How much is too much (time)?

[Tootsie4U]

Im not talking QUALITY of work, more like QUANTITY of work...


I am subscribed to a famous horse trainer magazine (John Lyons) and received my copy yesterday. In reading it, there is an article topic'd something like - who does more work, you or the horse? Now, I know its very early in Bon's under saddle training to really be able to judge, but let me explain...

In the thirty minutes I ride Bonfire, I am riding stride for stride. I come off that horse soaked to the bone and aching. He has barely broken a sweat. So, if I analyze that article, I'd say I am doing about 5x the work than he is. Dont get me wrong, I love it.

But, my question is; how long is too long for a young horse to be ridden? Personally, I think that what we do in those thirty minutes isnt enough for Bonfire. Given his personality, I think he would benefit from say, an hours session - divided up into three parts. First part working on moving his hip around and yielding. Next move onto walk trot work to increase our balance and then finish with other random exercises. But, and there's always a but, how do you keep the horse from becoming sour? That is just my story. Anyone else, please feel free to share.

And, most importantly, for my own benefit, how long do you actually ride your horses on any given day? Is it a lesson's lenght of time (45 minutes) or do you take hourly hacks - or do you do ranch work where the horse works an 8 hour shift? HOW LONG DO YOU RIDE YOUR HORSE? thanks

[Kimbychelsea]

I dont have my own horse( :( ) but where i ride the horses/ponies do two, one hour lessons at day at the most, For instance one in the morning and one in the afternoon,

Kimby
~x~

:D

[Mehitabel]

well, petal varies - on saturdays she does 2 hour long hacks as i escort the riding school clients on her. if i'm schooling after work i'll only do 1 hack on her and use others for the other hacks (i do 4 hours). at shows, we are working for about half an hour with a lot of standing in line as well in the class, and an inhand class. she does nothin much in the week when i am not there.

copper on saturdays does 4 hours riding school work - 3 in the morning with half hour breaks and 1 in the afternoon. he is normally either in the school or on hacks. in the week he might do one or two a day, they are closed monday and tuesday.

little and often is better for a baby than 1 long one - so if you can, 3 20 minute sessions will be better for him and one hour long one. the breaks in themselves keep the horse from becoming sour; think back to school and double lessons and you would be in a coma by the end!

in the school, i only do about 20 minutes at a time - i get bored after that and lose my motivation.

[AJB]

Hi toots, young horses can be hot and hard work cant they!!!-when I started my boy in the school last summer he was so green and I had to work stride for stride and often I was more exhausted than him-now time has passed, we have worked and with the help of a trainer I now ensure he listens more to my aids, via backing them up with a schooling whip, and therefore I work less and he works more:D .....inso far as riding goes, I try to work my horse 5-6 nights a week but I keep it varied, I dont get to the yard after work till about 6.30 and have to get him in and ready so Im in the school by 7 usually, unless the yard is busy and I have to hang around for the school to clear till 7.30 ish...then I ride for 30-40 minutes..I try to hack in the winter every Sunday and in the summer often a couple of nights after work (these hacks are about 1.5 hours-2) and then he gets a long hack on a sat or sun when Im not working summer and winter..in the dark evenings he works in the school, for example my week so far, Monday freeschool over some jumps, tuesday night off, wednesday -schooling over trotting poles, tonight-lunge with side reins etc, Friday-ride in school, probably practice our canter transitions, sat-probably night off as Im working late, and Sunday hack....sorry just realised how long and rambly this is!!!...anyway variety stops them getting sour I think and dont be afraid to quit after a shorter time than you planned if its going well and you know it gets poorer to the end of the session-I always try to end on a positive:D

[Lovecat]

I thought I was schooling Murph for at least half an hour at a time but it turns out it's more like 15-20 mins (I can't wear a watch - allergies) - he seems to have a 'dip' in the middle of the session but I think that's more down to me being knackered (I am definitely going 'stride for stride' with him at the moment!) than him...:rolleyes:

Plus, like AJB, I like to end the sesh on a high note so if he does something really well I'll end at that point - I think once last week that was after about 10 mins!:o

[anuvb]

I don't have a set time a lot depends on the horse. If I've achieved an improvement in my horse then I finish on a long rein and cool down. I don't believe there is any point in pushing the issue if they've offered to work well for me.

It usually generally breaks down into this into this sketchy outline for a reasonably schooled horse, with or without prior lunging:

Warm up, walk round on a loose rein, encouraging the horse to changing direction do circles etc with minimal contact and riding mainly from my seat. This takes anywhere from 5 minutes to 15 minutes, depending on how old or experienced the horse is. The more experienced the less time, as they have more muscle to cope with going straight into work. 15 minutes is usually reserved for the stiffest horse, and if I've done no lunging prior to riding.

