Specific hand position for leg yeilds?

[Tootsie4U]

The other day I got two strides of crossing over (rear leg stepped under and over) when asking for simple leg yielding. This is on Bonfire of course. It was after about a dozen times ...repetition seems to help Bonfire. Once he got it, I stopped and went onto something else.

Been trying again and getting it on occassion. Last night, I had an "observer" tell me that Im doing it all wrong. Now, I dont fully trust this person, so Im here asking...

Tracking right, come out of the bend on the quarter line. Add inside leg, hold him with the inside rein, open the outside rein and use weight aids accordingly.

or

Tracking right, come out of the bend on the quarter line, add inside leg, hold him straight with both reins and use weight aids accordingly.

I guess to simplify, where and what should my hands be doing to help Bonfire understand?

[cvb]

yup - guess who's bored at work.....:p

I was taught a slightly different way of doing this when I went to Sweden, which might help.

Tracking right, turn across the long diagonal of the school. Now you are going to ask for just a tiny fraction of left flexion while riding the first few strides of the diagonal "straight". Having 'assumed the position', use your left leg (inside to the flexion) at the girth to ask the horse to step across so that you start to leg yield along the diagonal. Support with 'outside' (in this case - right) rein, and look in the direction you are going (ie towards the far quarter marker).

Often when I have been taught leg yield in UK, you end up with the rider in the most awful contorted position, and the horse crabbing away underneath :rolleyes:

Thing is we tend to feel we must sling the leg back to ask the horse over. This can lead to confusion later on eg mum - do you want me to canter or go sideways :confused:

Try it with inside leg on the girth (feels like a lot of work but ultimately you get a better quality leg yield - cos they really are yielding to the leg not just waving their rear ends about !) - across the diagonal a few times to get the feel.

Now - riding large, turn around the last corner of the short side and, maintaining the flexion you had for the corner, ask with inside leg and leg yield along the long side . (shoulder fore).

You can circle any time you feel the horse starts to struggle, set up and start again.

Doing it starting with these two approachs helps to start both rider and horse falling towards the rail/fence. (if you use the quarter line approach).

Back to your original question - you need to be riding "inside leg into outside rein" so need to support/hold with outside rein and soften/ask for flex with inside rein. If you open outside rein too much you are likely to lose that shoulder.

Once again (like going round a circle) you are actually aiming for 'straightness' in the leg yield. (I have to quote an instructor who once screamed at a fellow pupil "thats not a leg yield thats a banana !".)

So your hands should just be 'allowing' the movement and not doing too much to create (aka interfere with ;) ) it.

Make sense ?

[Claire Louise]

i was always taught that when teaching a horse to leg yield at the begining that a small bit of inside bend helped to get the horse to understand which way his/her shoulders were supposed to be going. However the correct way of true leg yield would be with a straight position throughout the horse. Hope this helps.

[Lovecat]

Well, I'm by no means an expert, so others please feel free to shoot me down :D but this is what I've been told to do with hands when working on leg yield:

Coming out of the bend and moving up the 3/4 line, keep a slightly firmer contact with the inside rein, getting just enough bend so that you can see the horse's eyelashes on the inside side (if that makes sense!). It's only a teeny tiny amount of 'give' you are looking for. As you apply pressure with the inside leg, use squeeze release with the outside rein, keeping your contact with the inside rein, to persuade him to move over to the outside track.

Hope this helps - sounds like Bonfire's working it out no matter! I know that repetition helps Murph immensely - the first time you ask there's no chance, but by the 3rd or 4th go he'll get it quite nicely!

Cathy:D

[Tootsie4U]

That is exactly what I was taught Cathy. But, observer last night said no, and it seems that cvb also says opposite. Support with outside rein, give with inside? :confused: But the way you said it is exactly what I was told by my so-so instructor and what I've been doing. :confused:

[Mehitabel]

i pretty much agree with chev here. personally though, i haven't found much trouble with confusion with canter aids though, with having a leg back, as the setup and the rest of the aids are different. i also would think the horse is more likely to get comfused with impulsion requests if the lateral aids are on the girth?
my aids are - come off track (not on 1/4 line for a baby, only about 2 foot from the track), get a straight line going parallel to the track. feel with inside rein but don't give outside rein - for the shoulder. inside leg back and use it as the inside hind leg steps under. outside leg stays on more or less, depending on how much the horse moves over. it it scoots over immediately, then plenty of outside leg, to keep forward movement and avoid the crabbing.
seatbones, use the outside one.
-inside rein feels to stop horse just turning and going to the track diagonally.
-outside rein to keep shoulders straight and avoid falling out to the track.
-outside leg on as normal to maintain forward movement
-inside leg back and going in time with inside hindleg.
-outside seatbone on.
-voice saying 'over'. (my lot learn 'over' as a voice command early on.)

