Anyone know how much £ and how often Wintec's need flocking - and do Cair ones ever?

[DITZ]

I have an 18 month old Wintec with flocking and was wondering if it needed reflocking and if so any ideas how much it costs. It seems to have dropped andI am on a narrow gauge so cant change the gullet unfortunately.

And also, the CAIR ones? Do they need the cair equivalent of flocking? Not sure what, if anything, that might be! A bicycle pump?

I had the saddler out in the summer to re check it and she didnt mention anything.

I am thinking that if it does need reflocking and the cair one doesnt I may trade it in as it could save money in the long run.

[Jay.o]

I was told by my saddler, whom I dont trust her judgement on saddle fit, that a wintec cant be reflocked.
Something to do with the material the upper is made of - the synthetic material. It doesnt stretch and/or something.
I am hoping to sell my wintec and get a bareback pad and save up for a treeless then - best thing for a youngster in my opinion, ever changing shape and all.

Anyway, sorry - i havent really helped at all.
But in the book I have, apparently the cair ones can be reflocked. The saddler either puts in new air pockets or shuffles them aobut a bit inside.

[Yann]

As far as I know a saddle should be reflocked annually though this will depend on lots of things, not least the state of the flocking and how much use the saddle has had.

I would be rather surprised if the wintec couldn't be restuffed, that sounds a bit worrying to me, not heard that before.

With the Cair I think it's a case of checking and adjusting the inflation of the panels, I suppose it's a restuffing of sorts, just involves air instead?:D

[Shady_Indigo]

I have a wintec 2000 that i've had for about 3 years and it that time its had to be reflocked once. The CAIR panel model...im not entirely sure but i imagine it would just involve reinflating the panels the required amount.

[virtuallyhorses]

Lots of questions here so I'll try to answer them one at a time - I own a cair Wintec 2000 GP.

1. Any saddle should be reflocked only as needed. That means anything from every 6mths to 6 years as it is entirely dependent upon the saddle+flocking (type)+horse. Don't reflock just because a certain amount of time has passed - remember that flocked saddles need to settle and so if you reflock to often you are actually creating a saddle that for a short time 'doesn't fit' until the flocking settles correctly.

2. There's nothing special about Wintec material that stops them from being repacked - its just a synthetic material. Sounds like you are right to be suspicious of your saddler.

3. If you have a CAIR filled saddle - there is no need to 'repack' - the airbags don't deflate over time. They are sealed units - it is not possible to adjust them either. I've you were to ever puncture one I think you'd have to contact Bates for replacements and probably have a major job replacing it in the panel.

However, if your horse's shape changes to such a degree that the cair panels can't cope a good saddlefitter can put wool flocking into a CAIR saddle to make it sit correctly as required. I've had this done and it works well - the flocking is put on top i.e. on the riders side of the cair panels so that the air panels still work on the horses back. The instructions for this come with a new cair saddle.

My only words of warning for adding flocking to cair - do get a saddlefitter who repacks onsite - I hate the ones who take them away anyway but particularly with cair. Do get a good saddlefitter\saddler - cair's a bit more tricky than packing a 'normally' flocked saddle because it'll move around.

Can't help you with the cost - I pay $55 for a callout\consultation + $80 for a full repack onsite, which includes watching me ride pre and post pack to see how the saddle performs - so I guess that's around 40 pounds??

[Zingy]

I thought Cair saddles had wool flocking as well, not just the air bags, therefore they are reflocked in the same way as 'normal' saddles. The air bags are designed to be left alone, unlike Flair where the reflocking is done by adjusting the amount of air in the bags.

I have been told by saddlers that Wintec are a nightmare to reflock because they are designed slightly differently to other saddles, bu it is not impossible!

In terms of cost, my saddler reflocks saddles for free that have been bought from him. However, that is me taking the saddle to him, not him coming out. Not sure how much that would be as I've never done it.

[maverick927]

CAIR saddles have no flocking, just air panels which do not deflate. I have had my CAIR saddle for nearly three years and it was one of the best purchases I have ever made.

Wintecs can be reflocked as I had my old one done without a problem.

[DITZ]

so it sounds like it could be worth investing in a cair one then by the sounds of it?

[tubby]

I have a friend who has cair panels & she has the saddler out every 12mths to check & adjust as neccessary. She was told this was essential when she bought it.

[DITZ]

I phoned the saddler to book her to come out and see him. I explained the problem - that the saddle was sliding forwards and therefore dropping onto his withers and rubbing them and she suggested a wider gullet? Surely that would only compound the problem?

