Should I be concerned?

[chapsi]

Hi.
Merry Christmas to all.

Well, after a good spell of 3 months at the new yard, whereby Pégaso showed great behaviour improvement and settling down, lately his behaviour is unexpectedly giving me some cause for concern, mainly because I don´t know what to make of it. I fear that it might be the tip of the iceberg, the beginning of a downfall!!!
Indeed I might be over reacting, but I don´t think I can handle reverting to the danger he posed to me in the past. I am no longer used to it, it was a traumatising period of my life, emotionally wearing me down, which I thought was done and over with.

To begin with, Pégaso's relationship with other horses is a strange one, as if he was not "normal", doesn´t know how to relate to other animals of his species. He keeps himself to himself, only greets other horses who might be in other adjacent fields over the fence (avoids physical contact). On the same hand, other horses also avoid/ignore him. He is a loner.

To cut it short, this weekend on Sunday, I fetched him from a paddock where he had been with three other mares and a gelding.
As I began to groom him, I noticed that he was uptight and nervous, as his muscles twitched when I touched him, and kept neighing calling out (very unusual). Gradually he became bad tempered and unpatient with me, reverting to his stroppy and threatening behaviour (biting). His mood improved a bit, and then had another display of hiccups. So, I didn´t ride him that day. Until now, I haven´t found an explanation for "hiccups", neither have my trainer and YO.
In the last few days he has been relatively fine (no more hiccups), although now he can get aggressive at the sight of my trainer's stallion. He is becoming antagonistic with this particular stallion (although he is fine with the another one)- so far he has tried to smash his stable twice because the stallion was near him. The stallion is not provoquing him nor replying. He is stabled now in the same stable row on health recovery grounds. It does not look as if Pégaso is afraid of the stallion, on the contrary, he is asserting himself and challenging (so it looks to me).

Yesterday I went in specifically to give him a "Xmas pat and cuddle". From his stable door, he tried to grab hold of my leg twice. A few minutes later, his trainer went into his box, and according to what she said, he launched an attack, ears pinned back and bare teeth, trying to grab her leg (his favourite trick for biting HARD).

As you can imagine, it was Xmas Eve. I drove a long way just to give my horse my love, and in return I came home feeling sad and concerned with his behaviour.

Another thing. He is still destroying his mane. His long wavy mane is gone, so is the top of his tail. He was treated by 2 different reputable horse vets since last February. He was treated against sweet itch, mites, eventual skin fungi and bacteria, he was put on hormones and so far nothing has worked, he keeps rubbing. Where he rubs, the skin turned very hard, covered by thick crusts. A 3rd vet was called, he reckons it´s "psychological".
So, instead of a difficult but beautiful horse, now I have a difficult but baldy, mangy looking one.

I am sad. I am frustrated, but above all concerned.

Our trainer thinks that his behaviour deterioration is because he hates her stallion. But why? I never saw him antagonising so much with another horse before.
As for this skin problem, there are no answers, just that nothing works. He also had blood tests done, all negative results.

[ponytude]

umm he is a gelding or a stallion? I am assuming Gelding but was he properly gelded? I knew someone who had a gelding. The owner before them was sopposed to get him gelded. But really they only did half of the work (The vet) if you get my drift... He was very excitable and sometimes tense but really liked the mares. ??? Could there be something around his stall(If he is in a stall sometimes) that could make him tense. Sorry If I missed half of this from your post as I am typing way to fast cuz its christmas and stuff but is he off his feed? Could there be rodents eating his grain or something? I am probably way off here but hey its worth a shot!


MERRRY CHRISTMAS and good luck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
PONYTUDE

[Cheko]

I'm sorry to read about the problems you're having with your gelding. I used to have a rig (an improperly gelded stallion) who used to exhibit strange behaviour). However, it seems that he's feeling upset and challenged by the stallion. Here, in Gt Britain, we dont usually turn stallions, mares and geldings out together, just mares with geldings and stallions on their own. You seem to have researched his behaviour thoroughly. Could you not try turning him out with just mares or other geldings? May be that would work, or if not, is there any space for him to be turned out on his own but in sight of the other horses? I dont really know what else to suggest. Good luck anyway.

