What are you worth to your horse?

[Tootsie4U]

Would he trade you in for that younger model or that jazzed up posh thing over there?

Sometimes I wonder... :rolleyes:

This thread does have a point :D

Willingness...... are you worth his burden- is he happy to do your work or would he rather see you off on the next train?

Now Bonfire has a wishy washy willingness to him. He'll do what I ask, and he does it well, but he only does enough to get by. There's one thing in particular that Im certain he's playing my buttons. I can ask him to go on the bit, and he will but for only for a few strides. He wont stay there. I am almost certain he is fit enough to handle a bit more than that too ;) Thats the problem. I know you cant force a horse to go on the bit, but how do you convince them when they dont want to but are able to? I have to watch myself, the second I say "good boy" its all over. He takes that as his cue to stop- "she's happy with that, good." Our normal training program now involves me asking, him coming on the bit, him deciding thats enough, so I ask, ask, ask, ask... I dont want to nag, but who's in charge here?

If you know me, you know my goal in this horsey life is to obtain a partnership with my horse where we work as a team. I know Bon likes me and enjoys our time together, but how do I make him want to work?

Weird thread, I know...

[tasha]

I dont think there is a way to ake them *want* to work. You can make them make the decision as to whether they work or nt (e.g. make them go on the bit, leg yield, gallop ec etc) but not make them want to do it. That comes from them. Its the same with us: I hate Maths. I was made to do it at school, but there's no way you could make me *want* to do it!!

As to what do you mean to your horses: dinner, a leader and someone who makes her slow down when she wants to go fast!!

I dont think Kal would trade me in though-from what I have known of her past I am the one of the few of her owners that could hande her and therefore ride her sympathetically.

[Mehitabel]

i am also unsure as to whether you can make them want to work. i think once you're up there you can make it fun - but i know i never wanted to get up and go to school, even if it was fun when i got there. (because i was a bad bad child and had fun at school instead of doing as i was told!)

i really think it's time for you and bon to bite the bullet and get out on the trails - i doubt i'd be terribly enthusiastic about going in the school every time i worked either.

petal will trot over to me when i catch her, open her mouth for the bit and cheerfully march out on hacks, but when we do school, after about 15 minutes when she gets a loose rein to relax she will still sidle over to the gate and stand there expectantly.

i do think it will help him realise that riding is fun, so make him less likely to think about evasions and so on - a bored horse is thinking up tricks! (well, mine is, anyway...) is there someone sensible who has a sensible older horse who could escort you out for a few times first?

[Tootsie4U]

You'd be sending me off to my death wish Es! :D Just kidding, Im waiting for the next snowfall and it will happen!

I certainly dont think you can *make* a horse want to do anything - they can comply out of submission, or out of willingness. My question was more of a - How can you influence them either way. Rhetorical question maybe.... Keeping Bonfire willing is extremely important to me.

Last night I took a Silver1 approach to Bon's training and backed (reverse gear) him over an obstacle course. I could see his reluctance, but he did it. Why?

[Mehitabel]

to influence them to be willing i think you have to

-make it pleasant for them to do as you ask (NB - not the same as making it unpleasant for them not to! both methods have their place, i think, but the first is what i try to use first and foremost)

-make it easy for them. make sure they understand what you ask and that you've led up to it thoroughly so there are no big leaps - just small steps of understanding and progress.

-make sure that, as far as possible, doing as you say never has any unpleasant consequences. for instance, don't insist they go through a mud patch when you don't know what the bottom is like - if they sink or slip it's a black mark against your leadership.

-make it fun! i do insist petal does as she's told in the ring, but i do try to keep it short and sweet, and sneak in the schooling when we are out as she is much mor amenable to it. for example, we have a long straight gravel/earth track we trot down on the way home - i practice my leg yielding, shouldering in and lengthening and collecting down there rather than in the school.

-make sure what you're asking is reasonable. if i am going to insist on obedience (which i am) then i need to be sure i'm asking for reasonable things.

-out of the saddle, be a good person to be around. i do think petal likes being round me - she'll follow me round her field if i am poo picking or hunting for lost fly masks or shoes or whatever, and so on. this goes a long way toward making her willing under saddle. we have lovely grooming sessions (when we itch each other - not brushing) and i do thing we have bonded.
denim, her baby - the one i am just backing - seems to be well on the way as well. she has started following petal to me when i call her and whickering to me when i go past her in the field. she's a cutie!