[virtuallyhorses]

Originally posted by tubby
I have a friend who has cair panels & she has the saddler out every 12mths to check & adjust as neccessary. She was told this was essential when she bought it.

I think you might find that's FLAIR.

CAIR cannot be adjusted in any way shape or form. CAIR are sealed airbags - two in each panel. If a saddler is saying that they are 'adjusting' CAIR bags they're conning you. For a start you cannot get in to do anything to them without completely pulling the saddle apart.

To put flocking into a CAIR saddle they have slits the length of the panels to allow a saddler to pack and adjust any wool flocking with their packing tools - but these don't allow them to do anything with the CAIR bags. I'll take some photos of mine to illustrate if you like :)

[JaniceH]

I just looked on the Wintec Website www.wintec.net.au and it had the following to say on CAIR:


CAIR air panels hold their shape unlike traditional stuffing which will, over time, ride down and become unevenly compacted.
CAIR air panels do not need adjustment or special maintenance and require no re-stuffing.
CAIR air panels constantly adapt to your horse's shape as the back and shoulder muscles work.


and had this to say about their ordinary saddles:


In order to keep the saddle fitting well, you should have the fit of your Wintec saddle checked after 4 to 6 weeks of riding to ensure sufficient clearance is still being provided to the horse's wither.

We recommend riders check the fit of their saddles after 3 months and then every 6 months throughout their saddles life, to ensure the saddle continues to fit correctly as the horse changes shape according to its level of fitness.

If the saddle comes too close to the wither, the panel should be inspected to see whether the best alternative is to either add more wool to the front of the saddle or fit a slightly narrower gullet plate. In general we would advise the fitting of a narrow gullet plate, providing there is still ample resilience and depth in the wool panel, so the closest fit to the horse's back is maintained.

When the saddles are restuffed, care should be taken not to over-stuff the panels as in most cases this will cause an incorrect fit on the horse and improper weight distribution. It is a far better alternative to fill the panel back to approximately its original stuffed shape and lift the front of the saddle through the fitting of one of our fractional fit gullets as required.

Through the use of the Easy Change Gullet System and Wool Repacking a Wintec saddle can be custom fitted to your horse's back. Wintec recommend that a qualified saddle fitter is consulted when buying and fitting a new saddle.

Hope this helps.

[DITZ]

Thanks Janice thats really helpful. I had the saddle checked in the summer, I always have it checked whether it needs it or not - this time it needs it!

Do you know what they mean by their 'fractional fit' gullets?

[Yann]

I think they just mean their gullet plates - ie the next half size?

I would be cautious about that advice though - the stuffing compacting and the horse getting narrower are two different things and there's the risk of causing muscle wastage if you narrow the gullet purely to raise the pommel.

[DITZ]

Thanks Yann, I am on the narrow gullet as it is so I cant see theres anywhere to go there. I was suprised by my saddlers idea of widening the gullet though - does that sound right to you?

[SwiftwindSpirit]

Gemma (Maverick927),
Are you on the Wintec website?!? I just found a comment and picture and I'm sure pretty it's you! :D (near the bottom of the page). That's so cool! :)

http://www.cairpanelsystem.com/peopleWhoCair/index.html

I have also been wondering what the "better choice" would be if I ever got a saddle. I've been looking towards Wintecs, and couldn't decided which was better, flocked or CAIR. I think I've made up my mind now, and I'd prefer to go with CAIR.

Here's a page on it for anyone interested:

http://www.cairpanelsystem.com/

(it's from the Wintec Website).

[virtuallyhorses]

Originally posted by SwiftwindSpirit
Gemma (Maverick927),
Are you on the Wintec website?!? I just found a comment and picture and I'm sure pretty it's you! :D (near the bottom of the page). That's so cool! :)

http://www.cairpanelsystem.com/peopleWhoCair/index.html

...

and that's me just above :D

[Zingy]

Originally posted by DITZ
I was suprised by my saddlers idea of widening the gullet though - does that sound right to you?

Posssibly! The problem may be caused by the narrow gullet being too narrow, so your saddle is shifting to the narrowest part of the horse. A wider gullet may allow it to stay back more. Not sure if it works in practice though!

The thing with narrow, high withers (assuming this is the problem you are working with) is that you normally need a wider gullet than you think. Few horses, if any, are 'narrow'. The key to fitting saddles to them is to have a gullet that does not pinch and allows plenty of room for muscle development. The other thing to avoid is to stuff the saddle to give higher wither clearance if this results in the saddle touching either side of the withers. This again causes pinching and believe me, gives more problems than it solves! The fit of the saddle should come lower down on the more muscled areas.

