help -we dont turn!

[showjumperchick]

helooo, iv only just registered but i thought id get right in there and pick your brains bout a little issue one of my horses has bout turning right! he's a 6yr old irish sports horse(id x tb) who iv owned for bout 18 months. he was only just broken when i had him but he learns real quick and now we'r jumping bsja newcomers and are just about to start foxhunters. recently tho he's started to run past fences, not running out / spooking at the fence, just kinda locks his head at an angle and runs off to the left until he hits a fence/person /another jump! he's quite a tough little chap and and quite strong for me ( im 5ft 6 and 7.5-8 stone) so theres no way i can force him to do anything! i used to ride him in a waterford mouth dutch gag but i just changed to a hackmoor and he was loads beta at my show last sun. but then yday night when i was schooling on the flat he just took off at a canter and rammed into the arena fence. he turns left perfect just not right. he's had his back tack and teeth checked and no probs there. any ideas?????? ( you'll have to excuse me if my postings a bit sporradic!im at work an have to sneak on the computer!!!!)

[casey]

If your lad cocks his jaw, ruling out a teeth problem, it is still evesion.
To go from being broken in to foxhunter in 18 months is pushing it for any horse.
Just my opinion, but it sounds as though he's overfaced and your over horsed.:)

[showjumperchick]

it might seem like that, but he's already jumped out of british nov and discovery and he jumped blue chip last year and at the festival this year with no probs so he cant be finding it too hard. i have lessons with di lampard but the prob is he never does it at her yard so she cant really say *** to do, i just wondered if anyone had any ideas/ exercises i cud try with him. he's such a babe in every other way and trys really hard when he's in the ring. a few people have said that because he's irish he's matured a lot later than my dutch horse and thus this cud be the terrible teenage time, and he's just testing me. iv bought all my equines on from just broken but its always good hear other peoples ideas.

[casey]

Hey showjumperchick, I must know of you, as I too go to Di's about once a month. Whats your horses name?

[showjumperchick]

iv got two -emerald super star ( thats the one that doesnt turn) and also royalty k. what bout you? do you do bsja? i go to markfield/ arena uk a lot over the winter so maybe c you there sum time!

[casey]

Spooky eh! Yeah I compete area's 39a and 40. I'll keep my eye out for you when I go to Di's next.

[showjumperchick]

what are your horses called?what classes do you jump with them? i go to di's every 2 or 3 weeks usually mid week as im sooooo busy at weekends!

[casey]

I'll pm you

[Tootsie4U]

Ah hah! Big clue : "...but the prob is he never does it at her yard so she cant really say *** to do"

From my very limited experience with my own horse (he used to turn right fine, but wouldnt go left - and still attempts this yet) is that he's having a game with you.

As long as you've checked his back, teeth, legs, etc. and youre sure its nothing physical I think what he needs is a refresher course in who gives the directions in your relationship.

Does he lean on the bit or try to pull the reins?

[showjumperchick]

i kinda thought he was just messing with me too! he doesnt do it every time he's ridden, and he never does it out hacking, which makes me think he does it to avoid hard work. for example last night when i rode him he was totally fine cantering left and right, but then i started to ask for flying changes which he can do perfectly well in the ring, and he sticks his nose out, tilts his head and charges until my leg is right up against the fence! he always has been quite a strong chap, but this is completely different to that.

[Tootsie4U]

Yep, sounds like temper tantrum protests.

One thing you can do if he is leaning or pulling is to not give him anything to lean or pull on. Take away his fighting tool. If you have constant contact and are pulling, he has something to lean on. Instead, drop the reins a bit and then pick them back up and ask. Continue doing this until he realizes that his efforts to pull against you are pointless because you're smarter and will just drop the contact.

The first time I surprised my boy with this he almost fell on his face. So be careful. But, he was so taken back by it that he wouldnt try the rest of the day as he lost his balance so much the first time. Of course he tried it again the next day, but I just did it again.

[Mehitabel]

to be honest, if the horse has only been being ridden for 18 months and it is already jumping foxhunters and doing flying changes, i'm not remotely surprised he's having tantrums.
you may think he's ok with it if he isn't refusing the jumps, but it is an awful lot for a young brain to take in and if he never has time to think about things and let it 'sink in' then sooner or later the confusion he mut be feeling is going to manifest in a different way.
i used to rehabilitate 'problem' horses and probably the most common cause of their issues was being overfaced. being smart horses they didn't object straight away but it all builds up and explodes later.
my advice would be to let him have a break. a waterford 3 ring (they're snaffles, not gags) is a very hard bit for a baby and would suggest to me that some early steps have been missed out of his training if he is that unresponsive already.

