Your Horse Magazine...............

[Monty]

OK then. There's something here that I really don't quite understand, and it's making me feel quite frustrated.
Here I am, striving for this classical (ish) seat, that for physical reasons, I may never achieve. But I still try...cos it looks so nice, and there's no doubt that our nags like it.
Now then. Open Mags on page 77. Tina Sederholme seems to be busy, especially on p78 manipulating someone into the right position. Back to the bottom of page 77, a series of four pics of what I would consider to be a rather overhorsed young lady (but that's just my opinion...perhaps I'm bitter cos I can't get ON big horses!!!!!), in some very strange riding positions. I refer mostly to the one that catches her in the rise of the trot, and the last one, where her neck is craned forward. Rachel would be in a frenzy if I locked my elbows like that. She feels justified in frenzying,if it involves a part of my body not affected by my disability!! I looked for the bit of text that said..."how NOT to do it", and couldn't find it.
Now I'm really confused, cos Heather nearly threw wobbly when she saw a photo of me so upright at trot, with my knees locked in that fashion.Also, read the bit about bobbing hats in Heather's EE book...That lass's hat must have nearly been going into orbit!!

Have I got this all wrong, or does that position look awful to anyone else too?? I thought the trot was meant to be a more forward & back motion and not such an 'up & down' one. Don't get me wrong, I can't get it right.... but this position seems to be being endorsed in a major equestrian magazine, and ridden by an able bodied rider.
I'm totally confused now.:confused:Please don't tell me I've been battling with completely the wrong image, for the last three years??

[Bebe]

I think It's Your Horse magazine that I've got this month! Anyway, if it's the right article I entirely agree.

I'm not a huge fan of Tina Sederholme though, everything she does in the articles seems to be exact opposite to what my 2 instructors say!

[nix]

Keep doing what you're doing Monty. This month's issue of YH is not the only one where I've seen some really cringeworthy pics associated with Tina's articles.

Some of her ideas aren't too bad at times, but imho none of the accompanying pictures ever seem to reflect this. However, in one article a few issues back she discussed all the aids and didn't even mention the seat and weight aids!!?! And then there was that dreaded "ride with the reins crossed" exercise ... the point of which was ...? :rolleyes:

[HairyCob]

It's definatley not just you Monty! I too have been confused by the apparant polar opposites displayed by our Heather and Tina Whatshername.........

Personally I don't like her articles, don't think much to her methods and never think she explains things particularly well (or, as someone else says, has pictures that show what she's on about very well).

Solution for me is only spend money on YH when Heather is in it and then skip Tina Whatshername's page and go straight to Heathers!!:D ;)

[chev]

I'm also in agreement. Actually if I'm honest a lot of what Tina Sederholme says makes no sense whatsoever to me. I'd assumed it was just me being a bit thick and not understanding the finer points of equitation rather than her waffling.

As for rising trot, I'm no expert but an instructor I had years ago told me that I should concentrate far less on "up down up down" which blocked the horse's freedom to move forward freely and instead to try to move with the horse, allowing the movement to be a forward one rather than vertical. Can't see how the rider in question can be doing that. She looks a bit like she's scared to go with the horse, like someone said "sit like this" so she is - at all cost! Very odd.

[Secret Trick]

We don't have that one over here yet! (I bought Your Horse the other day, it's the June/July issue!)

[Torny]

My advice is stick with Heather. (Enlightened Equitation)

I'd also like to comment on some of the Horse magazines in general. I have just recently stopped getting Horse Mags because:

1:everything seems to repeated in the Help sections, . It's either my horse is bucking, how do I feed a fat horse, he loses condition in winter etc.. Now I'm not saying it's wrong to ask but these questions have been answered. Can't people look in books, past Magazines or look on the internet where they tell you.

2: Schooling/Training: How confusing! there are so many different people trying to show how to ride that no one knows which is the right way (If there is a right way) Hence I replied to this post.

These mags are not cheap and I feel I'm buying a copy from extracts of the past magines, with so called 'new training'.
The only interesting section is the news and updates oh and letters from readers.