[KarinUS]

Chapsi,

I am sorry to hear that you are having difficulties with Pegaso again!
It's not that unusual for one horse to find a dislike to a specific other horse though.
My friend owns 3 horses: two geldings and one mare.
She already had the grey gedling when she bought the black gelding. Both horses initially showed some signs of dislike/ trying to establish rank. I guess that's normal. What seems unusual though is that after three month of having both horses at her place. the grey gelding settled down and is ignoring her black but the black gelding still hates her grey with a passion.
At this point we are assuming it will always be that way.
The only thing I could think of is to keep the stallion out of sight, so Pegaso doesn't get aggrevated?

He looked so happy in the last pics! I am so sorry you are having a bad spell with him.

[Harry Hobbes]

Chapsi,

Ask your Vet to explain "stereotypic behaviors" (or "stereotypies") to you. Specifically, the Vet needs to explain to you the causes and remedies.

Best regards,
Harry

[FRED]

Chapsi, is a small paddock and field shelter an option you could try out.
I know for sure many horse, even with the most mild temperament can get pretty fed up of their stable, even when a stable is in their best interest in our eyes.

I love watching the horses where I ride, even after some serious hard work like today{2 plus hours worth}, there is so much going on when back in their paddock, its like a jig saw in away trying to understand. But it makes sense when you understand where all the peices go, and the horse are so very happy with their position in the jig saw, even what appears to be the loner.
Many of the horse seem to show displeasure when a horse is led past their stable, the odd bluff attempt at a nip,ears pined back, but nothing more than that, no real anger,it seems like there showing frustration to me.
Thats a real puzzle to me too why he bits, my favourite horse is well know for ear pining and the occasional grinding of teeth if someone overtakes while on a ride, and she will block if a rider lets her, you don't need force to stop her, just a little outwhiting, but never more than that.
Good luck and while its so much easier said, stay calm and in control:)

[catlover_98uk]

Hi
Sorry to hear of your prblems.

I would agree that he may not have been gelded properly and may be a 'rig'.

I know that I had a similar problem with a dominant gelding a couple of years ago, and I tried a product called 'stroppy gelding' its a hormon balancer. There is also one for mares. Perhaps give this a try? Dodson and Horrell manufacture it I believe.

Good luck.

[NZhorserider]

He sounds like he's suffering from major anxiety. Maybe the stallion is a 'threat' to him.

Maybe you could get him a shrink! :D

[LindaAd]

Chapsi, I'm so sorry Pegaso is difficult again, just when you thought everything was solved...

Has there been any change in his surroundings, any change in his food or routine, to make him feel unsettled? Is that stallion new to him?

About the mane, Barney rubbed half his mane off, and a bit of his tail too, when he was kept in a stable after his operation - although he was fairly calm after we gave him a companion, I think it was due to stress, and maybe boredom (he's not the sort who understands about playing with toys) - could this be the same with Chapsi? The vet said it wasn't caused by sweet itch or any sort of parasite. It's all growing back now - he should be fine by the summer.

[Tootsie4U]

Chapsi,

Knowing the basics of your past, Im sure you have, but have you ever had a chiro out to adjust your horse? Has the chiro advised adjusting him on a regular basis?

If he is constantly in pain somehow, or if his pain comes and goes in spurts, his behavior might be explainable.

But, he wouldnt understand the pain and might act out from it in the form of lunging or biting.

Have you discussed the options of any sort of imbalance (mental) that your horse might suffer from?

I feel your frustration. His behavior is so extreme from one day to the next. I just wonder what it could be.

Thinking of you....

[Kerry's Partner]

I think I was probably the first to wonder whether he had sweet itch!!

I think (and you and others will hate this) that you need to get rid of his long mane and tail. I would absolutely HATE anyone who told me I needed to do this to Kerry - HATE with no guarantee of forgiveness in fact.

In my humble opinion - I think, from your descriptions, that he sounds SO lovely. I also, in my humble opinion, think that you are probably dealing with several very different things - not just one thing.

As you will recall, I am not at all an expert in any way at all. BUT, I do respect you so much for your continuing efforts to help him. Kerry does not really relate to any other equines at all (except those she cannot live with all of the time because her home is miles away from those she found she could realate to).

Whilst in other circumstances I would have liked to help her with this "problem", her most immediate priority has been her health. SO, we are dealing with this first and foremost.