[Hanze]

Hi Showjumper Chick dont listen to people puttin u down sayin that u have rushed your horse into jumping. You must feel really proud to have proggresed him to that level. I got a Irish sports horse abou 6 weeks ago and i am hoping to affiliate her. Good luck ad I hope you solve your problem.

[Tootsie4U]

Well said Es

I have to admit that the first thing that came to my mind when I read your post was that he is being pushed too hard too soon. He may be able to physically perform the task, but that doesnt mean he is fine with it mentally.

My horse is in a full cheek french link (very mild bit) snaffle and he will still resist. It isnt a function of equipment, its more so of his personality. As I said above, just as with my horse, we needed to take a step back and redefine who gives the directions in our relationship. Ultimately, if everything is done correctly training wise, the horse should willingly look for direction as he sees you as the dominant all knowing person. He will place his trust in you and even do things he normally would choose not to do on his own. Thats not a fairy tale - it can happen if done correctly.

[Tootsie4U]

Originally posted by Tootsie4U
He may be able to physically perform the task, but that doesnt mean he is fine with it mentally.




Hanze, thats for you ;)

Horses' arent robots. Sooner or later they let you know that in their own way. I have a scar to prove it ;)

[showjumperchick]

tootsie -that sounds like an idea worth trying, as my poor ol' left leg is fed up of being smashed on the fence! i know its not a physical problem, so im glad sum one else out there has first hand experience of and thus believes in " temper tantrums"!iv just read sum of the old post , are there any othere exercises your doing with bon to help? one of my eventer friends suggested teaching him sum baby pirouettes to get him off his shoulder a bit????????

es -the bit i used to ride him in was a dutch gag with a waterford mouthpiece, not the snaffle version, and i agree its quite a strong bit but in reality there arent many showjumpers that go in a plain snaffle, and it was recomended that i ride him in that by a top sj because thats better than hauling at him in a snaffle.im not trying to be argumentative but all my horses have been doing changes since they were 4/5 and its never caused any probs before. i was in the 5yr old champs @ the festival on my other horse and all the pro horses had such an advantage by beind able to do changes, they dont lose their balance or rhythm round the corners.

[Tootsie4U]

You are right, a bit is only as severe as the hands that use it. Yanking on the snaffle can be worse than only using a severe bit to its full extent if and when necessary.

But, wouldnt it be nice to only need a snaffle ;) (getting back to the idea of "correct training"... )

[galadriel]

If there's something odd going on and there is no obvious cause, then you have to look for an un-obvious cause.

I have to agree with *considering* the idea that he's learned too much too quickly. Intelligent, willing horses can get burned out very easily, because they will physically give you more than they emotionally can handle. They want to please, and they've figured out what physical tricks please you, but they don't really understand what they're doing. Sometimes you have to work on something for much longer than just after your horse has learned how to *do* it, just because he doesn't really *understand* it yet.

If a previously willing horse starts evading, then he's likely either expressing pain or confusion. Since you're sure it's not pain, you might want to at least consider that it might be confusion.

[showjumperchick]

thanks hanze, i know 6 seems young to be jumping foxhunters but the aon qualifiers for hoys are even bigger( that the six year old series) and he didnt jump them!ill prob be shot down in flames for divulging this but my 5yr old is jumping foxes and winning them!i cant wait to jump the aons on her nxt summer! how is your ish bred? mine is by the id stallion cummer hero.

[showjumperchick]

you guys reply so fast i cant keep up!lol! i do agree that it wud b nice to only need a snaffle but in the ring he gets so strong i cant adjust his strides, and that really upsets him. he's so careful he wont jump off a less than perfect stride so i figure its better to be able to put him on that stide in a stronger bit.

