Bonfire under saddle : Let me know what you think [Archive]

anuvb

22nd Oct 2003, 01:23 PM

Actually Es, that's funny 'cos I was about to say pretty much the same thing!

He's looking pretty relaxed for a youngster I thought and he also looks like he is beginning to understand what is asked of him. One thing I did notice in nearly all the photos though, and which kind of goes back a little to your thread on does a young horse know when it is being ridden by a novice - The rider isn't sitting level.

I don't know whether you know this or not, but the reason the classical seat works so well, is that it does little to interfere with the natural biomechanical movement of the horse, so basically the rider is sat in the right spot for the horse to maintain it's centre of gravity - therefore being more balanced and able to move correctly. The only analogy I can think of off the top of my head, is the difference between and male ballet dancer holding a female ballet dancer in the air whilst a standing on on leg, compared to when he holds someone like me with two left feet and about as much co-ordination on the dance floor as Elmer Fudd. The first situation the female ballet dancer knows what she is doing, is poised in such a manner that the male dancer can hold that movement for a minute may be more, me on the otherhand has no feeling of anything less other than gravity is working on me and that fact that I'm probably feeling a little sick being stuck up in the air, and as a result I'm likely to unbalance the male dancer and end up in a heap on the floor.

So to answer your other thread at the same time( because I'm too lazy to go back and post on it! :D ) - yes, a horse does know when a novice is riding him if that novice is unbalanced and yes they're not going to work as well, as someone with balance. BUT not all novices are unbalanced and not all experienced riders are balanced. I would say though that a lot of work with an unbalanced rider though (novice or not), does mean that a horse will build up muscle unevenly, and will therefore find it much harder to work properly, so if it you riding in these photos then you may want to try and work on what Es suggested not leaning back or collapsing to one side, or preferring your weight down one side over another, unless it's to achieve a particular movement.

Anyway, I've gone off on a bit of a tangent. As for comments, I think he looks like he is progressing well, but think about where your balance and centre of gravity is in relation to Bonfire's - once you get this sussed then you'll find things like your turns etc much much easier because the rider won't blocking Bon's movement, and you'll know that any play up is due purely to him.

anuvb

22nd Oct 2003, 01:29 PM

The lunge thing - is probably due to stiffness and muscle build up on one side and it's probably going to be helped more at this stage by building up the muscle and loosening him up by riding him. By all means start by warmign him on the lunge, but may be now is the time to start thinking about a couple of steps of leg yield on both reins and working on his ridden suppleness by going back to your schooling figures. On the basis he looks a little bit tense in his neck, try starting them on a reasonably relaxed rein, but where you can still feel the contact with his mouth ask him to keep walking and trotting on freely and loosely so that he works both sides of him equally. If he offers to take more of the rein then give it to him at this stage, playing with the rein gently and asking for more contact as he moves forwards into it.

Mehitabel

22nd Oct 2003, 01:30 PM

if he were my baby i would be completely happy about how he is looking and going.
and i would echo what anuvb said about the rider. i recently had a lesson - my first proper lesson since i did my exams 9 years ago. turns out my position faults (similar to your rider - i slouch and get behind the movement as well as having a crooked twisty hip) had really affected petal and she has built up uneven muscle and is compensating for me to a high degree. (bless her!) when instructor had finished pulling me apart and putting me back together properly, petal breathed a huge sigh of relief and went 100% better - and there wasn't much wrong with her to begin with. luckily they stem from a reasonably recent injury flareup, mostly, so not too ingrained.

anuvb

22nd Oct 2003, 01:39 PM

Originally posted by Es
....a crooked twisty hip.....

That's my problem too :D

Tootsie4U

22nd Oct 2003, 01:40 PM

A good way with words anuvb...

So a classical seat is something you can SEE from pictures, eh?

*goes digging in her photo archives to find some of Tootsie*

anuvb

22nd Oct 2003, 01:50 PM

It's the traditional, head, shoulder, hip, heel line. Am I right in thinking you've ordered Heather's book? If so, then her explanations are pretty good, and she'll also give you some schooling tips. But essentially, the classical seat just looks like there is no tension in the rider. The legs should look relaxed and wrapped round the horseand the seat and hands look relaxed. Mainly though, the rider doesn't look as if they are either in front of or behind the movment of the horse. So in pic 9, your friend is very definitely behind the movement of Bon - he almost looks like he is about to run off from underneath her. Likewise some one who is in front of the movement looks like if the horse is about to stop they would keep going over the top of the horses head.

If a rider is lopsided, then if you draw a line from their should to their hips either side, and a line through the middle of their body from their head to the pommel of the saddle, the three lines wouldn't be parallel.

Any help?

Edit - actually the lopsided explanation is probably not the easiest to see on your photo's. But the photo of Bon's head turning (11?) the rider is definitely not sat evenly on the saddle. Her legs are lopsided. I am not trying to criticise her - just trying to point out how you can see it. The other thing is, is when someone collapses on one side there is an almost imperceptible creasing of the clothing - particularly in baggy clothes, which indicates that they are bending to one side. It's much easier to see in tighter clothing and as you get more of an outline of the hip and shoulder. You can see this on pics 5 and 6 - the first two of her in the saddle.

