Canter pirouettes

[Wally]

Heather,

Where should one look ( shoulder and head position ) when executing a canter pirouette? I was taught, not so long back, to corkscrew round in the direction of the movement at the start of the exercise.
This seems to me awfully innelegant.
Please enlighten me!

[Heather]

HI Wally, yes you should look in the direction of a canter pirouette, but not to screw your head off! In a canter pirouette ( if you ever get a chance to get hold of a copy, watch Kalman de Jurenak's wonderful video Classical Schooling 2 available from Equestrian Vision, BHS bookshop I think- it has the most wonderful canter pirouettes in the second half)the rider's inside shoulder and hip should be advanced, not the other way round, which is the way so many teach it.

It makes the horse lose balance and fall out through the outside shoulder instead of raising the inside one, so if performing a Canter pirouete to thr right for instance, the horse would of course be flexed to the right and moving around the rider's inside leg to the right, with the rider merely looking slightly into the direction of the movement, about the same amount that the horse is looking towards the right. If his head was screwed right round to the righht it would be very difficult for him to execute the movement- same goes for the rider. You were just right to question this!


Heather

[Wally]

Thanks you so much for this answer, I was told that as I was coming into the pirouette I was to turn and look over my shoulder in the direction of the exercise. It seemed so unnatural and somehow not right. I havn't got a horse up to these exercises at the moment, but it's something to try in future when Ljósfaxi gets there. (Frances stop sniggering!!)

You say so many times in your book "How could I have been so blind?" This is the feeling you give me as I read on.

I rode Rossi again (dyed in the wool trekker) the other day, I started to play with him in the ways you describe in your book. Usually he will plod along hanging on to your hands, nose poked and ears horizontal. Within the 3/4 of an hour riding him he pricked his ears softened (in a snaffle) and almost rounded. This from a 16 year old trekking horse used to passengers.

I'm going to try Ljóssie in a pelham, He may go mad, he may not, you can never tell with him!! I will start with an elastic curbstrap. Wish me luck!

I have a man who hates horses, can't see the point. When I told hom about your theory of the opposite hip leading and not turning and twisting in the dirction of the movement he looked at me as though I was mad and told me I should have been perfectly aware of this. I asked him why. He answered " You're a biker aren't you?" I had to aggree. He told me to anylyse a speedy turn on a motorbike, I told him it was common knowledge if you want to turn a right hand bend you actually turn the handle bars ever so slightly LEFT. (opposite locking, try it free wheeling on a pushbike, on a wide sweeping bend you actually do turn the bars in the opposite way to the turn) The penny went with such a clang.

Horses and Motorbikes are not as far apart as they may seem.

Thanks Heather.

[Heather]

Glad to be of service, Wally. I am right in assuming you have Icelandics? I have just had three Icelandic breeders here today, Nick and Mic Foot, and Elma Middell from Holland. Do you know any of them?

Heather

[Wally]

I know Nic and Mic very well. Don't know the Elma.

Nic ans Mic have some very nice horses. They spend mega bucks on them.

Nic has studies with Mary Wanless, and is now one of her instructors.

[Heather]

I know, Nic owns the RWYM egroup- afraid the Wanless approach is all a bit too cerebral and complicated for my simple little brain. I don't know what Nick thought of my methods- he originally wanted to come because he was dicussing some points of my book on the RWYM site, and I invited him to come down and see what we do. He couldn't come at the time as I managed to end up in hospital with pneumonia, but he spent a whole afternoon with me yesterday. He seemed interested, but I haven't heard anything as to whether he approved or not!

Heather

[Heather]

HI Wally,

Nick has posted a short, but very complimentary email on UK rec equestrian, so I have been told. I am really glad that he was truly happy with what he saw. I liked he and Mic a lot, and Elma from Holland was a really lovely lady. I can honestly say that the Icelandic owner/riders that I have met are some of the nicest folk in the horse world.I also know Sabine Fox, another super girl, Robyn Hood, and Sabine is bringing Magnus Larssen (hope the spelling is correct, my Icelandic is about as non-existent as my Outer Mongolian!) down next time he is over.


Heather

[Wally]

Magnús Larusson speaks perfect English, He's a lovely man, HUGE 6 feet 4 at least,( wide as well as tall!) loud, funny and paints lovely mental images. He was the first person to introduce me to swinging seatbones!.
Make sure you have LOTS of Coka Cola in if he comes and if he stays to lunch put on an extra pan of tatties!!

He is a very interesting man to tallk to, you'll love him.

Nic and Mic are a hoot too.

Sabine is, as you say a lovely person, really kind.

Magnús has his own website. it's http://www.gauksmyri.is I think, it's from 2 to 1. Two minds becoming one.

[Edited by Wally on 13th Oct 2000 at 08:54 PM]

[Heather]

HI Wally,

Sabine brought a video of Magnus with her last time she was down, so I knew he was a big guy! Mind you, my ex-husband was 6'4" and my Dutch boyfriend is also, so I am used to tall broad men!