Don't know if anyone else feels the same :(

But yes, as I said before stick with Heather. I feel the way she rides, explains things and the positive effect it has on the horses just looks, sounds and definatly feels right to me.

[Monty]

Well, thanks for...glad I'm not going mad. At least I know my goal was right, even if I never QUITE reach it.
I've stopped getting horse magazines, the last couple of years, as they're expensive and repetitive. However, turn to back page (162), and you'll find my buddy Sarah. She's 17 and a shining example to all. Not a stuck up bone in her body, and definitely a future Paralympic contender me thinks. Proud to know her.

A'right then....Yes, Wally....it features our canter handle too! Designed by me, made by Wally, they're a definite RDA must have!!! You can't see it so well there. It looks like a very smart breast plate. However, in front of saddle, one strategically placed suitcase type handle. Suitable for mounting, transition into canter, unstable loads on spooky horses, and dismounting too, to avoid pulling mane/saddle or hurting neddy's back .Now long since been christened 'canter handle.'

[cvb]

I was reading a recent mag (Horse & Rider i think) which had a section on Body-Sculpting or Shaping or somesuch. Had flicked through when I first got the magazine and not really stopped to think. But this time I looked in more detail..

...and they seemed to be telling people to flatten out their lower back ?! They suggested you put a whip down the rider's back and then they move their spine back to meet it. (And these were folk from the TTT (Teachers Trust of Tomorrow ?) group)

Surely if you do that you have no absorption left, no spring or give ? I know you don't want to over arch - but this seemed to be going the other way.

Ho hum. Wonder how many they will have confused with that one.....(or maybe it was just my reading of it).

[Wally]

Fame at Last!:D

I am now prompted to go out tomorrow and buy a copy just to see the position.....and the "canter handle"

It's not just an RDA musthave, I use it when teaching folk to jump and canter as it it easier and more stable than a neckstrap.

[Wally]

....as for flatening out your lordosis(sp) the curve in your lumber area, this is positively dangerous!

I ended up in a wheelchair about 10 years ago with a back injury, I spent years with physios and osteopaths who told me that AT ALL COSTS, KEEP YOUR LORDOSIS! I was also diagnosed with Sheurman's (sp)desease at the same time. (Monty is that one you've heard of because I cannot find reference to it anywhere)


This meant, as I didn't have a shower then, I had to kneel in the bath, allowing my lower back to flatten was the greatest crime you could commit. 10 years on I took thier advice and protected my back through keeping a correct curve I can now shoe 3 horses one after the other and suffer few effects of a bad back!

Please don't do what they are saying and making your spine go straight , it was built with a kink in it for a reason. I wouln't want anyone to go through what I went through, neither would I want to go through it again. KEEP YOUR LORDOSIS!(sp) Monty how do you spell it?

[Bebe]

I don't tend to buy horse mags anymore either, in fact the one I have got at the minute was given to me by someone else. Can't remember the last time I actually bought one.

If you didn't know the time of year you could guess it from the horse mags. They pull out the same articles (pretty much) year after year - so at the moment its all going to be rugs, clippers, winter coats and if we're lucky an article from an enlightened person who after 30 years of horse ownership has suddenly realised that horses can manage to live outside when it's a bit cold and wet.

Wouldn't mind if the articles said anything new (laminitis ones usually do) but they don't tend to.

[cvb]

I was giving them the benefit of the doubt in case it was just my reading of (& reaction to) it, but it seemed a bit weird to me. There seems to be an assumption that having the outside of your back perfectly straight means that your spine is straight and balanced etc. Whereas (as Wally says) its not designed that way.

It just struck me as odd to have what are effectively advanced trainers putting forward such a view in a national magazine.

ah well, at least newrider folk won't be deceived !

[casey]

I trained under Tina sederholme's father for years and can tell you he was a master horseman in every sense of the word. There isn't a horse alive that he couldn't get a tune out of.

I havent seen the article so cant comment on the pictures, but will say, I know tina and she sure knows her stuff.