I'd be inclined to have a discussion with your saddler over use of numnahs and corrector pads. The Korrector made by Flair is fantastic for things like this. You need to start off with a saddle that basically fits, but rather than narrowing the gullet to give you wither clearance you use pads under the saddle to help raise it off the withers. Having said that, avoid riser pads that have 2 distinct levels as this causes pressure points. The Korrector allows you to adjust the amount of air in front and back bags therefore adjusting both clearance and front/ back balance. First thing to check though before going down this route is that your saddle is a good basic fit.

Apologies for the essay :o :D

[SwiftwindSpirit]

Originally posted by virtuallyhorses
and that's me just above :D

Before I saw Gemma's comment on the website, I thought the comment by "Vivien" could have possibly been you (I always think something may be by someone I "know"). That's SO cool! :D Your horse looks like he has improved so much! Great muscle tone! :)

[DITZ]

zingy, thanks for your advice and help. I had a little play today and tried moving it right forwards with the help of a breaststrap but still rubbed. The only thing that clears it is to pull it right back and I have a barnsby grip pad which makes it stay in place. It looked and felt fine to me but YO thought it was too far back and would hinder my position in jumping. Still at least I can hack out whilst we wait for the saddlers visit. I do have the narrow/medium gullet too and I will let her try that if she thinks its necessary although I am sure she will measure him first. He is your standard high withered TB who changes shape this time of the year. I didnt have this problem last year but he is in better shape than last so maybe a wider one is the answer. That said, I didnt have this problem in the summer when he was wider still.

[tubby]

Virt horse you're probly right it was an ordinary saddle that she had altered to "air" of some sort, would that be it??

[Yann]

Zingy, couldn't have put it better myself, too many saddlers only seem to look at wither clearance and not width of fit, which should always follow the angle of the shoulder below the saddle points. Anything else is likely to cause pinching and muscle wastage with deep hollows under the wither, many high withered horses end up this way.

There's an excellent little booklet available in the Allen Photographic Guide Series on saddle fitting by Kay Humphries which is a very useful reference and will give you and idea what to look for.

As far as placement goes the Saddle should always sit a fingers width behind the back of the shoulder blade, again a lot of people seem to put it on further forward, I kept getting told I was putting it too far back at the riding school:rolleyes:

[Lgd]

Ordinary Wintecs can be reflocked - had my dressage one done. The CAIR system has flock as well as the air bags, so some adjustment can be made with wool flocking.

OTOH I m not keen on the CAIR system as it is not adjustable other than in the gullet and I've also seen some problems with them, although one of my trainers has the system in her Caprilli saddle and loves it. If I really wanted an air bag system I would go for Flair - having said that Peri objects rather strenuously to the air flock idea. She was awful in both systems , although far more vehement about the CAIR. She is fine with the KOrrector pad, as long as you only use the front pair of bags. Having discussed this with the Flair people, they freely admitted that some horses are not suited to the system and they had come across others like Peri.

I would also be careful of falling into the high wither = narrow horse trap. Peri has TB withers and looks quite fine, but she wears a wide fitting saddle - Barnsby 3½ tree (they go up to a 5)but the saddle had to be custom made to accommodate her wide flat back and barrel so it actually fits more like a 4 (she is too wide for any of the trees Stubben produce!)

[DITZ]

yes I can see what you mean. I think I may try the wider gullet as I have it and see what difference it makes. I'll still get the saddler out anyway but its looking like a fortnight now before she can get out so I may as well see if I can alleviate some of the pressure myself. If not I'll just have to carry on riding with the saddle pushed back.

[DITZ]

Lgd - can you remember how much it cost you to have yours reflocked?

[virtuallyhorses]

Completely agree on the high wither\gullet size comments - mine is very high and currently in Xtra-wide gullet - this is a real b*gger as you do a tightrope walk to make sure that there is enough clearance for the wither and may have to add height with pads (which must not change the balance of the saddle) - but that's life with a TB ;)

[Lgd]

It cost me £25 for the reflock. My saddle fitter was out fitting another horse so she templated the horse and took them back to the saddler. I didn't get charged for that, although if she'd had to make a separate trip there would have been a charge - think her call-out fee is either £20 or £25

[DITZ]

i agree in principle with this theory but could anyone explain to me why i didnt have any problems during the summer when he was wider? I had the saddler out in the summer as i though that given he had put on some weight it would be worth checking. I am completely ignorant in these matters so will always call the saddler out if I am not sure. She measured him and he was still a narrow. Does a wider gullet not correspond to a wider horse then?