Tootsie4U

22nd Oct 2003, 01:54 PM

Oh sure, I understand the concepts, but do I put them into practice? ;) Thats the key....

I found some pics of me riding several horses - would you all be willing to critisize to help me ride Bon better?

galadriel

22nd Oct 2003, 01:58 PM

He's got a star again!

Just so I can check...what makes you say that the one is better balanced? If he's more willing to track left, and flexes better, that sounds like better balance. Tracking right, when he's leaning rather than flexing, and being less willing to go that way, sounds like unbalanced to me.

He does look willing. Perhaps a little less than soft, but I think that will come in time as he gets more used to things. I certainly wouldn't expect him to be really working on the bit yet; he looks like he's well advanced even for his age and training. Just coming down some, accepting the bit, is a wonderful achievement. 9th pic--it may not be "great" form, but it's very nice for a baby.

The pic quality isn't the best on some of these...couldn't really see anything in the "bending at the trot" pic, and some others. But you can tell that bon thinks a lot of himself ;) and that he has every reason to! What a stunner.

Tootsie4U

22nd Oct 2003, 01:58 PM

Alright, Im not gonna wait - no holds bar - tell me exactly whats wrong please!

Some of these first ones was of Bon's first time ever under saddle so there arent' the best to use but I dont have too many to choose from. The hand position is horrible but thats my rut - I am anticipating him tanking off! :p

anuvb

22nd Oct 2003, 01:58 PM

You're brave! ;)

Of course we can, but bear in mind we've all got our own faults andmay be asking you to return the favour one day! :)

Tootsie4U

22nd Oct 2003, 02:01 PM

I'm ready! Whatever it takes to get us through this, Im willing!

next pic:

Tootsie4U

22nd Oct 2003, 02:02 PM

I'll get to your points in a sec. Gal :p I gotta put these pics up first :D

Tootsie4U

22nd Oct 2003, 02:03 PM

This horse has GIGANTIC movement (despite the pic's proof) and I was always behind it, but tell me what you think anyway...

Mehitabel

22nd Oct 2003, 02:10 PM

ok, in that first picture (which i will stress now - it's a moment in time, so it may well not be all that representative of your riding!) you haven't got the ear-shoulder-hip-heel line. you've got ear-shoulder-heel, but the bottom is stuck out behind you and your arms are straight out in front. this means that youer back will be hollowing a bit and it'll be hard to move the pelvis properly with the horse's movement. i'd like to see a longer leg, and the hips coming forward into line with the rest.
but plenty to like - you're going with him with our hands, looking up and ahead and your leg position looks good and stable.

look at this one of me - http://www.historicalfact.com/~es/pony%20pictures/malvern-canter-proof.jpg
and you can see that although we're going downhill, i have the ear - shoulder- elbow-hip-heel line. on the other hand, i'm tipping to the right and my hands are unlevel - the right one is further back to my belly and my wrists are rounded.
this one - http://www.historicalfact.com/~es/pony%20pictures/nfshow03front.jpg shows very clearly my horrible tipping to the right habit - look how unlevel my shoulders are.
and look at me leaning back like the rider in your picture!
http://groups.msn.com/nrphotos/esspictures.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=175

have a look through my nr album and see what you can see about my position - it's good practice to identify other people's position faults.

Tootsie4U

22nd Oct 2003, 02:11 PM

His star is back again, isnt it funny!

As far as what you say about lunging Gal; yes! But, it boggles my mind. Tracking left (first pic) he pulls ALOT and is less likely to come onto the bit. It takes constant asking and he will not stay there or offer it by himself. But, he is more responsive (voice commands) and "forward". Tracking right, the lunge line is slack and he will offer contact on the bit. But, he is less responsive and very stiff (as you can see from the photos). Very strange and almost contradictory....

anuvb

22nd Oct 2003, 02:12 PM

I really think you do yourself a disservice and ought to have more confidence in your ability Tootsie.

Your position is actually not bad - in fact I think you look better in these photos than your friend does in your recent photos. I think may be you feel she gets better results because she has more bottle than you to cope with with Bonfire's responses, and perhaps has sligthly more experience in knowing in what to ask him to do, but I think position wise you're pretty good.

What I would say though, is that in the first photos your position is a bit tentative - based purely on these photos. You're leaning slightly to far forward, but I suspect that's partly due to the tension in your hands. If you manage to relax at the elbows, and lean back slightly so that you pivot the weight more onto the back of your seat bones, without going too far, your upper body position would be great. Also try working without stirrups more, working towards opening up your hip and bringing you lower leg back a bit more. but keeping that hip in place.

One the last photos it's the opposite, you look much more relaxed. Yes, you are right, you are leaning slightly further back than perhaps desirable, but you look much more balanced and the arms are softer.