I just wonder whether, if you could get him over the problem (which must be driving him mad to need to destroy his mane and tail) causing him to "self-destruct" - you might have a fighting chance to help him with all of the other things!!

Don't give up. You are showing that you are really there for him, all of the time come what may.

Good luck.

Sandra

[chapsi]

Hi everybody.

Me again, after a few eventful days with my horse.
Before that, I ought to clarify a few issues, perhaps I didn´t express myself well enough.

Cheko,
stallions, mares and geldings are not turned out together. They all have separate fields according to age and sex. So far, he used to be turned out on his own, recently with 3 mares and a gelding.

Fred,
Pégaso is turned out every day. Often, he even used to take the initiative to ask to come back in his stable.

Catlover,
Thanks for the tip. I'll chase it.

Karin,
I am sad. Even today I thought about a comment you made months ago, how nice it was to feel DJ's gentle touch caressing your hair. I suppose I'll never be able to feel my horse's caresses on my hair or face. I feel so cross about the man you dared to sell me a dangerous horse, without a care in the world. He ruined my life´s dream of having a sweet, affectionate horse.

Linda,
I am discussing throughly his behaviour with our trainer. I am very concerned. So far, we identified 2 possible causes, new added elements to his horse world: the closeness of her stallion (being put on rest box near his), and the fact that he has been turned out in a paddock with mares and a gelding (we sense that so many mares around him is upsetting him).
As regards his mane and tail, 2 out of the 3 vets I spoke to, suggested that in case no medication worked, it was down to psychological factors (a vice, they called it). We now put an anti-weave gate on his stable to avoid him rubbing more.

Tootsie,
Chiropractors are out of question. Simply, there aren´t any horse ones here in the country, only humans (which come from the USA or Canada, by the way). I wish there were.
As for a sort of mental unbalance, it´s a point which I have considered before and still do. But how to address such an aspect? How to treat it? I was an abused horse, and the mental scars will remain forever.

Sandra,
Thanks. Don't worry, I've also considered shaving off his tail and mane. His is a self-destructive behaviour.
I know it´s an absurd, but right now, under the circunstances, I feel as if this horse was premeditating "yeh, I'll destroy what you find most wonderful about me!".

In short, since my last post, unfortunately his agressive behaviour continued to escalate. He is now attempting to bite us, no matter who or whenever he can.
Yesterday he suceeded to bite my trainer's fiancee (our farrier) in the paddock. The poor guy went in to assist me (after Pégaso had shown that he did not want to leave the mares), and although he seemed to allow him to approach (but I told him that Pégaso told me "no"), he then bit as fast as he could and proceed to gallop around the paddock (bite and run, he is master on this).
Today Gina (our trainer) was unable to give him his injection, due to his behaviour. As he tried to bite her, she slapped him on the chest, and then he retalliated more vigorously, bare teeth, very nasty looking. Gina resorted to biting his nose, a very unwise and dangerous thing for her, as she could have lost her nose, or ear, had he bit her then. She was lucky, though.

Definately there must be something causing him such an upheavel, as he did improve considerably over the last 3 months. We can only think of
a) her stallion closeness disturbs him;
b) being turned out with mares; both issues that have to do with being a rig/having an hormonal unbalance;
c) because he has had "hiccups"/thumps on two occasions, according to Viv, this is a symptom of lack of magnesium, which can also be accompanied by bad temper and spookyness symptoms (all familiar to Pégaso). So, fingers crossed, this might be a cause!!! Soon I'll be able to tell.

So, we are trying to sort this out. I am searching the market for a magnesium compound, and Pégaso will be turned out on his own , or together with other geldings (no more mares, I'm afraid)as from now.

Having said that, he is reaching a very good training standard right now, he is looking gorgeous, so collected, gaits to die for, and very responsive (mind you, I have to ride with spurs, their presence help).
Today I went for a 10 minute hack out in the woods with Gina's sister. This was a step forward for me. Mind you, I was worried, Pégaso kept cheewing his bit, a sign that he is attempting to put his tongue over the bit (since I put him on a mullen pelham, he does this... and suceeds... then he spices up a bit our lessons)

[ponytude]

I seriously have never heard of a horse having hiccups.