[DITZ]

It wasnt it. Back to the drawing board for me.:(

[Yann]

How was her measured / checked? The width of the saddle ie. the angle of the tree should be taken from the horse below the tree points, not off the wither. The angle of the saddle and the continuation down the shoulder should be parallel. If the saddle is at a steeper angle it is too narrow.

If your horse has hollow areas under the wither caused by muscle wastage, ie a concave profile rather than a straight or convex one, then a saddle with the correct tree width will most likely not clear his wither. You would need to use a riser pad to achieve this. I would guess that there aren't that many horses around that truly take a narrow gullet, what build is your horse?

[Zingy]

If I am correct, (and never having used one I don't know if I am), doesn't wintecs gauge measure withers only? Hence as Yann said, it is measuring the wrong bit. When your horse was fatter in the summer, again it depends which bit was fatter. A huge 9 months pregnant look probably won't alter the saddle fit, you'll just need a bigger girth. A broader back will alter the fit to some extent, but may not cause many problems. What you could be experiencing now (and I'm purely guessing), is that if there is more muscle being put down this will alter saddle fit dramatically, particularly if the muscle is around the shoulder/ wither area, as this is where you have most problems with a tb saddle fit.

Having talked to a number of saddlers on issues with high withers, all of them have said they never ever fit narrow trees - such horses simply do not exist. Your horse may be the exception to the rule, but if you can I would strongly advise you to get a second opinion on your saddle and your horses 'narrowness'.

The other thing to remember is that wintec saddles, although they are adjustable, they do not fit every horse. I have a wintec isabel dressage saddle that fits well with a prolite pad under it. It is essentially level, just needs extra padding to clear his withers. There is no way though I could get any of the other wintecs to fit - tried the 500, 2000, dressage pro and none of them were the right shape. Using a medium gullet they sat too low over his withers, but still tipped backwards. To level the saddle out would have taken a wide gullet but would have then sat on his withers, and that was before I got on board!

[Tootsie4U]

A wintec CAN be reflocked - mine was. About a year ago, and I think its still good. I think Bon thinks so too. Of course neither one of us are saddlers.

To have my wintec adjusted, reflocked, and fitted cost me $65 - the best $65 ever spent in my opinion.

Dont know of anyone having the Cair near me but I have heard that if the chamber pops, the saddles done for. Thats hear say, no idea if there's truth in it at all.

The interchangeable gullet affects the fit near the shoulder. You'd have to have the saddle reflocked to make sure the fit on the back is correct. If its lean in the flocking, the saddle could be hitting the spine. The saddler would need to add stuffing to stop that. If there is too much flocking, it could be perching the saddle, allowing it to rock up and down, affecting balance. A test you can do is drop a round pen, stick, whatever in the seat and look to see where it rests. Too far back near the cantle? Too far forward near the pommel? Or right in the center where its supposed to be?

Toots

[Yann]

It's a while since I sold it but as I remember it the gullet gauge is large enough to get a true reading on most horses. I had a local saddler come to fit my Wintec 2000 to my share horse and he told me it needed a medium plate in it (took him about a minute to fit the saddle...). This made it the same width as his existing saddle which I had doubts about. When I got a gauge and tried it on him it said wide straight away, so I think they work.

I agree about the fit not suiting all horses, it was hopeless on Rio (not wide enough and bridging) but looked great on the heavy hunter of the woman I sold it to, a good fit all round to my eye at least. I always worried a bit about the narrowness at the back of the gullet with a wide or extra wide plate in, it doesn't seem quite wide enough.

[DITZ]

Thanks all, I have put the next size in, ie, narrow med but not tested it yet (its ****ing it down here and gale force winds!) so I'll have a go this evening.

His shape is exactly as Yann described, concave on either size of the withers. He always has been but maybe he has put more muscle on that I've given him credit for and could do with a wider fit. Its a case of experimenting I think until saddler (who has still not come back to me with appointment) comes over.

It has always been a great fit before so something has changed in his shape.

Tootsie - I LOVE that idea of testing the balance with a pen what a fabulous and simple idea!

Will report tomorrow!!

[Yann]

If he has muscle wastage caused by a pinching saddle, which it sounds like he does, you ought to consider tackling the problem as sorting it will transform his way of going and attitude to work.

I would suggest he is more likely a wide than a medium narrow. As described above you need to base the saddle width on the angle below the saddle points, not the wither and use an adjustable wither pad to make up the difference and allow his muscle to recover. Which part of the country are you in? It sounds like you could do with a new saddle fitter. This is a very common problem and often missed by supposedly competent saddlers.

