Do you outrank your horse?

[OlavS]

Hi,

I have been riding for about 6 months now. I don't have my own horse, or even a regular one at the riding school.
It seems every time I go into a box to groom and saddle up an unfamiliar horse I'd better be (or act) confident or he'll decide what we'll be doing during the lesson.

Most riders have been there. Standing in the middle, kicking, getting shouted at for not whipping harder, getting the instructor to whip, smack cluck and yell in order to get you moving etc.
No offence, but this is especially true for young girls it seems. The pony will not move no matter what, and is deemed lazy (but perhaps thereby safe for novice riders?)

But that makes me wonder... Surely if the horse/rider companionship is to work so that the rider provides the brains (descisions, comfort and support), and the horse provides the body, he must trust AND obey his rider?

If so, how many riders out there are actually taught the importance of outranking their horse in order to be in control? Or rather, how many riders gets pushed about on the ground, and used as a scratching post, then wonder why the horse won't obey during the lesson?

We all know that if we're given a crop/whip then our rank rises a few steps immediately. We don't even have to use it, just let the horse know we've got it.

I know some people will kick or bite their horse if the horse did it to them first. A farrier may hit a horses if the horse plays up. Which is fine I guess, if the horse was just being mischievous or moody, and caused a dangerous situation. (After all, they don't realise how fragile we are.)

What do you do to to let him know that you're in charge?
Where do you draw the line?
For those who ride mares, will you let her off more easily when in heat, or no difference?

Ok, let the flaming begin :p

Olav

[chapsi]

Olav, such a delicate question at this time of the night (it's midnight here).
Well, I don't quite agree with this outranking issue.
I have a stroppy difficult horse, but I acccept that he has a right to express his mind (as long as he doesn't hurt me), to say no.
Let's put it this way; he doesn't dare to batter an eyelid at my instructor, but plainly he is terrified of him. As with me, he might play up, but we both know where we stand.
I don't want respect in exchange for fear. I want a partnership.
I see a partnership as a 1/1 thing, not a domination-submission ground!

[KarinUS]

I think my horse looks at me as the leader but not in a domineering kind of way but rather a comfort leadership. If decisions must be made, yes it is I who will decide what is going to happen.
I do however listen for his input and if appropriate we will accommodate him. He actually has some very good ideas and pretty good reasons. My relationship with him goes way beyond of what I ever experienced with a horse. I trust him and in the time I have owned him I have made sure that his trust in me is justified as well. I believe he trusts me.

Frankly I think he is quite happy to be allowed to have his own mind but keep me in charge as it reliefs him of the stress of being the leader. He can feel more secure with our hierarchy structure.
If I let him roam in the paddock while I do chores his initial reaction if something spooks him, is to run to join me.

I also think that an intelligent horse can distinguish much more than we give them credit for. For once I think I can let him get away with some things and still not completely lose his respect.

Just the fact that he will get very calm and gentle when I snuggle with him cheek to cheek makes me think he must think he must realize we are fragile. One flip of his head could easily knock my teeth out.

[ponytude]

I kinda agree with the young female rider thing. I have seen one girl go up to a horse that was in her stall and stick her hand in. She then shouts the horses name and snaps her fingers loudly upsetting the horse(THIS WAS NOT AT MY RIDING STABLE, it was a trail ride at another ranch). I walked by as soon as she left and the horse sticks his head out the door and noses me for treats! Really! Upsetting a horse when the person had know intentions of petting her is pointless. Thgis is totally pointless to do and write about:D! Sorry I am saying this but when you sarted you just cant stop. the horse was really young and green and alittle headshy! Just strarting training. Poor little mare. She was really pretty though. Sorry I am kinda off topic......:D:D


ok getting the horses attention? WHat kinda riding?(i know stupid question but its in a mag that says how to for some show.)

S:DRRY!!!,
PONYTUDE

[Shiny McShine]

I like to think that when I am working with a horse that we can have a kind of acceptance. I feel that ideally we should be working on an equal footing, and I think this is something that can be experienced between a really good horseman and a really top horse. To get to this stage however, I do believe that there has to be a line that is drawn. What I believe that line is, is an understanding between horse and rider, because I think understanding is the way to acceptance and being able to work together.