[kyanya]

This is the pic in Horse + Rider, which CVB referred to

[kyanya]

And this is the text with it

[Monty]

As a horsewoman and an orthopaedic nurse....only one word springs to mind. Unnatural.

[casey]

Thanks for showing the article, Which proves my point, Tina's methods of training are, indeed, very sound. To be honest, I cant see what people are finding fault with this article for.

Your horse magazine is designed for the amateur rider. How many riders do you see slump forward or have their backsides too far back on the saddle.

Forget the whip for a moment..... the girl in the picture has a Great posture. Sitting on seat bones with bottom tucked under shoulders square.

The whip is merely there to show how the body should be alligned. Lets face it, you cant get to Tina's level of riding without a sound knowledge base.

[Heather]

HI folks,

I am sorry but I agree with most of you who have commented- rising to the trot in the way depicted is blocking the back of the horse and the ride will be behind the movement. Anyone who has ever had me demonstrate this to them with the simulator, will know exactly what I mean. I was asked by Cambridge Vet school to do a lecture on 'Riding related injuries to the Horse' a couple of years back and also demonstrated this to the 175 vet students present.

I get a 'guinea-pig' to place their hand between the machine and under the cantle region of the saddle. I then ride the machine in the way depicted in the article- guinea-pig has hand squashed, well and truly. I then ride the machine allowing the movement to propel me, landing with my pelvis slightly in front of the vertical, which allows it to be propelled forwards again by the horse's own momentum. Guinea pig doesn't feel my 11 stone even touch down in the saddle.. The vets were astonished at the difference. There is a reflex point just under the cantle that allows the back to raise, or when depressed will cause it to drop, and the back to hollow.

It also causes the horse to slow it's stride. I always demonstrate at lecture demos on horses I have never ever seen or sat on before- including the Equine Event this November, when again I will be riding a borrowed horse that I have never seen before. I can guarantee that as soon as I ride the horse with my pelvis too upright in RT the horse will either slow down or stop dead. Biomechanically, it just does not make sense. Watch some of the greatest dressage riders in the world, the late Reiner Klimke for instance and and even greater favourite of mine, his son Michael, and many more I could use as examples, and you would never ever see them rising to the trot in this way. Sure if the horse is a very big mover, the pelvis will be thrown over the pommel, coming upright in this phase, but on a smaller moving horse this will never happen unless the rider is unnecessarily thrusting the pelvis forward and back.

Regarding the straight spine- fine, at the halt!! To not move the lower back at all is not natural- try walking with your back flattened and pelvis tucked under- and you will look as if you havent made it to the loo on time!! The higher the level of collection of the horse the less the riders back will need to move, the pelvis staying more upright, but this idea of flattening out the natural slight hollow in the back will render the lower back inflexible and therefore incapable of absorbing the movement with ease. Then the rider resorts to driving with the seat- ie polishing the saddle so as not to get bounced out of the plate. This is not only ugly as it is the cause of the nodding head and flailing lower leg, but also renders the rider incapable of feeling what is going on under them and also will not allow the movement of the horse's back 'through' , as the rider's seat is moving in one piece, not in two halves like the horse's back.

I only go by observing the best riders in the world and even more so, by the reaction of the horse. Tina teaches her way, I teach mine- it is up to the individual to choose what they feel they prefer, and to make up their mind what their horse prefers, because he is, after all, the most important judge of all!

Heather

[Kerry's Partner]

True to form (our form and our standards)..............I haven't (and Kerry hasn't been taught to read) carefully read all of the preceding posts!! BUT, listening to the horse....................well I could never, and Kerry would never, accept anything less.

[Kerry's Partner]

I've read your initial post. imo you haven't got it wrong at all - since I was introduced to "bobbing" heads (Heather this is your fault!!!!!!!!!!) I agree they are SOOOOOOOOOOOO ugly - btw I HOPE mine doesn't bob but perhaps it does - I would never kn ow I guess.

I suppose I'm going to have to buy that magazine again.

All the very best.

Sandra

[casey]

Good discussion going on here.. But I must say, My comments were based solely on the pictures posted as I haven't read the article. But as Heather points out, all trainers have different approaches to training.

