head sets

[Silver1]

hi everyone, Working with Mears head to get her to use the muscles on the back of her neck got me thinking about her head position. I know probably she's gonna do trail, but the good news for that is that there are no tack or head set requirements here. Just as long as you can do it, it doesn't matter.

I was looking online and found several head sets that seem 'wrong' to me, and one I found that I kind of liked. My question is how do I avoid the bad ones, and aquire the 'good' one? Is there something I can do?

This one it looks like his muscles in his neck are really tense. I've seen this a lot and thought it was the horse pulling. Am I right?

[Silver1]

This next one I can't find fault in, but it still looks forced to me. Please correct me if I'm wrong here. ;)

[Silver1]

This one has the horse with the exact same head set, but the horse seemed more relaxed, and more...well...natural. Like the horse was born to carry its head that way. What do you all think?

[virtuallyhorses]

Originally posted by Silver1


This one it looks like his muscles in his neck are really tense. I've seen this a lot and thought it was the horse pulling. Am I right?

Yes, however the muscle tension is 'correct' the horse is relaxed and is stretching over the poll correctly (you can tell because the correct muscles are showing) the problem is that the rider has perhaps allowed too little rein - the horse is behind the vertical but the eye and ears are very relaxed.

The second photo looks like Arthur Kottas riding (I could be wrong) there doesn't appear to be any tension through the elbow or rein to me so I wouldn't say its forced. A horse at halt is rather hard to compare since there are no active muscles - remember that just having to move causes muscles to tense\move etc :)

Rather than looking at any of these it would be better to remember that 'head set' is not something you should try to achieve - instead it is the final result of correct riding and athletic development. A horse should always be ridden from behind so instead of worrying about head set - work on impulsion and rhythm.

[Shiny McShine]

It is probably a little hard to make a judgement because we don't know the circumstances of the pictures, were they in show conditions, training conditions... what stage is the horse at etc. However, I will say that while I would be happy to have my horse in the frame demonstrated by the 2nd and 3rd horses, I would not be content to ride my horse as is the horse in the 1st picture.

It doesn't demonstrate a picture of relaxation and cooperation as far as I'm concerned. In this picture the frame is incorrect because the horse is behind the vertical and that puts excess pressure on the horse, meaning he can't give his best performance... and this horse, in my opinion, is obviously tense as a result. He is clearly being pulled behind the vertical by the riders hands as the contact appears very strong, with the horse's lips pulled back by the bit in that way. The teeth look clenched and the jaw also looks tense. The eyes and the ears do look happy enough but I suspect that that is just the timing of the picture... although horses will put up with a lot. If I saw someone holding onto my own horse's mouth that way I would have some sharp words... but then everyone has different standards.

I would agree that the horse in the second picture does look a bit tense also, thought the frame is correct. He looks tense in the jaw also... I don't know what stage of training this horse is at or what they were doing when that picture was taken though so it's a bit hard to say what might have been going on. Either way I guess that is a frame to aim for, just with a bit more relaxation in there. Remember though that the more taxing the exercise the more tense the horse will be. If the horse was just learning a movement in that picture then the tension is probably justified.

In the last picture the horse is standing still with a free rein, so it is logical that he will adopt a natural and comfortable position.

[galadriel]

Originally posted by Silver1
This next one I can't find fault in, but it still looks forced to me.

Horses with longer/narrower necks often look slightly forced to me, even when they're relaxed and giving to the bit. I wonder if it takes more work for them, or if it's just an illusion created by the contrast between such a thin neck and one with more bulk & muscle.

Unless there's something very clearly strange about it (seriously overbent, for example) it's hard to draw conclusions from a snapshot.

[Tootsie4U]

Ok, I dont know too much and the others have a better idea about this sort of thing, so go with what they have to say.

But, to me, the horse in #1 looks almost like he's halted (shoulder angle) and that the rider hasnt' released the contact, thus making him come behind and chomp the bit. I could be way off. If not, then its the riders error for not concentrating on what the back end is doing, somewhat like what virtually says in her last paragraph.

As far as the second picture, yes, he has the correct verticle, but what happened to the relaxed angle of the neck? Sure, hes moving with plenty of impulsion and his reach is amazing, but I personally would like to see his poll level with his wither. Is that a specific dressage movement that the rider is going for for having his head so high? :confused:

The last one looks really long to me. But nothing else to add about that one. Could be like Gal says, just an illusion based on the conformation of the horse.

Someone able to fill me in?

[Silver1]

Thanks everybody for your replies! I knew this was going to be an interesting discussion. I don't know anything about the pictures actually, I found them in various photo galleries and thought I'd put them up to see what you guys think. :)

[Echo64]

Gah, I hate technology. A whole post on here, and the thing shuts down on me.