The understanding is that if the horse is not to cross the line and threaten you... or you will not be happy, and that you are not to cross the line and threaten the horse... or he will not be happy.
It's a subtle balance that requires much skill from the horseman. It is hard to stand up and challange a large animal and convince him that he should not pick on you... just as it is hard to know when to stop and stand back and allow him space. They are both just as important....

Now I am really afraid that if I continue on I will just be rambling like a madwoman, so I will stop there... but I hope you get my idea. This thread has really got my mind spinning, which is great... thanks!! :D.

[OlavS]

Hi, thanks for your thoughts so far!

I spent hours trying to write that post in short-ish way yesterday, and I think I cut it a bit too short.

I'll giv you some examples to indicate that I don't mean obedience through fear or something. Here goes:

If I groom or tack up a horse and he tries to push me, fidget about or scratch against me I will tell him off and straighten his head (as in pushing him away and trying again).

When I lead him up to the riding arena he is sometimes (oops! mixed signals) allowed to eat some grass on the way. Never when I'm in the saddle, though.

If he tries to walk off when I get ready to mount I lead him around in a circle and try again. He'll find it boring in the end and let me mount.

When he does stand still for tacking up, mounting etc I give him a good scratch as a treat for good behaviour.

I started thinking about this because I've read that if you let a horse use you to scratch against it's a clear sign of disrespect. But if you invite him first, then it's ok.
Apparently, in the heard, a dominant (i.e. higher ranking) horse can go over to a lower ranking horse for a good scratch, but the lower ranking must be seek permission before scratching against a higher ranking horse, or suffer the concequences.
And the highest ranking horse decides where the heard goes with pointing the ears and probably lots more. When riding WE want to decide where to go, what gait etc. Which is why I thought we should seek to outrank our horse.

Here's an example familiar to us all:
Say an inexperienced female (no offence) rider gets pushed about when trying to groom and tack up. And needs help getting the bit in his mouth (I often do :o ). Then needs someone to hold the horse in order to mount. What will make that horse walk when she gives signals to walk, trot when she wants to trot, rather than just stand there until the lesson is over? He'll get his feed anyway...? Give her a crop and you might get another 5 minutes of riding. Give the instructor a whip and the power shifts, but then the horse obeys the instructor, not the rider....

Apparently the horse, although their brain is small remembers very well. So, say you let him eat while you are riding. Now if you one day fall off when he stopped for a quick snack you might regret it. How long will it take you to teach him that you've changed your mind, or that eating when standing still is ok but don't stop to eat, I don't want that? Wouldn't it be less confusing if he was NEVER allowed to eat when mounted in the first place?

So you draw a line. No, he can't push you into the wall. And yes, he has to stand still when picking his hooves. If he puts the foot back down before you are done, how do you respond? Do you think, ah, it's pretty clean anyway now, do you pick it back up and keep it there for two minutes until YOU are ready to give it back, or something else?

All horses are different. But I also think some deliberately test any new rider to see what they can get away with. Which is why it's important to draw the lines right away, especially given their good memory. Where do you draw yours?

I'm sorry this post got sooo long, but I think it's easier to explain this way.

Please keep your thoughts coming!

Olav

[anuvb]

I think I probably "think" along the same lines as you. For me a horse HAS to obey my rules. There is no middle ground. Now that might seem a little harsh, but let me explain myself.....

Horses, are huge, we are not (even a little pony can be huge if it is rearing, and a shetland can do almost as much damage to a person handling it as a 17hH can from the ground). They are strong we are not. These very facts immediately mean that we have to (a) respect them, but (b) make damn sure that they respect us. Because horses operate on a herd basis, they have clearly defined behaviours within a group about what is acceptable and unacceptable in order to make that group of horses operate like a herd. Therefore, I think like children, horses need a set of guidelines, with which to work in. Take away those guidelines and they become unruly, unsure of themselves and how they should behave.