Edit - I hasten to add though - my position is terrible at times - just in case I sounded holier than though! ;)

cvb

22nd Oct 2003, 02:16 PM

hi tootsie

those piccies at the beginning - could be the angle but is the saddle a touch too far forward ? It might explain some of the resistance. (one of the outdoor ones looks better).

Like I said - could just be the camera angle. But if it is a fraction forward, it would restrict him a little eg in his shoulder. It also makes it a bit more difficult for the rider to sit as they should. It might explain why you've had the saddle checked but still seem to get reactions some times. If its a little forward it might pinch every now and then.

Anyway - he looks fantastic. I can imagine he's not easy to sit when he gets fired up :D

Tootsie4U

22nd Oct 2003, 02:23 PM

Hmm. In his conformation shot, his saddle looks horrible! You are right. She tacked him up last night and what a bad mom I am to not check for that :( In some it does look like the flap is too close to the shoulder, doesnt it? He has this evening off, but when I go out on Thursday, I will surely check to make sure he isnt sore. Thanks cvb. (I think she had it too far forward. When I saddle him, I periodically check for its balance with a pen and stuff like that and it was checked formally in early August.) I think thats her fault.

Tootsie4U

22nd Oct 2003, 02:26 PM

You all are right on the button so far. You are in tune with my dressage instructor who says "open your hip, put your leg back, and loosen your elbows!"

So what about shorter/longer stirrups?

;)

Mehitabel

22nd Oct 2003, 02:31 PM

ok, other pics.
2nd one - you look better than the first - more confident and your body is more in line. you can see your hips are mor eover your heels, although your arms are still straighter than ideal. again, you're looking up and ahead and going with him well.
3rd pic - you're tipping to the left slightly. look carefully and you can see your hat and head are tipping to the left, and that shoulder looks higher. could just be the angle of the pic, but it looks a bit 'scrunched up' to the left - ear down and shoulder up. the rest of the alignment looks better again though - shoulders open and not slouching, secure lower leg.
4th pic - yes, you're leaning back a bit and this is putting you behind the movement, but the hands are giving and the arms look relaxed - less tense than the first pic. as i said before - a poke between the shoulderblades would sort it out.

and i would agree with anuvb again - nothing to be ashamed of at all in that position - a good deal better than a lot of people with much more experience!

Tootsie4U

22nd Oct 2003, 02:55 PM

Ah Es, thanks. How can I get you over here to help me ..... :D While we're at it, why dont you bring cvb, gal, anuvb, monty, wally, HEATHER and her simulator..... I already have lisae and citygirl nearby.... hee heee - just some wishful thinking!

CityGirl

22nd Oct 2003, 03:11 PM

Can I join in & request all of the above to come visit us??:) Perhaps we can arrange to have a week's training session somehwere upstate NY?:)

Toots - the experts have weighed in & I have nothing else to offer you except to say that I think you have a lot of things right in your position. Yes, slightly defensive but that's understandable:D In point of fact, I think you look better on Bon that your more-experienced friend!:D

Showjumper

22nd Oct 2003, 08:25 PM

He's looking really good - must agree, picture 8 is fantastic! :D Keep up the good work! :D

galadriel

23rd Oct 2003, 12:47 AM

Originally posted by CityGirl
Perhaps we can arrange to have a week's training session somehwere upstate NY?:)

Is someone paying plane fares? :D

KarinUS

23rd Oct 2003, 01:29 AM

Wow. Those are great Halloween pictures with the orange background and the flaming eyes! Somebody headless should be riding him ;)

Well, sorry no helpful advise here... :D but glad to hear you are making progress.

Dizzy

24th Oct 2003, 02:31 AM

Hi Tootsie,

As Es has pointed out, we all have our faults. Fortunately for me, mine are on video, and at the mo I don't have the gear to post them;)

I have to say Bon is gorgeous, and though I agree with Es, about being happy with his progress, just judging from the photo's I do think he could be offered alot more help by his rider.

I'm not sure who has already commented about the classical seat, but I do agree with them. To bring youngsters on, the rider needs to be balanced, and though ear, shoulder, hip and heel alignment is a good indicator, the most important factor is our seat bones, for true balance must they point at the floor. This is one of my faults, I naturally have a slight hollow in my back, and to put my seatbones in the correct position I must use my lower tummy muscles.

With the photos of Bon, the first thing that hit me is that his riders legs did not have constant lower leg contact, her feet (just judging by the photos) were turned outwards, which puts the back of the calf in slight contact. Our legs should hang like a wet blanket, with our toes forward. In this position our muscles are relaxed and are in a position to give our aids. With our toes out, we have the wrong part of our leg in contact, and our muscles are already tense, so the horse has to be a mind reader, unless we kick.

The photo bend at walk - the riders hands weren't even, the outside hand/shoulder and foot were weighted - the inside hand and foot raised. For Bonfire this would be absolute confusion - he just wouldn't have a clue.