[tasha]

Originally posted by Tootsie4U
Last night I took a Silver1 approach to Bon's training and backed (reverse gear) him over an obstacle course. I could see his reluctance, but he did it. Why?

Because you are his boss, and you asked him to do it.

[Tootsie4U]

Hee hee tasha, I think you're missing my point. :D

Did he do it out of submission or because he wanted to please mom? They are two very different things in my book.

The word boss does nothing for me, I'd rather be his leader ;) I listen to my boss because I have to just like you listened to your math teacher because you had to. But you listened to the teacher of your favorite school subject because you *wanted* to, didnt you! Big difference! ;)

[Jay.o]

If you want to encourange him to want to work, firstly you have to make it fun!! Hes still young isnt he? And from a few posts, I think he was the one that had a few problems and you managed to work them out. He has already showed her has trust in you by letting you catch him for starters, then he trusts you wont hurt him when being tacked up and tied. He lets you ride him without having a paddy doesnt he?

He has accepted and is willing he is going to work wether he wants to really work or not. Going round a school and being asked to go on the bit all the time or a few times each session, is boring. Its the same routine, same school and same things. Try and get out those ground poles; obstacle courses (like you said); walking through streams and shallow rivers; lead him out in hand on trials.

I have a name at the yard for being slightly mad with mysy. I have been known to ge tthe wheeliebins, cones, road signs (i did return them :D) tarps, and plastic bags tied to sticks. I have got out logs, footballs, mobile phones ringing in a bush and probably a few more. They all think I am mad and have a good lauhg at the things I do. But its not them thats laughing when we go on hacks and i lead Mysy when their horse jumps at a bag and bolts but mysy walks on like its nothing. All these little things give him confidence in himself and you. It gives him mroe things to think about the more things you do. just an example with walking through streams and stuff, when it comes to XC, that water jump will be nearly done - you only have to get him used to jumping into the water, not the water itself.

In a few years time, you dont want the attistude of a borse horse - "Oh, I guess its moorrreee schooling etc." you want something with bounce and emphasis like hes really looking forward to what hes going to do today.

Mysy had a hard life to begin with. she was broken at 2 and race din a trap. She looks to me when shes worried and will 'play' with me. She will do things for me that she wont for others and trusts me that i ownt hurt her. I dont think I would trade her in for the world now, and I hope the feeling's mutral!

Sorry if i have rambled or you disagree with me there :o

[tasha]

He would have definately done it out of submission, Tootsie, otherwise he wouldnt have done it. Whether he also did it because he wanted to please you remains to be seen.

I see what you mean about the word 'boss' but I was using it for want of a better word.

[Mehitabel]

i don't think willingness and submission are mutually excllusive. you do need submission - you can't be guessing whether or not the horse fancies doing as you say.but you can have willing submission or unwilling submission - i think that's the difference toots is talking about. i hope i have willing submission, at least most of the time.

[tasha]

That's what I was trying to say Es in my ham-fisted way! Thanks-you've made it clearer in my head too!

[KarinUS]

I think the more I learn about riding the clearer it becomes to me that I can't just look at one part and neglect looking at the rest. If his hind end isn't engaged he won't come nicely on the bit. You can fake it of course. Train the horse to get the head set right even though there is no roundness in the back, etc.
But what would be the point?

When our work results are not satisfactory I usually look at what I need to improve on myself to make it easier for him to succeed. This system works better for me than to question why he is giving me such a hard time because it leaves the power to change things in my hands.

Of course there are times when it becomes apparent that he is 'taking care of me'. He can be such a wild boy in the field but he knows what my limits are as far as staying on and with me on his back he is still exhuberant but has never gone beyond of what I could easily handle.

I feel we have accomplished more than I had hoped for last year as far as show results go but I wouldn't think less of our relationship, if we had come in last everytime.

[cvb]

There's all sorts of different types of 'leader' in the human world - and loads of books written to describe the types !

Your example of boss vs teacher - I have worked for some inspiring bosses and had some equally uninspiring teachers. I have "followed" people because I respect their knowledge, experience, skills, or because of their personality/charisma, or because of 'hierarchy' (ie because they are my boss and its part of my job).

One thing about the 'inspiring' bosses and teachers - it tends to be because of their own enthusiasm and energy for the subject (and of course they need to communicate clearly - not just the subject but their love and enthusiasm for it !).

So first steps are common language and clear communication - means you need to know what you want to achieve and how to ask for it.