Take up the contact, and start off in trot, repeating the changes of rein, circles and figures but progressively asking for more inside hind leg and flexion, less hanging on the bit, increased accuracy on the turns etc. That's probably where I'd stop with Bon if I was riding. If it's a more experienced horse then I'd be working up to introducing up and down transitions and half halts. Once I'd done a bit of both on each rein I'd give a pat and let them stretch their neck. All in all that would probably last about 10 minutes.

Then I'd probably decide what I fancied doing next whilst the horse is having a stretch and what I feel needs working on that session. Eg - more suppling if they're not engaging their hind leg, working on teh accuracy and so on. So I'd probably pick up the trot, get back to the stage where I finished the last part (should take less time as the horse is now warmed up) and start on rein backs, leg yields and should in, hind quarters in and the canter work. If I was doing lots of canter work then I'd keep it to about 5 - 10 minutes depending on the fitness level of the horse, with breaks back in walk inbetween otherwise I'd probably work for another 15 minutes in the trot getting the kind of lateral work I am happy with. If it was youngster I'd have to judge how far to push them myself and sometimes you can only ask for 2 minutes of lateral work and then have to move on to something else like pole work. If though, for any level of horse, I get what I'm looking for straight away and it's been something we've been struggling with I leave it there. It's a long rein and a pat.

If we've had agood working session and the horse feels like it's got more to give then I may finish off with a little bit of jumping or pole work, just to take the pressure off the horse.

So, all in all, I work a horse for anywhere between 15mins to 1 hour depending on the horse and what we have achieved.

The only way to prevent them going sour, is to (a) know when enough is enough - so that means if you don't achieve what you set out to achieve you've adapted your schooling plan and worked on something else which the horse is willing to work towards and (b) you keep varying it - so if the horse tires of leg yield, you start throwing in some of you changes of rein, your canter work etc, and then go back to the leg yield (c) accepting that if you've been struggling with something then two steps of the correct movement or only once around the circle is enough and to finish there.

Kind of like asking how long is a piece of string really ;)

[KarinUS]

As so aften I fully agree with anuvb so I can spare me the words to retype...heehee.

But one thing I noticed about Tootsie's post is that you thought the riding wore you more out than Bon and attributed it to his youth.
I don't want to burst your bubble, but I ride a fairly well broke horse and still a lesson wears me out more than my horse. I am attributing that to the fact that I sit at a desk all day while he can develop muscle running in a field. :confused:

[Harry Hobbes]

Tootsie,

In terms of physical exersion, you both should be working up a good sweat during lessons and practice sessions, as that says that you're both getting a good workout. You're working harder than he (at this point) because learning to ride naturally and balanced is hard work, until you acclimate physically. As you get better and natural in the saddle, and get subtle and refined with your cues (aids), you'll be better at having Bonfire work better (i.e., harder, sometimes called: honestly). 30 minutes is just a warm-up for Bonfire.

So how long is too long to ride Bonfire?

More than a 16 hour work day under saddle (Yes, sixteen hours), with periods of riding, walking, over varied terrain; then resting, then repeat, is probably pushing it for Bonfire at his young age. A seasoned mount would view such as just another work day.

If you and Bonfire were out here in Montana, you and "Jane and the rest of the girls" would be going for regular half-day mountain trail rides at least once per month (weather permitting), and your horses would be packing you about ten+ miles per trip. That's in addition to the regular English and Western training that you're all engaged in. ("Linda Elgin" would have you and Bonfire going about 20+ miles in a day; say all the way to Lizard Lakes, at 8,800 feet altitude, for lunch, and then back; "...just a little ride in the hills...".)

For you and Bonfire, a weekly trail/road ride of say, 12-18 miles in an afternoon (about 4 hours riding/leading) would be just about right. (Okay, okay, 8-10 miles if you're really out of shape.) Both you and Bonfire would really benefit from such regular rides, and you could go different directions on subsequent weekends to vary the terrain. (You'll find that you'll have to dismount and walk to spell your joints, but that's okay, as both you and he will practice leading and then be ready for the next several miles of riding.)

Should you and Bonfire do road/trail rides, say twice or four times per month, interspersed with your normal training, he'd be one healthy pony (physically, mentally and emotionally). (And your Vet would comment on "...what good shape he's in".)

Bonfire, and most adult horses (but not geriatric horses) are perfectly capable of working an occasional long day, such as driving a cattle herd into the next county, wherein they walk/trot/gallop (after critters), lead from the ground, and rest at repeating intervals throughout the day, all while still under saddle. (Although "stable-bound" horses need help and time to acclimate to this level of activity.)

(And, any horse that has a long day of work should get at least a couple of days of rest afterward.)

The amount of work and length of time working are also affected by the load which the horse must carry. As a rule of thumb, a horse should not be asked to carry more that 20% of his weight for long periods. Assuming you stay balanced in the saddle, and he's carrying less than 20% of his weight, Bonfire ought to be able to carry you for several hours and many miles at a stretch. Monitoring his performance (while you're riding) will tell you if he's straining or working too hard, and then you can lead him for awhile. Based on you post, I'd say he's hardly working during your lessons/practice.