[Mehitabel]

http://www.tackandski.co.uk/productimages/607.jpg this bit is a snaffle - not a gag. people call it a gag, but in action it is a snaffle. but i won't derail the thread with the difference.

yes, the horses may do well as 4 and 5 year olds - but how long do they last before they burn out? are they still going at 25? personally, i'd rather take my time and have a horse who is still physically and mentally able to do the job at 20+.
at 5 years old a horse, especially a wamrblood, is still physically very immature - their bones and joints are still growing and too much concussion in the form of jumping and advanced dressage training will damage those joints.

what i meant about the bit was that if the horse is properly trained from the beginning, then you don't need to haul on a snaffle - the horse will be responsive enough to your seat and weight aids that you don't need to haul at all. again - it's down to time taken. if you rush through things to get the horse jumping young, then the baby steps are hurried and that's when you end up substituting strength for skill and understanding.

[Tootsie4U]

in comment to Es post above....


Wouldnt it be great to see this horses' full potential as a both physically and mentally mature horse? If he does so well so young, could you imagine if he's brought on correctly and softly so that his potential is allowed to come through at his rightful mature age!?!? Amazing.

Yes, mind the joints, but I would be the selfish sort and be thinking about that instead ;) hee hee

[showjumperchick]

hmmmm, i seem to have bought uo a point with a real difference of opinion! i guess it depends on the horse, my two dont really respect smaller jumps and it doesnt do their technique any good to keep jumping them. they do seem to be of a similar age for their level as the pro horses i see at shows.....i pick my shows for the ground, and i NEVER thrash them round the jump off!he is a big strong horse for me, sum horses are just tougher to ride than others, and if kyri(my 5yr old has been rushed) it doesnt show-she works in a soft outline( in a happy mouth) can do changes and a reasonably competant array of lateral work!she is truly an angel to ride. anyway, we seem to have lost the original thread a bit, supposing he isnt feeling rushed and isnt in pain, are there any exercises i can do to help the right turning??????

[Tootsie4U]

Again, you are right. The only way to be certain about the rushing thing is to ask your horse. Just be sure you are listening ;)

Some exercises to encourage him to turn (yes, encourage because you can't make him!):

a) Carrot stretches.
b) Stand by his side on the ground and apply contact on one rein asking him to turn his head. Dont pull as it ends up that YOU turn his head. In this exercise, you want HIM to turn his own head when you apply contact.
c) Since rein aids are supposed to be the last aid used in effective riding, reinforce some leg aids by asking him to move over while you stand beside him. Draw a circle in his fur and push right in the center of it - increase pressure the more he resists. When he moves, rub. Ultimately, you should be able to move specific body parts by doing this (shoulder, hip, butt, chest, etc.) This is actually Pareilli's 1st game, the Porcupine Game.

That should keep you busy for awhile ;)

[showjumperchick]

thanks tootsie, i dont know too much bout groundwork, but ill def give that a try. mine are all experts at carrot stretches, but i think that because of the carrot involvement!lol, greedy pigs!

[Harry Hobbes]

ShowJumperChick,
It sounds like your big Irish Boy "can" perform (physically able, healthy, trained), but he just "won't" (chooses not to), at his discretion.

You are quite correct when you say that "...theres no way i can force him to do anything..." (I assume you mean "get a correct response".) Horses are capable of enduring all manner of force and pain rather than submit to force. This is why, ultimately, changing the type of bit to achieve behavioral changes through the application of more "force" results in such mixed results. It depends completely on how much force the horse decides to endure; and the results may be accompanied with an entire set of "negative consequences".

Perhaps the solution to his undesireable behavior problem (i.e., "he won't") is to re-train his behavior with the intent to achieve a "willingness" in the horse's response to your cues (application of aids). In other words, specifically train him to be generally willing first, and then ask for the jump; rather than train him to take a specific jump (or other action), with the expectation that "willingness" will be there.

Such training would require that whether mounted or un-mounted, you undertake the specific objective of pursuing his "willing response/giving" to every cue/asking you undertake - before asking for a jump (or other action). If he is not willing when you ask for very simple, little actions, then it is not reasonable to expect that he will be willing otherwise, and you should immediately (and always) require soft and "giving" willingness in the little actions, before progressing to more advanced actions (such as taking a jump).

Please do not misunderstand me, willingness can be achieved without first specifically targetting a soft willing response, as has occured the world over, historically and currently. However, it is so much easier (on both of you) to get good responses throughout the horse's life, if we first hone the horse's skill at responding and giving softly.

There are many professional trainers who market self-study publications and video recordings (some world-wide) which demonstrate the "how to" methods of achieving soft willingness. I'm sure that you can obtain such aids locally; and perhaps you can obtained the assistance of a professional trainer locally who is schooled in the same methods.

Best regards, and I hope this opinion helps you.