Now, this doesn't mean we can't listen to them. Just because I want a horse to behave how I want it to behave, doesn't mean to say that I am inflexible in my approach to working with a horse. In fact, because the signals humans can give to a horse can be very confusing, working with a horse means constantly reassessing your actions in order to find the best "language" possible for communication to take place. However, like children, it's no good giving into them one day and then expecting them to know exactly how you want them to behave the next day. If you want to teach a desired behaviour, then do it a step at a time, as long as it remains consistent. In fact, like children, or adults, you can't expect them to do a certain "job" or behave a certain way if you don't give them the skills and instructions to do so. To do so would not only be unreasonable, but would be like expecting a hairdresser to perform open heart surgery.

I've worked with a number of horses (including some pretty difficult ones) and on a number of yards in the past 6 or seven years, and I would say that when you work with a large number of horses, there is no way that you can spend hours dealing with every little nuance a horse has to offer. Therefore it is even more imperative that each horse knows it's boundaries and how it is supposed to behave otherwise you or your clients would be forever injured. Interestingly, in my experience the more difficult a horse, quite often the more it doesn't have a clear understanding of it's boundaries, and the more you have to reinforce and teach them and assert your "leadership".

As for the ground vs riding thing. I'm not sure that applies to most horses. Most horses grow up in livery ryards and are used to delaign with lots of different people responsible for mucking out/grooming and so on. Therefore they get used to separating out the riding instructions to the ground instructions. So a very comptent rider can get on a very unruly horse, having never tacked it up etc and ride it very well. But again, a good rider will make sure that their signals are clear and giving the horse everything it needs to work correctly within the boundaries the rider sets. Horses don't have the ability to reason, but they do have the ability to follow commands if taught correctly. With a new rider, I think they just try and find out what that person's boundaries are.

[Esther.D]

Mine know that they have to behave around me and I won't tolerate messing if I don't invite it. Mine will play with me if invited but they know the difference between work and play and if I say that enough is enough then I mean it. We have the opposite situation than the suggested male/female thing. I walk in and they behave...Stephen walks in and they torment him no end..they pick his pockets and push him about and refuse to behave. It ends up with me having to get eye contact with them and put on the 'teacher voice' (I'm not a teacher by the way but I have worked with kids) and 'MIND...I'm watching you!!' and they will behave straight away and slope off looking sheepish. Maybe I'm just a scarey woman ;) :D ..... actually I think it is because I was brought up with horses (Stephen has ridden for years but Pablo is his first horse) and have worked with shetlands since I was about 12 and shetlands really do need discipline! They need plenty of fun and plenty of discipline - just like kids really:D The one difference I have found between shetlands (and probably other small natives too) and horses is that they have a developed sense of 'fair play' and will not co-operate if they think you are not being 'fair' so you do need to be consistent but cut some slack at times and let them have a bit of an input in the decision making.

[OlavS]

Thanks for sharing, guys,

I was going to write another looong reply, but I keep confusing the real issue that must be answered first.

In general, I think it's the rider/handlers level of natural authority that decides the amount of mucking around. (Esther's horses aside :p ). Or call it posture, attitude etc. Some can be faked by controlled breathing, posture and such, some obviously takes time to develop.

The girl on the horse that won't shift (see earlier post), would she not have had a better chance of being in control (i.e. getting him to walk) if she acted with more assertiveness both on the ground and in the saddle?

Or is good behaviour and obedience not related to authority? Does it only come with a long term and well founded relationship? (Something those of us who ride lots of different horses in our riding school are unlikely to achieve)

Or to nail the most fundamental question: What can I do in order to best form a good, 1 1/2 hour relationship with a new horse that both will enjoy? I'll groom him, tack up, lead him up the the arena, ride him, lead him back, groom and give him his carrot. And maybe not ride that particular horse again for a couple of months. Not that I will ignore the horse until I'll ride him again, but I'm sure you know what I mean.


Thanks for reading these long posts *phew* and keep 'em coming! It would be very nice to hear more from other riders who like me don't get a chance to realy bond with their horse... Not saying that the rest can't post, of course ;)

Olav

[Esther.D]

In general, I think it's the rider/handlers level of natural authority that decides the amount of mucking around. (Esther's horses aside ).