[cvb]

Just to clarify - the pictures are not of Tina S's article, but of something else in Horse & Rider from two TTT trainers.

[casey]

Hurrah, I thought I was going mad there for a moment. I always believed Tina's methods were based on a strong foundation of horsemanship. Thanks cvb.:)

[Rakeli]

After reading her 'Your Horse' articles I am not a great fan of Tina! Lars Sederholm may have been a great rider amd trainer, I don't know, but I don't think that it's rubbed off on her. I won't forget the '2 steps to get your horse on the bit' by fixing the reins into the neck. Icck.

casey - even if the magazine is aimed at the amateur rider, what is to be gained from giving ideas and aims for a position that's wrong? Surely it would make more sense to show them the correct position, ie, not a flattened lordosis, so that they could aim for that and not have to 'get' their natural lordosis 'back' at a later date when they are no longer an amateur?

[casey]

Rakeli - My observations were based on the pictures shown, not the article in itself as I don't buy the magazine.

I didn't understand the lordosis bit in your comments, perhaps im having a blond day, but lordosis is a medical condition of a spine which for one reason or another has become straightened either in the lower back or between the shoulder blades. I know this, because I have it. And it is a painful condition. It is NOT something you can get from sitting straight on a horse.;)

[Rakeli]

casey - I thought that your lordosis was the natural curve in your lower back? :confused: I have an excessive lordosis, or sway back, which means that my lower back has too much curve in it. If I was to try to sit like the article suggests I would be putting my weight onto the horses loins, as well as making me tense (and believe me, I have enough tension as it is! :rolleyes: )

Maybe I should re-phrase my previous post replacing lordosis with the natural curve of the lower back?

[Wally]

Lordosis is the natural curve in your spine, to flatten it out is asking for trouble as you are putting unnatural stresses on your vertabrae which are stacked in a curve, not straight.

Perhaps you are thinking of sculliosis which is curvature of the spine in a sidey ways curve?

[nix]

Excerpt from the US National Library of Medicine:

"The spine has three types of curves:

Kyphotic, which typically refers to the outward curve of the thoracic spine (at the level of the ribs)
Lordotic, which refers to the inward curve of the lumbar spine (just above the buttocks)
Scoliotic, which is a sideways curvature of the spine and which is always abnormal

A small degree of both kyphotic and lordotic curvature is normal. Exaggeration of the kyphotic curve is described as round shoulders or hunched shoulders (the medical term is Scheuermann's disease). Exaggeration of the lordotic curve is often called swayback (the medical term is lordosis)."

I'll see if I can't post the Tina pics at some point over the next couple of days ... I still feel that they illustrate poor rather than good riding.

[Monty]

Thank you nix.

[casey]

Now im officially confused and my blond hair has turned pure white. Nix - an earlier post said the picture's wern't from Tina but another TTT trainer.:confused:

[nix]

Hi casey

The pics previously posted were a digression, pointing out that Your Horse is not the only publication that appears to have gone somewhat off-track regarding photographs of what is generally considered as good riding. Hope this helps and leaves you feeling somewhat less confused. :)

[kathyt1]

The trouble is that people read these magazines and the articles all contradict each other to some degree or other. Unless you have the experience to be able to take the good and disregard the rubbish you will end up very confused indeed:D
As Kerry's Partner very rightly said "listen to the horse", however very few people do. My partner was chatting to the girl taking us out on a hack the other week and she was asking how well he could ride. He replied that he could walk, trot, canter and jump about 2 foot, that he had been riding about a year and that I had taught him out on hacks. He also very strongly suggested that the horse he rides 90% of the time had also taught him a great deal, you should have seen the look she gave him:( I really don't think it had ever occured to her that a horse could teach you anything. Needless to say her offer of "proffessional" lessons were not taken up!

[Silver1]

would it be too much to ask to see the pictures in The Horse? I take Horse and Rider, but don't have The Horse. If it helps I've also seen some pretty bad slip ups in most every horse magazine I've seen at least once. Its not the magazines fault, just happens I guess.