Second is about energy and intent. If you are not 'enthused' about doing something with Bon, can you expect him to be ? So Jay's comments about doing mad things are not just about enthusing the horse, its about enthusing the rider as well
;)

Finally I do think you have to take into account the horse's character.

I'm lucky my mare has an extremely strong work ethic. And my old guy (32 this year) will trot circles etc in the field all by himself ! But the third pony (my mother's Fell pony) has a real attitude problem - mainly related to working in the school. Rider energy and enthusiasm does make a difference - but does not transform him into an energetic beastie :rolleyes: So we just have to recognise and work with the fact that he is, and always will be, a diesel model that needs a long warm up and prefers being off-road :D

[Tootsie4U]

Originally posted by KarinUS
When our work results are not satisfactory I usually look at what I need to improve on myself to make it easier for him to succeed. This system works better for me than to question why he is giving me such a hard time because it leaves the power to change things in my hands.

Ah hah! Inspriation! Extremely well put Karin!

Cvb, you're following up right close with Karin too. I just love this board.

[cvb]

just a quick diversion here - we tend to talk about leadership in the context of our horses, cos its seen as ok to be the leader. But we worry about some of the leadership styles that are less acceptable to us these days (and certainly less acceptable in the work place).

But isn't a lot of this about relationships ? and then doesn't it take us into our human relationships as well ?

I may want partnership with my horse, but I also want partnership with my partner :p

I know its not quite the same thing, as "leadership" in a human partnership can move depending on the situation. But I find an awful lot of parallels !;) If I am not confident taking the leadership with my horse, then is it a big surprise if its the same in my other relationships ?

[Tootsie4U]

A very philosophical thread, isnt it cvb? I know what you mean.

[kelsey]

Lately I hear more and more people worrying about their horse going on the bit too early in the training process. Without forwardness, relaxation and submission, your horse can't work properly in a frame.

As a first step, your horse needs to learn to go willingly forward whenever you ask him, without feeling that he can stop any time he likes. Kyra Kyrklund has a great book and set of tapes that simplifies the mysteries of dressage very well, and which contains a great section (near the beginning) on getting your horse to move off your leg. You certainly shouldn't have to nag at your horse, and her method helps with this problem.

[Tootsie4U]

You'd love this then kelsey - I had someone tell me that its IMPOSSIBLE for the horse to be forward, balanced, round if he's NOT on the bit. Being on the bit is primary to her.

I told her to go ride her own half crippled four year old - I'll deal with my own. (not in those exact words mind you) ;)

Bon will go on the bit on his own, completely unassited by me (otehr than keeping him forward) so I know he's ready for it. I honestly wouldnt care at this point if all we could do is w/t/c around the arena in the most horrible form ever. I just want him accustom to carrying us both and listening to my aids. Roundness and being on the bit is not something I expected from him, but I think he's ready.

[KarinUS]

I think you just answered it yourself:
Bon will go on the bit on his own, completely unassited by me (otehr than keeping him forward)

Being on the bit is the end result of all things working well together, not a method to get things working together.

I think you will be just fine! Don't be a push-over but try to 'be on his side'. Remember partnership is two working on the same goal. Show the same willingness to work with him that you expect him to show you... ;)

[Esther.D]

Sorry Tootsie I'd agree with Es, get him out on those trails..even if very cautiously and with a steady companion at first. All my ponies love hacks/drives and think that schooling is a bit like kids going to school - can be fun and can be dull;) Apart from Polo who is a very strange schooling addict :rolleyes: :D I think he needs a change of scene to make things more exciting...also schooling means he has to concentrate hard so is quite mentally challenging for him. I know you are aware of this and do lots of ground work etc to liven things up and make a change but my youngsters always get lots of hacking as a priority - having no enclosed school is quite handy for me in a funny way as it means I don't have the security of a school even on day one so I don't have the struggle of relinquishing that security. Sounds like Bon is getting on great - so get out there and have fun (even if you never leave walk for months:) )

[kedwards]

Although I strive to be a sympathetic and kind person with animals and people, I try not to get too hung up on worrying about whether Bud did something because "I'm the boss" or because "he wants to please me." It's not that I'm cold about it, but I'm just less concerned about his initial motivation to work than I am in whether he becomes engaged and interested in it once he starts. There's no mistaking it when he is.

I suppose, like people, horses enjoy things that are moderately challenging. Being drilled on simple exercises is dreary and being asked impossible tasks is frustrating. Somewhere in between is that magic place where the lines between work and play are blurred.