Does that mean I am not allowed to have more natural authority than Stephen just cos I am a girl? :p Mine are rather than exception though...they have rather too large an allowance of brain for their handlers good :D

[galadriel]

Or to nail the most fundamental question: What can I do in order to best form a good, 1 1/2 hour relationship with a new horse that both will enjoy?

I think you have it more or less pegged when you speak of "natural authority," though I'd call it attitude--the way that you comport yourself when around the horses. If you assume that you're the ranking horse in the situation, and that as long as that's accepted both of you will have fun...probably 95% of the time the horse will agree with you :)

Something you touched on earlier was consistency. I think if you have clearly defined rules and situations, then you're more likely to get cooperation. But if, as you said, sometimes it's okay to eat under saddle and sometimes it's not--and there's not clear defining line as to when it is permissible--you're going to get a confused horse who doesn't want to play anymore. If you enforce the rules all the time, you get a horse who's much more willing to listen than if you are unpredictable about enforcing the rules. Another way to consider it, too, is:
Horses don't know when it "doesn't count," so it ALWAYS has to count. That is, if you don't enforce the rules all the time, and sometimes let the horse get away with it...someday he's going to push the limits at a time which is deathly serious, and not know the difference.

You might want to check out this thread:
http://www.newrider.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20000

Here's my post from the thread above:
You don't have to be aggressive to be the leader. All you have to do is realize that you can't be a partner; at some point YOU are the one making the decisions. If you spend your time being nice to the horse and asking what he wants and never assert yourself, he will get confused.

You don't have to spend the whole time demanding that he do things exactly your way, but if you never say, "Okay, we're going to do [X] now. Okay, we're going to do [Y] now" then eventually HE starts trying to determine what the two of you will do; he sees a leadership vacuum and he tries to fill it.

Some horses are much more passive and in order to lead them you have to be more specific; with every step tell them what to do: stay on the rail, go straight, maintain a nice working walk, straight straight straight. Some horses are able to be more independent, and your leadership may be limited to picking out which jump you're taking on the cross-country course: gallop gallop gallop, hey go over THAT one! gallop gallop gallop :) But you are still the one deciding what the two of you will do overall.

[Peace]

I guess I think of my relationship to the horses in my life as coach-to-player. I'm trying to help them acheive their best performance, and how I react when they fall short of it largely depends on why they're having problems. This is tough with a schoolhorse with whom you might work only an hour and a half or so per month, which is why I never liked having to switch horses all the time.:)

For example, I dealt with one schoolmare who was the quintessential grump on the ground. I think she did it because she was unhappy with being a schoolhorse, and letting her know her threats upset me was the best way to ensure she continued them. Laughing and calling out "No biting" in a sing-song voice actually put a stop to most of it. And she always did just what I asked under saddle, at least after the first few lessons.

On the other hand, Quanah truly wants to please me (most of the time). When he out and out refuses to do something, it's usually either because he's unsure of himself, or unsure of me. I find the best response is usually first to reassure him that he is quite capable of performing, and if that doesn't work to assure him that non-performance will lead to more trouble from me than the problems he was worried about in the first place.;) OK, my role models have mostly been grumpy old mares.:) But they do generally get their way, don't they.

[OlavS]

Esther, of course not! On the contrary, I'm sure you have much more authority than Stephen as you've had more experience with horses. And I'm sure that most women are better at drawing the line and sticking to it than most men. Maybe in our minds we think we can rely on muscle power to get things done if push comes to shove...or that you simply have a clearer mental image of the rules :)

But you said your horses have a gender issue, which is why in their case gender plays part too. (And therefore, as far as I know, differ from most other horses who seem to treat men and women the same.)

Galadriel, thanks for your post and the link.
And Peace, naturally I like to ride just one or two horses regularly, but it's not my choice most of the time.

Do you have any examples of how to behave and give the right attitude? Not asking for an exhaustive list, just a few basic do's and dont's to get the right idea and starting point. Can it even be taught or will one only develop this with time and exposure?

[galadriel]

I think it's something you have to work out by trial and error, but here's how I think of it:

I *am* superior to this horse; I *do* outrank him and he IS going to do what I say.

