Can anyone suggest a bit to stop leaning?

[DITZ]

My horse who ususally goes in a french link snaffle leans awfully on the inside rein on this when jumping and cantering in it is another problem altogether - lean lean lean. I have tried him in a pelham which is much better as he doesnt seem to be able to lean on it in the same way. Problem is he backs off it a little on it so contact can be a little too light. I wondered if anyone could suggest a 'halfway' bit.

In the french link I will have him in a mkt harboro and a flash, in the pelham I have him in 2 reins, no flash.

[showjumperchick]

hmmmmmm, i would try a copper roller or cherry roller snaffle or a waterford snaffle with the flash, and a martingale instead of the mkt harborogh. but also do some exercises with him to try and teach him not to rather than just preventing him doing it. how well schooled is he? shoulder in in walk trot and canter., and walk pirouettes are really good at lightening and balancing horses. i know all about leaning, my first young riders horse used to lean and lean until we were galloping wall of death styley! pm me if you need any more help, this is one area i can confidently say i am quite experienced in! ( with a change of career that same horse was 2nd in the hoys search for a star final)

[cvb]

simple answer - don't lean back ;) Sounds dumb but often works, but does require some timely half-halts (a million or so)

Why is he in a market harborough as well ? (and flash) Is there an underlying problem here that needs sorting ? Could the m.h. be adding to the lean ? Have you thought about how these 2 interact ? The m.h. will keep his head in/down and the flash stops him objecting to it - its quite a strong combination.

I'm all for working on the basic education, rather than changing bits. But having said that, some people have had good results with the Myler system. Maybe something for you to think about as they have various styles including combination bits.

My no-brakes cob was in a french link 90% of the time but in a bubble bit (with 2 reins) when I needed to know I had control if something went wrong (x-country, pleasure rides etc). The 2 reins allowed me to ride with the bottom one loose most of the time ie as a straight snaffle. It seemed to suit him.

[Lgd]

Sort out the problems on the flat with a good dressage trainer.
If he is happy in the french link, schooling will sort out the problems. If he genuinely doesn't like the bit it may be tongue pressure that he dislikes - the need for the flash and MH suggest he has a problem with bit acceptance. Try a hanging cheek snaffle as an alternative - they come in french link and single link - don't use them with a MH as it will interfere with the bit action.

If flat schooling ditch the MH and/or martingale - they are just leaning posts for the horse and cover up fundamental problems in the flat-work.

95% of jumping is the preparation and schooling on the flat. I tell people that a jumping round is a dressage test with fences in.

Jumping is fun, but without the basic building blocks from correct flat-work much of the horse's natural jumping scope is lost due to poor balance and resistance.

[galadriel]

Originally posted by Lgd
95% of jumping is the preparation and schooling on the flat. I tell people that a jumping round is a dressage test with fences in.

The way I usually say it is "Dressage is the stuff you do between fences." ;) Funny how your perspective flavors things.

[Tootsie4U]

I think we went throught this before, right? I remember suggesting to let go when he pulls, same as cvb did above, but I also remember that you tried that and it doesnt work, correct?

He only does it over jumps and at canter? What do you two do at the other gaits that keeps him light?

Could it be that he is excited and forgets himself, and will take the bit and run? Some quick corrections may be in order that would be like telling him "hey! get off it!"

[IrisSilverMoon]

Originally posted by Lgd
I tell people that a jumping round is a dressage test with fences in.



omg! my instructor says the same thing! jumping is just dressage over fences! LOL...we've even done dressage tests with jumps in the arena, you just jump wherever you run into a fence! its lots of fun!

I agree with cvb, generally leaning comes from you leaning back (whether you realise it or not) If you don't give the horse something to brace against its impossible for them to lean. So things like half halts, or tickling the rein the horse is leaning against make it impossible for the horse to brace.

if he's only doing it during jumping you might consider halting and backing a little before and after each fence to keep him light, and so he knows he can't just tank off comming in or out of the fence....:)

[DITZ]

Mmm lots of interesting ideas again! I am pretty sure I dont lean back in fact the opposite, in order to keep his speed down I generally ride very light ie take the weight into my heels and off his back, impossible to do if leaning back right?
He only does it when he gets over excitied, ie, jumping at canter. He will trot round to his hearts content and is lovely and light. In fainess he did used to lean/rush at this gait too but time and practice has combatted that so now he just does it at canter. He just gets very heavy in the hand and no amount of checking or using the outside rein has any effec tone he has got his 'head on', he simply stops listening.

As for flash/ mh combination i suppose thats just come about be chance really. He has a flash because without it he opens his jaw to evade the bit (again only when excited) and I recently added the mh as he was raising his head on the approach to a jump making it difficult to control him. Must admit to only having it only the mildest hole though. I will perhaps try without. Coming out of the fence he is OK, just going in. After a few 'goes' he gets more and more excited and his stride lengthens and the take off gets worse which then knocks his confidence and a patterm emerges!!

[IrisSilverMoon]

i think you might have misunderstood what cvb said, hehe. don't worry i misunderstood at first too.

when she said don't lean back, she didn't mean don't lean backwards, she ment if the horse is leaning don't in turn lean on him. if you were doing the opposite and leaning somewhat forward it could cause him to speed up and in turn lean on you. the horse i ride mostly will do this if you shifit your weight forward in any way. leaning backwards should have no effect on how heavy your horse is. I would actually try the opposite of what you are doing and sit very deep in the saddle, your seat will help to slow the horse down.

but if he is taking off in front of the fence as you say i would definately halt him back him up before and after the fence until he starts comming in at the pace YOU choose.