Anyway, I agree with what the others are saying. There's an excellent article at Anky.com (http://www.anky.com) about training head and necks here (http://tkfy.asp4all.nl/anky/home/card_1_3_61.htm) This was the way that I was always taught that was "correct", so now I much prefer to ride a "deep" horse than one with his face in the air, or one that's behind the bit and broken at the third vertebrae (that's the what the first image is indicating to me - am I completely wrong?!)

[Silver1]

Thanks Echo!
Here is why I was asking about head sets:
I was working Mear and someone showed me how to Long Rein mear to get her to be able to move her head around. The middle photo is what Anna did that improved Mear the best, she seemed happier, her stride got better (after a little stumbling trying to figure out the new balance) and she now occasionally holds her head that way at liberty.

The article you showed is just what I need, I want to encourage her to stretch out her neck and arch it just a little.

[Shiny McShine]

Originally posted by Tootsie4U
I personally would like to see his poll level with his wither. Is that a specific dressage movement that the rider is going for for having his head so high? :confused:

Someone able to fill me in?

In dressage the aim is to teach the horse to carry himself in the way that puts least strain on his body. This way is collection. When the horse is collected the front end becomes lighter as the horse learns to use his hindquarters (the strongest part of the horse) to carry the riders weight instead of carrying most of that on the front end. The back legs bend more and step closer to the horses centre of gravity. To be able to do this the horse must be allowed to come up at the front, and it is the combination of the raising of the forehand and the restraining contact used to maintain collection that result in the type of head carriage seen in picture # 2. This is a typical dressage frame for educated horses. The more educated the horse the higher the poll will be above the wither (within limits).

Having the poll level with the withers is something that an inexperienced dressage horse would exhibit. Until the horse is strong enough to shift the weight back he will go with a lower head set. It is more common to see horses with lower head carriages because most people who are not seriously into dressage will not reach a level where there horse is needing to have the head higher.

I hope that makes sense... and please correct me if any of that is wrong, I'm not exactly an expert at dressage, I'm just going on what I have read basically.

[Echo64]

Silver: I'm glad I could be of some service. :) There sure are a lot of posts in here: it's great to see people talking about things like that :) :)

[Katie_85]

Nope, the second picture is Bill Woods, just found the same picture of him on his website. He's Deborah's dressage trainer actually! Nice guy too, very funny! :D

[Silver1]

yep, you're right, not saying he's not a bad guy, not saying he's wrong. Just saying that the head set looks stiff to me. If thats correct for his dicipline, thats fine, I still don't like the way it looks.

[Tootsie4U]

Hi Shiny,

Pictures cant lie, but they can fool us ;) That horse certainly is engaged, but about the head... I was always told that when a horse carries his head high, its a sign that he is using his front half to lift and carry himself. That picture is just confusing and bugging the heck out of me :D How does that come into play then?

[galadriel]

Originally posted by Tootsie4U
Pictures cant lie, but they can fool us ;) That horse certainly is engaged, but about the head... I was always told that when a horse carries his head high, its a sign that he is using his front half to lift and carry himself. That picture is just confusing and bugging the heck out of me :D How does that come into play then?

That doesn't make any sense to me. Some horses have naturally high head carriage. A horse that conformationally has his neck attached up high must carry his head where his balance puts it--which is fairly high.

If you look at, say, pictures of Grand Prix horses who're super-collected, their heads are often higher than you would expect. As they compress the neck and shorten their body, the head raises some. Horse has to carry his head where his balance and his body movement puts it. When he "sits" in back, lowers his back end to take more weight--his front end is higher than his back end. It's like a seesaw--one can't go down without the other looking higher.

When the hind end goes down and supports more weight, the front end becomes more light and the horse can carry his own weight in front more comfortably. I don't understand how carrying a head high would contraindicate that.

Found these:
http://www.equerry.com/pics/eq_ftho-dressage.jpg
http://www.sporthorse-breeder.com/Stallions/Rubinstein/rubinstein_photo.jpg

[galadriel]

Some more links to pretty pictures, since I found them while doing the above search :)
http://www.chronofhorse.com/special/03/usalzgeber%20.jpg
http://www.copperspringfarm.com/images/Donnerhall.JPG
http://www.dressageunltd.com/jerez2002weg/images/gpsrustytr.jpg
http://www.dressageunltd.com/jerez2002weg/images/gpslisa.jpg
http://www.dressageunltd.com/aachen/images/albano60.jpg
http://www.dressageunltd.com/jerez2002weg/images/gpslars1s.jpg
http://www.horsesalesandgallery.com/HyTec.jpg
http://www.dressageunltd.com/jerez2002weg/images/gpsfarktr4.jpg
http://www.copperspringfarm.com/images/Donnerschlag1.JPG

Mmmmmmmm, pretty.

[Tootsie4U]

Oh my, now Im super confused.

