Is she too much for me? (long - sorry)

[larri]

As a few of you know I've had Safi since she was 18 months old and have acheived a lot with her in the last 3 1/2 years.

She's gone from being a hugely dominant bolshy yearling to a bigger, stronger hugely dominant bolshy teen :eek:

Now maybe I'm being overly sensitive atm because of Kaiya dying, but my relationship with her seems to be deteriorating by the day, and she's gone from being a willing little mare who would happily follow me around in the field, took to training like a duck to water...to a pushy, ignorant monster who just wants her own way and WILL fight me to get it.

I know she's much fitter, and that going to a new yard following only six weeks at the trainers must have unsettled her, also that despite our long association and previous good relationship - she has recognised that I'm not as experienced as the trainers -but she's even barging me in the stable and her ridden work!!!!!:eek: :eek:
Put it this way - after a horrendous fight with her on Tuesday - she tanked off every time I asked for canter and refused to work softly, and yes I hate to admit it but I did lose my rag with her :( , I thought I'd make last night a getting to know each other fun session....and she wasn't interested.

Tried some loose schooling - something we used to have real fun with...no softness, she kept presenting me with her backside and shaking her head at me, then refused to be caught for half an hour and just cantered off every time I went to approach her. So I thought we'd do some ridden pole work...bad idea, as soon as I got on she took off, galloped to the other end of the school (thought she was going to jump over the fence) and in a turn worthy of the bullfighters she is descended from, span so that I came shooting off. (Question- have you ever tried to find your glasses in a sand arena, when you're winded, disorientated and crying and can't see as far as the end of your nose:o ?)
I had to walk away and calm down - I felt so angry & disappointed in her AND me. I feel like getting her to work with me is a mountain I just don't seem to have the appetite or energy to climb right now......Help

[Mehitabel]

it does strike me as odd that safi has changed so much since she came back from being broken.

did you ride her when she was there? or see her ridden - what was she like?

has she always been someone who needed a firm hand and the odd telling off, or was she previously willing to work with you witohut too much fuss?

[Esther.D]

Sounds like she has a real dose of the terrible teens :( Gallie was so unbearable at that age (including nipping and bolting) that I turned him away for 6 months and did nothing other than keeping up basic handling. I am not suggesting that this is what you need to do I am just sympathising...if terrible teens were that terrible in a 9.2hh shetland I hate to see them in Safi....

The only thing I can suggest comes from my experience with all my shetlands as teens...you need to be very much her boss. You need to dominate, not through force but through personality. Everytime you handle her you need to be very firm and confident and growl at her if she messes you about, make her work hard and don't accept the tiniest bit of messing about.

Just my happorth for what it is worth. If you look at this thread
http://www.newrider.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27579
you can see that I am hardly in the position to lecture anyone about motivation and self-belief with an awkward horse:rolleyes:

...Es and I cross-posted...yes it does seem a bit odd...my post was assuming she was a bit of a madam all along but had got much worse.

[Horsey Bird]

All I can say is "hang in there". Mine did the transition from a cuddly, inquisitive sweet natured little thing to an evil EVIL horse. ML is 5 so is a similar age to Saffi....like Esther says it really was a case of teenage behaviour.

In my case I just stuck with it and wouldnt let her walk over me....and she really did try. I got kicking, biting, barging, chasing me, you name it, we had it. That phase lasted about 2 -3 months on and off early this summer but its now gone (TG for that!!) Occasionally now she will try her luck again, but its never a very serious attempt :D

I have my "nice" horse back again....but when things were bad I went through periods of awful doubts...."should I sell her", "have I caused this behaviour", "am I ruining her". etc. Eventually I realised that it was all a function of her age and her wish to dominate me (she's quite a dominant mare in the herd).

In the end all I needed was to be very very persistent, not let her away with bad behaviour and most important not lose my temper. Somehow we worked it out, more by accident than design I think :eek:

I really hope it works out....good luck!

[larri]

Es - I backed her myself this time last year then turned her away for the winter - she was an angel to back . She went down to Turville to further her education this autumn as they have many years experience with Lusitano's and are brilliant clasical riders and trainers- they had the facilities and the knowledge to bring her on.

I spent every weekend down there watching her being worked and had progress reports during the week too. There were a couple of occaisions when she really threw a wobbly with them at the beginning, but they worked her through the strops and she went very very well. The last week she was there though she started getting testy again and she had a major mare one day and kicked out so hard she hit her legs on the top fence of the school. But she came away from there working in a lovely soft outline in walk trot and canter, established lateral work and jumping small fences - couldn't have asked for more!
She has always been incredibly dominant - her breeder threw her in with the older geldings and a stallion when she got too big for her boots with the mares at the stud ( aged 8 months!!!) and it's taken a lot of time and patience to get her to lead / stand to be tied / lunge and do in hand work - but she always at least tried to co-operate.

