yield from pressure when REQUESTED to do so. There are times when horses have to move away from us on request, times when they might get pushy or invade your space.
You see, your mare's behaviour is not normal for a horse that went through a correct NH training. NH is about communicating efficiently in the horse's own language, getting the right response at the right time.
I have a horse who has been difficult at times, in particular when insisting on him to move away from my space, let alone invade it. In fact, yelding from pressure at my request has been one of the hardest things for my dominiring horse to grasp.
Your mare's behaviour is not due to NR, but perhaps a combination of unproper training with a nervous/insecure temperament.

Calamity Jane, you made a very valid point!

[Kelly_Milton]

Wow what a problem.

Someone did suggest Join Up. This is a great way forward this is getting your horses trust. So instead wanting to run away she will come to you. It sounds like you've lost hope with NH but it really sounds like the horse hasn't been trained well.

Do you stable your horse? If so try this, they are very curious animals, try taking a book into the stable say hello but dont try to touch her. Just read your book eventually she will come to you as he won't understand what your doing sitting in her stable not paying any attention to her. (only do this if you feel safe with her, I also did it in the field but then I had quite a few horses being curious)

It's amazing! I had a little man that just didn't like people at all, now he just follows me round everywhere. Once you have her trust start at her head and just spend loads of time grooming her.

I hope this helps its really hard trying to explain. But have a look on Monty Roberts Web page they might even have someone out your way. I think there are good and bad bits in all NH it's just trying to find the best parts for your horse.

Good Luck and let us know how you get on, and don't get down hearted.

[MissyDC]

I had a good experience with the Parelli rope halter and yacht braid lead rope. I had a head shy abused 13 yr. old thoroughbred mare that was off the track. She wouldn't let anyone touch her head and hated to be cross tied and lead by a halter and lead. I lead her around with the rope halter and yacht braid rope and after using it for some time, I believe that it felt less constricting to her than a leather halter. We are very gentle with her, and she has since gotten over her head shyness and is now wearing a regular halter and she cross ties and leads well. I have not used the other Parelli equipment or practiced the "games" . I know everyone looked at me and my horse funny while she was wearing the rope halter - they couldn't understand it, but whatever works. Just had to share that with you!:)

Missy

[cvb]

a lot of people seem to get the idea that anyone who swings rope is practising natural horsemanship.

Its not the same thing.

Swinging a rope is... well... swinging a rope. Pure and simple. And it can be done very well, or incredibly and horribly badly.

The fact you have used a halter and rope as an aggressive tool to control a horse does not make it any more "natural".

If I go somewhere where the people do not speak the same language as me - I make an effort to try and communicate. Normally through a mix of my language, their language, and an awful lot of body language and hand signals !

One thing that rarely works is just saying things in my language only S L O W E R and LOUDER. Or hitting someone until they understand me !

Simplistically speaking, my view of nh is not that it is about me being seen as a horse, it is about the horse and myself communicating better. Which means instead of using my language all the time, I use a mix of mine and theirs.

An awful lot of nh is not about training the horse, it is about training the human to communicate better.

In your original example, the communication has clearly broken down (before you got involved). So I would say they were just swinging ropes, rather than training nh.

(by the way, I had a similar but less extreme experience with my mare. When we went to pick her up, they took over 20 mins to load with lots of rope swinging and backing up etc. When I went to load her next time, 5 mins max with no rope swinging. I know which I consider more natural ! She's now not half so worried about ropes, and actually does do some 'real' natural horsemanship - I'm sure she'd tell you my training was coming along nicely ;) )