This brings me to the 100 push ups. Just going from the photos, his rider wasn't sitting level, had poor leg contact, and was giving confusing weight and rien aids. During his punishment, she strongly weighted her outside leg and severely bent him to the inside, with her outside hand crossing his wither. This would have caused intense discomfort in mouth due to bit pressure.

Though I'm all for being firm, when they've been blatantly naughty, I do think they have to associate the punishment with the crime. With youngsters its extremely difficult to distinquish between confusion and spitting the dummy. But we as thier trainers must be sure before we contemplate punishment, that we've asked correctly, clearly and patiently - and that they understand fully, before we punish.

I don't punish, I normally change the subect and do something they're good at, then try again a few days later.

I'm by no means trying to cast a shadow on the progress you've made with Bonfire, but I would bear in mind that though he can be difficult - he's very young. He looks to be a gorgeuos soul, judging by the photos he's not being given the best instruction, but believe me he's not being given the worst either. Cut him abit of slack, he looks as though he's a willing soul - instead of the 100 press ups, look at how he's been asked.

Remember you know exactly what want of him - he's a horse, he hasn't a clue - he needs it spelling out to him, with lots of praise after every letter. Forward, contact, balance and outline mean absolutely nothing to him. Your bond and friendship mean everything. If your best friend was chinese and couldn't understand you, would you make her do 100 press ups because she didn't do what you wanted - or would you learn how to talk chinese??

anuvb

24th Oct 2003, 08:34 AM

Quote: "During his punishment, she strongly weighted her outside leg and severely bent him to the inside, with her outside hand crossing his wither. This would have caused intense discomfort in mouth due to bit pressure. "

I would agree with Dizzy on this - I think we've discussed Bon's turning in the past and I've tried to explain what Dizzy has said here.

I'll try and elaborate a bit on what I think Dizzy is saying to try and give you a bit more undertsanding about why this is incorrect because I know Bon's turning issue has been one of the biggest you've had with him. Dizzy, feel free to correct me on anything if I've got the wrong end of the stick.....

When you are teaching a horse to bend to the inside you have to allow give with the outside rein to allow that turn.

Now look at the photo- effectively, what your friend is doing here, is asking for bend one way, but restricting Bon's turning by hanging on strongly to the outside rein - giving him confusing signals. He's stood there thinking "hang on, one minute she is asking me to turn to the inside, and the next she is saying no and asking me with the outside hand to be looking straight ahead" leading to the increased and uncomfortable bit pressure that Dizzy describes, and unfortunately, potentially to the kind of battles you and Bon have been having with turning in the past. Couple this with the fact that in the photo your friend is actually unbalanced on Bon's back that she is in fact asking for him to turn to the outside with her seat and legs - you end up with extremely conflicting signals and one confused horse. Again I'm not criticising your friend as such, just using her as an example because it is much easier to illustrate the point with a picture.

At first this seems pretty contradictory, as we're all taught that the weight of the contact should be in the outside hand and the easiest way to ensure this as a rider is to keep the outside rein tight, but that's not what keeping the weight in the outside rein really means. Weight in the outside rein, comes with schooling the horse and doesn't mean any extra contact in the outside rein, but just that - a bit of weight. It's why people like Heather, Perry Wood and Micahel Peace etc, spend hours trying to define contact - because what we are taught to do and what we really want to achieve are often not one in the same thing.

At this stage, Bon is nowhere near achieving a good contact in the outside rein he's too young and too under muscled and still needs to learn the basics. All you are trying to teach him is to turn. You can work on the weight being in the outside hand once he's mastered the basics and have built up more muscle by asking for leg yield on a straight line and spiralling up and down in leg yield on a circle.

I think your 100 push-ups is great, but I agree again with Dizzy, that I think it's only great if you apply it under the right circumstances, and when you do apply it, you know that what you are asking is correct. I think in the last couple of weeks, by pushing Bon you have actually come a long way, but now, because he is learning that he can only push you so far before you expect more of him, it is the time to be really considering how a rider can block his movement. If nothing else your unsuspecting volunteer has enabled us to highlight some of the points we've all tried to explain without Pics in the past.

It's very easy with a youngster to assume that they just haven't understood what you are asking, or that they are playing up, but more often that not it is actually the rider who is by their body position, level of imbalance etc, actually giving the youngster confusing signals by moving their centre of gravity, or working against the biomechanical principles of movement - don't forget youngsters don't have the muscles to compensate for shifts in their rider's centre of gravity, thus any shift on the part of the rider make the horse even more unbalanced.

I liked the idea of Harry Hobbes - about going back and working on "your" riding. I did this and in the first stages the horse goes a bit worse than it did at first, but I found that this is because as a rider I had to re-learn lots of things and bad habits I had picked up, adapt muscles, loosen up my hips, re-gain my center of gravity etc. It wasn't long before the change in me started to reflect in a change in the horses I was riding and suddenly everything my instructor had been telling me clicked into place (I still have moments though!) because I could really see the effect it was having on my horse.