I look forward to meeting Magnus.

Heather

[Wally]

Heather you did make me laugh when you said you thought the Mary Wanless approach too cerebral, there is hope for me then!

Nic is a highly intelligent man, and can leave the best of us behind sometimes.

[Heather]

One thing worth bearing in mind- great Hungarian trainer Kalman de Jurenak has as his motto, 'Simplicity is an Art'. I had ten PhD's in various subjects here on courses in eight weeks a couple of years ago. I asked them why they came to me for teaching. The reply was because you make it easy to understand.I just don't believe in making something complicated when the actuality is really perfectly simple!


Heather

[Wally]

AMEN to that!

Blinding folk with science never did do any one any good.

I have to say I always thought that sort of prescision equitation was beyond me. After experimenting with your methods on a lot of ours I am afraid I'm going to have to re-school myself. I'm a great beleiver in the idea a horse can be taught anything at any age, just going to have to have a taste of my own medicine!

Tomorrow I'm going to fly in the face of FEIF and FIPO and try my little Icelandic in a Pelham. I used to use on eon a horse I had a few years back, but at a training session held by an Icelandic trainer, I was told to take it off and put a snaffle with welded knobbles in his mouth, the results were very poor, but I had no choice as the Pelham is illegal for competitions. It turned out that this trainer had not come across a Pelham before and was ignorant of it's use, They only have the barbaric Icelandic curb, 8 inch+ shank, every thing else is a snaffle action.

I have to say the best results I got with this particular horse was with a short shank, weymouth bit on it's own. Unorthodox I know but he went like a dream in it. I shall now, armed with the affirmation from you, go forth with my Pelham and conquer all. Well.... I'll see what happens. I alwayss did like a Pelham

[Edited by Wally on 15th Oct 2000 at 09:58 PM]

[Heather]

HI Wally.

Let me know how it goes with your Icelandic in the Pelham.

Re: precision equitation, there is nothing more precise than Classical Equitation, where the aids are not even visible when properly applied, and the riders movements so small as to appear at one with the horse. When you have about 101 analogies and images to think of, plus having to 'bear down as if ahem...... passing your daily motion or in childbirth', precision is the last thing that usually comes about. I had one lady who had been on courses in these methods who hadn't cantered her horse in the school for a year, because she couldn't think of all the images and analogies, and actually also apply the aids for canter!

My simulators reaction to 'bearing down' was very interesting too, when Nic and Elma tried it. The machine bounced around in just the same way as when I deliberately demonstrate the 'driving seat'- an abomination for the horse's back. Seems bearing down produced a similar reaction from the machine. We did not build it to do these things- it happens purely because the rider is opposing the movement. Think what it does to a horse,if a machine reacts like this.


Heather

[Wally]

I had heard this bearing down analogy and tried it. It's not such a good idea when you've had kids!... the last thing you need is to encourage the old waterworks to fail.

[Heather]

Ps. Have heard of a couple of prolapses cuased by overuse of this er......technique.



Heather

[Wally]

By the look on the faces of some of the fok I've seen practicing the technique I'm not surprised!

[Maisie]

Huh? I'm really getting confused now...I tried bearing down, and it helped enormously!

And another thing...I'm beginning to notice something going on between Heather's methods and Mary's methods...Heather says Mary's methods induces stiff backs, and in one of Mary's books there was the statement that flexing the lower back enables the rider to sit fairly comfortably, but drowns out the intricate movement of the horse's back...it's like the two are polarizing each other!!! :eek:
The two methods are DIFFERENT! This shouldn't be happening! :eek:

[Edited by Maisie on 18th Oct 2000 at 09:17 AM]

[Wally]

I rode our recently backed youngster today and tried the pinch technique with him, and for comparison the bearing down bit.

Sadly I found the pinch technique so much better than the other that I have to say I for one am convinced of it's use.

I literally had him stopping, (after only riding 100 yard down the road,) on a sixpence with no intervention from the reins. I have to add that he stopped smartly without hollowing. I also found that steering with Heather's method on such a green horse was an experience, he was so balanced, I'm wondering if this horse is a genious or whether it's Heather's methods

[Heather]

HI Maisie,

I don't agree with anything that can cause my machine to bounce- for the simple reason that it reacts because of opposition to movement.

I ride reasonably well, according to other folk who have watched me, and my students usually get high marks for their riding in dressage tests. Last years working student Sarah, landed a top job in Germany training and competing young dressage horses, beating other English, but also German applicants, some of whom had competed at a higher level than Sarah. However, all of my studenst achieve this without ever being taught to bear down, nor do they
do I do it naturally as some RWYM teachers have suggested.
Diaphragmatic breathing, as practised by singers has been said to be the same as 'bearing down', but it isn't the same at all. My father is a trained bass soloist, and the diaphragmatic breathing that he practised when singing, lifts the ribcage and and the feeling if anything is of 'bearing up', not down. I have tried this on my simulator, and the machine doesn't react violently in the least. I use this as a test because if the action is not opposing the movement, then the machine will not react adversely.

