Ride with your seat!

[Tootsie4U]

Fundamentals, I have. But can anyone really explain what my instructor means when she says: ( I have asked her to explain too)

"Drive him forward with your seat"
- Im thinking that means post harder with more encouragement

"Push him out under you with your seat"
-Seat deeper? In order to engage? I guess its kinda like the one above?

"Steer with your seat"
-Point my belly button in the direction I want to go which will shift my weight, which will tell the horse to turn?

Do I have it right?

[Casey76]

Errr... I'm really new to this, but my impression was that if you 'drive with your seat' you will cause any horse to hollow his back to move away from the pressure. Any impulsion should be asked for with your leg aids.

Seat aids are used for direction, by steering with the belly button as you said; and slowing down, by squeezing with the buttocks.

This is just my take on things anyway, I may be completely wrong:rolleyes:

[anuvb]

Tootsie, you never ask easy questions! :) This is never going to get any of my work done.

Driving with your seat, could just be an Altantic misinterpretation on my part. But in Europe, to drive with your seat usually means rocking forward and backward which does, as Casey states, cause the horse to hollow it's back. Usually to get a horse moving foward you want to be asking with leg aids, giving with the hand and lightening the seat a touch.

Having now seen photos of you ride - Push him out under you I can only take to mean that she wants you to relax into your seat more, so that yes, in effect you probably are sitting more deeply and should have your legs wrapped around gently, but not "pushing the horse" - to push would end up with the same effect as "drive".

Steer with your seat - now this I can answer! Steering with your seat is a little more complicated than just moving your belly button, it's using your inside hip to encourage the horse to move in the direction you want to go in - again by shifting your centre of gravity in preparation for the turn. It's a very definite placing of the hip forward to allow the horse to step under as it turns. Most riding school and instructors ask to you to turn your belly button, but this has the effect of turning the inside hip backwards and bringing the shoulder back, which actually unbalances the horse. I'd need to show you for you to see it in action, but the belly button thing and steering with your seat are in fact to totally different concepts on essentially the same movement. Again - Heather's book is excellent at describing this.

[Maria]

Hi Tootsie4U

Have a look at Heather's articles on the A Kinder Way to Ride section of this website for more information about the correct use of the seat and the weight aids for turning.

You can't drive a horse forward with your seat - it's the correct use of your legs that provides the signal/encouragement to move at the speed you want.

Maria

[Tootsie4U]

Originally posted by anuvb
Steer with your seat - now this I can answer! Steering with your seat is a little more complicated than just moving your belly button, it's using your inside hip to encourage the horse to move in the direction you want to go in - again by shifting your centre of gravity in preparation for the turn. It's a very definite placing of the hip forward to allow the horse to step under as it turns.

Ok, in order to shift MY center of gravity to steer with my seat, Im picturing someone riding a motorcycle - and leaning into a turn. They're shifting their weight to get the bike to move and in all they are changing THEIR center of gravity, and not the bikes.

"Definite placing of the hip forward "- which hip? Outside?

Great points about driving with the seat. Thats what I thought as when I did what I thought she meant, Bon hollowed immensely. (Mental note, dont do that Tootsie :D)

Will look at Hether's NR articles - why didnt I think of that :rolleyes:

[anuvb]

Oops - I mean your inside hip ;)

No, don't ride like a motor cyclist - not advisable - Bon would end up on the floor ;). By advancing the hip forward you've done enough to allow him the freedom to keep his inside hind leg engaged as you turn. Heathers explanation is SOOOOOOO much better than mine! :D

[Harry Hobbes]

Anuvb,

You're right about Tootsie never asking easy questions.

I think she's testing us.

Okay. I'll take the bait:

Tootsie,

The subject of the seat appears (to this cowboy) to be one of those arcane, but fundamental skills (if not the fundamental skill), that lies at the heart of riding, whether English, western or whatever.

Unfortunately, when we first start to ride, we are most often trained to focus on the secondary (albeit important) tasks (such as holding the reins), rather than receiving our first (and foremost) training in the acquisition of and maintenance of the disciplined "seat". (This realization, and my lack of satisfaction in my riding performance led me to stop chasing cows, and to pursue a total training effort to learn the "Classical Seat" over a two year period. In other words, I stopped targeting the training of the horse, and instead targetted training me in the proper seat.)

Most of the published works that I've reviewed give short shrift to the seat, and merely describe it in the context of body alignment while mounted.

Two notable exceptions are:

The Classical Seat. By Sylvia Lock. 80 pages. ISBN 0-9513707-1-5. This is an excellent primer; a quick and efficient read, packed with good information and not cluttered with arcane or surperfluous detail. It ought to be part of every rider's library (IMHO).