Right, that's one essay out of the way this morning - best start some work! ;)

Mehitabel

24th Oct 2003, 10:07 AM

I liked the idea of Harry Hobbes - about going back and working on "your" riding. I did this and in the first stages the horse goes a bit worse than it did at first, but I found that this is because as a rider I had to re-learn lots of things and bad habits I had picked up, adapt muscles, loosen up my hips, re-gain my center of gravity etc. It wasn't long before the change in me started to reflect in a change in the horses I was riding and suddenly everything my instructor had been telling me clicked into place (I still have moments though!) because I could really see the effect it was having on my horse.

this is exactly what i did in my lesson - we ignored petal completely and worked on me. by the end of the 3/4 hour lesson she was going beter than normal with me doing much less - the instructor (~RR on S-U) was focusing on putting my head in the right place, making me aware of the twisty hips, etc etc and once i stopped hindering her she was powering along like a dressage horse.
moral - don't let it get to 9 years without regular lessons! :o

cvb

24th Oct 2003, 10:16 AM

hmmm - disagree a little with some of what has been said about the flexion. Agree with the comment about more release in the outside rein.

I think we shoudl bear in mind this is a snapshot so we're having to guess a little bit what is intending and what happened just before and just after.

Yes the rider could be a bit straighter, but if she added a bit of right leg, she's in an exagerated position to ask for the bum to turn (think western a little here rather than 'tradition turn on forehand'). (*)

I think she is intending to use indirect (right) rein to get the neck flexion. Sitting a little straighter, with weight more central, would give a clearer cue to Bon that he's supposed to flex but not turn. A bit more release on the left rein would again make it clearer to Bob plus making it easier to give the reward/release when he does the right thing.

(* sitting on my office chair, I move to look to my right and behind. To do that I have to move my rib cage and my weight to the left. Thats effectively what the rider in the picture is doing - and may also be what she is aiming to encourage Bob to do. If she wants him to keep his rib cage straight and just flex through the neck - then she also needs to stay straighter. Asking him to flex through his whole body, rather than just in front of the withers, can be a useful exercise).

anuvb

24th Oct 2003, 10:52 AM

Originally posted by cvb

(* sitting on my office chair, I move to look to my right and behind. To do that I have to move my rib cage and my weight to the left. .....

If only you could see me now trying to suss out what you're saying :). Thankfully I'm in the office on my own right now, otherwise I'd be getting strange looks from my colleagues.

I think I can see what you mean, and I agree to some extent, and I'm not sure whether where I don't agree isn't just that I haven't understood you cvb, but this could also be my lack of understanding of western styles of riding.

Right, I think too that's she's asked for indirect inside rein and I can also appeciate what you are saying about the flexion and not wanting the bum to move out, just asking Bon to flex in front of the withers. But thinking back to what I have been taught, and what I think Heather says, that to flex a horse you've still got to have the weight in the inside of the turn to build up the correct muscle. So when I flex a horse to the right I still have the weight to the right and on my inside hip, even though I may be looking to the right. To stop the bum moving out, I'd be supporting with the outside leg but essentially, because my weight is on my inside hip and I'm using my outside leg and my lower body is positioning the horse straight, but my hands and inside leg are asking for a little flexion. If when I've tried this and I've done it all correctly, it should still look I'm sat straight on the horse from the waist down an dany twist to ask for the flexion comes from my shoulders whilst supporting with my lower body, but the horse should be flexing comfortably to the inside.

I'm only really trying to clarify what you've said, because it effects my riding at the moment and I'm interested in other people's opinions. And I think what I am trying to understand is this....

"Yes the rider could be a bit straighter, but if she added a bit of right leg, she's in an exagerated position to ask for the bum to turn (think western a little here rather than 'tradition turn on forehand'). "

Sorry, Tootsie we've gone off on a bit of a tangent, but this whole weight issue is so important to riding, so I find this really interesting!

Tootsie4U

24th Oct 2003, 12:48 PM

Holy smokes! Wowzers! I thought this thread was dead...

Lets see if I can make things clearer about the photo of "100 push ups" *thinking*

Bon can be a tank. To my dismay, and despite Parelli (although Parelli is helping) he is still a bit too numb to pressure in asking him to move away from it. In saying that, rider was working that night on getting him to bend away from her leg and is why in the photos of bending at trot and walk, her legs are very uneven and her toes pointed out, like anuvb says (BTW - this raises a ? for me... that later....). She was actually "over doing it" because he is learning and not keen to learning that specific request. Now, there they are coming up the long side. She is adding inside leg to keep him at the wall while supporting him with outside rein. Bon stiffs his neck, she supports more with outside rein and gives him some thuds on the inside belly to push him over. He bulges out against her leg and they go a few strides with his neck at a 45 degree angle to the outside of their path and traveled skipping towards the center of the ring.

So, she felt that he purposely bulged against her leg and purposely resisted the support on the outside rein. Did she confuse him and make him react that way? I dont know enough to determine that.