As long as you feel that way and demonstrate it physically (walk tall, stand straight, in all ways assume that you are the dominant partner), you almost never have to enforce it. You get a happy to cooperate, willing equine.

I think it's getting that belief down--I mean, you have to believe it wholly. It can be a little tough, when you're working with this huge creature that you know could hurt you if he wanted. It's up to you to make him not want to ;) simply by the way you walk, the way you stand, the way you express yourself.

I like Peace's "coach" analogy--nice one :) If you view yourself in such a way, if you *believe* it and as a result you firmly believe that the horse is going to listen to you, you're all set :) your body language will reflect it, and the horses will see it. Wrap yourself in that belief :)

Trying to come up with positions people might have been in to help you recognize the feeling; think about a younger sibling. Suppose kid sister or kid brother comes to you for help on homework, in your best subject. You feel a bit superior, you are dead set solid on the topic, you know *exactly* what you're doing, and you are in a position to promote yourself in sibling rivalry ;) by being better than your sibling. Now, you don't *dislike* your sibling; you probably care a great deal about your sibling. And you're not a better person than your sibling. But in this instance, you're in the know, in the right, and in charge--right? It's a pretty powerful feeling. It's a kind of secure feeling of leadership.

That's about the sort of feeling you should exhibit in dealing with a horse. You probably adore the horse--or why else would you be riding?--and you'd like to have a nice relationship with him. But YOU are the leader; you're in the know and in charge. As long as you feel that way and show it clearly, horse will believe it and act accordingly...like kid brother or kid sister.

[Silver1]

Originally posted by OlavS

Most riders have been there. Standing in the middle, kicking, getting shouted at for not whipping harder, getting the instructor to whip, smack cluck and yell in order to get you moving etc.
No offence, but this is especially true for young girls it seems. The pony will not move no matter what, and is deemed lazy (but perhaps thereby safe for novice riders?)

Hi Olav!
Unfortunately, young girls can be the most spoiled rotten creatures in the world. I had the honor of seeing a couple of such kids pulling violently on the horses reins and furiousely kicking her horse to try and get it to back up. And they wonder why school horses are dead to the leg!

But that makes me wonder... Surely if the horse/rider companionship is to work so that the rider provides the brains (descisions, comfort and support), and the horse provides the body, he must trust AND obey his rider?

I at least believe that to be correct. If someone was holding a gun to your head and said "Love me, carry me around on your back, obey my every whim and I'll consider letting you live" how would you feel? You might pretend to love them out of fear, you might tolerate them on your back and follow their directions, but you wouldn't trust them at all.

If so, how many riders out there are actually taught the importance of outranking their horse in order to be in control? Or rather, how many riders gets pushed about on the ground, and used as a scratching post, then wonder why the horse won't obey during the lesson?

Hmmm...thats a give or take situation right there. Most kids HERE are taught that they should beat their horse every 5 minutes to remind it that they're #1. Fortunately, at my new ranch I have not yet seen one person do more then smack their horse. No one "saws" a horses mouth off, and if a horse gets crack on the rump, they usually deserve it. ;)

We all know that if we're given a crop/whip then our rank rises a few steps immediately. We don't even have to use it, just let the horse know we've got it.

Yeah, but little good it does you on the ground unfortunately. Hauling a whip everywhere grooming and tacking andwhat not gets bothersome.

I know some people will kick or bite their horse if the horse did it to them first. A farrier may hit a horses if the horse plays up. Which is fine I guess, if the horse was just being mischievous or moody, and caused a dangerous situation. (After all, they don't realise how fragile we are.)

What do you do to to let him know that you're in charge?
Where do you draw the line?
For those who ride mares, will you let her off more easily when in heat, or no difference?