[Kezzabelle]

Hi - just a quick post- i think a waterford would help with the leaning. Good luck!

Kez :)

[DITZ]

Right see what you mean about leaning back! Am blond forgive me! You are probably right now I come to think of it in that it use to be the inside rein he leant on and so to overcome that I would almost give that away whilst checking/nudging with the outside to try and balance him a bit and using inside leg to straighten him but now I think of it hes now just leaning on the outside and not at all on the inside. Does this create a whole new set of instructions?? Tee hee!

Heres what he does on a circle, last corner into fence will lean and become very heavy in the hand ususally resulting in him speeding up or going very flat and long. Heres what I do to help - before last turn check check check with outside rein, no inside. Inside leg supporting him and moving him straight. If I were in trot I would be thinking about stopping in the approach simplly by relaxing, breathing out and dropping weight back into saddle. This seems to have the immediate effect alone of calming him and jump is therefore in nice calm rythmn. Must admit to not doing the last bit in canter yet so will try that, should help right??

How come just thinking slow works by the way?

[Shiny McShine]

Originally posted by DITZ
He has a flash because without it he opens his jaw to evade the bit (again only when excited) and I recently added the mh as he was raising his head on the approach to a jump making it difficult to control him. Must admit to only having it only the mildest hole though. I will perhaps try without. Coming out of the fence he is OK, just going in. After a few 'goes' he gets more and more excited and his stride lengthens and the take off gets worse which then knocks his confidence and a patterm emerges!!

The problem seems to be with him getting excited. In my opinion all problems with contact are caused by the horse being tense... not being relaxed in mind and/or body. If the horse is relaxed he will use his body correctly which will make it easier for him to take a contact, and if his mind is relaxed he will not feel the need to fight the contact.

I would recommend trying to find ways of relaxing your horse. Some horses relax by going over poles, others by going out for walk, others by doing some lateral movements... there are many ways to get a horse to relax and I suggest if you can find the best way to relax your horse things will be easier. Every time he gets tense you can go back to your relaxing exercises until he is calm again... and break the pattern.

Another thing you need to be quite sure of is that you yourself are not becoming tense when your horse does. If you are getting tense then chances are you are holding onto the reins and sitting tightly, and you may not realise. Most people ride tensely most of the time, it is a hard habit to break.

I hope that is of some help, gives you some ideas at least... it may not agree with your situation in which case disregard it, but I do really think that any problem you have with contact will be caused by the horse not being fully relaxed.

[IrisSilverMoon]

Originally posted by DITZ

Heres what he does on a circle, last corner into fence will lean and become very heavy in the hand ususally resulting in him speeding up or going very flat and long. Heres what I do to help - before last turn check check check with outside rein, no inside. Inside leg supporting him and moving him straight. If I were in trot I would be thinking about stopping in the approach simplly by relaxing, breathing out and dropping weight back into saddle. This seems to have the immediate effect alone of calming him and jump is therefore in nice calm rythmn. Must admit to not doing the last bit in canter yet so will try that, should help right??

How come just thinking slow works by the way?

yes! definately try that! sometimes i'll even just sit to the last fence if the horse is starting to get pushy and let them push me out of the saddle with their jump...:)

I think thinking slow works because you subconsciously give the aids to slow down. You don't always realise you are doing it, but the horse can definately feel it!

[DITZ]

Its amazing how just talking though problems on here can just sort them out, its as though it forces you to think of things more and as soon as you do (well me anyway), you realise whats happening.

I think i am higly guilty of tensing up and I absolutely agree its all to do with his relaxation. We have made steady progress to where we are now - at first he had such little confidence that he would charge at flat out gallop at the fence even if you were only in walk! Lots of practice has helped him to get used to doing it in trot now and have to say its almost perfect, just need to sort out the canter as obviously this is still stressing him out.

Will do the same excercises that worked at trot in canter, the one which seemd to be a 'eureka' moment for him was getting him to halt before the jump, all of a sudden he started to listen because he didnt know what was going to happen next (must admit though first couple of halts were pretty rough!!).

Do I need to go from canter - halt or just canter to trot do you think?

[cvb]

lean back - yes I did whether that would come across as body or hands. It was meant as hands and as 'leaning in return' rather than a backwards incline of body !

How come just thinking slow works by the way?

:D was playing with this at the weekend, in the western saddle. Parelli talks about smiling to go and yawning to stop. (ie lift energy, lower energy). So I was doing this walk-trot, and trot-walk, then up to canter and back. Its really amazing how little you need ! And the horses get really attentive cos they know you're 'whispering' so they've got to listen (rather than use ear-plugs cos you're yelling).

Do I need to go from canter - halt or just canter to trot do you think?

I guess the risk of going to trot is that you'll get a horrible unbalanced trot. Perhaps a progressive slow down, ie to walk if needed but if the trot is good, don't slow any further ?

Like you say, part of the game is keeping them listening and not making assumptions about what comes next !

Just one other comment - Waterfords: everyone thinks they are horribly severe bits but like with most bits - thats only really true in the wrong hands.

[DITZ]

great thanks, i may try a waterford, see if I can borrow one or something. I must admit that the harder the bit the less you seem to need to use it, certainly in my case anyway.