So, in punishment, she asked him to "give to the bit" by pulling on what was the outside rein. Yes, as Ditz says, Im sure it caused pain because she was pulling as hard as she could and so was Bon. She won, and when Bon "gave" - as what the picture shows - she released the contact as a way of saying "give, yes, thats what I wanted."

Im not justifying anything - just explaining so that you all can tell me if this was the right thing to do or not. Bon has made a huge improvement in his "attitude" and to be honest, I have her to thank for sorting that out. However, I have noticed that when I am riding him, he seems to be much more willing and much more calm despite my less than perfect seat. (Im still tight in my seat from all those bad experiences at my other barn, but am working on it and reading some lit you all are suggesting :))

cvb

24th Oct 2003, 01:28 PM

anuvb - yes there is a difference in use of weight, which I think relates back to the different way of going ie that the end result is slightly different. Cos after all you are using the same ingredients (person, horse) in each case !

If you look at any of the parelli pictures explaining how to turn, they are much closer to western style (IMHO) than traditional english.

I suspect there may also be a difference between "traditional" english teaching and classical/EE type teaching. (The latter two are closer to a portuguese/spanish style - which is what western was originally based on !).

I'm trying to think through the difference here - so apologies if it takes me a few goes to make sense...

I think one of the things to remember here is that Bon is not being asked to turn right. The position he ends up in is not what you would ask if, for example, you were riding round a circle ! The rider is asking for a very specific yield - and gets it, then rewards.

I think (bearing in mind I tend to use what works and not think where I learn it) that there is a general principle in "english" to use the weight in the direction of movement, and the horse moves into and under the rider's weight. (eg your example of turning, the weight is to the inside). In western it tends to be a little more about freeing the horse up to move in the right direction, ie they move away from the weight (so the weight is outside). I find the western way easier to explain as you can often "model it" with the person on foot. eg to step to the right I have to move my weight on to my left foot to free my right foot up to lift it.

I think in the picture of Bon, that by sitting to the outside, she lightens her seat to the inside, allowing the horse to flex. but bear in mind that this is a 'remedial' action correcting a problem in the horse, so may not be what you would do under 'normal' circumstances.

In reality you are normally dealing with a dynamic situation, so you are actually changing weight with each stride (even more complex to explain/teach ! - but most people end up doing it by instinct without having to explain at this micro level) eg with my stepping sideways example - as a person - once I have moved one step to the right, I then put my weight onto my right leg, to free my left leg to step over as well. But generally we teach an overall direction for weight (inside/outside) and that works :D

Tootsie4U

24th Oct 2003, 01:42 PM

Ok, for this question, forget about bending per say. We're walking on a very straight line. I want Bon to turn left slightly. I add right leg to push him over, right? So, in that, cvb, your analogy about to walk forward with your right leg, you temporarily put all your weight on your left leg falls right in line.

But, if I want Bon to bend through his circle, I support outside rein, ask with inside rein and push with inside leg and am careful to catch him bum with my outside leg. My weight (if Im following Heather's articles) would be adjusted when I "tilt" my inner hip/seat bone forward which automatically puts my outside leg in a farther back position.

For some reason this has just become super confusing!

So in each instance, Im asking Bon to turn left. But in doing so, they are very very different ways of asking. Whats up with that and how will he ever learn if thats the case?!?!?!

anuvb

24th Oct 2003, 02:00 PM

Thanks cvb (and Tootsie you're obviously just every popular which is why this thread is still going!). :D

I think I see what you mean in terms of the turn. I've been taught that for flexion you still put your weight onto the inside hip (though thinking about it to a lesser extent that you would when asking for the turn) which is slightly forward - even if you're not asking the horse to move off, but that by putting your weight to the inside you free up the muscle on the outside of the horse, thereby letting the horse stretch round the flexion. Heather's explanation of the use of the inside hip is much better than mine - but then that's why she writes books and makes a living out of it - and why I go to an instructor to help me out with these things! ;)

anuvb

24th Oct 2003, 02:01 PM

:o I'm confused too!

EDIT - But if I was the one riding, then I would do your second suggestion. You'd only need to put your outside leg on to do the turn as in your first suggestion if Bon was moving his bum out (rather like a turn on the forehand) as you asked for the turn with your inside leg and hands, rather than bending through his middle round the turn - which is why we're taught to support with the outside leg through the turn, but support and actively asking with the leg are two different things! :o

Tootsie4U

24th Oct 2003, 02:04 PM

SOMEONE HELP!

:D

Harry Hobbes

24th Oct 2003, 02:04 PM

Anuvb said:
I think your 100 push-ups is great, but I agree again with Dizzy, that I think it's only great if you apply it under the right circumstances, and when you do apply it, you know that what you are asking is correct.

Quite true.

The "effective" Drill Instructor always has a comprehensive set of "training activities/drills" in her "toolkit". Always requiring 100 pushups gets boring (amoung other things), so the Drill Instructor will judiciously mix up the training drills. Perhaps "Left Face", "Right Face", "About Face" are approriate (while the recruit's bicepts recover).