If its not also too much to ask, can someone explain (prefferably in small simple words as far away from complicated as possible) whats wrong so that I can avoid doing it on my horse? I'm usually pretty blind to fault. :o

Sorry if this is an inapropriate request.

[$@R@H]

Lately my tutor has been telling me to Straighten out the lil curve in my lower back(above me bum!)
I thought it felt rather un-comfortable and made no difference to my riding.

Is it bad for my back to do this?(I have to be sure so if she tells me to do it again I can refuse too on the bases it will screw up my back)

[Maria]

Your base riding position should have the curve in your lower back in a neutral/mid-position - ie so that you can flex it in an amount equal to the amount you can straighten it. This gives you scope to use the flexion to absorb the horse's movement.

You should not ride with the curve straightened out all the time - you'll have no flexion to absorb the horse's movement with.

[Rakeli]

$@R@H - Unless you have a sway back there is really nothing that you should do to your lower back. If you are sway backed, as I am, your lower back looks basically permenantly hollow, which is why your instructor may be telling you to straighten it. Stand in the mirror sideways, as you normally would stand. Basically if your bum sticks out more than the average bum ( ;) ) and the curve looks extreme, you probably have a sway back.

If you do have a sway back, my instructor told me to 'soften' slightly at the bottom of the rib cage. This folds your upper body forwards slightly, straigtens out the excess curve and ensures that you are not putting any weight on the horses loins ina n attempt to flatten the excess curve.

If your back is normal, leave it alone!

[Monty]

Most people who are 'sway backed' as you call it ;) or in medical terms have an exaggerated lumbar lordosis, have other problems, which caused this in the first place (usually related to the hip joint), so unfortunately, if you correct one thing another bad 'habit' (though it's not a habit at all) will creep in to compensate. Often it's impossible to do anything about it, and you just (and I quote Chev here!!!;) ) have to forgive it!

[De_lady]

I have found that with most horse magazines these days that along with the repetitve stuff, some articles just reflect what seen in todays show rings. Not learning how to be one with your horse when riding, Just how to look nice on your horse and find a quick fix to all of his problems.

I think the whip/ spine article might work..............If the horse doesn't move!!!LOL

De_lady

[Wally]

I'm not sure I'd like to stand in the showring for hours on end waiting for the judge to get to me in THAT posture, given that the horse does not move, I'm convinced that I'd be uncomfy.

Has anyone ever seen sheep racing where they stick rag dolls on the backs of sheep and do mini grand nationals with them. The dolls have a broom handle up thier backs. My sad brain keeps bringing up the mental image of these rag dolls with ramrod backs charging about on the backs of sheep, and I reduce myself to a sniggering heap. :D :D :D ;)

[makebelieve]

Sorry to be a bit late in post,

I have the Sept edition of Horse and Rider, and come to think of it, it looks really different that what I'm used to.

Silver, its a 16 page pullout. It shows excersises and posture tips-I read it all, just didn't sink in. I don't think I'd ever try any of their warm-ups.

[LindaAd]

Originally posted by Monty
Most people who are 'sway backed' as you call it ;) or in medical terms have an exaggerated lumbar lordosis, have other problems, which caused this in the first place (usually related to the hip joint), so unfortunately, if you correct one thing another bad 'habit' (though it's not a habit at all) will creep in to compensate. Often it's impossible to do anything about it, and you just (and I quote Chev here!!!;) ) have to forgive it!

I hope you're not right about this Monty - I have a sway back, always have had, and I remember my mother always saying that I was just like her sister and her mother.. So I assumed it was inherited, and I live with it. Riding instructors never seem to find it a problem - maybe I have too many more obvious problems! - But I think my back has definitely straightened out since I've been riding a lot.

[cvb]

I think its the kind of thing you have to be continually aware of - and bad habits aren't isolated to those with existing problems !

I used to get bad migraines til I did some Alexander Technique work. I now get them much more rarely and much less severly - so neck tension was clearly part of it but I was never particularly aware I had a 'problem' ! I haven't been able to get to an AT session for some time now, and I know I am reverting a little (so am on a quest to find a new trainer to work with :) )