I guess it is just her trying it on with me, trying to re assert herself and seeing me as a bit of an easy target. - So I'll stick to my guns with her. Trouble is I've hurt my neck and back so much after last night I can't see me be able to ride her for about a week...lots of groundwork here we come! ( but no loose schooling;)

[cvb]

Larri

May be she's never really been pushed before ? My mare is as sweet as pie, but gets in a strop if you push her and she's not sure she can do it. Maybe she's strong but her confidence does not match the rest of her yet ? (Strong plus insecure almost always means bolshie - I should know as I'm a strong character who has her insecure moments :) )

I learnt the hard way when I was doing some ground work, going sideways along a wall, and asked for too much too soon. She lashed out with a hind leg in temper (not aiming at me, specifically - I just happened to be in the way :eek: ) and I ended up winded against the wall of the school feeling similar emotions to yours.

BUT - when I sat and thought it through, I realised it was largely due to me, not her. I hadn't listened enough to her saying it was too hard - she asked at Level 1 and I didn't get the message, so she ended up asking at level 4 and boy did I get the message !

So the short answer is that I do agree with the others that you need to be the 'leader' in the relationship. But as a leader you also need to listen. The challenge with these strong mares is that they can and will escalate to Level 4 pressure to get their message through to us !

Remember she has just had a very steep learning curve and is only a baby. She may actually be fitter than she can cope with mentally.

p.s. also recommend Klaus Hempfling's Dancing with Horses for the loose schooling stuff. If he can do it with stallions, then stroppy mares are worth a try too !

[Mehitabel]

Remember she has just had a very steep learning curve and is only a baby. She may actually be fitter than she can cope with mentally.



cvb took the words right out of my mouth here. it's something ive seen a few times with talented horses who have been brought on a bit faster than they could mentally cope with.

Maybe she's strong but her confidence does not match the rest of her yet ? (Strong plus insecure almost always means bolshie

especially if she's always been dominant. she accepted it (grudgingly by the sounds of it?) for the trainers and now she is back on home ground she is feeling more secure so telling you in no uncertain terms that she isn't terribly happy.

[Lgd]

Does sound like an element of stroppy teenager. I always noticed this with the girls when they were growing.

Peri was always ladylike about it and would just neatly sit behind the leg and not go forward, when ridden. She was never pushy and has always respected personal space - I showed her in hand as a 2 and 3yo so her ground manners were always good.

Tavia, on the other hand :rolleyes: was just like Safi. I will confess to several instances of having to run her into the school wall to stop in canter and she was the absolute mistress of the '180 degree whip round and bog off up the school' scenario. She had Claire in tears on numerous occasions and I had a few hairy moments with her as well, although my height/weight was a distinct advantage. She could also be very pushy in the stable and on one less than auspicious occasion gave Claire a very fat wrist by squashing her against the partition - for the crime of trying to tidy her mane up. Fortunately she hates being shouted at so a loud growl usually moves her away. There was a lot of growling for a few months! She was very bargey being led to and from the field so we nipped that one in the bud by leading her in her bridle. It is mainly a case of grin (or cry) and bear it. If you haven't done so already, it may be worth getting her back and teeth checked. Back, as all the recent extra work may just have made her a bit sore., and teeth as she is the right age to be teething. Tavia was an absolute monster when she had caps coming off her molars. Peri, bless her little cotton ones, never gave me a days bother :D

[bevy]

I agree with LGD try having her teeth done, we have a lovely mare who has a sweet temperament, but started getting a bit bolshy and unco-operative on 1 rein. I have a really great dentist who came out and found that she had some really sharp hooks on her right and they had been affecting her.
I know you said you turned her away after beaking, why not give her a couple of months off again, to let the newly learnt stuff sink in, and give you a break from the fights as well.
Good luck. And yes I have had the same scenario - hunting for my glasses in the school - I can't see a thing when I'm not wearing them!!!!!!

[Yann]

Sorry to hear things are so hard at the moment, especially as you were probably really looking forward to working with your beautifully schooled horsey:(

I don't have much experience of these things but could it be as simple as the fact that going away to be schooled was a massively stressful thing for her? If you are pretty much all she's ever known, then she's sent away and made to work very hard it will have been very unsetttling. On top of that you're at a new yard too. Maybe all you need is some time to let her settle again?
I'm sure everything will be fine:)

Don't beat yourself up about losing your temper with her either, I'm sure if we're honest we've all been there, and how anyone feels after is enough to make up for it.