So when a horse is long and low, whats that doing for his carriage -other than stretching?

If he's engaged and head high, as long as he isnt hallow, its correct then?

Maybe my experience in dressage isnt what I thought it was :S

[galadriel]

Long and low is pretty much for stretching. When a horse is working on the bit, he's using those long muscles down his back to lift his front end (which is very heavy :)). Long and low is another way of working those muscles, stretching them the other way, to make sure that horse doesn't cramp up. Long and low is very important in schooling (in my opinion--some people hate it), to give the horse a chance to keep working but to stretch out.

[Mehitabel]

also, a 'correct' head and neck position varies according to what level of stressage the horse is at. so the advanced horses in galadriel's links have a mich higher and more collected head carriage than a novice horse would.

so this pic (http://groups.msn.com/horsewebbers/essneakysecondalbum.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=562) of toby at one of his first stressage tests shows a perfectly good novice 'baby' outline (terrible pic, he's going down a hill and it's taken off a video) whereas the following year (http://groups.msn.com/horsewebbers/essneakysecondalbum.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=303) his head and neck are much more upright as he has learned to sit on his hocks more.

[galadriel]

Originally posted by Es
also, a 'correct' head and neck position varies according to what level of stressage the horse is at. so the advanced horses in galadriel's links have a mich higher and more collected head carriage than a novice horse would.

I was trying to say that and just couldn't make it come out :) Thanks!

(I went to the feed store today and couldn't remember the name of the stuff I've been feeding for 2 years. It's been a bad day for words...)

[Silver1]

Hey Gal, i looked at all those pictures, and though they have high head carriage yes, they don't look tense to me, they look relaxed and pretty good looking but yes, collected.

[Shiny McShine]

Originally posted by Es
also, a 'correct' head and neck position varies according to what level of stressage the horse is at. so the advanced horses in galadriel's links have a mich higher and more collected head carriage than a novice horse would.

Yes that was also the point I was trying to make... I'm glad someone here knows how to make sense ;).

[Waikato Valuta]

i wouldnet have thought any of those were correct.

I got told and have read in many books that the front legs should not extend past the line the hosres head makes with the ground. It has become very popular to ride in the very short necked outline but it's not clasicly correct.

correct me if i'm wrong.

I'd only realy like the 2nd and 3rd pics but probably the 2nd most.

[Shiny McShine]

Waikato Valuta, yes I have also heard that but I think it was more that the line of the face should not be behind the point of the toe... the horses neck should lengthen as the stride lengthens. I read this in Franz Maringer's book/biography. I am not exaclty an expert on dressage but it seems to makes sense for the sake of looseness and freedom of movement. I can only imagine that it would put pressure on the horse to have his neck short all the time.

As far as that goes the only picture posted here that doesn't conform to that rule is the first picture galadriel posted. I couldn't find fault with any of the others in that regard.

Out of interest Maringer also stated that in trot the angle of the hind cannon and front forearm of each pair of diagonal legs should be even.

[cvb]

just a quick comment on the Anky link - there has been a whole pile of debate about "long and low" vs "round and deep" previously on this board. So if you want to read up more on it, have a look for the previous (long) discussions !

[Lgd]

Number one - overbent, resisting in the mouth, tipping head slightly to one side. Would need to see the full picture to comment further

Number 2 - overall outline is not incorrect but horse is displaying quite a lot of tension in the neck and back. Needs to relax and work over the back more. Not really down the rein - note the angle of the weymouth is way over 45 degrees.

Number 3 - they can all look good in halt, bit parked out behind if anything.

As for leg shouldn't be in front of the nose in extensions - common mistake made in that people tend to look at the moment of suspension, it should actually relate to when the forefoot strikes the ground. There are also conformational issues to take into account - short coupled horses with long legs can quite easily go past their noses even on the footfall. Although as a genaral rule of thumb a well-conformed horse will not.

[Tootsie4U]

Very interested in that cvb, thanks for pointing that out.

[cvb]

Hi guys

had a work meeting interrupt this conversation. For those who are interested, one of the previous dicussions on "round and deep" is at this link (http://64.4.14.250/cgi-bin/linkrd?_lang=EN&lah=7a6cc97e5432906afa024d2376faaf9e&lat=1069406435&hm___action=http%3a%2f%2fwww%2enewrider%2ecom%2fforum%2fshowthread%2ephp%3fthreadid%3d27014%26goto%3 dnewpost)

(I think !) I'll have another quick look and see what others ones there are

[Tootsie4U]

Sorry to be a bother but I am truly interested. I'll try searching under round and deep again on my own, but that link isnt working for me cvb.... :(

[cvb]

try this one (http://www.newrider.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15171)

(Its called "Riding deep and riding overbent". To do the search I had to search for "round and deep" rather than "long and low")

[Silver1]

thanks you guys for responding, I'll check out the link!