Dressage Formula. By Erik Herbermann. 170 pages. ISBN 0-85131-753-7. Another excellent read, but presented more formally, and covering many more topics than just the seat, although the topic of the seat is integrated throughout.

There are applicable caveats while discussing the seat:

1. There is an ongoing debate amoung the top riders and experts as to the merits of the finer points of application of the seat. (I believe there's a "Spanish School" view/method, and a competing "Portuguese School" view/method, and perhaps more.)

2. As it is an arcane (albeit very important) subject, there are many opinions in and out of publication regarding the "how to", so this is very much an issue of you educating yourself and making judgements about the effacacy the various opinions.

I hope this helps. Best regards,
Harry

P.S. Notice I didn't give an easy answer (heh, heh, heh).

[Tootsie4U]

No you didnt give an easy answer - I guess I have homework to do!! It sounds, though, as with most things horsey, practice makes perfect!

[galadriel]

Someone's just said this to you about something else entirely, but Heather's book is a great resource for exactly this question :) Descriptions and pictures, and *why* it works.

[Mehitabel]

would definitely echo sylvia loch and heather's books - have also heard good things about herbermann although haven't found a copy myself.
the quick (and slightly cheaty) answer while you are finding all the books and sorting the theory out - tense the muscle that holds your bum onto the back of your leg - this advances the seatbone. sit up straight at your desk, and see if you can feel both seatbones - they should have equal weight on them. tense the muscle on one side and feel what happens to that seatbone. this is how you ask for a turn. if you can stand in your riding position and do it then as well you'll get a better idea of the feel you're looking for, as sitting down obviously won't give you the same positioning of seatbones.

you will get funny looks standing with your legs apart and knees bent, tensing alternate butt cheeks!:D

[Tootsie4U]

:D Its harder to do standing up! But I feel what you mean!

[Mehitabel]

did you get the funny looks? :D

[Tootsie4U]

Not yet, thankfully I have my own office so it sorta helps. Sometimes I get caught off guard when people sneak up on me though :D

[Retty]

Hi,

I have two very different horses, one which will respond to both hands, legs and seat and one which only really responds to seat and legs and a little bit of hands so I am having to learn this pretty quick! The only thing I can say is that I have found if I move in time with Poppys movements and relax into my saddle then I can steer her with little or no reins, this may all be completely wrong but i have found that if I want to go left I will look to the left which moves my weight to where I want her to go, apply a little pressure with my left leg whilst "holding"her with my right leg, to go right is the opposite and to stop I sit back deep into the saddle and squeeze gently with both legs. Not sure how much help this is :)

[Tootsie4U]

Reading Heather's articles:

Finding some good pointers:

1)Think of allowing your pelvis to swing forward and back, as if making an arc shape, never up and down. - in regards to rising trot (knew this, but it helps to put into words)

2)On the stool, place your hands on your hips, so that you can feel your hipbones. Practise tilting the top of your right hipbone forward as you flex your spine in, so that you feel your right seatbone tip onto the front edge of it's 'rocker', then bring the right hipbone back to upright, so that your spine is straight again, next tipping the left hipbone forward, flexing in your back, then bringing it back to upright again, straightening the spine. Put these four movements together, and it will feel like the four beats of the horse's walk. Now speed it up to the two time rhythm of the trot! Place your fingers on your hipbones again, and count one, two, one, two, out loud, pushing your left hip forward on the 'one', and your right hip forward on the 'two', also flexing your lower back in and out slightly in the rhythm of the one, two.

Here I am at my desk practicing with my hands on my hips and it really does feel like being mounted at walk! I cant manage to get the same animation at trot though :p

[Tootsie4U]

Again, taken from Heather's articles here on NR

You can again practise this, sitting on a stool. Tip the top of the right hipbone slightly forward. You should also feel the right seatbone tip onto it's front edge to turn right, advance the right hipbone, feeling a little more weight emphasised on the right seatbone under you. By advancing the inside hip in this way, it also brings your left hip back so that your outside leg is positioned ready for use behind the girth to assist in the turn.

You said it just as well anuvb! ;)

[Wally]

Have to beg to differ on one point, as a bit of a biker the principle, in general, is VERY similar to riding a motorbike....only thing is if you are watching a grand prix biker he's doing 200mph so he is exaggerating his hip forward to a HUGE degree.

A biker advances the hip on the side of the turn and actually turns the handlebars in the opposite direction of the turn.

Driving the horse forward with your seat will actually impede his forward motion, what you are really aiming for is to lighten the seat and allow the horse to move under you. Driving both seat bones forward will not match the movement of the horse's back at all and you'll make him hollow and run away from under you rather than moving with you.

[DITZ]

Tootsie try turning with your seat when you are out hacking on a straight bit of path or road. You'll see that a small shift in your weight has the effect of moving your horse without any other aids being given including legs and hands.