I own a mare, and the answer is she gets treated the same way heat or not. I never kick or bite my horse PERIOD. If Mear does something wrong, I usually assume its either a lack of understanding. If its something she knows rock solid, then I assume its either a case of the sillies, or I see if there is a reason for her behaving like that. If there isn't anything, then I give her a light smack (with a slightly cupped hand so that it makes a big noise but doesn't hurt) and tell her BE GOOD! Which usually abruptly ends the sillies. ;)

Ok, let the flaming begin :p

Olav [/B]

[ponytude]

Sorry I am over the thing of last night:roll eyes: :D Yah I have seen way to many riders yank, pull, kick, shout till their red in the face(Go, I said stop!, torot, trot TROT!!!), scream at other riders when the rider cant comtrol their horse. Yah way to many times.

[Silver1]

ugh, and don't you love those manners? Turning LEFT into a show ring (I believe your supposed to turn right to avoid collisions)

and the other day I was on a trail ride, and I had to turn around and ASK this guy to take his horses nose out of my horses tail. Because it was LITERALLY under it!

[OlavS]

Thanks Galadriel, that was just what I was looking for.
*wrapping myself in belief..only to find that it doesn't cover all of me just yet :p*
And Peace's coach/trainer version is definately something to strive for. But probably easier with a horse you know really well.

Silver1, a smack with a cupped hand sounds like a gentle way to tell a horse off. Well, in case a sharp voice doesn't suffice.

The young girls at my riding school are very kind to the horses, in fact several of them have spend their entire summer holiday there helping out and riding. They love the horses to bits, and mistreatment or rough behaviour is frowned upon.

I was suggesting that the horse's reason for not moving was that it might have been thinking
*OI! I understand your commands perfectly well, but you have no power/authority over me, I can mess you about as I like (just like when you tacked up), so right now I'll just stand here because that's what *I* want to do. The discomfort of your whip won't make me comply, you wuss. Might get you bucked off, though*

Now IF the horse thought that then perhaps the rider could show more authority/attitude and make the horse think
*I accept your authority/leadership although we have no bond or affection, and will perform within reason* or at least
*You don't really rank above me - I'll decide as much as you. I'm not thrilled about doing what you want, but I'll do it anyway to avoid the whip. My heart won't be in it, though*

But the horse might not think along these lines at all :o

I do wish I had the opportunity to build a relationship with a horse, though, maybe someday I'll get a share horse... ;)

[Peace]

Now this is just my opinion, based on my admittedly brief experience, but here's what I believe the horses I know are thinking sometimes:) :

"You know, human, one of us has to be in charge of things here. Why? I suppose you haven't heard about that tiger that nearly ate Old Paint last week. Yes, wild beasts are lurking out there, don't you doubt it. Oh, you'd like to be leader? Well, that'd be great, really, because I'd much prefer not to have to deal with it - leaves more time for me to think deep equine thoughts. But before I can relax and let you be in charge, I'll have to make sure you're capable of protecting the both of us."

Horse then proceeds to evaluate human. How quick are its little biped reflexes? How well does the little creature behave under stress? Can't have a herd leader who goes all bug-eyed at the least thing.;)

Then, depending on how well horse thinks human has performed its equine evaluation, horse either lets human be leader, or not. :)

[JustBetMe]

This is a long chat and I must post before I can get through reading all the other replies...

I think everyone has to start somewhere, horse rubs on you and won't let you bridle it, moves when you try to mount, won't move well under saddle. It is a starting point and may take a long time to work through (with lots of hard work and help from instructor or friends) but eventually rider/handler and horse should reach a point of not dominance but partnership. In my opinion.

I have had my first horse, mare, for just 13 months. She was a broodmare, not handled much, and I was a complete greenie myself (still am!). Just last week we had an epiphany in our relationship that told me we are finally good partners. Each day is new and she tests me everytime I get her from the pasture to work. A partnership is just that, give and take, not one dominating the other. One may lead, but not dominate.

Okay, now I will finish reading everyone's thoughts.

:)

Okay, have to add a bit here: Yes I agree that a person must do some "dominating" things to communicate to the horse that they are not to step on you, they must listen to you, etc. But hopefully it is not something that happens each moment you are together. I don't want a dog, I want a horse that is a working horse, that can think and not just wait and follow each command I give.

[Santorium]

Human = predator
Horse = prey

I once had a lesson where I forgot that nugget of information, and it was the worst lesson of my life. Never ever again.