[chapsi]

It is rare. "Hiccups", according to information provided by another NR member, is actually called "thumps", which results from an electrolytes unbalance, such as magnesium and calcium.

[LindaAd]

He is a lucky horse, to have such a loving and determined owner, Chapsi; I'm glad he's giving you wonderful rides to make it all worth it.... It really sounds as if you are the track of his problems now. Will you get the vet to check and see if he is a rig?

[Dizzy]

www.petalia.com.au/Templates/StoryTemplate_Process.cfm?specie=Horse&story_no=1032#ct-10

Chapsi sorry to hear about your problems. I was nosing around the other day, and remembered seeing these supplements - they sound similar to what you're looking for.

I've tried to find an easy root in, but failed:(

Click 'horses' on the top tool bar, and type Karma Power in the quick search. You should get an index that includes Karma Powder, and Nervousness Behaviour in horses. Have a look at both.

There is also a supplement called Sootha, that may be of help.

Hope you find a solution soon.

All the best.

[Lgd]

The easiest way to get magnesium is to get some Epsom salts, which are actually Magnesium Sulphate. You need to feed only a small amount - about 10ml volume (too much will give the horse diarrhoea) - it is also the cheapest!

[chapsi]

Thanks for the feedback on the magnesium sources.
I don´t think I'll test him to confirm wether or not he is a rig. Such testing is awfully expensive, the analysis of the blood has to be conducted in the UK or France (no labs do those analysis here), the blood sent by Express Courier Service, not to mention that the vet would have to come various days, at diferent times of the day, in order to take the blood samples off.
My own vet reckons it's pointless, due to the costs involved and the hassle to get it done (he is a very 'down to Earth' man). He could do an hormonal treatment or a mild sedation treatment according to my vet, perhaps starting by the latter.
I suppose that when you end up unwillingly with a rig, you'll have to learn to live with it, to read his mood swings and pray for the best.

Happy New Year guys.

[LindaAd]

Are rigs actually harder to handle than stallions? Or is it just that people expect them to behave like geldings? Chapsi, would you treat Pegaso any differently if you knew he was a stallion?

[tubby]

Yes rigs are more of a problem . While stallions aren't really suitable for a novice there behaviour is predictable in so far as you'll get the same reaction to things most of the time. A stallion may be more bolshy & biting is stallionish behaviour . A rig tends to be unpredictable & while not all are dangerous they have a tendancy to do very odd things for no apparent reason. I had one years ago , he tried to savage the dog ,if the dog hadn't managed to get under the fence he wiould have killed it. He also used to bolt & in fact would run through a hedge . There was never any reason for his behaviour & he was most unsafe.

[chapsi]

Linda,
If Pégaso was a stallion, I wouldn´t have bought him in the first place.
Although many Lusitano stallions are wonderful companions and rides, I wouldn´t be prepared to take the chance.

Ending up with a rig (we don´t know for sure, that´s just my 'gut feeling') is a difficult fact to handle. One cannot relax with the horse. I don´t think I ever will. I guess, eventually we'll reach a platform of understanding.
But, if so, it´s not his fault. So far, I even suspect that he was castrated in cold blood. I'm afraid many horses don´t get a fair treatment in the country...

[Peace]

Oh, dear.:( But it sounds like you have Pegaso in exactly the right place, with people who are trying hard to solve his problems. And Gina must be quite a character!:D That was very bold of her, to bite Pegaso back. She sounds like a woman who doesn't put up with any nonsense. :)

I'm glad to hear he's improved so much under saddle. I bet y'all will be able to overcome his ground problems as well, in time.

[OlavS]

Well, Pégasinho is back on his own at turnout time. His aggression is decreasing, so definately the mares were one of the causes for his recent "bad temper" outbreaks. Basically, he felt they were his and resented us for taking him away from them.
He is still in a bad mood, but so far he hasn´t attempted to bite people as last week. He is much calmer now. So, no more "girls" I'm afraid...

Mind you, he still tried to smash his stable wall at the sight of his "rival", and everytime a mare went by, he kept calling out.