[Tootsie4U]

So, essentially, the outside rein must remain "closed" to keep the horse from turning? So, basically, all you do with your hands/reins is soften with the inside?

Gawd, we're all fuddled up over here :D

[cvb]

tootsie

"soften/flex" with inside rein doesn't mean give it away :eek: !

If it helps, break down the leg yield into each step ie if I'm on right rein, in trot, then I'm asking right fore and left hand to cross across, then left fore and right hind. Each step needs to stay in balance. But if I use too much rein, then I'm not asking the legs to cross, I'm asking the body to turn.

In terms of leg going back - I have seen some quite extreme versions with lower leg swinging back from knee and ending up heading towards the stifle.

If you think about it, if you have slight inside flexion (on right rein, so right flexion), then you should have inside/right leg on the girth and outside/left leg slightly behind the girth.

Now you want to go to the left - so if you take the right leg back, you are asking him to move quarters to left and hence he may not maintain the right shape/flexion. You end up with an S shape as neck is still being asked to look right whereas quarters have been asked to go left.

Whereas if you think of your legs maintaining shape, energy etc - then you need to keep right leg on the girth.

When they did this in a lesson in Sweden, I had to translate as well as get my head around it. Language problems meant I just figured I'd do it and analyse it after ;) and when I found it worked, and was better quality, it all started to fall into place for me.

Go one step ahead to half pass - this time horse is flexed in direction of movement - so half pass to right has left flexion. This time left leg is on girth and right leg behind. Yet horse still goes sideways !

What is the difference between leg yield and half-pass - simplisitically speaking it is not the direction of movement, it is the position of the horse while making that movement. How does your horse know whether to leg yield or half pass ? From your position and aids. You need to differentiate at this point - and be very clear in what you are asking your horse, so that at a later date you can then say "now go sideways, but like this ) rather than ( ".

[cvb]

one more comment to back up my case for inside leg on the girth. Say you are on a circle, and you are going to leg yield out on to a larger circle.

Lets make it a right circle (clockwise) - then I am leg yielding to the left, with right flexion. As I am on a circle, I already have inside(right) leg on girth and outside(left) leg behind.

So now how do I ask for leg yield ? "My" version would be simply to ask with inside leg on the girth - looking out to your larger circle helps get the weight aids right. What happens if you do it the other way and take inside/right leg back ?

(I suspect my problem with selling 'my' version is that there are some subtle things going on, which don't get included in the simple explanation cos they just happen when you do it - honest. ie you don't need to think too hard about weight etc cos if you have horse positioned right and look where you are going, it all falls into place. I do have a bad habit of my 'outside' (left in this example) leg floating off the horse (trying to lead the direction !) rather than supporting - but as long as I keep it under control, we seem to get reasonable results !)

[Mehitabel]

If you think about it, if you have slight inside flexion (on right rein, so right flexion), then you should have inside/right leg on the girth and outside/left leg slightly behind the girth.


now i've been told that you don't ideally want inside flexion when leg yielding - you want the horse as close to straight/parallel to the fence as you can get. the looking in is to teach the horse not to lead out with the shoulder, and decreases as you get better to no more than a slightly firmer hold on the inside rein. so it isn't a 'do this' aid, it's a 'don't fall out' aid used to differentiate from just asking the horse to turn and go to the track.

In terms of leg going back - I have seen some quite extreme versions with lower leg swinging back from knee and ending up heading towards the stifle.


my leg going back is from the hip, and about 3 inches from normal position - obviously swinging from the knee is a nono. i am not convinced though, that the way to avoid the swing is not to teach leg back. the leg back helps to weight the approariate seatbone.


this time horse is flexed in direction of movement - so half pass to right has left flexion. This time left leg is on girth and right leg behind. Yet horse still goes sideways !

i am confused. i thought for a half pass you had outside leg back? so going to the right, head bent to right, body curved like a C and left leg back? am i wrong - i have only very occasionally ridden one, and that was with DQ just saying 'this leg here, this hand does this'.
whereas leg yield from left to right, horse almost straight but looking slightly to left, right leg still back.

Lets make it a right circle (clockwise) - then I am leg yielding to the left, with right flexion. As I am on a circle, I already have inside(right) leg on girth and outside(left) leg behind.

So now how do I ask for leg yield ? "My" version would be simply to ask with inside leg on the girth

so how does the horse now know the difference from just give me more impulsion, or is that from your looking out?

my version of leg yielding out onto a bigger circle is to relax the left (outside) leg aids a bit, as that will block the outwards movement, change the weight on my seatbones to the outside one, and to use my inside leg further back, in pulses in time with the inside hind.
also to relax my outside rein a touch to alow the shoulder to move out a bit.
to leg yield in on the same circle, i get my 20m circle and then look forther round, weight my inside seatbone a bit more, and use stronger outside aids.