Mehitabel

24th Oct 2003, 02:11 PM

ok, i shall wade in and confuse the issue further! ;)

We're walking on a very straight line. I want Bon to turn left slightly. I add right leg to push him over, right?

yes. your right leg activates his right hind leg, so you use it a bit further back to ask him to move that leg over to the left - this is the beginning of a leg yield. (hey, you were doing dressage without even knowing it!) but what does your weight do? when you move the right leg back, what happens to your hips and pelvis?

if I want Bon to bend through his circle, I support outside rein, ask with inside rein and push with inside leg and am careful to catch him bum with my outside leg. My weight (if Im following Heather's articles) would be adjusted when I "tilt" my inner hip/seat bone forward which automatically puts my outside leg in a farther back position.

also yes. but again - when you tilt your pelvis and advance the inside hip, what happens to your right leg?

your pelvis in the two examples is doing the same thing - you're just accompanying it with different leg and hand aids to ask for either a diagonal movement or a bend throughout the spine.

if you want him to move over, you keep his body as straight as possible, just moving his legs. if you want a proper bend on a circle, you ask him to move his whole body.

confused nicely now?

Tootsie4U

24th Oct 2003, 02:17 PM

Actually, no. That helped a bit. Good ol' Es...

As Bon would understand it, my weight is the same. My outside leg is the same. The only other "new" thing is that my inside leg is asking him to bend. But, how does he stay UNCONFUSED about me pushing over with one leg and pushing the opposite with the other. I guess weight plays the biggest key in the aid for a turn, eh?????????

Anyone else's head hurt from all that? ;)

AND WHO SAYS RIDING IS SIMPLE!?!?!!?

anuvb

24th Oct 2003, 02:17 PM

No, not confused a bit now! Es, you are a goddess of enlightenment! A much better and concise explanation of what I tried to say in my last post, but I forgot about the hips. Must get back to work and cocentrate on one thing at a time otherwise I'll make no sense in either.....

Mehitabel

24th Oct 2003, 02:29 PM

Originally posted by anuvb
No, not confused a bit now! Es, you are a goddess of enlightenment!

:D what a lovely image! ;)

But, how does he stay UNCONFUSED about me pushing over with one leg and pushing the opposite with the other.

well, you aren't really. for a circle type turn, your inside leg creates and maintains forward movement. this is harder to do when horse is bent, which is why you might have to use it harder. also, you're creating a 'stable point' or a pillar, if you like, with the inside leg for the horse to bend round. this isn't happening when you ask for a move over. you're also moving the head when you ask for a circle bend - and you aren't when you ask for a move over.

the key difference, as anuvb said, is that with a move over you are actively pushing with the right leg - moving that hind leg. with a circle, you are just stopping the bum from swinging out and supporting with that leg - if you ask for a circle and then you actively push with the outside leg then he would spiral in round the circle and make it smaller.
then to spiral out again, you adjust your weight to the outside of the circle and use the inside leg to push the inside hindleg over to the outside. but that is complicating the issue unnecessarily...

Harry Hobbes

24th Oct 2003, 02:30 PM

AND WHO SAYS RIDING IS SIMPLE!?!?!!?

"Linda Elgin" says that "...if we keep at it, in another forty years or so, we'll be decent riders."

anuvb

24th Oct 2003, 02:51 PM

Harry - you ought to have that as a signature at the bottom of your posts. It'll keep reminding me of how far I still have left to go ;)

cvb

24th Oct 2003, 02:59 PM

thanks Es ! The trouble is that us over-analysts tend to focus on one aspect at a time, when actually you are working with a complete horse which has all sorts of bits *** move !

So you are not just applying one aid with one bit of you to achieve an effect. Sort of like playing the drums - that different bits are asking different things, but the overall aim is harmony :D

I just wanted to defend Tootsie's friend a little bit, cos I think we have to remember we're not there !

One more difference english to western. In english you tend to be 'managing' every stride, riding in collection and on the bit. In western you are much more saying - go in that way til I tell you something different. Which does make a difference in that as you ride through a turn, in english you ride the whole turn, in western you are more likely to do something if you need to make a correction - but only then.

ho hum - time to run for a train !

Mehitabel

24th Oct 2003, 03:11 PM

Originally posted by cvb

I just wanted to defend Tootsie's friend a little bit, cos I think we have to remember we're not there !

quite agree with what you're saying here - a photo is only a moment in time and i have seen pics of me that aren't even slightly representative of how i ride. i also think her seat is very typical of someone who has ridden an awful lot but doesn't have lessons often - it's very like mine!