[DITZ]

Yann I would LOVE! a new saddler but everyone I've asked seems to refer me back to this one eventually. I looked in the yellow pages tonight and behold the only listing was her! It seems were fated! I phoned her again this evening and unfortunately its going to be next week at least before she can get out, as yet I havent been able to get an appointment.

As for wither/gel pads I specifically asked saddler if he needed one and she told me no.

I tried the n/m gullet tonight but it made a worse mess than the narrow. Do you think its worth trying the med gullet or not? It seems to me that the point it is rubbing is under the pommel about an inch and a half in and on the right hand side. It definitely feels slightly tighter on the right.

I'm so frustrated, nothing I try seems to work and I just cant understand where I'm going wrong. THe only exercise I've been able to give him is a 10 minute hack which is simply to experiment with these different pads/plates etc.

[virtuallyhorses]

The simple test I usually perform is to put the saddle on and then use my hands or two rulers (these are clearer if you're doing this for the first time) to show the angle of the gullet and the angle of the shoulder - if the two are converging then the gullet is too narrow, they should be parallel.

The trick here is placement of your hands\rulers. On the saddle you must place your ruler on the angle of the gullet plate i.e. from pommel apex to point NOT running down the front of the panel as you often see, the panel is flexible but the gullet plate is not.

On the horse you must use the angle of the shoulder NOT the angle of the withers which means placing your hand\ruler at the base of the wither usually.

In photos of people checking saddles you usually see the hand going down inside the front panel - but this is NOT where you need to check gullet fit\size and I think these photos often confuse people.Hope that helps a little.

Its only once you know this angle\size that you can then look at - is the saddle itself wide enough\do the panels need repacking (to get that panel fit correct) and do you need more lift in the front to clear the withers.

[Yann]

I don't know where you are in the country but you could try having a look at www.saddlecheck.co.uk website and see if there's anyone listed on there anywhere near you, or contact Vickie at Bettersaddles on the link on the right of the page who might be able to point you in the right direction. The saddlers listed there will definitely be able to help what sounds like a bad situation. They were the only ones I trusted to fit a treed saddle to Rio and I wasn't disapointed with the job that was done.

I really feel for your situation, we put our trust in professionals and it's very difficult to question what they tell us even if things are clearly not going right. The problem is horses can be terribly stoical and put up with a lot of discomfort without complaining.

I must say I'm no expert at all on this subject but have seen the handiwork of saddlers which even I as a novice could see wasn't right and was affecting the horse. I also know first hand what a transformation can take place when a badly fitting saddle is replaced with one that does fit, you will think you are riding a different horse.

Switching to a medium gullet will only be any use if you put a front riser pad under the front of the saddle to keep it off the wither and level the saddle up. You can also fine tune the lift with pieces of gamgee for example. The idea is that over time the muscle will regenerate and the padding can gradually be removed until it isn't required any more. In your case it sounds quite severe and I would definitely get some expert help with it if you can.

Good luck in getting it sorted:)

[DITZ]

Thanks Yann that website was really interesting. Someone has suggested a Korrector pad but I think I'll give that one a miss because a) its potentially a very expensive mistake but more importantly b) I wouldnt be confident of being able to adjust it to fit properly so could do more damage maybe. I'm going to invest in a Wintec front riser pad although someone has also said they're crap I just cant afford to buy expensive things that aren't proven so will start with that and see. If that doesnt work I guess I'll just have to go bareback till saddler comes.

As he's v bony is it possible to ride bareback with a thick numnah on - presumably secured with a surcingle?

[Yann]

It most certainly would, and in the circumstances might well be beneficial. I don't know how much bareback riding you've done in the past but you will find that you're having to concentrate on your balance continuously, which again might be no bad thing. Obviously you are far less secure, and will need to take things steady for his sake too as your weight will be more concentrated on his back. I daresay if he's a bony type you'll need plenty of padding like a folded up blanket:D A neck strap is also a good idea especially if you have to go up and down any steep hills. It's good fun, I did a fair bit waiting for my new saddle to come, but my horse was very fat at the time and it was like riding on a sofa. Doubt it would be the same now:)

[DITZ]

I havent done bareback riding for years and have only done it with him whilst walking from the stable to the field and it was excruciating!!

I doubt whether I'll be doing much bareback but at least I'll be able to take him out for more than 10 mins without his back scuffing again. As he's stabled almost permanently at the moment and facilities don't allow lunging I am getting really stuck!