Good luck.

[Ginger Thing]

I agree with the "terrible teens" opinion, and it's not just the girls either! My lad is a strapping 16.3 and had a phase at about 5 and a half like this.He would spook and spin in the school, and turning out was a nightmare - we have to walk through one field to get to ours,and half way up he would plunge and buck, tear the rope through my hands and take off! I used to swap horses with my OH as I couldn't control him.
A year further on, we've worked through all this and he now really settles to his work, even in strange arenas and windy conditions where he would have a thousand reasons to play up before.I said only the other day "I think he's really starting to grow up now" - I think that they do all go through this,it will get better, honestly!
And many's the time I've been going to sell mine too!But he's still here, lol!

[larri]

It is so fantastic having you lot as a resource....I feel so much better after reading through your opinions and have been able to maybe look on how Safi is behaving in a different light. Thank you!!!!!!

I think I have to stop being selfish and thinking that she's directing it at me personally....well she is but I guess I'm the only person she can tell when she's feeling stressed :rolleyes:

I just went back to a simple lunge session last night - she tried to barge me out of the way once when she decided she didn't want to go over a cross pole so I backed her up the arena growling my head off at her and she didn't put a hoof wrong after that. Did the same again this morning , nice easy lunge session, working on transitions and then did in hand lateral work (which I've done with her since she was a baby as play)...lovely soft eyes, ears pricked, calm & willing, an absolute joy to be with :D :D

Her teeth were done right before she went to Turville, but the back thing might be interesting..when she was sore before (saddle issue!) she bucked and reared -only once thank gawd. She certainly doesn't do that now.

I think I just need to back off her a little, but still ask her for some simple work she can cope with and let her settle in before building up a little at a time...will keep you posted :D

[belle]

Hi!,

I'm sorry that you are having such a bad time with Safi at the moment!

My horse also started to become a bit of a nightmare to ride after she left the yard where she was backed and schooled on a bit. She was 5 at her awkward time, she is off work as she has a hip problem and the time off is really helping our relationship. By the end of our ridden work, M was not as cuddly and affectionate as before. Her evasions were also bolshyness, and broncing me off big stylee.

Safi sounds very much like M, my horses insecurities and nervousness always comes out as bolshyness.

Also I have known to young Luso mares to be difficult to ride, very dominant and wanting their own way. Perhaps its partly in the genes or maybe the training doesnt work as well with mares as geldings and stallions?

I have the Dancing with Horses book and also Perfect Manners by Kelly Marks, both are very good.

Hope things improve with Safi.

[Pixie]

Hi Larri, I'm sure it's just a temporary blip, I don't know about you but whenever I'm feeling a little bit emotionnally challenged Pink seems determined to take advantage of it, I think that mares are that much more perceptive to our moods and emotions than geldings and some use it to their advantage!:rolleyes:
Pink was 7 before she turned a corner and became more even tempered until then she was an absolute wench most of the time and I spent a lot of time in tears and so frustrated that I wandered why I was doing it, but it was so worth sticking with her as she has the upmost respect and trust in me now!:)
Hang in there girl and if you need help just call me and I can try!:D

[Dizzy]

I went through similar torture with Breeze, in her 4th year. I did just as you have decided, I backed off.

Breeze had very strong opinions, and had started to back up fiercley and buck when she had an ojection. And at the time her objections were purely tantrum based. I did exactly as you have, regained respect and obedience on the lunge to start with.

Then I just hacked her out and gave up 'arena' schooling. We still had our 'moments' out hacking, at first with anything she didn't like look, her sides went dead and she backed and fly bucked. I learnt quickly to jump off and lead her past. I never had to lead her twice past anything.

Our biggest challenge was gates, she couldn't understand why she should have to walk towards a closed gate and was very bolshy about it. Backing off my legs and yawing on the bit, then losing her rag completely.

I just got off and taught her inhand - only took about 2 inhand lessons and she'd do it with me me up top. But then we had exactly the same performance closing them. She point blank refused to turn round and shut them. As frustrated as I was, (I really wanted to spank her arse, as I felt she was really taking the mick - yet didn't dare as I knew what she was capable of) I jumped off, taught her inhand, closed the gate and got back on. I only had to do this once!

Breeze is now 6, and is brilliant, she'll have a go at anything, will go anywhere alone, and is good in traffic (another trial we went through).

Don't take it personally, its just phase some mares go through. They do eventually grow out of it :D

So very sorry to read about Kiaya, all the best,

Lesley

[FOXracing_01]

Hi there! I feel awful right now, But i hope everything turns arounds and lightens up again.:). But I m truly sorry.
Good Luck!
FOXracing_01