He is getting a pleasure to ride, so collected, fabulous gaits, and responding well to what I am asking (even without the presence of the instructor). Today we went out again for a 5 minute walk, Gina on foot. He even saw his friends (mares) arriving from their hack at a distance, and didn't tank off to greet them.
The only snag, since I put him on a mullen pelham, he manages to put his tongue over the bit.

[OlavS]

Sorry, it´s me Chapsi. It was me just before too.
It´s just that Olav logged in as well from my computer.

[Turns]

I recently read a book by Michael Peace who is based in the UK and is well known for his work with problem horses. Perhaps you could send him an email and ask for suggestions. I am pretty sure he has a website, maybe a behaviouralist could help.

[Bebe]

Chapsi

Did you manage to get hold of some Magnesium? My mare has it at the moment and it has definitely had a calming effect on her (she was always lovely to handle but in winter she was way too lively to be a safe ride even when turned out lots). If you haven't found any, Equimins and Global Herbs both do products now (Serenity and MagCalm) that you can order on-line and should be able to be shipped to you.

I'm glad he's less aggressive now that he's back on his usual routine. It definitely does sound like he was incredibly unhappy with his living arrangements for a while. I can understand to some degree as Bebe became very aggressive when she was at a yard with no turnout (I know that you provided turnout for your guy but this was what caused Bebe to become upset). She would lunge, threaten to kick, bite and her favourite was to stand at the back of her stable then launch herself at the door in an attempt to bite whoever was at the other side, which was usually the pony in the next stable. She also started doing a strange combination of box walking and weaving, she'd walk a half circuit of her stable and then weave for a second, then repeat. Within a week of being on a yard with lots of turnout she went back to her usual lovely self though the box walking thing still lurks in the background but she might do it for 1 minute every couple of months now. I think that a lot of horses probably feel like this if they're kept in a way that doesn't fully agree with them, but there's only a few that will show it so fully as Bebe and Pegaso.

Hope things continue to improve for you both.

[chapsi]

Bebe,

thanks for your information on calming supplements. I managed to get hold of magnesium, a compound from a german company, that costed me a typical german price (i.e. an arm and a leg).
Very gradually, Pégaso is going back to his usual self, although he still cannot be trusted completely, as regards having me for breakfast.
We are turning him out on his own, but since he was with the mares at the same paddock, he now calls out, or does a lovely performance of stalliony piaffe and purrs whenever a mare is moved in the yard.
Vet wants to do an hormonal treatment next April (feminine hormones). Hope the magnesium works, as I don´t fancy this solution...

On the riding side, he has re-discover the joys of spookying at his own shadow in the arena and napping or backing as fast as he can (nearly fell back with his trainer a few days ago).

Just like your horse, in the past he was a profoundly unhappy and frustrated horse (no turnout, living in a riding school) until I moved him into this other nice yard. His behaviour improved a great deal (although not as much as I would have liked) until this mare business. This latest outburst of aggression was not due to unhappyness, on the contrary; he was too fulll of himself to allow us to remove him from the mares paddock in order to be handled or ridden.

We also started to do Kelly Mark's foundation ground exercises, luckily we had the good sense of putting a muzzle on him, as he attacked us full blow that afternoon.

These days, I would definately feel more safe if he wore a muzzle, but I am resisting the idea, or he would never trust me. A muzzle would not address the source of the problem, would be just a deterent.

[chapsi]

Just one more thing. We had a lunch at the yard today. One of the guests was a vet, whom I told I was vegetarian on ethical grounds.
Later, after meeting my horse and being informed that he was a biter, his advice was
"to eat some blood dripping steaks and then to give my horse a few good wallops!"

This is the attitude we get in this country from our traditional horse people.:(

[haribo]

hi chapsi

you poor thing all this worry, i'm new to this site, and am only going off your last post, many geldings do tend to start acting like a stallion even if not, it doesn't necessary mean hes a rig, i had a gelding who couldn't be mixed with mares, he would start with the odd behaviour problem and they become totally stupid, he would become very nasty especially to other geldings whilst mares were around. when moving my gelding to a new yard i would find that he was fine for a week or two, but he would then become attached to any mare and inseparable.

Have you tried keeping he only with other geldings ??? Also i found my gelding's mane getting shorter day by day, i though it might of been sweet itch, but then once when fetching him in, i found one mare chewing it, she'd almost given him a skin head.

hope this helps