[Tootsie4U]

Whatever works for each horse is the correct one I guess, but you see how easy it is for a beginner/intermediate rider/student to get confused! ;)

[Mehitabel]

there's a great saying 'ask 10 riding instructors how to do something and you will get 11 different answers'. :D
that's one thing i really value about these boards - you can get so many different viewpoints.

[Shiny McShine]

I think as with most things in riding you have to respond to what the horse is giving you. There are the fundamental aids for the leg yeild, which will work when everything is going well, but there are also going to be adjustments and variations you need to make to suit the horse, the situation and all the variables.

This is my idea of the "text book" aids for the leg yeild in ideal circumstances (given an educated horse, rider and no distracting factors):

1) Place more weight on the inside seat bone (for a right leg yeild this will be the right seat bone).
2)The inside leg gives the forewards and sideways leg aid.
3)The outside leg is positioned as a guarding leg aid to prevent the quarters moving out and supporting the forward movement.
4)The rider gently asks for flexion on the inside rein.
5)The outside rein gives to allow the flexion while maintaining a steady contact. The outside rein also acts as a guarding rein aid to prevent the shoulder falling out.

A novice rider/horse would usually leg yeild towards the wall to help guide the horse sideways.

Things don't always go perfectly however, and sometimes you may need to give away the outside rein, or use a stronger inside leg for example... depending on the horse and the situation.

[anuvb]

I was going to avoid posting on this thread as I was getting confused with all the different explanations! Anyway, all I'll say is that I think I do what Es does and that I agree with her about the half pass. Or at least that's what I've been taught by instructor!

Where's LgD when we need her - we need her to clarify! :)

EDIT - oh no. Have just re-read cvb's and I kind of agree with her too. Oh dear am back to my confused state again. For the flexion thing:

(1) If I was leg yielding on the right rein, on the three quarter line, heading back to the outside track I would expect the shoulder of the horse to be straight heading straight down the long side, but I would want to see a slight softening or flexion to the right so that the weight I carry would be in my outside hand. Effectively, this means I am pushing the horse into my outside aid, which results in them softening their contact with the inside rein. My rein position in this instance is going to vary with the horse, and where the horse is going. Some horses need to be lead in the early stage of leg yield so the outside hand will come off the neck, but in more supple horses I would probably keep the outside rein as normal and push the wieght with my seat and leg into that rein, holding it tight enough so that the horse doesn't escape through it's shoulder, but also allowing enough freedom in the rein so that horse moves into the rein rather than away from it.

(2)I would be then pushing the weight of the horse over with my inside leg (on or behind the girth, but only ever so slightly), but holding my outside leg such that the horse didn't escape through it's back end and S- like a cvb describes. This means that the outside leg probably isn't going to stay in one position all of the time, it's going to respond to how the horse moves, so in some cases I'll want it completely out of the way (on the girth) to allow the horse to move over, but in some cases if the horse feels like it's about to snake, then I'll be putting it behind the girth to prevent the horse falling out of it's back end.

(3) my weight is on my outside hip, which is forward into the saddle, to lead the horse back to the track.

Any clearer? Probably not ;)

[kelsey]

I am with cvb on this one.

Also, not sure if anyone mentioned it but you need to coordinate your aids with your horse's "swing" ie if you are leg yielding in walk you use your inside leg in the same rhythm as in a normal walk stride to properly influence the hind legs to cross over.

BTW I have just read a GREAT book called Feeling Dressage - I think the author is Ruth Sabine Schaefer (???). She has a lot to say on the timing of the aids.

[cvb]

.... was getting very tempted to go into "Because it just IS ok !!" :o :D

Mainly through failure to explain it clearly and running out of whys to describe it in a way that would help people go "aha, now I see what you mean !" (not necessarily agree, just understand clearly). Thamk goodness I don't have to talk the horse through it - we can just get on and do it !

My point about half-pass vs leg yield was trying to point out that in each movement you are combining a question about position with a question about direction. For the two movements the direction may be the same but the position is different.

However, my firm suggestion would be for folk to go out and have a play with it. ie start from base up and 'evolve' the aid. If only because this is often the best way to get it stuck in your mind ! I'd be interested to hear how it goes. Like I said, before my experience in Sweden, I'd have done it by taking the leg back to ask for the 'across'. But having done it, I now try and do it with my leg on the girth.

We're also working on shoulder fore and a little bit of quarters in, so I have to be quite clear what I am asking for at what point in time.

The other interesting thing about Sweden was how soon they started riders doing lateral work - which is another reason for my suggestion to just go and dooooo it. Because we tend to back off from lateral work (no pun intended) cos we thinkwe're not "good enough". Whereas actually there's nothing wrong with having a go and learning a little from the experience. No one expects us to be perfgect first time (apart from ourselves :p).