If 'bearing down' helps you, Maisie, then by all means practise it, but I have had to sort out so many confused riders who have tried this, and have practically stopped breathing in their efforts to simulate childbirth or whatever.

I have taught literally hundreds of people of all ages shapes and abilities, to ride very successfully in thirty years, and I have not found it necessary yet to resort to these methods which are very open to misinterpretation.

I went to a MW demonstration last year, and she spent an hour and a half correcting a rider's position, with all manner of convoluted explanations. One rather important factor had escaped her notice- the saddle was tipping badly backwards, taking the rider's pelvis with it, and drawing the knees up, throwing the whole seat out of balance. Even a simple 'riser' pad under the cantle would have jacked the saddle up temporarily to enable the rider to sit in balance , but no, it wasn't even mentioned.

I could have sat that rider on the simulator and had her sorted out in five minutes flat, and I am not boasting. It has amazed me that Mary has shown absolutely no interest in the simulator, even though I phoned her when I first had it and told her about it.

If she had been the one with the machine, I would have bashed her door down if needs be, to get hold of one! It saves the horse so much discomfort, and even downright pain, and the pupil hours and even years of frustration.

Sorry, I know that it is probably unprofessional of me to openly criticize another trainer's methods, but I get weary of the stream of riders who come to me to have their brains unscrambled by unnecessarily complex teaching techinques.


Heather

[Heather]

HI Wally.

It's called simple biomechanics- in other words working as closely with your horse's body as possible, utilising his own responses in a positive way. I make absolutely no claims to genius, as I am sure neither would your horse. Thes are not even 'my' methods, but have been passed on to me in time honoured Classical tradition. Glad to be able to pass them on to you!


Heather

[Kathy C]

Maisie, I think Heather would agree that EXCESSIVE flexing of the rider's lower back is detrimental so maybe there isn't such a big difference of opinion. I believe that Mary states that all of the movement in the rider should come from the hip joints (correct me if I am wrong), but I can't envisage how that could happen without there being SOME movement in the lower back, otherwise the upper body would have to move. If you have a look at the video clip of Heather's equisimulator in use on this site, I think you can see that the movement is in the hip joint AND the lower back and that makes perfect sense to me. I think the bottom line is that the movement in the rider's back should be the amount dictated by the horse's back and anything in excess of this could impede the horse's movements.
Dunno about bearing down though, I don't really understand what it means and it sounds wierd to me!

Kathy C

[Mossy]

Pardon me putting in my two penny worth but I think I have found the best of both worlds. After one disastrous instructor, I have found a lady who is on the MW list but is also au fait with Heather's methods. So far I have found no conflict, and no reliance on analogies. Mossy is going a dream, and Connie so far seems to get on with her. As folks will know from previous posts I have a mare who is no lover of the human race en mass, she has no reason to be, and decides who she trusts when the individual human has earned it, or not!
She is now relaxed enough to allow the dogs to play chase under her tum when she is standing on three legs. For those who saw her in July, some improvement. I was two line lunging her today, for the first time and very gently, when the dogs escaped from the tack room. I was expecting chaos but she carried on listening to me with a Collie and German Sheperd hurtling around in an unauthorised and illdisciplined fashion. I was very impressed with her.

[Nic]

My daughter and her pony have worked very hard together over the past year and we are now getting the results. She says that sometimes she only has to think canter and Cassie does it. Is this just in tune, or is she sending some subtle signal without really knowing it. Only six months ago this pony was running into canter and now they can do a walk to canter transition with little hassle. You have to really know your horse for the subtleties to come through. (PS I think a copy of enlighted equitation will be hitting her - any my- xmas stocking this year).

[Roz Morris]

As a great fan of 'alternative' teaching styles and biomechanics, I was very interested by the comments about Mary Wanless. I've also recently discovered Sally Swift, of Centred Riding fame, and wondered if anyone else, particularly Heather, had had any experience with her methods? She is very much into using images ('drop your sacrum through your seat and into the ground') and I find they let me ride in a more refined, gentle way.

By the way, I'm a big fan of MW. The bearing down is strange, and can probably easily be done in the wrong way, but is good for stability, an excellent way of combating nerves. (I'm also a trained singer, so maybe I've picked up on the 'good' way of doing it. But I have to disagree with Heather and say bearing down is definitely down - but, to add a further level of complication, it is also 'out'!) Interestingly using your diaphragm is also one of Sally Swift's four basics of riding.

I used to get annoyed when one 'method rider' seemed to contradict another, but I've now come to the conclusion that they're all expressing the same fundamental idea. It's interesting to try to work out what that is!

PS. Wally, when you mentioned the 'pinch', were you talking about MW's or was it something else? MW's pinch has given me excellent results keeping a variety of horses together and round in trot and canter. But if you weren't talking about MW's, I'm interested.