One more difference english to western. In english you tend to be 'managing' every stride, riding in collection and on the bit. In western you are much more saying - go in that way til I tell you something different. Which does make a difference in that as you ride through a turn, in english you ride the whole turn, in western you are more likely to do something if you need to make a correction - but only then.

that's interesting - i've never done western riding. also similar to the difference between schooling for dressage and schooling for showing - a show pony needs to be a very easy ride (much like a western) so we ride much more to that way than riding every stride. if a judge gets on and has to ride every stride we will come last! equally if the horse looks like we are having to make a big effort. so in practice, my aids to petal to turn are look where i'm going and squeeze the inside bum cheek - she has to take care of everything else herself. she also knows that when i ask for trot, she then stays in trot until i ask for something else. but i wouldn't expect bon to be able to do this - at his baby stage i would ride every stride until i was sure he knew what i meant, and only then start using shortcuts.

anuvb

24th Oct 2003, 03:19 PM

Cvb, I totally agree with you about sticking up for Tootsie's friend. She's been a bit of an guinea pig, and we've all used her to highlight problems with teaching a horse something.

I've learnt more about western today than I thought I ever would!

Tootsie4U

24th Oct 2003, 03:20 PM

Originally posted by Es
i wouldn't expect bon to be able to do this - at his baby stage i would ride every stride until i was sure he knew what i meant, and only then start using shortcuts.

And, he agrees! He very obviously looks for direction every second you are on him. He isnt sure of this whole thing (which is a good thing I think) but he does get it in his head that sometimes he just has had enough. So in that, I agree too. Bon is telling me he needs to be ridden every stride. You know that jello/flimsy legs and arms feeling after a hard ride - yep, thats it.

galadriel

24th Oct 2003, 06:51 PM

I don't think anyone has said it quite like this yet, so in furtherance of adding to or subtracting from confusion...

When you want to give a turning aid, whether it's moving over or making a circle, you actually are giving the exact same aids. As you come to the place where you want to perform the movement, you prepare the horse for the circle or turn.

If you want to go left, you support with your left leg at the girth and move your right leg back; you flex with your left rein and support with your right rein.

If you just want him to move over a bit, once he is prepared, then you add a little more pressure to your right leg; this asks him to move over.

If you want him to take that preparation and make it into a turn, then you add pressure to *both* inside and outside legs. You support with the inside to keep him from just moving over, and you use your outside leg to ask him to start to do *something* besides just go straight. Since your inside leg prevents him from just moving over, his body bends around and it becomes a turning movement.

I tend to think of the rein and leg on each side as a "wall of energy." You need both walls to operate, to keep the horse between them. If you curve the wall (put leg back), it causes the horse to bend. If you drop the wall (stop supporting with one rein or the other), the horse can go right through the wall. It's a bit of a nebulous concept--I've been trying to make it into an article for months, and can't put it into words well--but it works for me :)

Dizzy

26th Oct 2003, 01:37 AM

xxx
But how does he stayUNCONFUSED about me pushing over with one leg, and pushing the opposite with other?

Your weight aid is most invisible and the most influential aid you have, this indicates to him the direction you want to take, your legs, seat and hand aids, give impulsion, support and fine tuning. That is why when training youngsters the rider should be ultra aware of being totally balanced.

I agree with CVB that we sometimes get too wrapped up with individual aids, concentrating too much on influencing 'parts' of the horse - which to my mind ruins the partnership which we are trying to achieve, because we become tense and mechanical, trying to time and give the aids at the correct time.

I'm struggling to word this - so bear with me ;)

Though our aim is nice sharp corners, flowing loops and perfect circles. We all have to start at the beginning, and work towards perfection.

The simplest way to change direction is - if you are travelling clockwise around your cones or arena and want to change the rein, shift your weight to the inside, look in the direction you want to go - imagine your eyes are in your upper chest, so that you 'look with your chest' and at the same time open your inside rien. By this I mean keep your hands as a pair (reins the same length) but swing your inside hand towards the inside of of the school (away from your outside hand, sorry struggling with wording this, have no backward pull) this invites the horse towards your hand.

Between the 3 aids you've clearly explained and directed the horse in the direction you want to take, admittedly it may not be as clean cut as you would like, but you have your leg, seat and riens aids to introduce yet.

I think its easier for the horse, to use the least complicated aids first, rewarded imediately with praise.

It can take youngsters a while to relax, trying to balance with a rider up top, is completely alien, and on top of that, we are squeezing the riens, and nudging thier sides with our legs.

Our weight aid is undemanding and easy to read, the open rien is self explanitary and invites them towards it. I'm not saying no legs at all, but aim to get the turn in the simplest, clearest way you can - introduce legs/seat and rien abit at a time - so they don't have an information overload, and get confused.

I know this sounds horribly complicated, but when put into practise it isn't. Everything we do when we're sat on our horse, influences him - weight aids are the aid that we don't need to teach. If we ride unlevel (onesided), it works against you, your horse will struggle to flex/bend on your 'otherside', as they try to keep you above them and will lean towards your weight. If we are balanced, the horse can read our body language - watch showjumpers, when they are airborne (above the jump) they are looking in the direction they need to take for the next jump - the horse feels this and lands with the correct leg leading.