As an example, the four-year-old gelding (950 lbs.) I've just re-trained got to go on several road rides (2-4 hours each), one half-day mountain trail ride with a "Jane and the girls", and one day-long pack trip into hunting camp in the mountains. He was carrying about 26% of his weight, so I led him about 50% of the time. (Coming out of hunting camp, it was 80% leading, as he had had a long day.) He's now "muscled up", very healthy, and easily carried his owner (she's about 140 lbs.) on several subsequent mountain trail rides.

Regarding "sourness", the best way to prevent or cure it is to change the pattern.

If you and Bonfire are following a "pattern" of say, one lesson and four practice sessions per week (each generally patterned), and never doing anything significantly different to break the pattern of activities, then sooner or later you'll run into either the "routine" problem or the "sourness" problem. They'll develop subtly and you won't see them coming until one day you realize you have a problem.

The routine problem is wherein the horse does not want to change the routine (it's adamant about only doing familiar things in familiar surroundings), and the sourness problem is where the horse is (quietly) going nuts because he needs some variation. Both affect the horse's concentration and ability to perform.

Think of it this way: If your spouse (or son) always did the same routine with little variation, such as come home from work (or school), eat, then plop down in front of the TV (or in front of the computer "surfing the Internet"), then went to bed, and then repeated the pattern daily, with variations on the weekends which themselves were patterned, how would you resolve "routine" or "sourness" issues? (I think you'll agree that you'd definately have those types of problems with them.)

Basically, you'd do something completely different with them - to break the pattern.

Maybe you'd take then to Cedar Island; or to Disneyworld; or to Paris for Christmas. Or maybe you'd invite the Jones' over to play Cribbage. Many new activities can serve to break the pattern.

Most of the sourness or routine (and many behavioral) issues that I observe with horses are directly traceable back to lack of variety in the horses' daily lives; i.e., the same routine. You can vary the routine by varying the training. Or you can vary the scenery, as in hacking out.

This (and for other reasons) is why we try to get our horses out onto the range and move cattle, or to a calf branding, or ride in the mountains, or take them hunting, or just trail/road riding (hacking).

And, it also gives you the opportunity to train differently.

As always, I live by my own advice. (If it didn't work, I'd change.)

Best regards,
Harry

P.S.
or do you do ranch work where the horse works an 8 hour shift?

I wish!
(You continue until the job's done.)

[kedwards]

When Bud was in peak fitness this summer, I rode him 1 to 2 hours a day, with one or sometimes two days off. That would include only about 30 minutes of serious work in the ring most days and 45 minutes or so once or twice a week, with at least 1/2 hour in warmup and cool down. Any extra time came from playing on the trails before and after ring work.

These days, because I'm bringing him back from injury, we're doing most of our work at walk, with a few periods of trot and short canters. I ride him about an hour, but it isn't enough for him to break a sweat because the work intensity is so low.

[showjumperchick]

i think how long your riding depends on what your trying to acheive. with a younger horse you'll probably need to ride for longer as your always trying to correct and teach, where as an older horse is just practising what they already know. i tend to ride a baby for about 45 minutes, working on specific areas that iv thought about before hand. with an older horse ill probably ride for only 20 minutes, unless i hit a problem. no point repeating the same thing over and over, thats what makes them sour.

[Tootsie4U]

Wow Harry! That made me tired just reading it!

But very interesting.... I think tonight, Im gonna spice it up a little bit....

Ground poles, cones to mark our halts, games...

And then maybe work on the balance and quit when he does well.

Interesting.... very interesting

[galadriel]

I thought I replied to this one last night...I must have lost it in one of the phone line blinks. (I'm getting DSL next week! yes!)

Anyway.

I try to keep a routine vaguely like this:
day 1) Hard schooling workout; lots of work on practicing known movemens or introduction of new movements.

day 2) Play; bareback, trail ride kind of ride, maybe a fun gallop. Lots of stretching but no hard schooling.

day 3) either:
a) rest, or
b) repeat of day 1.
It depends on how the horse and I are feeling after day 2 :)

[Horsey Bird]

It depends on the type of activity you call "work"! A 2 hour hack with my youngster (she's only 5), is nothing for her. We build in some leg yielding, and some other schooling moves and she doesnt even realise she's being schooled. When we're out with company, she'd happily continue for hours. She gets to see different things each time we're out and its interesting for her (she met her first goats the other week.....how long did we stand there just staring at those "wierd bleating creatures" ???) :D

On the other hand 20 minutes in the arena and she's falling asleep. Thats my fault really...I dont build in enough variation for her. So we do short sharp bursts of "proper" schooling and stop when I find her attention drifting.